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What terminals should be connected on these 2-way speakers? by Patrick
Started on: 10-08-2006 03:00 PM
Replies: 62
Last post by: Patrick on 10-12-2006 04:01 AM
88 Formula
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Report this Post10-10-2006 02:25 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 88 FormulaClick Here to Email 88 FormulaSend a Private Message to 88 FormulaDirect Link to This Post
Patrick,
See my earlier post about capacitors, I'll recap (no pun intended), a cap passes higher freqs better than lower frqs, the value of the cap determines exactly at which freqs this happens, a very small cap may only start passing AC at radio wave frequencies, that's why you'll see a lot of small ceramic (little tan discs) caps in radios. All caps block DC.

Since a cap acts as a high pass filter, it can be used in two different ways in a crossover, if placed in series with the spkr coil, it will block the lows and pass the highs to the spkr (what you want for a tweeter). However, you can also use a cap in parallel with a spkr to bypass the highs so they don't go through the coil (the highs take the easier path through the cap, what you want for a woofer). Hope this helps.
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Report this Post10-10-2006 02:37 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 88 FormulaClick Here to Email 88 FormulaSend a Private Message to 88 FormulaDirect Link to This Post
Patrick,
Another possiblity as to why the tweeters aren't working is, since they are removable, did someone possibly remove them and not put them back with the contacts aligned properly, or have they been sitting around and the contacts corroded a little?
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Report this Post10-10-2006 02:42 AM Click Here to See the Profile for PatrickClick Here to Email PatrickSend a Private Message to PatrickDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by 88 Formula:

Hope this helps.



My brain hurts now.

88 Formula, it would be easier for me if you'd just comment on whether I was correct or completely out to lunch in my last post.

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Report this Post10-10-2006 02:44 AM Click Here to See the Profile for PatrickClick Here to Email PatrickSend a Private Message to PatrickDirect Link to This Post

Patrick

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quote
Originally posted by 88 Formula:

Patrick,
Another possiblity as to why the tweeters aren't working is, since they are removable, did someone possibly remove them and not put them back with the contacts aligned properly, or have they been sitting around and the contacts corroded a little?



I never saw any way for the tweeters to be removed. They seemed to me to be an integral part of the main speaker. I tried to find something about this on the 'net earlier today, but to no avail.

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Report this Post10-10-2006 03:06 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 88 FormulaClick Here to Email 88 FormulaSend a Private Message to 88 FormulaDirect Link to This Post
Patrick,
I can't tell from the pics whether the cap is in series or parallel. Can't see which spkr wires are going to which terminal. Terminal may have a wire underneath or just be a connection point to solder components to. Pictures I saw of the tweeters removed looked like they pull straight out, don't apply too much force if you feel curious.
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Report this Post10-10-2006 03:10 AM Click Here to See the Profile for PatrickClick Here to Email PatrickSend a Private Message to PatrickDirect Link to This Post

I found this image supposedly of the speakers I have with (what I would guess are) the tweeters removed, but I saw no way of removing the tweeters. It's not like I would normally just pull at a knobby thing sticking out from the center of a speaker.



I don't see any wires or connectors in the picture. I don't know how the heck a signal is supposed to get to the tweeters.
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Report this Post10-10-2006 03:17 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 88 FormulaClick Here to Email 88 FormulaSend a Private Message to 88 FormulaDirect Link to This Post
There has to be some type of connector on the back of the tweeters, Is there a chance someone pulled them out a little, just enough to break contact but not remove them entirely? They look like the tweeter dome itself is protected behind a little grille, you can grab the hard plastic without hurting anything, just don't pry against the woofer cone.
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Report this Post10-10-2006 03:35 AM Click Here to See the Profile for PatrickClick Here to Email PatrickSend a Private Message to PatrickDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by 88 Formula:

Can't see which spkr wires are going to which terminal.



Donít know if this is any help, but the wires going to the speaker cone are marked with a red X where they connect to the panel.



 
quote
Originally posted by 88 Formula:

They look like the tweeter dome itself is protected behind a little grille, you can grab the hard plastic without hurting anything...



The picture of those speakers which I found online and posted earlier actually look a little different than mine. The first thing I noticed is that the outside metal mounting ring is quite different. Also, there didnít appear to be any kind of a ďgrillĒ protecting my tweeters. The whole tweeter was just a smooth plastic looking device, which I described to Nick earlier as about the size and shape of a thread bobbin.

I think Iíll have to pull these speakers out of the car tomorrow and take the covers off and have a good close look. Iím afraid itís bed time now.

88 Formula, thanks for all your help. Iíll try again tomorrow...

[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 10-10-2006).]

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Report this Post10-10-2006 03:41 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 88 FormulaClick Here to Email 88 FormulaSend a Private Message to 88 FormulaDirect Link to This Post
Do you have an ohmmeter, spkr coils should read around 4 ohms, you're just looking for which terminals have that instead of infinite resistance. You're looking to see if tweeter is even connected.
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Report this Post10-10-2006 04:09 PM Click Here to See the Profile for PatrickClick Here to Email PatrickSend a Private Message to PatrickDirect Link to This Post

Yes, I have an ohmmeter, and I'm not afraid to use it.

Okay, I'll poke around a bit more today.

And here I thought this would be a 30 minute job, tops.
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Report this Post10-10-2006 06:03 PM Click Here to See the Profile for PatrickClick Here to Email PatrickSend a Private Message to PatrickDirect Link to This Post

I put an ohmmeter on all the terminals, and the only combination that doesnít show infinite resistance is the way I have it connected now. The reading off the far left and right terminals is 3.9 ohms.

Hereís a picture of the speaker/tweeter:



And a tighter shot:



That sucker isnít coming off. I gave it a pretty good tug.

I took some other pictures of both sides of the terminal panels, but PIP is having hissy-fit at the moment and wonít accept them. Iíll try again later.
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Report this Post10-10-2006 07:37 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fierofetishClick Here to Email fierofetishSend a Private Message to fierofetishDirect Link to This Post
I'm beginning to think that those are dummy tweeters, Patrick..in actual fact it might be some kind of exhaust port for the voice coil..and maybe those terminals are for connecting a seperate tweeter in line, but mounted somewhere independant to the actual woofer. I thought that when I first saw the pictures, from the way the wiring goes only from the 'normal' connectors through the baffle...and that connector plate is just a distribution point to mount the wires easily. Take a reading between the lower lefthand large spade terminal, and either of the other two right hand terminals, and then between the lh big terminal and the red one, and then between the red one, and the lefthand terminal(s)..tell us what they read..
In reality, there are only three seperate terminals, it appears to me.If there are onlt two wires going through the baffle, from the terminal, then tht isn't a tweeter, just a fancy simulated tweeter which is possibly also an exhaust port for the voice coil, as I already said.
Nick

[This message has been edited by fierofetish (edited 10-10-2006).]

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Report this Post10-10-2006 07:57 PM Click Here to See the Profile for PatrickClick Here to Email PatrickSend a Private Message to PatrickDirect Link to This Post
Nick, the terminals that stick out sideways on each side are connected directly to the respective terminals at each end on the bottom. (It's actually the same piece of metal.) Keeping that in mind, the only places I get a reading of any sort (3.9 ohms) is when I put the leads from the ohmmeter on the right and left terminals. If I put a lead on the red terminal and the other lead on either the left or right terminal, I get infinite resistance.

I tried to get another shot of the terminals to show how the red terminal (with the red X) and the left terminal connect to the crossover. It's difficult to see, but that's how the crossover is attached. I don't see what the crossover does, unless what Nick is saying about a "remote" tweeter is indeed the case.



And hereís a shot of the back of the terminals. Youíll notice the red terminal does not connect to anything on the backside of this panel.



I donít know whether this makes it any easier for anyone to figure out, but Iím getting awfully familiar with these speakers.

[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 10-10-2006).]

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Report this Post10-10-2006 08:11 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fierofetishClick Here to Email fierofetishSend a Private Message to fierofetishDirect Link to This Post
Now, I am convinced..those terminals are only to connect the wiring to another speaker/tweeter in another place.I can see that the red terminal has a connection up into the cap...and that is what made me think it was a 'treated ' signal for a tweeter....mounted elsewhere, if you so chose.Now we know why they were very reasonably priced , and why you couldn't hear the tweeters !! They aren't there!! (by the way, Patrick, I have poor hearing, but I am pretty sure that tweeters are not very effective in cars..just a wide-range woofer or midrange speaker is more effective, in my opinion and experience. In my Fiero, I have very bass-y woofers in the door pillars, and mid-to-high range in the dash . In a Fiero, the speakers are so close to each other, relative to a bigger 4 seat car, I can get a really nice blend using the front-to-back fader on the radio, that I don't need tweeters any way. Did try some after-market, and quite expensive remote tweeters in my Firebird Formula, but didn't make any appreciable difference to my deaf old ears..so I sold them !!
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Report this Post10-10-2006 11:45 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 88 FormulaClick Here to Email 88 FormulaSend a Private Message to 88 FormulaDirect Link to This Post
That's a dummy plug for the hole, isn't any type of tweeter I've ever seen, and I've seen dome tweeters (yours is supposed to be a silk dome), horn tweeters, ribbon tweeters, metal dome, planar tweeters, etc.

Check out www.partsexpress.com for all kinds of spkrs, home and car.
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Report this Post10-11-2006 05:04 AM Click Here to See the Profile for PatrickClick Here to Email PatrickSend a Private Message to PatrickDirect Link to This Post

Well thatís pretty weird, a "2-way speaker" which only has a woofer. It even has the crossover but no tweeter. No wonder I was getting completely confused.

Do we all agree then that the following is the proper way to add a remote tweeter to this system?



The solid blue lines are the speaker wires and the dotted blue line would be the path of the signal through the crossover to the tweeter. I would imagine that this crossover must be a high-pass filter.

Thanks for all your help, guys. We didnít solve a major world crisis, but I now know what to do to get quality sound in my little Hyundai.
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Report this Post10-11-2006 08:15 AM Click Here to See the Profile for fierofetishClick Here to Email fierofetishSend a Private Message to fierofetishDirect Link to This Post
I can't say categorically, Patrick, but that is my take on it too..hope you have success!!
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Report this Post10-11-2006 01:05 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 88 FormulaClick Here to Email 88 FormulaSend a Private Message to 88 FormulaDirect Link to This Post
Patrick,
If the cap (inside the heat shrink) is connected to the red terminal, it would block the lows and pass the highs to the red terminal, right terminal is common ground.
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Report this Post10-11-2006 02:23 PM Click Here to See the Profile for PatrickClick Here to Email PatrickSend a Private Message to PatrickDirect Link to This Post
Alright, we all appear to be in agreement now on the wiring. I know I've got some spare tweeters here somewhere...

By the way Nick, regarding your comments on the need (or no need) for tweeters - I honestly believe that it's probably your hearing loss from doing years of live music that's preventing you from noticing a difference with and without tweeters installed in a car. I find that the lack of high frequency reproduction makes a huge difference in how music sounds to me (in a car or otherwise). I wanna hear that high-hat.

[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 10-11-2006).]

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Report this Post10-12-2006 12:01 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 88 FormulaClick Here to Email 88 FormulaSend a Private Message to 88 FormulaDirect Link to This Post
Patrick,
Let us know how it works out. You can PM or e-Mail me if the thread is no longer here. Hope my answers weren't too tedious, but not knowing how much you already knew, I tried to include quick explanations so you could understand what the components were doing, rather than just saying which wire went where.
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Report this Post10-12-2006 02:26 AM Click Here to See the Profile for PatrickClick Here to Email PatrickSend a Private Message to PatrickDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by 88 Formula:

I tried to include quick explanations so you could understand what the components were doing, rather than just saying which wire went where.



I just wanted to know which wire went where.

The tweeters I have kicking around here somewhere are nice and small, but if I recall, they're actually components for a home system which means they're probably 8 ohm speakers. I know that 4 ohm speakers are what are normally used in a car, but will 8 ohm tweeters (which are being fed through a crossover) really be an issue? If I remember correctly, higher resistance is less of a potential problem than lower resistance.
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Report this Post10-12-2006 03:03 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 88 FormulaClick Here to Email 88 FormulaSend a Private Message to 88 FormulaDirect Link to This Post
IIRC an 8ohm spkr in parallel with a 4ohm gives you just under 3ohms total, 2.66 to be exact, close enough for your purposes.
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Report this Post10-12-2006 04:01 AM Click Here to See the Profile for PatrickClick Here to Email PatrickSend a Private Message to PatrickDirect Link to This Post

Great, thanks!
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