Patrick, See my earlier post about capacitors, I'll recap (no pun intended), a cap passes higher freqs better than lower frqs, the value of the cap determines exactly at which freqs this happens, a very small cap may only start passing AC at radio wave frequencies, that's why you'll see a lot of small ceramic (little tan discs) caps in radios. All caps block DC.
Since a cap acts as a high pass filter, it can be used in two different ways in a crossover, if placed in series with the spkr coil, it will block the lows and pass the highs to the spkr (what you want for a tweeter). However, you can also use a cap in parallel with a spkr to bypass the highs so they don't go through the coil (the highs take the easier path through the cap, what you want for a woofer). Hope this helps.
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02:25 AM
88 Formula Member
Posts: 608 From: Baden, PA USA Registered: Aug 2003
Patrick, Another possiblity as to why the tweeters aren't working is, since they are removable, did someone possibly remove them and not put them back with the contacts aligned properly, or have they been sitting around and the contacts corroded a little?
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02:37 AM
Patrick Member
Posts: 36244 From: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada Registered: Apr 99
Patrick, Another possiblity as to why the tweeters aren't working is, since they are removable, did someone possibly remove them and not put them back with the contacts aligned properly, or have they been sitting around and the contacts corroded a little?
I never saw any way for the tweeters to be removed. They seemed to me to be an integral part of the main speaker. I tried to find something about this on the 'net earlier today, but to no avail.
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02:44 AM
88 Formula Member
Posts: 608 From: Baden, PA USA Registered: Aug 2003
Patrick, I can't tell from the pics whether the cap is in series or parallel. Can't see which spkr wires are going to which terminal. Terminal may have a wire underneath or just be a connection point to solder components to. Pictures I saw of the tweeters removed looked like they pull straight out, don't apply too much force if you feel curious.
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03:06 AM
Patrick Member
Posts: 36244 From: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada Registered: Apr 99
I found this image supposedly of the speakers I have with (what I would guess are) the tweeters removed, but I saw no way of removing the tweeters. It's not like I would normally just pull at a knobby thing sticking out from the center of a speaker.
I don't see any wires or connectors in the picture. I don't know how the heck a signal is supposed to get to the tweeters.
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03:10 AM
88 Formula Member
Posts: 608 From: Baden, PA USA Registered: Aug 2003
There has to be some type of connector on the back of the tweeters, Is there a chance someone pulled them out a little, just enough to break contact but not remove them entirely? They look like the tweeter dome itself is protected behind a little grille, you can grab the hard plastic without hurting anything, just don't pry against the woofer cone.
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03:17 AM
Patrick Member
Posts: 36244 From: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada Registered: Apr 99
Can't see which spkr wires are going to which terminal.
Don’t know if this is any help, but the wires going to the speaker cone are marked with a red X where they connect to the panel.
quote
Originally posted by 88 Formula:
They look like the tweeter dome itself is protected behind a little grille, you can grab the hard plastic without hurting anything...
The picture of those speakers which I found online and posted earlier actually look a little different than mine. The first thing I noticed is that the outside metal mounting ring is quite different. Also, there didn’t appear to be any kind of a “grill” protecting my tweeters. The whole tweeter was just a smooth plastic looking device, which I described to Nick earlier as about the size and shape of a thread bobbin.
I think I’ll have to pull these speakers out of the car tomorrow and take the covers off and have a good close look. I’m afraid it’s bed time now.
88 Formula, thanks for all your help. I’ll try again tomorrow...
[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 10-10-2006).]
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03:35 AM
88 Formula Member
Posts: 608 From: Baden, PA USA Registered: Aug 2003
Do you have an ohmmeter, spkr coils should read around 4 ohms, you're just looking for which terminals have that instead of infinite resistance. You're looking to see if tweeter is even connected.
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03:41 AM
Patrick Member
Posts: 36244 From: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada Registered: Apr 99
I put an ohmmeter on all the terminals, and the only combination that doesn’t show infinite resistance is the way I have it connected now. The reading off the far left and right terminals is 3.9 ohms.
Here’s a picture of the speaker/tweeter:
And a tighter shot:
That sucker isn’t coming off. I gave it a pretty good tug.
I took some other pictures of both sides of the terminal panels, but PIP is having hissy-fit at the moment and won’t accept them. I’ll try again later.
I'm beginning to think that those are dummy tweeters, Patrick..in actual fact it might be some kind of exhaust port for the voice coil..and maybe those terminals are for connecting a seperate tweeter in line, but mounted somewhere independant to the actual woofer. I thought that when I first saw the pictures, from the way the wiring goes only from the 'normal' connectors through the baffle...and that connector plate is just a distribution point to mount the wires easily. Take a reading between the lower lefthand large spade terminal, and either of the other two right hand terminals, and then between the lh big terminal and the red one, and then between the red one, and the lefthand terminal(s)..tell us what they read.. In reality, there are only three seperate terminals, it appears to me.If there are onlt two wires going through the baffle, from the terminal, then tht isn't a tweeter, just a fancy simulated tweeter which is possibly also an exhaust port for the voice coil, as I already said. Nick
[This message has been edited by fierofetish (edited 10-10-2006).]
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07:37 PM
Patrick Member
Posts: 36244 From: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada Registered: Apr 99
Nick, the terminals that stick out sideways on each side are connected directly to the respective terminals at each end on the bottom. (It's actually the same piece of metal.) Keeping that in mind, the only places I get a reading of any sort (3.9 ohms) is when I put the leads from the ohmmeter on the right and left terminals. If I put a lead on the red terminal and the other lead on either the left or right terminal, I get infinite resistance.
I tried to get another shot of the terminals to show how the red terminal (with the red X) and the left terminal connect to the crossover. It's difficult to see, but that's how the crossover is attached. I don't see what the crossover does, unless what Nick is saying about a "remote" tweeter is indeed the case.
And here’s a shot of the back of the terminals. You’ll notice the red terminal does not connect to anything on the backside of this panel.
I don’t know whether this makes it any easier for anyone to figure out, but I’m getting awfully familiar with these speakers.
[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 10-10-2006).]
Now, I am convinced..those terminals are only to connect the wiring to another speaker/tweeter in another place.I can see that the red terminal has a connection up into the cap...and that is what made me think it was a 'treated ' signal for a tweeter....mounted elsewhere, if you so chose.Now we know why they were very reasonably priced , and why you couldn't hear the tweeters !! They aren't there!! (by the way, Patrick, I have poor hearing, but I am pretty sure that tweeters are not very effective in cars..just a wide-range woofer or midrange speaker is more effective, in my opinion and experience. In my Fiero, I have very bass-y woofers in the door pillars, and mid-to-high range in the dash . In a Fiero, the speakers are so close to each other, relative to a bigger 4 seat car, I can get a really nice blend using the front-to-back fader on the radio, that I don't need tweeters any way. Did try some after-market, and quite expensive remote tweeters in my Firebird Formula, but didn't make any appreciable difference to my deaf old ears..so I sold them !! Nick Nick
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08:11 PM
88 Formula Member
Posts: 608 From: Baden, PA USA Registered: Aug 2003
That's a dummy plug for the hole, isn't any type of tweeter I've ever seen, and I've seen dome tweeters (yours is supposed to be a silk dome), horn tweeters, ribbon tweeters, metal dome, planar tweeters, etc.
Well that’s pretty weird, a "2-way speaker" which only has a woofer. It even has the crossover but no tweeter. No wonder I was getting completely confused.
Do we all agree then that the following is the proper way to add a remote tweeter to this system?
The solid blue lines are the speaker wires and the dotted blue line would be the path of the signal through the crossover to the tweeter. I would imagine that this crossover must be a high-pass filter.
Thanks for all your help, guys. We didn’t solve a major world crisis, but I now know what to do to get quality sound in my little Hyundai.
Patrick, If the cap (inside the heat shrink) is connected to the red terminal, it would block the lows and pass the highs to the red terminal, right terminal is common ground.
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01:05 PM
Patrick Member
Posts: 36244 From: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada Registered: Apr 99
Alright, we all appear to be in agreement now on the wiring. I know I've got some spare tweeters here somewhere...
By the way Nick, regarding your comments on the need (or no need) for tweeters - I honestly believe that it's probably your hearing loss from doing years of live music that's preventing you from noticing a difference with and without tweeters installed in a car. I find that the lack of high frequency reproduction makes a huge difference in how music sounds to me (in a car or otherwise). I wanna hear that high-hat.
[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 10-11-2006).]
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02:23 PM
Oct 12th, 2006
88 Formula Member
Posts: 608 From: Baden, PA USA Registered: Aug 2003
Patrick, Let us know how it works out. You can PM or e-Mail me if the thread is no longer here. Hope my answers weren't too tedious, but not knowing how much you already knew, I tried to include quick explanations so you could understand what the components were doing, rather than just saying which wire went where.
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12:01 AM
Patrick Member
Posts: 36244 From: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada Registered: Apr 99
I tried to include quick explanations so you could understand what the components were doing, rather than just saying which wire went where.
I just wanted to know which wire went where.
The tweeters I have kicking around here somewhere are nice and small, but if I recall, they're actually components for a home system which means they're probably 8 ohm speakers. I know that 4 ohm speakers are what are normally used in a car, but will 8 ohm tweeters (which are being fed through a crossover) really be an issue? If I remember correctly, higher resistance is less of a potential problem than lower resistance.
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02:26 AM
PFF
System Bot
88 Formula Member
Posts: 608 From: Baden, PA USA Registered: Aug 2003