The indiginous people had a religious belief based on the Great Spirit who created the Earth. They believed that the Great Spirit manifested himself in the form of animals and trees. They believed that they were part of an homogenous world and gave value to every element of the earth.
They believed in spirits, and gave animals such as bears, wolves, etc. spiritual significance.
This belief system made it virtually impossible for them to understand the white man's ownership of specific ground. They saw the earth as a communal holding created by the Great Spirit.
When Christianity was introduced, many tribes immediately understood this as an extension of their own beliefs.
It is interesting to note that most indigenous peoples around the world share this common belief of a great spirit who created all things.
The down side of the culture was their treatment of the old, the infirmed, and the use of captives as slaves, or, wives. However, this should not be considered terribly different than the white man's use of slaves, women, children, and the various ills of Europe which are quite well known.
If you want to know more, it is a relatively easy thing to approach the Native community. There are 6 Nations settlements in your area, and I am certain there will be Native associations in your immediate vicinity. Your local library will have resource material coming out the wazoo.
Hope this helps.
Arn
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06:22 PM
Snowcrash Member
Posts: 411 From: Sugar Land, TX Registered: Oct 2004
What do you think becomes of us now? No christ came across any ocean, only tales of such. Having dismissed these tails as foreign nothing has changed from my forefathers' day.
So, what do you think becomes of us now?
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01:58 AM
Pyrthian Member
Posts: 29569 From: Detroit, MI Registered: Jul 2002
Read it. You decide. Old or new testement you should be able to find what you are asking for. I donno just what you are trying to figure out, what scenario or what not, but I know where you will find the answer. I think what would get you in the right direction is Romans, or else in the old testement something that might answer your question would be around Joshua or so.
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12:15 PM
Pyrthian Member
Posts: 29569 From: Detroit, MI Registered: Jul 2002
Read it. You decide. Old or new testement you should be able to find what you are asking for. I donno just what you are trying to figure out, what scenario or what not, but I know where you will find the answer. I think what would get you in the right direction is Romans, or else in the old testement something that might answer your question would be around Joshua or so.
16 Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17 When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18 Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."
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01:24 PM
Oct 2nd, 2006
Fastback 86 Member
Posts: 7849 From: Los Angeles, CA Registered: Sep 2003
16 Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17 When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18 Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."
Thats all well and good, but it doesn't answer the question. What happened to everyone before Jesus sent the disciples out to baptize everyone and make everyone disciples? Heck, were Adam and Eve doomed cause Christ wasn't around to die for thier sins yet? Whatever happened to them?
Thats all well and good, but it doesn't answer the question. What happened to everyone before Jesus sent the disciples out to baptize everyone and make everyone disciples? Heck, were Adam and Eve doomed cause Christ wasn't around to die for thier sins yet? Whatever happened to them?
That would take about 5 minits of reading in Genesis. Really, read first then ask questions. I get the feeling that questions like these are meant to be loaded or something. Before Christ there was the promise of Christ, and that is what God's children believed in. All their offerings were reminders of the Lamb to come, who would be sacrificed for the atonment of all of their sins, which was promised the very moment after adam and eve sinned. The gospel in a nutshell is John 3:16. If you believe, you will go to heaven. If you don't then you wont. To be honest, there is no way for anyone to know if any other human goes to heaven or not, since they do not know what is truely in their heart. Only God knows that. I linked a searchable bible. If you have questions, you can search for answeres there just as you would do a search on here or google or anything else like that. After you read, if you still do not understand I will do my best to help you, as the Lord enables me. Otherwise, it is pointless for me to make human arguments or statements. God's word is the truth and the sorce of knowledge. If you do not wish to read it, there is nothing that I can tell you that will be of any sence to you. If you are here for help and knowledge, I will do my best. If you are here to argue and quarrel, I have no argurment with you and no reason to quarrel, thus you are wasting your time. Your argument would be with God and not me. If you do not feel like posting here, you can always reach me via pm. God bless.
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02:33 AM
Fastback 86 Member
Posts: 7849 From: Los Angeles, CA Registered: Sep 2003
That would take about 5 minits of reading in Genesis. Really, read first then ask questions. I get the feeling that questions like these are meant to be loaded or something. Before Christ there was the promise of Christ, and that is what God's children believed in. All their offerings were reminders of the Lamb to come, who would be sacrificed for the atonment of all of their sins, which was promised the very moment after adam and eve sinned. The gospel in a nutshell is John 3:16. If you believe, you will go to heaven. If you don't then you wont. To be honest, there is no way for anyone to know if any other human goes to heaven or not, since they do not know what is truely in their heart. Only God knows that. I linked a searchable bible. If you have questions, you can search for answeres there just as you would do a search on here or google or anything else like that. After you read, if you still do not understand I will do my best to help you, as the Lord enables me. Otherwise, it is pointless for me to make human arguments or statements. God's word is the truth and the sorce of knowledge. If you do not wish to read it, there is nothing that I can tell you that will be of any sence to you. If you are here for help and knowledge, I will do my best. If you are here to argue and quarrel, I have no argurment with you and no reason to quarrel, thus you are wasting your time. Your argument would be with God and not me. If you do not feel like posting here, you can always reach me via pm. God bless.
I don't like to read. Too many words.
Anyway, that argument appears to be contradictory. You're saying that, prior to Christ, there was the promise of Christ that was instilled in the people, so all was well. But if thats true, and we're all God's children descended from Adam and Eve, then we should all have that same sense of the Promise of Christ embedded within us. And really, its a promise from a different perspective, now that the life of Christ and His sacrifice have come and past. The problem I see here, then, is that post-Genesis, Jesus tells the Disciples to go forth and baptize and convert the world and teach them about Christ. Now, if we're all created with an intrinsic understanding of the Promise of Christ, then there should have been no need for Jesus to issue this commandment to the Disciples. Therefore, either the original premise, that we all are endowed with an understanding of the Promise of Christ, or Christ's own commandment, is not correct. If the original premise is correct, there would be no need for the Disciples to spread the word of Christ. We'd already know. But if its not correct, then we are left with the original question of this thread: what happened to everybody before the Disciples and the Disciples Disciples made it around the world to spread the word of Christ?
This is why I don't read the Bible much. Far too much contradiction, circular logic, and convenient answers. I truly believe that my faith in the Almighty is stronger as it is than it would be if I tried to make heads or tails of man's heavily abridged interpretation of God's word.
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03:44 AM
PFF
System Bot
5.0Vert Member
Posts: 287 From: Hurst, Tx, USA Registered: Mar 2005
Religion, I just don't buy it, although I can understand why people think it answers all the questions........it doesn't. How do you explain all the different types of religion then?
Religion, I just don't buy it, although I can understand why people think it answers all the questions........it doesn't. How do you explain all the different types of religion then?
How do you explain different languages? Different interpretations of the same thing just a different way of expressing it?
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06:22 AM
BamaFieroMan Member
Posts: 324 From: Alabaster, AL. USA! Registered: Jun 2006
Religion is a personal thing to many people and there are discrepancies in all religions, bar none. That is why religion is also referred to as "faith". Some things you just have to take on faith.
As for Adam and Eve and what happened to them, simply put, while in Eden, they were walking with God every day until the serpent convinced Eve to eat from the forbidden fruit, which brought about original sin. They were banished from Eden, but, went on to have several children.
Kinda curious, why would ask this question if you are against reading? All the answers to your questions can be easily found by doing a search of biblical sites. In addition, remember that my interpretation of the bible can be vastly different from another person's, which is why you should take the time to read for yourself.
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06:36 AM
Formula88 Member
Posts: 53788 From: Raleigh NC Registered: Jan 2001
Originally posted by 86fierofun: That would take about 5 minits of reading in Genesis. Really, read first then ask questions. I get the feeling that questions like these are meant to be loaded or something.
well, you are right - the Q was loaded. so, since no one will answer it - I will unload it.
since they were never given the choice to beleive or not, they were given a free pass. much like children. now, the loaded part: since the church coming over, they are now doomed, since now they have the choice. and we all know what they chose. they chose heritage & freedom, and were slaughtered wholesale, and sent to the flames. so, to expand: in order to make sure EVERYONE gets a free pass - noone should know of the choice. so, the very existance of the church & the book dooms people. AKA - if it wasnt for the church & religion - EVERYONE would get the free pass.
but, thats all assuming the Aztecs, the Eskimos & Children didnt go straight to the flames.
its all in the choice, isnt it?
quote
Originally posted by Snowcrash: I know where you are going with this...
Anyway, that argument appears to be contradictory. You're saying that, prior to Christ, there was the promise of Christ that was instilled in the people, so all was well. But if thats true, and we're all God's children descended from Adam and Eve, then we should all have that same sense of the Promise of Christ embedded within us. And really, its a promise from a different perspective, now that the life of Christ and His sacrifice have come and past. The problem I see here, then, is that post-Genesis, Jesus tells the Disciples to go forth and baptize and convert the world and teach them about Christ. Now, if we're all created with an intrinsic understanding of the Promise of Christ, then there should have been no need for Jesus to issue this commandment to the Disciples. Therefore, either the original premise, that we all are endowed with an understanding of the Promise of Christ, or Christ's own commandment, is not correct. If the original premise is correct, there would be no need for the Disciples to spread the word of Christ. We'd already know. But if its not correct, then we are left with the original question of this thread: what happened to everybody before the Disciples and the Disciples Disciples made it around the world to spread the word of Christ?
This is why I don't read the Bible much. Far too much contradiction, circular logic, and convenient answers. I truly believe that my faith in the Almighty is stronger as it is than it would be if I tried to make heads or tails of man's heavily abridged interpretation of God's word.
Where did I say that we were installed with the promise of christ???!!! I said that
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All their offerings were reminders of the Lamb to come, who would be sacrificed for the atonment of all of their sins
They were not created with it, God taught them through moses and his profits, and most of them rejected it to severe consequences. Ever since sin entered the world, everyone is born evil, sinful from birth and need the saving grace of the gospel message of Christ. In the old testement it was the promise of Christ, in the new testement it is the decloration that Christ has risen again, and that "it is finished".
Everyone who tells me that the bible is full of contradictions has never read it!!! You don't like reading??? In the time it would take you to read this whole post and come up with a reply you could have opened up a bible (or clicked the link i gave) and easily found your answer. It's not that you don't like reading, it's that you don't like what you read. and this is why
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1 Corinthians 1:18-25 18For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19For it is written: "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate."[c] 20Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. 22Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom, 23but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 24but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength.
listen to BamaFieroMan:
quote
Religion is a personal thing to many people and there are discrepancies in all religions, bar none. That is why religion is also referred to as "faith". Some things you just have to take on faith.
As for Adam and Eve and what happened to them, simply put, while in Eden, they were walking with God every day until the serpent convinced Eve to eat from the forbidden fruit, which brought about original sin. They were banished from Eden, but, went on to have several children.
Kinda curious, why would ask this question if you are against reading? All the answers to your questions can be easily found by doing a search of biblical sites. In addition, remember that my interpretation of the bible can be vastly different from another person's, which is why you should take the time to read for yourself.
Do not take my word, read the bible, as it is God's word. His word is truth, and the truth will set you free. Many are lead astray by false teachings, because they do not know God's word which is readily available. Why are people so willing to take on faith what other humans say but not God says? Read his word and the bible and take that on faith and your questions will be answered.
quote
well, you are right - the Q was loaded. so, since no one will answer it - I will unload it.
since they were never given the choice to beleive or not, they were given a free pass. much like children. now, the loaded part: since the church coming over, they are now doomed, since now they have the choice. and we all know what they chose. they chose heritage & freedom, and were slaughtered wholesale, and sent to the flames. so, to expand: in order to make sure EVERYONE gets a free pass - noone should know of the choice. so, the very existance of the church & the book dooms people. AKA - if it wasnt for the church & religion - EVERYONE would get the free pass.
but, thats all assuming the Aztecs, the Eskimos & Children didnt go straight to the flames.
its all in the choice, isnt it?
There is no such thing as a free pass in God's sight. I said before, if anyone believes, he will be saved. If they don't, they wont. It is rediculus to assume that if you don't know you are sinning, that you are free from punishment. That's like saying if i don't know what the speed limit is, it is ok for me to blast down the road at 150 mph. Ignorance is not a free pass. You will still perish. The old testement is filled with examples of nations in situations just like the indians. They perished from their ignorance. Did the indians? My answer is i don't know. I can take a guess, but unless the bible specifically mentions the fate of an individual, no one know what was in that individual's heart except God, thus no one know's their fate except God. Now once they have the message of God and reject it, that is very bad indeed. That is worse than ignorance, as you are loosing all hope of salvation, and are sealing your destruction. However, ignorance and rejection lead to the same end. Ignorance has hope of salvation upon hearing the message, rejection is past that point, and hope is mostly gone (all hope dissapears upon death).
Your first concern and worry should not be what has happended to someone who has already died, but what is going to happen to you? Do you know when you will die?
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James 4 :14-17 13Now listen, you who say, "Today or tomorrow we will go to this or that city, spend a year there, carry on business and make money." 14Why, you do not even know what will happen tomorrow. What is your life? You are a mist that appears for a little while and then vanishes. 15Instead, you ought to say, "If it is the Lord's will, we will live and do this or that." 16As it is, you boast and brag. All such boasting is evil. 17Anyone, then, who knows the good he ought to do and doesn't do it, sins.
On the last day, when the dead are risen and Christ comes to judge the living and the dead, then you will know what has happend to the indians and any other ancient culture, city, family, or individual. Why worry about such things as
quote
Matthew 6:27
27Who of you by worrying can add a single hour to his life[a]?
What is important right now is what will happen to you? If you read the bible, hear God's word, and come to faith by God's call, then you will be filled with his love, hope, and promise and you will know your fate. Then, once you have your home secured, and faithfully believe this promise:
quote
John 14 1-4 1"Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God[a]; trust also in me. 2In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you. 3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. 4You know the way to the place where I am going."
Then you worry about others in this world and preach to them the word of God that they may believe and be saved.
I hope this post will help. I have included some passeges to help, and I hope that you will read them along with what I have typed. I pray furthermore that you will be inspired to read further. If any of the passages speak to you, read the rest of the chapter. If it continues to speak to you, read the rest of the book. Keep reading, and keep learning. I pray that you do so.
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11:50 AM
Pyrthian Member
Posts: 29569 From: Detroit, MI Registered: Jul 2002
Originally posted by 86fierofun: There is no such thing as a free pass in God's sight. I said before, if anyone believes, he will be saved. If they don't, they wont. It is rediculus to assume that if you don't know you are sinning, that you are free from punishment. That's like saying if i don't know what the speed limit is, it is ok for me to blast down the road at 150 mph. Ignorance is not a free pass. You will still perish. The old testement is filled with examples of nations in situations just like the indians. They perished from their ignorance. Did the indians? My answer is i don't know. I can take a guess, but unless the bible specifically mentions the fate of an individual, no one know what was in that individual's heart except God, thus no one know's their fate except God. Now once they have the message of God and reject it, that is very bad indeed. That is worse than ignorance, as you are loosing all hope of salvation, and are sealing your destruction. However, ignorance and rejection lead to the same end. Ignorance has hope of salvation upon hearing the message, rejection is past that point, and hope is mostly gone (all hope dissapears upon death).
ok, finally answered - they never had a chance.....ok
It is my understanding that above all else God is supposed to be 3 thing: 1- Omnipotent, or all powerful; 2- Omnipresent, or all seeing and all knowing; and 3 omnifiscent(sic), or all-good with no evil in His nature. ie: He wants nothing but the best for His' people.
A member stated "The old testement is filled with examples of nations in situations just like the indians. They perished from their ignorance.
Here's my problem: If God is these 3 things then why did these "examples of nations" perish. God must have known thier plight (no-one there to teach the gospel), and He would want these people to go to heaven (to go to hell would be bad for them), and if He is all powerful He could have easily commanded someone to go there or simple made it his Will for someone to just "be" there to save these peple from damnation. And yet "The old testement is filled with examples of nations in situations just like the indians. They perished from their ignorance."
So which is God not: omnipresent omnifiscent or omnipotent?........Either way it's a contradiction; God does not eqaul God, and speghetti monster does not equal speghetti monster
Ok. I should restate that. The very fact that the bible mentions the other nations makes them different from the indians. Again I will tell you to read the bible to find the answers, but I will summarise quickly (and in no way should you take my answer as truth, read the bible to test and verify what I say). Even in ignorance, they (being those in ignorance, not just indians) are in a way denying the Lord's message by ignoring his work, and the proof of his existance around them. The referenced in the old testement have no excuse for being ignorant of God because they could see his work, both in his creation and in his people Isreal. Now people will ask, well how could the indians have known that? well... This is a start. God says that all are given the chance, but unfortunatly many reject him. Don't ask my how the indians were told, could have been prophets, seers, interpreters of dreams, by dream, by any means imaginable, but the bible doesn't say. Could some of them have believed? possibly. I donno if a Great Spirit that some of the indians worshipped was God or not, as the bible never mentions them in particular as far as I can tell (which I may be wrong on, since I am reading an english translation and I have almost no knowledge of ancient geography). I do know this:
quote
2 Peter 3:9 9The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
. The question that you should be asking is are you going to repent, believe and be saved? or are you going to continue to reject the word of God to perish for all eternity?
It is my understanding that above all else God is supposed to be 3 thing: 1- Omnipotent, or all powerful; 2- Omnipresent, or all seeing and all knowing; and 3 omnifiscent(sic), or all-good with no evil in His nature. ie: He wants nothing but the best for His' people.
A member stated "The old testement is filled with examples of nations in situations just like the indians. They perished from their ignorance.
Here's my problem: If God is these 3 things then why did these "examples of nations" perish. God must have known thier plight (no-one there to teach the gospel), and He would want these people to go to heaven (to go to hell would be bad for them), and if He is all powerful He could have easily commanded someone to go there or simple made it his Will for someone to just "be" there to save these peple from damnation. And yet "The old testement is filled with examples of nations in situations just like the indians. They perished from their ignorance."
So which is God not: omnipresent omnifiscent or omnipotent?........Either way it's a contradiction; God does not eqaul God, and speghetti monster does not equal speghetti monster
Once more. Look at the jews. God sent them prophit after prophit after prophit and did they repent and believe? No! God sent them into exile and punished them after giving them opportunity after opportunity, warning after warning. Then, after they repented and he rebuilt them up as a nation, they go and kill God's son. This is how God's children acted. How would the "ignorant nations" have acted any different? Look once more. You have the whole bible, the word of God at your fingertips, something that they didn't have as much access to. You can judge for yourself what is right and true, but do you? Everyone has been given ample oportunity to repent, but do they? I pray that you don't reject the lord as they have, and that you are not lost as they were.
If you grow up in a society that hasn't heard of God, Jesus, the crucifixion and redemption and learned that you have to repent of your sins to be saved - you're going to hell.
It doesn't matter if you know right from wrong and are a good person, because we are all sinners, so if you don't ask for forgiveness, you're going to hell.
If you didn't know you had to ask forgiveness, too bad. You're going to hell anyway.
So, you better stop worrying about entire civilizations condemned to eternal hellfire and start repenting yourself, or you're going to hell.
I will never be lost so long as I follow the good words of my speghetti monster. Who says She shall save all through the magic of Her hearty tomato sauce.
I really just don't see how an intelligent person in this day and age can believe what is taught by the church and written in the bible. We all know the current scriptures were compiled by a group of men working towards there own ends a very long time ago. They picked and chose what would be included and what would not, they essentially edited out Mary Magdalene (not that I want to get into a discussion about that book (movie, hehehe) people like to talk about so much lately) and many other scriptures. I believe Paul??? has only one gospel (not quite sure of the names it's been awhile since I've studied these things) but many more were written by him but for some reason omitted from the official text. Why? A good question maybe one of the disciples was teaching a heresy, or maybe he said women and men are equals which certainly would not have been the churches viewpoint when the bible was finallized.
Rationally speaking the bible and the scriptures are full of contradictons, enough for me to doubt it. I do believe that there is one true power above us but I don't believe the bible and the church's teachings are an accurate reflection of His' (Her) will. Thier teachings have been perverted over time. Luckily for those who do this Jesus forgives all, right? if I must believe to be saved; I ask who do I believe? The creators of the bible or the word of Jesus Christ (no I don't believe they are one and the same) I would love to follow Jesus' words to a T and be gauranteed a swell afterlife, but how can I ask him without going through someone else first? Let's say I'm too synical (which I should be forgiven of) to believe anyone and need to hear it from the source. How can anyone get the straight poop on the issue?
On the other hand I respect your right to believe in whatever you prefer; to even if it is not my beloved speghetti monster j/j but for myself the bible and Christen/catholic church just don't cut it. Buddisim...well it looks sensible so far, and in my search for faith this may be were I stop. Karma? well that would be nice.
P.S. The burden of proof must be placed upon the believers, or all arguements from them become circular.
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04:44 PM
frontal lobe Member
Posts: 9042 From: brookfield,wisconsin Registered: Dec 1999
Pretty close, but not really. But I have known you pretty well, Formula88, and you know I respect you, so I can answer you directly and even if you ultimately disagree, you will at least consider it.
I just gave you the verses so you wouldn't have to look them up.
Tit 2:11 ¶ For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men
That's what the Bible claims. I don't pretend to know on a practical level how He did that for all men, including the American Indians referenced in the initial post. I know SOME of the ways He did it, but not all the ways. Again, that would be considering that the God we are talking about is the one portrayed in the Bible.
Here is some of how He did it, in more detail but hopefully not too lengthy:
Ro 1:19 ¶ Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: 21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. 24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: 25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
According to the Bible, God has put it in humans that they will see the wonder of the world that they live in, understand at some level that it couldn't have just "happened", and be curious about how it got there. If they showed a genuine interest in knowing, God would make sure they got the complete knowledge they needed to hear of the Christ, the Messiah, Jesus. However, instead of that, people have decided they have figured it out themselves, and actually started worshiping the creation instead of the Creator. From what I have learned in public grade school, this seems to particularly be the case with the American Indians, who worship the land, animals, etc. At least that is my understanding. I have never had a particular interest in American Indian culture to investigate it in detail.
AV8DAY mentions that "...above all else God is supposed to be 3 things: 1- Omnipotent, or all powerful; 2- Omnipresent, or all seeing and all knowing; and 3 omnifiscent(sic), or all-good with no evil in His nature. ie: He wants nothing but the best for His' people.
That is an almost-correct statement. Actually, it highlights a very interesting question. Which of God's many attributes is above all others? Because you didn't have to stop with those 3 characteristics. God is loving, faithful, holy, just, long-suffering, merciful, etc. MOST people say the over-riding characteristic is that God is LOVE. The correct answer is that above all other things, God is holy. How do I know? Interesting what the angels say constantly in the presence of God as described in Revelation. They don't stand around saying "loving, loving, loving." They say, "holy, holy, holy."
So the question is how do you reconcile his omnipresence, omnipotence, and omniscience with whole groups of people apparently with no chance? But you also have to roll into that question, where does His holiness, faithfulness, love, longsuffering, mercy, etc. fit in as well?
The omniscience part would mean that since He knows everything, if there was some level of interest and curiosity that someone had, God would have been obligated to make sure someone of His people with knowledge of the way to heaven would have gone to tell them.
An interesting example, whether someone believes the bible or not, is the story of Jonah, which most people are familiar with. Most people only see the "3 days in the belly of the whale" part of the story (and btw, it never states it was a whale, it states it was a great fish. I suppose it could have been a whale). Regardless, Jonah was ticked off because someone in the country of Ninevah must have shown a curiosity as described above, and God told Jonah to go there and tell them about Him. He hated those people, so was fleeing to the end of the known world (to Jonah) on a ship when the whole event happened. After Jonah got spit back out onto land, God again told Jonah to get to Ninevah. Jonah did it that time, and gave them the message, and a lot of people accepted (also, a lot didn't).
Regardless of whether you believe the Bible is true or not, it does answer all these issues, and not in any "contradiction, circular logic, convenient answer" way. But it is a long book to read, so if you only pick snippets out, and try to answer things, someone can make those accusations. Understandable. These are complex issues. And if you come to them with an already decided view point, then you can take what amount of the Bible you DO know, and come to a certain conclusion. If you look at it in its entirety, the answers become clear and then it just gets down to whether you accept it as true or not.
Anyway, I respectfully submit the above as an answer to some of the above questions. Thought some of you might like to know where the answers came from so you could see it yourself, without actually having to take the time to go dig out the references by yourself.
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04:59 PM
Scott-Wa Member
Posts: 5392 From: Tacoma, WA, USA Registered: Mar 2002
Once more. Look at the jews. God sent them prophit after prophit after prophit and did they repent and believe? No! God sent them into exile and punished them after giving them opportunity after opportunity, warning after warning. Then, after they repented and he rebuilt them up as a nation, they go and kill God's son. This is how God's children acted. How would the "ignorant nations" have acted any different? Look once more. You have the whole bible, the word of God at your fingertips, something that they didn't have as much access to. You can judge for yourself what is right and true, but do you? Everyone has been given ample oportunity to repent, but do they? I pray that you don't reject the lord as they have, and that you are not lost as they were.
How do you reconcile this with the Jews getting Israel back? It's pretty obvious that jews still don't believe that Jesus was A) the Messiah, and any jewish site can explain why, or B) the even more ridiculous notion (to someone jewish or islamic) that he was the son of god. The only ones that would buy into the concept of a human son of a god were polytheists of the time praying to Roman or Egyptian gods. The idea that a man was god, died for our sins is ludicrious...
Blasphemous satire follows...
"Hey believers, I've been telling you for thousands of years that I AM and to follow the law I gave you... but I changed my mind and instead of being part of everything I've spun off a flesh and blood wimpy twit that doesn't honor his mother, let's his lame butt be crucified by those who do believe in human offspring from gods. Oh, change the meaning of what the testament has been for the last several thousand years... you've had it wrong all this time. That sacrifice god supplied to Abraham was really Jesus!... Honest... I've just been screwing with you all this time and have decided to come clean. I'm not really the one and only... I'm actually split into three... meet my ghost and my kid... no really I've got a ghost... cool huh? Just me jamming up here in heaven with my kid and the ghost... the ghost doesn't do much but he did pass over the water in the beginning so toss a bit of worship in there for that personality of mine."
Hey, I know I told you not to have graven images, but those Romans and Egyptians are pretty into it, so how about using a symbol of a torturous means of killing as a symbol for me... I'd like that. Hey, if a graven image of my kid is nailed to it... even better, I love seeing that wuss squirm. AS a vengeful god he just pisses me off to no end. I was talking to Zeus the other day and he kept ragging on me about how cool Hercules turned out, but my kid let himself be killed for your sins says I... oh wait, not your sins... just those of you that believe and take him as your personal savior, man it ain't easy getting people to take a dead street corner preacher as their savior, most of them prefer Hercules. They think someone slaying multiheaded monsters and changing the courses of rivers is more likely to save them than some guy the Romans nailed to a cross... wonder why? Probably be easier to believe if anyone but that crazy chick Mary had seen him risen... no one reported the thousands of dead that rose and wandered around for weeks, I blame the damn liberal press. I know I know... walking on water isn't as impressive as when I opened the seas for Moses... but he was just a kid. Yeah Yeah, I fed the tribes for 40 years on manna so your not real impressed with fishes and loaves one time... Oh and I know you were warned about charlatans healing people and you still fall for that trick at all the revival meetings, but jesus was different. Ignore that he didn't bring any written word from me, that your following stuff written hundreds of years after his death supposedly written as the teachings of those around him... not his writings (ignore the idea that my prophets wrote their own books... even Mohammed). Ignore that the word wasn't fulfilled... I'm sending him back again later to finish that up with a bunch of modifications also taken from Roman mythology... those Romans had some cool ideas, they will make much better cartoons than mine.. gotta give them props.
Ignore that the Sabbath wasn't kept, the stray ones haven't returned to Jerusalem, the Law isn't kept, and he sure didn't save Israel
Textual requirements for the Messiah from the bible follow... can followers of Jesus check them all off? Most? Some?
* The Sanhedrin will be re-established (Isaiah 1:26) * Once he is King, leaders of other nations will look to him for guidance. (Isaiah 2:4) * The whole world will worship the One God of Israel (Isaiah 2:17) * He will be descended from King David (Isaiah 11:1) via King Solomon (1 Chron. 22:8-10) * The Moshiach will be a man of this world, an observant Jew with "fear of God" (Isaiah 11:2) * Evil and tyranny will not be able to stand before his leadership (Isaiah 11:4) * Knowledge of God will fill the world (Isaiah 11:9) * He will include and attract people from all cultures and nations (Isaiah 11:10) * All Israelites will be returned to their homeland (Isaiah 11:12) * He will swallow up death forever (Isaiah 25:8) * There will be no more hunger or illness, and death will cease (Isaiah 25:8) * All of the dead will rise again (Isaiah 26:19) * The Jewish people will experience eternal joy and gladness (Isaiah 51:11) * He will be a messenger of peace (Isaiah 52:7) * Nations will end up recognizing the wrongs they did Israel (Isaiah 52:13-53:5) * For My House shall be called a house of prayer for all nations (Isaiah 56:3-7) * The peoples of the world will turn to the Jews for spiritual guidance (Zechariah 8:23) * The ruined cities of Israel will be restored (Ezekiel 16:55) * Weapons of war will be destroyed (Ezekiel 39:9) * The Temple will be rebuilt (Ezekiel 40) resuming many of the suspended mitzvot * He will then perfect the entire world to serve God together, as it is written (Zephaniah 3:9) * Jews will know the Torah without Study (Jeremiah 31:33) * He will give you all the desires of your heart (Psalms 37:4) * He will take the barren land and make it abundant and fruitful (Isaiah 51:3, Amos 9:13-15, Ezekiel 36:29-30, Isaiah 11:6-9)
Jesus seems lacking to me as a non christian.
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05:02 PM
Scott-Wa Member
Posts: 5392 From: Tacoma, WA, USA Registered: Mar 2002
Ignore that the Sabbath wasn't kept, the stray ones haven't returned to Jerusalem, the Law isn't kept, and he sure didn't save Israel
Textual requirements for the Messiah from the bible follow... can followers of Jesus check them all off? Most? Some?
* The Sanhedrin will be re-established (Isaiah 1:26) * Once he is King, leaders of other nations will look to him for guidance. (Isaiah 2:4) * The whole world will worship the One God of Israel (Isaiah 2:17) * He will be descended from King David (Isaiah 11:1) via King Solomon (1 Chron. 22:8-10) * The Moshiach will be a man of this world, an observant Jew with "fear of God" (Isaiah 11:2) * Evil and tyranny will not be able to stand before his leadership (Isaiah 11:4) * Knowledge of God will fill the world (Isaiah 11:9) * He will include and attract people from all cultures and nations (Isaiah 11:10) * All Israelites will be returned to their homeland (Isaiah 11:12) * He will swallow up death forever (Isaiah 25:8) * There will be no more hunger or illness, and death will cease (Isaiah 25:8) * All of the dead will rise again (Isaiah 26:19) * The Jewish people will experience eternal joy and gladness (Isaiah 51:11) * He will be a messenger of peace (Isaiah 52:7) * Nations will end up recognizing the wrongs they did Israel (Isaiah 52:13-53:5) * For My House shall be called a house of prayer for all nations (Isaiah 56:3-7) * The peoples of the world will turn to the Jews for spiritual guidance (Zechariah 8:23) * The ruined cities of Israel will be restored (Ezekiel 16:55) * Weapons of war will be destroyed (Ezekiel 39:9) * The Temple will be rebuilt (Ezekiel 40) resuming many of the suspended mitzvot * He will then perfect the entire world to serve God together, as it is written (Zephaniah 3:9) * Jews will know the Torah without Study (Jeremiah 31:33) * He will give you all the desires of your heart (Psalms 37:4) * He will take the barren land and make it abundant and fruitful (Isaiah 51:3, Amos 9:13-15, Ezekiel 36:29-30, Isaiah 11:6-9)
Jesus seems lacking to me as a non christian.
Jesus seemed lacking to the jews living in his day, too, because he didn't fulfill those prophecies. And it is a fascinating thing to me. There are LOTS more prophecies of what the Messiah would do. Why limit the list to those? Because those are the ones the jews wanted fulfilled RIGHT NOW. Do it RIGHT NOW, Jesus. And he told them repeatedly, that at this particular time, those weren't the ones he would be fulfilling. He would be fulfilling other ones in his role as the sacrificial lamb to pay for the sins of the world, and that his fulfilling the prophecies of him in his role as King of the Jews would not be during this visit. And that isn't what they wanted. So they rejected him.
Now you MAY have been unaware of that. But knowing your intelligence level, and level of reading, I doubt it.
Scott wa, i donno if you realise what I was refering to, but Jew's in my post was pre-Christ, so they were all "Christians" in that they were waiting for the messiah If you read romans, you will not be saying that Jesus does not fit the description of the messiah. He has, does, and always will.
You said : How do you reconcile this with the Jews getting Israel back? It's pretty obvious that jews still don't believe that Jesus was A) the Messiah, and any jewish site can explain why, or B) the even more ridiculous notion (to someone jewish or islamic) that he was the son of god. The only ones that would buy into the concept of a human son of a god were polytheists of the time praying to Roman or Egyptian gods. The idea that a man was god, died for our sins is ludicrious...
Do you listen to yourself? Am I a Jew, am I Islamic? No. I am a christian who is talking about Christianity. The Jews stumbled to follow God before Christ, why would you use them as the all knowing source on him? I am using God's words to talk about God. Then the fact that you write: Blasphemous satire follows... goes to show that you have no interests in learning about God, that you have already rejected him, and you seem to have no problem with calling upon yourself God's anger.
What do you wish me to say. Do you want me to argue with you? Do you want to quarrel? Are you trying to get me mad? Why? It doesn't matter to me if you believe or not, as that is not under my control, nor my dutie under Christ. I have been called to deliver God's message of redemption and salvation to all. I will not argue with you. It does makes me sad to see such lack of faith. I pray you reconsider, and that you open up the bible and actually read. What is there to loose? try it.
AV8DAY, If you believe in God, an intelligent being who created all things, how can you believe that he would let his word get perverted? The bible is the inspired word of God, as written by the Holy Spirit.
Matthew 5:18 18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.
