http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14897315/
Maybe supporters of these "Secret Prisons" and these "Interogation Methods" will think twice about the their beliefs, when it's them or one of their loved ones, that are deprived of their basic Human Rights, simply becouse someone put the "stink-eye" on them.
How can anyone give this man, or his wife, their life back.
Imagine what he went through.
And the shame people heaped upon his wife.
"Oooops, sorry" just can't cover it.

It has been said that torture is an "unrealable" tool for gathering information.
This man proves that fact.
ONCE AGAIN.
He was tortured to the point of confessing to having trained in Afghanistan, although it has been proved he has NEVER been there.
A person will tell you anything you want, to get you to stop.
That DON'T make it true!
And THAT'S why it DON'T WORK!
You CAN NOT rely on the information you have gathered, under those conditions.
Kind of makes it POINTLESS, don't it?

Unless.....................It's being done for another reason......................

[This message has been edited by Boondawg (edited 09-18-2006).]

That was on 60 minutes last week... I was horrified.

I understand and agree with everything you are saying. There should be some major reprocutions heaped on the Canadian agents that put the thumb on this guy. Nastyness is also due to the US guys working this case for not verifying the quality of the alegations about this guy.


However
We will never know about the Information collected through Extraordinary Renditions of any 'real' bad folks.
1) we can never let the terrorist organisations figure out 'exactly' how we came by our information. If they do they simply have to fill the holes in their organization. AKA Whack the Stoolie
2) If they know what information we have, they can shut down that area of their operation. Cut off the arm to save the body for an example
3) Once we have a genuine terrorist agent in custody He and his direct associates are compromised and will be cut off from communications by the organization. Two or more agents no longer players anymore. Not to mention the brown underwear syndrome experienced by all that have direct associations with the detainee.
4) 'You can't handle the truth'. There is prolly some information that would make the general public sh-t themselves if it became general knowledge. We may never know what may have come close to happening, but that was averted by proper intelegence. Think of the TV shows The Agency and The Unit.

Yes, there was very little reason this family should have been put through this nightmare, but the families of 9/11 should not have been put through their problems either. Same can be said for those inocents that are going to be killed in the future by Islamist Whack Jobs. I'm sorry that terrorists don't want to follow the Geneva guidelines, I think the US should follow the conventions about enemy combatants, with animals I think we should have some leeway.

Rant over, flame suit zipped up

------------------
Ol' Paint, 88 Base coupe auto.
Turning white on top, like owner.
Leaks a little, like owner.
Doesn't smoke, unlike owner

quote Originally posted by DtheC: There should be some major reprocutions heaped on the Canadian agents that put the thumb on this guy. Nastyness is also due to the US guys working this case for not verifying the quality of the alegations about this guy.

This whole situation stinks. An innocent guy goes through hell for no reason. It could just as easily have been you... me... any one of us.

It appears that the Canadian authorities had no idea what was in store for this fella once they mistakenly alerted their American counterparts.

quote From the link: After Arar was detained in New York, Canadian authorities apparently were unaware the Americans were preparing to send him to Syria, according to the commission finding. He was held for questioning for 12 days, then flown by jet to Jordan and driven to Syria. He was beaten, forced to confess to having trained in Afghanistan -- where he never has been -- and then kept in a coffin-size dungeon for 10 months before he was released, the Canadian inquiry commission found. The RCMP contact, Inspector Michel Cabana, "was under the impression that Mr. Arar would only be detained for a short time," O'Connor's report said. "In his view, Mr. Arar was being held in a country with many of the same values as Canada."

I guess not...

It seems bizarre downright criminal that the Americans would take this Canadian citizen all the way to Syria to have him held and tortured. What the hell is going on? This is really quite disturbing news.

OUR country is running amuck.

quote Originally posted by Patrick: What the hell is going on?

This is the product byproduct of one ounce of security.

Good timing on the story with elections next month.

Really too bad for this guy, more than likely not the only one too.

Probably sounds harsh but the reasoning behind this action is one of the ONLY actual things are federal government is supposed to be doing for us. MAYBE he confessed to something he did not do so he would not confess to something he did.

Another thing to ponder is where the original info came from. No I do not mean the Canadians iether. Putting out false info is a powerful tool and possibly this is just a way for the combatants to further tie our hands. Paranoid? damn straight!

quote Originally posted by Red88FF: MAYBE he confessed to something he did not do so he would not confess to something he did.

Sure, and MAYBE he was the second man to walk on the moon.

You've got to wonder what happens to people who are falsely accused and detained and tortured who do not have their home country trying to find out what the hell is going on.

This idea of American agents taking people to other countries (to circumvent American laws) in order to torture "confessions" out of them is really twisted. If I was an American, I'd be very worried about who in my federal government is behind these decisions. As a Canadian, I'm shocked that a fellow citizen has been treated in this manner by our closest neighbor (and supposedly our best friends).

This is something you might expect from a third-world country, from some banana republic, but not from the most powerful nation on the planet.

What's that about absolute power corrupting absolutely...

quote Originally posted by Patrick: This idea of American agents taking people to other countries (to circumvent American laws) in order to torture "confessions" out of them is really twisted.

And NOW the American agents involved in these "methods" are scrambling to aquire insurance..................incase they are later sued.
That's why the powers that be don't want these prisoners to have thier day in U.S. courts.
Becouse if it is proven that thier rights were violated......................somebody will have to pay.

And THAT's why they were NOT held in prisons on U.S. soil.
The "Good Guys" wanted to deny them thier LEGAL rights, as well as thier HUMAN rights!
No other reason.
Despite what they keep telling us.

I don't know why people continue to NOT be APPALLED by the fact we are using SECRET PRISONS!
IN FOREIGN COUNTRIES!
Doesn't anyone remember history?!
Secret prisons are for getting away with stuff.

When you CONDONE these things to be done to OTHERS, you are ONE STEP CLOSER to having it done to YOU!!!
Read your history.
ALL the bad guys have used them.

And REMEMBER, the government was NEVER going to tell us about them!
Someone broke the story, catching the people we are supposed to TRUST, with thier pants down.
But they were NEVER going to tell us.

What did they have to hide from us?
Now we know.

quote Originally posted by Patrick: Sure, and MAYBE he was the second man to walk on the moon. You've got to wonder what happens to people who are falsely accused and detained and tortured who do not have their home country trying to find out what the hell is going on. This idea of American agents taking people to other countries (to circumvent American laws) in order to torture "confessions" out of them is really twisted. If I was an American, I'd be very worried about who in my federal government is behind these decisions. As a Canadian, I'm shocked that a fellow citizen has been treated in this manner by our closest neighbor (and supposedly our best friends). This is something you might expect from a third-world country, from some banana republic, but not from the most powerful nation on the planet. What's that about absolute power corrupting absolutely...

I knew I was going to get some flak for that post. Yup I think it is serious business! and yup, innocent people are incarcerated and wrongly put to death down here too.

Torture and the threat of torture IS a viable means to get people to talk. This method was DIRECTLY responsible for the thwarting of a terrorist plot to blow up a few city blocks of down town Seattle a few years ago. Sorry, I had hippie buddies down there protesting, sorry my relatives live down there, Sorry but the methods in question stopped the explosives from getting here during transport from Canada. This is only one example I know of and I can guarantee that they don't boast about where and how they get there info in other cases.

Bummer for this dude if he is innocent, but I am sick and tired of this pc attitude on this subject when it has been saving lives with numbers possibly in the thousands. NO I do not personally like it, NO I am not pro torture. NO I am not happy that things have turned this ugly. BUT I want our side to WIN this one. I want my government to do WHATEVER they can to keep me, my family an my fellow Americans safe from this threat. OH and my good neighbors to the north and south too :-)

quote Originally posted by Red88FF: I want my government to do WHATEVER they can to keep me, my family an my fellow Americans safe from this threat.

But THAT'S JUST IT!
You have traded an OUTSIDE threat for an INSIDE threat!
A VISIBLE threat for an INVISIBLE threat!

If you believe in getting rid of the enemy, BY ANY MEANS NECESSARY (which your post implies), then you must ALSO believe in TORTURING the children over there, to gain information on weather thier PARENTS are terrorists or have conections to terrorists?
Or killing the the kids becouse they live in a culture that ENCOURAGES them to become terrorests when they grow up?
I mean, by your thinking, wouldn't that stop terrorists AT THE SOURCE?
Get rid of all the kids, and they would soon run out of terrorists!

You want your government to "do WHATEVER they can to keep me, my family an my fellow Americans safe from this threat.".
So WHERE does "whatever" end?

I'll tell you.
It begins & ends with "The Rule Of Law".
With out it, we are lost.
Good Guys follow the rules.
Bad Guys don't.
That's what makes good guys GOOD, and bad guys BAD!

Consider what the other side does ALREADY.

I'd rather be tortured then beheaded, hung from a bridge and then set on fire. (and thats just what they do of the top not interigation.

No one has any better ideas. It's easy to critisize, and I sure empathize with what this guy went through, but what other options are there? As long as people demand to be protected, there are going to be casualties, there just isn't anything 100% fool-proof, in ANYTHING, much less in war, or the process of collecting information. Eveeryone wants everything to be completely painless; they want to feel safe and be protected by their government (one of its primary tasks as far as I'm concerned) but they don't want any soldiers to get hurt, they don't want any civilians to be harmed, they want there to be no mistakes, they want it to be fast, and they don't want it to cost anything.
When are people going to wake up and realize that things in life just don't work perfectly.

quote Originally posted by Red88FF: I knew I was going to get some flak for that post.

I wasn’t so much criticizing your post as I was simply expressing my shock at the whole story.

quote Originally posted by Red88FF: Torture and the threat of torture IS a viable means to get people to talk.

Oh sure, and it’s been proven yet again by this case that people will confess to anything to get the torture to stop. That could’ve been YOU confessing to whatever it was they wanted a confession about.

quote Originally posted by Red88FF: Bummer for this dude if he is innocent...

What’s this “if he is innocent” crap? He was found to be innocent by all investigative parties. What more do you need? ****, the guy is found to be innocent after being tortured and held in a coffin-size dungeon for ten months and all you can say is "Bummer"? Good gawd...

quote Originally posted by Red88FF: ...but I am sick and tired of this pc attitude

Well, excuse me. There are those of us who believe that the ways of the western world are worthwhile saving. I thought we in the west believed in individual human rights and all the rest of that “pc” nonsense. Apparently not...

quote Originally posted by Red88FF: I want my government to do WHATEVER they can to keep me, my family an my fellow Americans safe from this threat.

That is one scary statement. Think about it - you want your government to do “WHATEVER”. Well, you must be delighted to hear that they've already started, and that is truly frightening.

quote Originally posted by Red88FF: BUT I want our side to WIN this one.

If we allow our governments (American, Canadian, British, etc) to do “WHATEVER” to help keep us “safe”, then I’m afraid that we, the people, have already lost...

quote Originally posted by Patrick: This is really quite disturbing news.

NEWS ?????

Where you been for the past 5 years or so ? The only thing that can possibly considered "news" about the whole shebang when it comes to fascism in government is that a few more people are waking up to the same facts some of us learned years ago.

try these for daily reading. www.rense.com www.rumormillnews.com www.surfingtheapocalypse.com www.prisonplanet.com www.whatreallyhappened.com

Thanks for the eloquent replies, I have to work so I will be back to this later.

Phranc, Glad somebody else has a grip on this.

I do not appreciate the practice of editing the post to only show the negative. I said it is a proven practice! AND I NAMED A BIG EXAMPLE!, why not leave that in as well?. I also implied I am not thrilled about it.

quote Originally posted by Patrick: If we in the western world condone torture in order to win the war against terrorists, then why isn't this torture being done in our OWN prisons? Why are we sneaking SUSPECTED terrorists off to some god-forsaken country to do it? Why did US officials refuse to cooperate with the Canadian inquiry. Does this not tell you something? Is this the way we really want our western governments to operate? Something is awfully fishy here...

Obviously they did that to avoid the interference of whatever self-interested bleeding-heart organizations would impose themselves on the process. I know how that sounds but I in general have a hard-on about groups like the ACLU anyway, and we know those guys would be all over this. I just don't think this is an *easy* issue. Let's face it, it's a method that's been used by all sides for ages, and an awful lot of information has been collected by its use. OK, so once in a while someone "innocent" gets caught in the crossfire and may suffer unjustly. Is that one person's suffering worth the thousands of lives that have otherwise been saved by the process that was used on him, and actually culled valuable information that prevented another attack? I think too many people confuse "acceptance" of a particular thing, as endorsement, aggreement with, or approval of that thing. I disagree with that. I think we have to sometimes accept things we find utterly distasteful, or even in some cases, abhorrent, when those things in their disgust serve a greater good. Problem is, most people are so incapable of being objective, they can't step out of their own skin long enough to recognize the possible value of something they vehemently disagree with. I also have to point out the flaws in the good guys/bad guys assertions. There are no good guys or bad guys, we're at war, trying our best to survive, and hopefully emerge in better shape than the other guy. We're ALL bad guys.This isn't a war to protect our constitution or civil rights, this is a war to try and eradicate an element that plagues this planet. A group of people with no conscience, no borders, no remorse, no fear, and no honor. And as much as I would love for this to be a John Wayne movie where the good-guys plays entirely by the rules and emerges victorious with his dignity intact, it just ain't. We are a$$hole deep in a dangerous, bloody, viscious battle with an enemy that isn't bound by ANY rules. In EVERY event, the "rules" are supposed to make the playing field level for all participants. There's no way to win a war when your hands are tied behind your back, which is exactly what groups like the ACLU and others would do if they had their way. We have no choice but to sneak around, and unfortuntely bend or even break some of our own rules. Those rules are designed to hopefully promote a "civilization", unfortunately, we aren't really at war with a civil enemy. Breaking or bending some rules is likely the ONLY way we'll ever end this war, and keep civilian casualties to a minimum. Sadly, there will *still* be some civilian casualties.

[This message has been edited by Taijiguy (edited 09-19-2006).]

quote Originally posted by Red88FF: Torture and the threat of torture IS a viable means to get people to talk. This method was DIRECTLY responsible for the thwarting of a terrorist plot to blow up a few city blocks of down town Seattle a few years ago. Sorry, I had hippie buddies down there protesting, sorry my relatives live down there, Sorry but the methods in question stopped the explosives from getting here during transport from Canada. This is only one example I know of and I can guarantee that they don't boast about where and how they get there info in other cases.

What the heck are you talking about with your example? Only thing I can think of is the Algerian that got caught by customs agents crossing the Canadian border into Port Angeles in an attempt to bomb LAX. There was no torture saving the day, custom agents just found nitrogyclerin and other stuff in the guy's car.

The "Make Us Safe" crowd doesn't care how it's done. Just do it. It's not just Anti Terror either. The same sort of retarded thinking is what is behind the CPSC's crusade to ban any thing that can hurt you in any possible way. CPSC and fear of litigation is gutting science education and private research. Thanks to the Make Us Safe morons we'll be a third world country before long. We already are lagging a bunch of countries in an alarmingly large number of fields of education. We're pissing away genuine talent at an amazing rate.

Do terrorists deserve anything that happens to them? Absolutely. But it's like the Death Penalty for other crimes. You have to be absolutely certain you've got the right people. When left to Bureaucrats like the bulk of RCMP, FBI, CIA, and most other "security agencies," you're going to have spectacular screw ups. Likely sooner rather than later. This is just one example of many "anti terror" efforts gone wrong. You should look into what happened around both the last RNC and DNC conventions plus Critical Mass and other non violent events in NYC. Then there's that thing called the No Fly list... God help you if you are on that by mistake or because someone doesn't happen to like you. Never mind that you aren't a threat to anyone. TSA? Their's a joke. I can assure you that if you really want a weopon on an airplane that TSA isn't going to stop it. DHS? An oxymoron at best. ICE? They can't even manage to slow let alone stop the flood of illegal entries into the U.S.

If you think the Dem's will protect you any better than the GOP... The DNC did as much if not more to keep all forms of protest away from their last convention as was done around the RNC show.

------------------
Dr. Ian Malcolm: Yeah, but your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should.
(Jurasic Park)

The Ogre's Fiero Cave (It's also at the top of every forum page...)

quote Originally posted by Boondawg: But THAT'S JUST IT! You have traded an OUTSIDE threat for an INSIDE threat! A VISIBLE threat for an INVISIBLE threat! !

I think you have that one backwards. The our govenment is and allways has been the visible threat.

quote Originally posted by Boondawg: If you believe in getting rid of the enemy, BY ANY MEANS NECESSARY (which your post implies), then you must ALSO believe in TORTURING the children over there, to gain information on weather thier PARENTS are terrorists or have conections to terrorists? Or killing the the kids becouse they live in a culture that ENCOURAGES them to become terrorests when they grow up? I mean, by your thinking, wouldn't that stop terrorists AT THE SOURCE? Get rid of all the kids, and they would soon run out of terrorists! !

Oh there's the children angle again! No, not even I will go that far. This is simply ridiculous. BUT I have to admit it might put an end to the problem. And this is part of the problem! I have no doubt that given the chance they would gladly and enthusiastically saw the head off of my kids!

quote Originally posted by Boondawg: You want your government to "do WHATEVER they can to keep me, my family an my fellow Americans safe from this threat.". So WHERE does "whatever" end? !

You left out our friends to the north and south. Ya I know this is a slippery slope and I have had a great deal of trouble personally coming to grip with this, on the surface it really goes against most of what I have believed in. One that will trade security for freedom deserves neither etc. etc.
I just think we should fight to win or do nothing. If you don't like the torture method? how about depleting some of our older nuclear arsenal.

quote Originally posted by Boondawg: I'll tell you. It begins & ends with "The Rule Of Law". With out it, we are lost. Good Guys follow the rules. Bad Guys don't. That's what makes good guys GOOD, and bad guys BAD!

Sounds pretty good on the surface! BUT other than this particular and unfortunate circumstance the enemy is NOT my fellow American (or Canadian) and has (in my opinion) no right to the protection of OUR laws! they are the enemy and should expect no quarter!

What I am starting to see is yet another war being lost at home by fickle panty wastes that wave the flag and yell " make them pay! one minute and then attack our own instead of rooting for the home team.

How many of you guys actually watched the Burke beheading? I did. And no I don't want to hear anything about his poor excuse for a father and his worthless pinko fag attitude. Watching that video was a F'ing HORRIBLE experience that I will carry with me the rest of my life! MUCH MUCH different than hearing about it by way of that pretty news chick.

quote Originally posted by Scott-Wa: What the heck are you talking about with your example? Only thing I can think of is the Algerian that got caught by customs agents crossing the Canadian border into Port Angeles in an attempt to bomb LAX. There was no torture saving the day, custom agents just found nitrogyclerin and other stuff in the guy's car.

I normally think you are a pretty well informed dude. Maybe you were to busy protesting. This was a huge deal at the trade talks in Seattle some years back! I will repeat here except that I will add that the info came from the threat of extradition from the Philippines to Egypt of some alquada linked (spelling) terrorists that had been caught there. They were thumbing their noses at the authorities and looking forward to being taken to the US! when they found out what was planned for them they climbed over each other to strike a deal! and spilled the beans This was also gone over in a previous thread about torture here on the group. I swear you took part in that discussion!
Again.
Torture and the threat of torture IS a viable means to get people to talk. This method was DIRECTLY responsible for the thwarting of a terrorist plot to blow up a few city blocks of down town Seattle a few years ago. Sorry, I had hippie buddies down there protesting, sorry my relatives live down there, Sorry but the methods in question stopped the explosives from getting here during transport from Canada. This is only one example I know of and I can guarantee that they don't boast about where and how they get there info in other cases.

quote Originally posted by Boondawg: But THAT'S JUST IT! You have traded an OUTSIDE threat for an INSIDE threat! A VISIBLE threat for an INVISIBLE threat!

I am far more terrorized by the American government than I am any "terrorist" threat.
This country needs an enema.

quote Originally posted by Red88FF: Well this is quite possibly the stupidest thing I have ever read on this forum! For Christ sakes! didn't you read a word he said? Any American worth a pinch of Sh!t would lay down his life to save a thousand of his fellow countrymen! Somehow I get he impression you would not though! It is all numbers guy! Even in our own legal system that you seem to think the enemy deserves, we convict, jail and sometimes execute innocent people.. for the greater good.

Forty people on flight 93 did exactly that. I suppose some people got it, some don't.

quote Originally posted by Red88FF: Torture and the threat of torture IS a viable means to get people to talk. Bummer for this dude if he is innocent, but I am sick and tired of this pc attitude on this subject when it has been saving lives with numbers possibly in the thousands. NO I do not personally like it, NO I am not pro torture. NO I am not happy that things have turned this ugly. BUT I want our side to WIN this one. I want my government to do WHATEVER they can to keep me, my family an my fellow Americans safe from this threat. OH and my good neighbors to the north and south too :-)

I think you are Osama bin Laden's 3rd in command. You trained with him in Afghanistan. You helped with logistics and passports to get the 9/11 hijackers into the U.S.

Therefore, we need to ship you off to Syria and interrogate you until you confess to these allegations. And trust me, we can get you to confess.

Bummer for you if you're innocent, but we're going to do WHATEVER we have to do to stay safe from terrorists, even if it means torturing innocent people to get false confessions to things they didn't do.

Thankfully, I don't believe that. I don't know about you, but I'd rather a murderer go free than an innocent person be imprisoned. The ends do not and can not justify the means. Think about it. Hell, if I didn't specifically say right now that what I just typed above is an EXAMPLE and not FACT, some DHS goon could read that, pick you up, and actually ship you off to Syria to do just what I suggested. And after enough torture you WOULD confess to anything.

If that is the method used to protect you from terrorism, you are now in more danger from your own government than you ever were from terrorists. And it doesn't even matter if you'd be willing to sacrifice your life like this because that violation of your rights is WRONG.

In Nazi Germany, many people praised Hitler's rule becaue he made the trains run on time and it was safe to walk in the streets. It wasn't the end result that was the problem, it was the method to get it.

[This message has been edited by Formula88 (edited 09-20-2006).]

quote Originally posted by Formula88: I don't know about you, but I'd rather a murderer go free than an innocent person be imprisoned.

Tell me that when he moves in next to you.

Everyone wants the rules to work in their favor....to sctrict , to soft....middleground.....

If the compromise makes me and my kids safer... I'm for that.

I'm NOT for tourture, Just want to say that....and that is a shame. Nobody should EVER be harmed, but I am for racial profiling.... I know he's a comedian, but Carlos Mencia has the right idea.....

I know it sounds callous, and 84bill is about ready to drop bricks as he reads this, but I am for a strong government. If that means they do things that I don't want to know about... so be it. I say conduct your secret opps, AS LONG AS IT'S TO PROTECT THE US, NOT IF IT'S FOR MONETARY GAIN.


Here's the difference: If you are a terrorist, you probably have a lot to hide, if your a working mom of 2, or you work your 8-5, I don't see that you would have a lot to hide.....

The problem with our Government is it's polaticians, and how twisted they have become. I think our polaticians are overpaid , and very corupt.

[This message has been edited by intlcutlass (edited 09-20-2006).]

quote Originally posted by Formula88: Thankfully, I don't believe that. I don't know about you, but I'd rather a murderer go free than an innocent person be imprisoned. The ends do not and can not justify the means. Think about it. Hell, if I didn't specifically say right now that what I just typed above is an EXAMPLE and not FACT, some DHS goon could read that, pick you up, and actually ship you off to Syria to do just what I suggested. And after enough torture you WOULD confess to anything. If that is the method used to protect you from terrorism, you are now in more danger from your own government than you ever were from terrorists. And it doesn't even matter if you'd be willing to sacrifice your life like this because that violation of your rights is WRONG. In Nazi Germany, many people praised Hitler's rule becaue he made the trains run on time and it was safe to walk in the streets. It wasn't the end result that was the problem, it was the method to get it.

Again! this investigation started 2 1/2 years ago! why do you think it is big news now!
More than likely any spooks monitoring the internet would be more interested in how YOU would have this knowledge and why YOU are pointing the finger at me. The fact that the Canadians could not sort through their bad information because they were under some kind of pressure (from who?) is nothing short of pathetic, and is the key to what ensued.

Ok, for starters it's not one murderer for one innocent. My analogy using our legal system is REAL not fiction and is from what I can see the best in the world. Although I did witness the top lawmaker in our country set free after lying to the federal grand jury. Ok let's just keep it simple so everyone can understand, it is not nor will it ever be a perfect world.

I DO understand your stance on this though, I just do not agree with it.

quote Originally posted by Red88FF: Ok, for starters it's not one murderer for one innocent. My analogy using our legal system is REAL not fiction and is from what I can see the best in the world. Although I did witness the top lawmaker in our country set free after lying to the federal grand jury. Ok let's just keep it simple so everyone can understand, it is not nor will it ever be a perfect world. I DO understand your stance on this though, I just do not agree with it.

History has shown someone who's being tortured will eventually say anything to get the torture to stop. Do you disagree with that?

So, how does using these tactics improve security, if the answers provided can't be trusted? Sure in some cases it may be true, but that's not far from saying "kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out."

We could protect the U.S. from radical Islamic terrorists by killing every Muslim in the world - Saudi, Iraq, U.S. Canadian, doesn't matter. That would remove any Islamic threat, right? Would you support that? If not, then the line has to be drawn somewhere. Where do you draw that line?

We went into Iraq based on faulty intelligence about WMD. Let's try to move towards gathering accurate intelligence and not just getting the answers we're looking for.

So like I said in my post, all you guys are opposed to using "torture" (which I think is a very broad term and actually hasn't been defined in this post, so just pick your favorite movie method) what are you suggesting we use as an alternative? Don't just complain and say it shouldn't be done, tell us what we should do instead? Just bring the guy a cup of coffee, ask him pretty please to tell us what we want, and then call it a day if he refuses? Or do we just give up on interrogation practices altogether and hope for the best? Give us some alternatives.

I just don't know how to explain to some of you how very isolated in your thinking you are being.
What good is History if we do not learn from past mistakes?

We CAN defeat our enemies, without becoming them!

Were did people get the idea that the best way to defeat our enemies was INFORMATION GATHERING?
"What are they planing to do to us?"
"What are they thinking?"
"What are they talking about?"
Why would we even want to fight a "reactionary" war?
We will ALWAYS be one-step-behind in that kind of war!

Information is the key?
The importence of gathering said information by any means necessary?
And the VALIDITY of information gathered in that fashion?
Just how good was the information that got us there IN THE FIRST PLACE?!

Now, before I am drug away to some back-woods country & imprisoned for being un-american, check this.

I was born in this country, as was my linage, farther back then any boat pulling onto it's shores.
I have benifitted from this countries bounty since birth.
I hope for every country to live as free as we do. Even freer.
I believe in destroying tyranny.
I hate bullies & bad guys.

War is about killing.
Fine.
But not torture.
I would rather see a man DEAD, than tortured.
Not becouse of what it does to him, but becouse of what it does to US.

It is not, nor ever has been wise to fight a war based on "What are they planning to do to us?".
We need to be fighting OUR war, not THIERS!

Support torture & secret prisons?
I'll tell you what.
I will change my views when a P.O.W. from W.W.1, W.W.2, The Korean War, or Viet Nam supports them.
THEY were tortured for information, also.
Was THAT o.k.?
I DARE you to tell them, "Well, the enemy had EVERY RIGHT to get information 'by any means necessary!'"

History.

quote Originally posted by Taijiguy: So like I said in my post, all you guys are opposed to using "torture" (which I think is a very broad term and actually hasn't been defined in this post, so just pick your favorite movie method) what are you suggesting we use as an alternative? Don't just complain and say it shouldn't be done, tell us what we should do instead? Just bring the guy a cup of coffee, ask him pretty please to tell us what we want, and then call it a day if he refuses? Or do we just give up on interrogation practices altogether and hope for the best? Give us some alternatives.

I don't have to be an expert on interrogation to know that torture is morally wrong and more to the point, provides unreliable information.
However, an expert on interrogation would know far more ways to extract information than I do, including ones that don't use torture.

If there's no other way to get information, why don't all investigators use torture? Police detectives could certainly get more confessions if they could torture the suspect, now couldn't they? Next time a cop pulls you over for speeding, is it ok for him to break your fingers when he asks you if you were speeding and then lock you up until you confess? If not, again, where do you draw the line?

I'd suggest phychological trickery as one possible option. Truth drugs are another option.

quote Originally posted by Taijiguy: So like I said in my post, all you guys are opposed to using "torture", what are you suggesting we use as an alternative? Don't just complain and say it shouldn't be done, tell us what we should do instead? Give us some alternatives.

OK.
1. Screw information gathering.
Trust only our EYES and our WITS.
People lie.
NEVER trust your EARS.

2. Fight OUR war.
Make a plan, put it on the ground (not behind secret prison doors), engage it, see it through.

3. Prisonors are imprisoned by the people of the land they are fighting on, in the country they are fighting, and tried by that very same country.
If they can be tried at all.
I'm not sure if it is a crime to follow orders and/or fight in a war. (not terrorists, soldiers.)
If not, imprision them untill war's end, then let that countrie's new powers decide what to do about them.

Ask yourself this:
Do soldiers deserve respect?
Why?
For the job they do?
Or is it becouse they fight honorably?
Does that go for ALL soldiers, reguardless of what side they are on?
Can soldiers fight honorably, reguardless of the side they are on?
Is torture honorable?
If a side fights dishonorably, should an honorable man abandon his honor?

Soldier, Baker, Candlestick maker.
Men are men.
It's thier ACTIONS that make them honorable.

The SAME goes for the countries of Men.

[This message has been edited by Boondawg (edited 09-20-2006).]

Your entire post has nothing to do with the quote box (from me) you placed above it. But I will beat this horse with you anyway. My ending line was "I DO understand your stance on this though, I just do not agree with it." Not sure why that is not enough to end this.


Edited becuse most of my reply did not make it in for some reason.

[This message has been edited by Red88FF (edited 09-20-2006).]

quote Originally posted by Red88FF: Ok you must have a torture statistic source you will share with the rest of us,,,,,, let's have it. Since MOST of this would obviously be secret I won't hold my breath.

All you have to do is read some of the accounts of U.S. P.O.W.s from W.W.1, W.W.2, The Korean War, or The Viet Nam Conflict.
Did they give up the information they were being tortured for?
From MY reading, most did not.
And the information some DID give up, was either FALSE and/or of little or no value, and had little or NO impact on the battle, OR the war.

History.

John McCain might be a good source of info on this.

You asked me to provide statistics about torture not working. Look at the link at the beginning of this thread. There's one.

You provided one example of torture used successfully. I suppose you have a source to verify your example?

Red88FF, I understand your point of view and I do disagree with you. I won't just get over it because I believe that your rights and my rights are worth more than that. I believe that you and those who believe like you do are some of the greatest threats to freedom we face, because you're willing to give up your freedom for the illusion of security. I won't argue with you, but I would beseech you not to give up your freedoms and rights so easily. You may miss them once they're gone. And I'll leave it at that.


"If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen."
-- Samuel Adams

quote Originally posted by Boondawg: All you have to do is read some of the accounts of U.S. P.O.W.s from W.W.1, W.W.2, The Korean War, or The Viet Nam Conflict. Did they give up the information they were being tortured for? From MY reading, most did not. And the information some DID give up, was either FALSE and/or of little or no value, and had little or NO impact on the battle, OR the war. History.

Sorry, that is not good enough. That is NOT statistics. Because of the vary nature of secret intelligence gathering we will never see any either, that was kind of my point. This conflict cannot be compared to those wars either.

Let's come to grips with the fact that you are not going to convince me, nor I you and just leave it at that.

.

[This message has been edited by Formula88 (edited 09-20-2006).]