The Pope quotes the 14th century Byzantine emperor Manuel II Paleologus...
"He said, I quote, 'Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached.'"
Now this is just a part of a long speech, and no context is given... hell none needed.
Instant reponse... "Of course as we know the meaning of jihad can only be understood by Muslims," Budianto told the crowd. "Only Muslims can understand what jihad is. It is impossible that jihad can be linked with violence, we Muslims have no violent character."
Followed by... Authorities were investigating the motives of Molotov cocktail attacks on three churches in the West Bank city of Nablus, following a day of Palestinian protests against the pope's remarks. No one was hurt and the churches were not badly damaged.
The two faced BS about the Islamic history is the part that needs apologizing for. The last 100 years of the Islamic world is a repetition of violence being used to spread the faith... civil war after civil war to overthrow governments and install Islamic clerics as rulers with the Koran as the law. The time period being quoted had a similar situation going on, with the Christian churchs playing the same game.
"It is impossible to link jihad with violence, we Muslims have no violent character." Wow... there is a blanket statement that doesn't hold up in any way shape or form.
Why does it sound like I'm 'flip flopping' in this post? Because in prior posts I've contrasted what people say the Koran says and what the Koran actually says... and there are cases where it most definitely calls for violence, taking a Popes remarks as an insult isn't one. Here someone is making the same kind of broad statement that just flies in the face of reality. There are obviously violent muslims, that's not to say all muslims or even the majority of muslims, but to say that while someone is fire bombing a church over something the Pope quoted... or a cartoon of Mohammed... it sure seems that there are a bunch of muslims with violent characters and also a bunch of two faced lying ones.
BTW to the person that said there aren't any christian palestinians... there are and they have churchs.
We in the West in general simply do not understand the Islamic mindset. I am reading an excellent book written by a former terrorist Walid Shoebat. He goes into great detail about the root of terrorism. Here is a link to the book on Amazon.com: Why I Left Jihad
Was just reading on an Australian newsite that Muslims in Iraq have announced their plans to destroy the vatican. The sad thing is, even if the nutballs succeeded in such an attack we would essentially have our hands tied and would not be able to do anything. Islamic imans would claim that it was a radical group, and that their actions were not representive of the true peaceful way of the Islamic faith. That is why I believe ultimately Islam is going to win. We are to PC and used to taking the high road to ever stand up against them when they are obviously waging an all out war against us.
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03:12 PM
D B Cooper Member
Posts: 3141 From: East Detroit, MI Registered: Jul 2005
Pope to world-----Islam is violent. Islam to word-----Pope better take that back or we'll riot, burn cars and churches,kill nuns, issue a writ of exacution and do other random acts of violence.
Just wait till a group of Muslims blows up a Catholic church in Dublin or something. If they want a Holy War, that just might start one.
Sounds like this could very well happen. Just saw on the news Muslims are now firebombing churches over in the west bank. Two churches were burnt to the ground, one over 170 year old. Ironically, none of these two churchs were of catholic denominiation. In other areas of the west bank, five other churches were firebombed and sprayed with gunfire.
The real tragedy here is the pope is now bending over backwards to apologize. To these heathens, all this will do is send a message of weakenss and that all us non-mulims are a bunch of cowards. He should have stood his ground and let the ensuing riots prove his point to the world community. Now by apoligzing for his remarks, no matter how many churches the muslims firebomb, no matter how many innocents they kill, in the eyes of the media the pope will be to blame, not the fanatics carrying out the acts of violence.
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02:47 PM
Scott-Wa Member
Posts: 5392 From: Tacoma, WA, USA Registered: Mar 2002
Maybe linked or may not... sad either way. A nun working in a hospital murdered.
It's in Somalia where much like Afghanistan, an Islamic fundamentalist group fills the void left by anarchy.
"Somalia has been without an effective central government since warlords overthrew it's longtime dictator in 1991 and divided the nation into fiefdoms. The Islamic fundamentalists have stepped into the vacuum as an alternative military and political power.
The current interim government was established two years ago with the support of the United Nations, but has failed to assert any power outside its base in Baidoa, 150 miles from Mogadishu.
The Islamic group, which seized the capital and much of southern Somalia this summer, is credited with bringing a semblance of order to the country after years of anarchy, but some of its leaders have been linked to al Qaeda and there are fears of an emerging Taliban-style regime."
Sounds JUST like what led to the Taliban gaining control in Afghanistan. The people wanted anything that was better than total anarchy where warlords (Northern Alliance... our allies, used to be our enemy with the Soviets) were randomly pillaging and killing villagers, the Taliban imposed order. Somalia is in the same boat.
[This message has been edited by Scott-Wa (edited 09-17-2006).]
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03:11 PM
CTFieroGT87 Member
Posts: 2520 From: Royal Oak, MI Registered: Oct 2002
Pope to world-----Islam is violent. Islam to word-----Pope better take that back or we'll riot, burn cars and churches,kill nuns, issue a writ of exacution and do other random acts of violence.
It should be this...
Islam to word-----Pope better take that back WHILE we'll riot, burn cars and churches,kill nuns, issue a writ of exacution and do other random acts of violence.
The pope says Islam is based (or has teachings rooted in) violence, the Muslims cry and start destroying churches. Hmm, I wonder how long we'll bury our heads in the sand.
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05:02 PM
Cheever3000 Member
Posts: 12398 From: The Man from Tallahassee Registered: Aug 2001
Islam says that Jesus was a prophet of God but his message was changed and distorted by the apostles such that none of the New Testament is valid scripture.
Paul dedicated his life to spreading the Gospel and walked 20,000 miles throughtout the Roman Empire in doing it. Islam holds that Paul was a deceiver and therefore worthy of condemnation. Frankly I'm insulted that Islam views Paul as a liar and cheat.
In my opinion Islam is the biggest lie perpetratred on mankind since the Nazis. The Islamic leaders propagate a victim mentality that lays all the blame for problems in the Ismalic world to Jews and Christians. They ought to look in the mirror.
Although my beliefs are more Lutheram than Catholic I applaud the Pope. While I think that it is appropriate to explain the context of his remarks I think the onus is on Islam to show that they are willing to respect religious diversity. However I don't see this happening anytime soon. Personally I'm going to hold firm in my beliefs and not fall into the Western media's trap that we can win this battle through appeasement.
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08:55 PM
blackrams Member
Posts: 31841 From: Hattiesburg, MS, USA Registered: Feb 2003
If you're looking for a reason to raise a ruckus, it's easy to find one. Muslim estreemist's know they have most of the world terrified due to the terroristic activities that have taken place all over the world. It's just like back in grade school, there's a bully that picks on the other kids on the playground. Till the world stands up to the bully, he can get away with just about anything he wants. Somewhere on this forum I read this, I can't take credit or blame for thinking it up but I do agree with it. "Not all Muslim's are terrorists but, most terrorist are Muslim." It appears to be the truth.
------------------ Ron Freedom isn't Free, it's paid for with the blood and dreams of those that have gone before us. My imagination is the only limiting factor to my Fiero. Well, there is that money issue.
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09:25 PM
Indyellowgt Member
Posts: 1950 From: Alfred,Maine,Fiero Country,USA Registered: Dec 2000
If you're looking for a reason to raise a ruckus, it's easy to find one. Muslim estreemist's know they have most of the world terrified due to the terroristic activities that have taken place all over the world. It's just like back in grade school, there's a bully that picks on the other kids on the playground. Till the world stands up to the bully, he can get away with just about anything he wants. Somewhere on this forum I read this, I can't take credit or blame for thinking it up but I do agree with it. "Not all Muslim's are terrorists but, most terrorist are Muslim." It appears to be the truth.
Sadly enough, that's true. And until they see how fast we pave glass parking lots, they'll keep on doing this. It's ridiculous. Kinda like a man being terrified of his Chihuahua(sp?). And the man's afraid to kick the dog, because even though his family knows what's going on, they are so ignorant that they'll call the SPCA when he does so.
I frequent another forum that has whats known as The Basement where discussions such as this are held. In it there is someone that is attempting to do some research into Islam to better understand what all is going on. Things that are turning up are turning my stomach. I suggest you do your own research.
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10:13 PM
Formula88 Member
Posts: 53788 From: Raleigh NC Registered: Jan 2001
I frequent another forum that has whats known as The Basement where discussions such as this are held. In it there is someone that is attempting to do some research into Islam to better understand what all is going on. Things that are turning up are turning my stomach. I suggest you do your own research.
Got a link?
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10:18 PM
Scott-Wa Member
Posts: 5392 From: Tacoma, WA, USA Registered: Mar 2002
Wow, nice propoganda there... gotta love the Allah is an idol discovered by archeologists in the 1940's part... ie. how to make their god NOT the christian god. And the dark, hairy, big nosed, sunken eyed terrorist... yeah, that's the ticket, let's build a stereotype, looks almost exactly like the stereotype the arabs use for jews.. amazing isn't it. I notice they manage to blame the Catholics in the process.
[This message has been edited by Scott-Wa (edited 09-17-2006).]
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10:51 PM
USFiero Member
Posts: 4873 From: Everywhere and Middle of Nowhere Registered: Mar 2002
Wow, isthiswhereiputausername?, those are some heavy duty tracts, and I have read quite a few. It always struck me as odd that an angel spoke to Mohammed and not god directly. From the Christian standpoint, Satan is also an angel, and the "Father of Lies", "Deceiver", etc. From what I gather, Muslims feel they are a legitamite heir to God's favor by being Abraham's firstborn, albiet by a woman not his wife, although it was his wife's idea. Abraham ultimately sent Ishmael and his mother into the wilderness and God protected them, promising them they would become a 'great nation'. 'Great' in this case means 'big', not 'well-regarded'. Of course everyone who attended Sunday School knows that Abraham had Isaac at some late age (he and his wife) and there is the Bible story that God demanded a sacrifice, and Abraham was going to offer up Isaac until a ram was miraculously provided at the last moment. Muslims believe it was Ishmael that was being offered. The tracts were interesting, I'll have to read some other viewpoints noted in them. It is obvious that the Muslim faith is at a place that Christianity found itself during the Crusades and Inquisitions.
[This message has been edited by USFiero (edited 09-18-2006).]
Wow, nice propoganda there... gotta love the Allah is an idol discovered by archeologists in the 1940's part... ie. how to make their god NOT the christian god. And the dark, hairy, big nosed, sunken eyed terrorist... yeah, that's the ticket, let's build a stereotype, looks almost exactly like the stereotype the arabs use for jews.. amazing isn't it. I notice they manage to blame the Catholics in the process.
No Scott, whats amazing is when you Google Sahih Bukhari 5.236. Try it sometime. Maybe before you go off on your politically correct rant, you'll do some further research next time.
Formula88, thats a start for ya. We're still digging.
It is obvious that the Muslim faith is at a place that Christianity found itself during the Crusades and Inquisitions.
Exactly, there is another tract there that talks about the inquisitions as well.
One thing about Jack Chicks tracts, they go right to the point and dont care if they are politically correct. Which I find is good.
Maybe the pope needs to take a lesson from that
(And before someone goees on about my religion, I grew up as a catholic and was an alterboy as a kid). I had respect for Pope John Paul, but not much for benedict.- Something not right about him....
Look how many bible versions are out there.. and now they have a "politically" correct version that dont list god as man or woman. Geez..
[This message has been edited by isthiswhereiputausername? (edited 09-18-2006).]
Wow, nice propoganda there... gotta love the Allah is an idol discovered by archeologists in the 1940's part... ie. how to make their god NOT the christian god. And the dark, hairy, big nosed, sunken eyed terrorist... yeah, that's the ticket, let's build a stereotype, looks almost exactly like the stereotype the arabs use for jews.. amazing isn't it. I notice they manage to blame the Catholics in the process.
Read further.. all the claims made in the tracts are backed up by more reading.
[This message has been edited by isthiswhereiputausername? (edited 09-18-2006).]
Muhammed was born in Mecca around 570AD. He, apparently, liked to collect concubines and booty, most of which came about while conquering the Arabian Peninsula. Food for thought from the Koran / Qur'an- "As for those who are slain in the cause of God, he will not allow their works to perish. He will vouchsafe them guidance and ennoble their state: He will admit them to the Paradise he has made known to them" (Qur'an47:6)"When you meet the unbelievers in the battlefield, strike off their heads and when you have laid them low, bind your captives firmly."(47:4) Islam began in the seventh century A.D. Mohammed started the religion. Although he could not read or write, he had the Koran written using text taken directly from the Jewish Torah (Five books of Moses) and from the Christian bible. He also added much which was original to him. He declared that the Jewish patriarchs and also that Jesus were actually Muslims, even though Islam didn't exist until he created it. This is a huge contradiction of course! The koran is filled with hateful portions towards "nonbelievers" especially those who worship more than one God, including calls for their death. It is not a tolerant religion. It is a virtual as well as a literary desert.
Great... They are following a religion madeup by a guy who couldnt read and write..
[This message has been edited by isthiswhereiputausername? (edited 09-18-2006).]
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08:23 AM
Scott-Wa Member
Posts: 5392 From: Tacoma, WA, USA Registered: Mar 2002
Read further.. all the claims made in the tracts are backed up by more reading.
No, that's not true unless you want to believe. Allah and the "Moon God" are not the same, anyone that has read the Koran or the history of Islam will see that. Allah is Arabic for "God"... no moon in there. I know where they got the Moon God bit, it's one guy's book/'research' that is a lot like a ufo book... a bunch of wild speculation with no real facts to pull it together. Tidbits of fact that don't tie together tied together. Whatever you want to say about them, they believe in the same god as the jews and christians, easily seen if you read their texts. If you think they are wrong in those beliefs, fine... they think your wrong and so do the jews. Can go right there from that very tract with christ saying looking upon him is looking upon god... heresy to anyone that believes in the old testament god.
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09:32 AM
Pyrthian Member
Posts: 29569 From: Detroit, MI Registered: Jul 2002
finally! a chance for PEOPLE to go and do what everyone wants done! no "hands-tied" government. oh - I can just picture the fun! come on Michigan Militia! come on KKK! let bring peace to the middle east! thru superior firepower! make the Holy Lands holy again! rid them of this Muslem scurge!
Originally posted by Scott-Wa: No, that's not true unless you want to believe. Allah and the "Moon God" are not the same, anyone that has read the Koran or the history of Islam will see that. Allah is Arabic for "God"... no moon in there. I know where they got the Moon God bit, it's one guy's book/'research' that is a lot like a ufo book... a bunch of wild speculation with no real facts to pull it together. Tidbits of fact that don't tie together tied together. Whatever you want to say about them, they believe in the same god as the jews and christians, easily seen if you read their texts. If you think they are wrong in those beliefs, fine... they think your wrong and so do the jews. Can go right there from that very tract with christ saying looking upon him is looking upon god... heresy to anyone that believes in the old testament god.
quote
The Koran tells us that Mohammed drove the other idols away; he made one God now the only god and he was its messenger.
So thats like having 3 people named fred a room, if 2 leave, do you identify him (the remaining fred) by his full name or just fred?
If they send the other idol gods away, why would they need to call it by the correct term anymore? "moon god", from then on, they only considered one god, so that is what the islam is now meant to believe.
quote
Today there is hardly a Muslim that knows its ancient origin.
quote
Originally posted by Scott-Wa: Can go right there from that very tract with christ saying looking upon him is looking upon god... heresy to anyone that believes in the old testament god.
Actually, god is the father the son and the holy spirit.
[This message has been edited by isthiswhereiputausername? (edited 09-18-2006).]
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10:03 AM
ryan.hess Member
Posts: 20784 From: Orlando, FL Registered: Dec 2002
Since I delt with Muslims on a daily basis overseas, I met nice ones and saw violent ones to. Its not nice to stereotype anything with a blanket statement. However being full of humor or #### as some may say, I am revising the NASCAR T-Shirt I bought at Kansas speedway last year.
If its got tires, tits, or is Muslim, It's gonna give you trouble.
'nuf said. S. Williams
------------------ 1988 Fiero Formula T-tops CJB 143 of 1252 "factory T-top cars"
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10:51 AM
PFF
System Bot
USFiero Member
Posts: 4873 From: Everywhere and Middle of Nowhere Registered: Mar 2002
Originally posted by htexans1: I delt with Muslims on a daily basis overseas, I met nice ones and saw violent ones to. Its not nice to stereotype anything with a blanket statement. S. Williams
I edited your post to suggest this: Benedict's goal was to divide the Muslim faith from the 'liberal' (I'm sure they exist), the 'moderates'(could go either way), and extremists... much clearer targets for repaving projects. Don't sell the ulterior motives of world leaders short. I'm sure Papa B is smarter than we think...
There is no doubt there are different degrees of extremism in the Muslim religion. There are also in Christianity.
Just for the record, I'm a Baptist, in a church that also houses an Arab Christian congregation. So there is my bias.
In the 1930's the KKK got pretty big. Millions of members did not know the real motivations or real intentions of the leaders of the cult. When the truth was outed in the news papers, the millions of members melted away leaving about 300,000 devotees, and less today.
The situation with Islam is very similar. Most Muslims do not take part in the extremistism, however, their clerics are another story. While I respect the right of all people to worship as they will, I have no truck with KKK, Nazi's, Stalinists, or Jihadists.
Unfortunately there won't be relief for this problem until there is a major bloodbath. If you believe the Bible, the Christians of the earth will disappear one day and all hell will break loose. Armageddon will happen, the collected Nations against Israel, but crushed by the angels of God. If you aren't a Christian, you are left with the blackness of extreme hatred and wrong headedness in the Muslim extremists and this will not change due to arguement or persuasion. It does not know logic or want it. It sees only hatred, venom, and oppression. It will continue until the situation snaps and somebody nukes Tehran, or the Middle East implodes into open uncontrolled bloodshed.
Hopefully, as alluded to in a post above, the "good" Muslims will see this situation for what it is and separate themselves from the violence. If they don't there will undoubtably be open violence across the world as folks just off one another.
Sad to say, but I really don't see a positive alternative short of the death of the bad guys.
Well, Al Queda just threw its support behind other Muslims calling for the destruction of Rome. Muslims in Iraq issued the following statement this morning, expressing outrage at the Pope's comments regarding Islam being a violent religion. Oh yeah, they also want to the US as well as they obviously put the pope up to his latest shananigans.
"We shall break the cross and spill the wine. ... (you will have no choice but) Islam or death," said the statement, citing a hadith (saying of the Prophet Mohammed) promising Muslims that they would "conquer Rome... as they conquered Constantinople".
"We tell the worshipper of the cross (the Pope) that you and the West will be defeated, as is the case in Iraq, Afghanistan, Chechnya. God enable us to slit their throats, and make their money and descendants the bounty of the Mujahideen."
"The Pope in the Vatican turns in the orbit of Bush. His remarks form part of the mobilisation for a crusade announced by Bush, to raise the morale of the crusader armies."
"You will only see our swords until you go back to God’s true faith Islam," it said in a separate statement, which called the Pope "Satan’s hellhound in the Vatican", saying he was "proud today of his hatred towards Muslims".
"The day is coming when the armies of Islam will destroy the ramparts of Rome," it added in the statement addressed to "Crusaders".
Since I delt with Muslims on a daily basis overseas, I met nice ones and saw violent ones to. Its not nice to stereotype anything with a blanket statement. However being full of humor or #### as some may say, I am revising the NASCAR T-Shirt I bought at Kansas speedway last year.
If its got tires, tits, or is Muslim, It's gonna give you trouble.
'nuf said. S. Williams
If its got tires, tits, or a turbin, It's gonna give you trouble.
Or for pilots/mechanics,
If its got tires, tits, or turbines, It's gonna give you trouble.
Well, protests have got underway in London now with Muslims there calling for the pope to sentenced to death over his remarks regarding Islam. Muslim lawyer Anjem Choudary was quoted as saying "The Muslims take their religion very seriously and non-Muslims must appreciate that and that must also understand that there may be serious consequences if you insult Islam and the prophet. "Whoever insults the message of Mohammed is going to be subject to capital punishment." He added: "I am here have a peaceful demonstration. But there may be people in Italy or other parts of the world who would carry that out. "I think that warning needs to be understood by all people who want to insult Islam and want to insult the prophet of Islam."
What scum. Wills and calls for the death of an individual, yet claims that he is just organizing a peaceful demonstration.
1. Muslims taking an active role in removing the hearts from muslim extremists. I would like it if they felt they had a responsability to do so to protect their faith and their pride. But alas they all seem to be in cohorts with them and I offer proof of this by their lack of outrage and silent support of the extremists.
2. I think it would be great if they would blow up the vatican. All out direct unabashed destruction would follow. Messy yes, but very effective. Reminds me of Pearl Harbor.
3. Maybe most important of all. I wish people here would realize that this won't go away by changing a few policys or ignoring them. It is those that believe this that give them their greatest strength against us.
I really feel bad to say it but our best course of action is a unity of hate. Absolute conviction in mindset.
[This message has been edited by pokeyfiero (edited 09-18-2006).]
I dated a girl a few years ago who came from a moderate Muslim family. Being accepted into their life, I experienced firsthand that it IS a religion & society of HATE. The local, grass roots imams & clerics all "preached" about non-believers & supported intolerance to the congregation, at organized & casual family & social events, including to their children.
I do not respect this religion or the people that support this ideology & thus it will be stamped out. There is a world wide religious war ccuring in our lifetime & all must fight it or become a victim of it. You decide.
excellent point # 1 pokey.
[This message has been edited by OHNIKO (edited 09-18-2006).]
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04:18 PM
AntiKev Member
Posts: 2333 From: Windsor, Ontario, Canada Registered: May 2004
I dated a girl a few years ago who came from a moderate Muslim family. Being accepted into their life, I experienced firsthand that it IS a religion & society of HATE. The local, grass roots imams & clerics all "preached" about non-believers & supported intolerance to the congregation, at organized & casual family & social events, including to their children.
I do not respect this religion or the people that support this ideology & thus it will be stamped out. There is a world wide religious war ccuring in our lifetime & all must fight it or become a victim of it. You decide.
excellent point # 1 pokey.
A very good friend of mine from high school comes from a family with an Iranian father and a Christian mother. Her father is very controlling, will not let her associate with males, and would disown her for moving out on her own. She loves her family (including her father) very much, but is torn between making herself free and upsetting her father. I've discussed it with her, and she openly admits how things are with her father, they're bad.
I consider myself an agnostic although I grew up going to a Ukranian Catholic church. One thing I do know is that no "supreme being" would preach death or conversion.
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04:42 PM
Toddster Member
Posts: 20871 From: Roswell, Georgia Registered: May 2001
