Do you believe in his supremacy above Mankind? His vision, His planning, His design for the World? Do you believe He did everything for a purpose, which is unquestionable by Mankind? Do you believe He did everything right? Do you believe He gave us the right to question, doubt, or attempt to alter all or anything that He has made/created? If you can't answer 'YES' to the first four aforementioned questions, and 'NO' to the last, can you really be devoutly religious?
If you CAN answer 'YES' to the first four, and 'NO' to the last, are you guilty by association by allowing others to break the Law of God? Should you be standing up and denouncing any of the contraventions mentioned before from the roof-tops? Or is that just the job of Religious Leaders?
These are seriously stated questions, and I would really like to hear your replies.But..please...No personal attacks or insults directed to anybody who replies . I would REALLY like to hear heartfelt opinions, not hear anybody attacking somebody else's...The purpose of asking you all, is to settle something which has been bothering me for a long time now.I reserve the right to keep that 'something' to myself..but also reserve the right to express it later on, should this discussion lend some clarity to my uncertain mind.
Nick

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fierofetish.PFF'S self-confessed Snowbird!!

Growing old is harder than growing up.
Responsibility: the solution for our World's Dilemmas..
Yahoo messenger:nickcannspain
MSN Messenger-nicholascann@hotmail.com

Look for the real answers (Origin, etc), don't just give up and say god because it's easier or because you can't grasp the concept of billions of years. All things have explanations, and most are quite easily understood by the average person if researched. Don't be afraid to fade to black, and have to believe there is something more.


God is dead, if simply because some people wanted to question instead of accept.

Yes, its called faith.

short answer:

no, and never will

No.

For me, it's like Big foot, magic, paranormal, ufo's, etc.

I really WANT to believe in them!
I REALLY do!
But I can't.
Becouse I have not been 100% convinced.

And until then, i'm agnosic.

I DO believe Jesus Christ was a man.
A very wise & caring man, come before his time.
But that's it.

If you must have a God, choose The Universe.
We came from stardust, and we will go back, after this planet is turned to dust.
We will join "The Everything" (heaven), to make another place in the cosmos, for the start of yet another form of life.
That way, we TRUELY never die.
And the cycle continues infinitly.

I think God is just the universe. Not a person, supreme being, ghost, or anything like that. It's not something that hears peoples prayers or pass judgement for the enterance to heaven.

It just what's around us.

A recent NBC comprehensive study showed that 92% of Americans believe in God. I was pleased to see the report because the internet sure leads you to think that Christians are the minority. I have never thought it was true but, at least on internet forums it seems like the anti-Christians are taking over the world.

What Johnny means is that science has come up with hypothesis to show that God doesn't exist and the world was created in some other fashion. No proof or anything.. just good ideas. But since it is science they feel they don't really need proof. They keep looking at Christians and telling us to show proof. And of course, what proves to us that there is a God doesn't compute to them. I have no idea what the 'concept of billions of years' thing is supposed to mean. God is timeless. Billions of years are nothing to Him.

God is far from dead... Christians have just been drowned out lately by others getting more time on TV. It has been a constant battle since the beginning of time and I suspect it always will be.. at least until it is too late for those who don't believe.

To answer your direct questions...
1. Yes. God is supreme above man.
2. See answers 3 and 4.
3. No, I do not believe in an unquestionable purpose for man. God put us here with certain abilities and potential. It is up to us individually if we decide to fulfill that potential or not.
4. Yes, God did everything right. But man screwed it up.
5. This one is tricky.. Yes, we have the right to question. Without questioning, what good is faith. I don't think we should be trying to play God when it comes to creation.

I am not the judge of man. It is my role as a Christian to help spread the Word of God, but not to judge those who resist it. God alone will judge those who break his laws. In my opinion, so-called religious leaders are in more help than most. I put my faith in God, not religious leaders.

i think boonie and witchita sumed it up good

quote Originally posted by Wichita: I think God is just the universe. Not a person, supreme being, ghost, or anything like that. It's not something that hears peoples prayers or pass judgement for the enterance to heaven. It just what's around us.

So we live in God?

Do you think nuclear weapons tickle?

quote Originally posted by Songman: A recent NBC comprehensive study showed that 92% of Americans believe in God. I was pleased to see the report because the internet sure leads you to think that Christians are the minority. I have never thought it was true but, at least on internet forums it seems like the anti-Christians are taking over the world. What Johnny means is that science has come up with hypothesis to show that God doesn't exist and the world was created in some other fashion. No proof or anything.. just good ideas. But since it is science they feel they don't really need proof. They keep looking at Christians and telling us to show proof. And of course, what proves to us that there is a God doesn't compute to them. I have no idea what the 'concept of billions of years' thing is supposed to mean. God is timeless. Billions of years are nothing to Him. God is far from dead... Christians have just been drowned out lately by others getting more time on TV. It has been a constant battle since the beginning of time and I suspect it always will be.. at least until it is too late for those who don't believe. To answer your direct questions... 1. Yes. God is supreme above man. 2. See answers 3 and 4. 3. No, I do not believe in an unquestionable purpose for man. God put us here with certain abilities and potential. It is up to us individually if we decide to fulfill that potential or not. 4. Yes, God did everything right. But man screwed it up. 5. This one is tricky.. Yes, we have the right to question. Without questioning, what good is faith. I don't think we should be trying to play God when it comes to creation. I am not the judge of man. It is my role as a Christian to help spread the Word of God, but not to judge those who resist it. God alone will judge those who break his laws. In my opinion, so-called religious leaders are in more help than most. I put my faith in God, not religious leaders.

Of course christians are the majority in america. It's a god fearing nation. Remember when they tried to teach (Maybe they do) creation in school in Kansas. Thats ridiculous. I do think, however, thats turning around. BIllions of years in the sense of the earth. I remember someone on here saying "How come we haven't seen evolution in the past few hundred years" which was laughable.

Thats quite a ridiculous quote about 'science'. You are failing to see that science doesn't care if god exists or not. It's not a religion, with an agenda. It's seeking the reason things are. And it does that through observation and experiments. They are theories. Theories with some proof, some variables, sometimes extrapolation, and sometimes, nothing. The latter are dismissed. That is the difference between religion and science. Religion wants/has to prove there is a god, no matter what the cost, through faith. The word is faith. Doesn't matter if all signs point to no, you have to believe, otherwise you are going to hell. People fear death. You fear death. You said it in that sentence. But you think you don't fear it because you are convinced you are going to heaven. If a whole bunch of observations started to reveal a god, science wouldn't deny that. That is the difference. One takes reasoning, and the other, by very definition, takes the exact opposite.

Edit: meant to say majority

[This message has been edited by JohnnyK (edited 09-14-2006).]

No
but i have seen a UFO along time ago

I don't think any of the religions defines what the true essence of what "God" is, but I think the farther back you go, the closer you get. If it does have gender, it is more likely to be female then male.

I enjoy many of the stories found in religions, and I find the same truths in the newer shades of symbolic represntations as those written long ago.

I'm through with limiting myself to one world view. I'm shifting my own paradigm, and embracing the similar truths found in all religions and belief systems.

If there is an overseerer, I believe it wants us to explore.

Positive exploration is my deal now, and I am happily inviting you all to explore with me. If it is possible that positive reflection(or prayer) can create a positive result, then it can't hurt to do this, especially if it "heals" yourself, on some level...
(Reduces your blood pressure and such)

Those that believe in a structured religion are fine , too, just please, be accomidating to others that don't share your views. It's a big enough world for us all to play in.

quote Originally posted by fierofetish: 1)Do you believe in his supremacy above Mankind? 2)His vision, His planning, His design for the World? 3)Do you believe He did everything for a purpose, which is unquestionable by Mankind? 4)Do you believe He did everything right? 5)Do you believe He gave us the right to question, doubt, or attempt to alter all or anything that He has made/created?

1) Maybe
2) Why? If I stop believing in his vision, does the world vanish?
3) I don't know. Everything has a place.
4) Why? Is God infallible? To an ant, we're gods. We can kill them, feed them, literally move their entire world, etc. That doesn't make us perfect, and it doesn't necessarily make us better than them. More "advanced", maybe.
5) Absolutely

Now I have a question for you. I'll play the role of God. Ask me any question you want. One question only. What would you like to know?

My statement about science, it wasn't a quote. It was a statement taken from the attitudes of anti-Christians and Big Bangers on the forum. There is absolutely no way for you to prove that God doesn't exist so you just keep telling Christians to prove that he does. I actually like and respect science except when the term is misused to prove to make someone's personal beliefs without any facts.

As an non-Christian I can't expect you to understand but you are point blank dead wrong. I don't have to prove there is a God. I know there is. I don't fear death (and I didn't say I did).. because I know there is a God. But lots of people who believe like you say you do wind up believing in God when they are about to die. So which side fears death?

Johnny, with your logic in this thread you could disprove anything. Love. Air. Hate. I know I won't change your mind and I am not going to try. You know how I feel and I know how you feel. You think I am wrong. I think you are wrong. I don't think you are a bad person. I used to but you seemed to grow up some in the past couple of years. But face the facts.. We are both in the same place. You believe what you believe with no proof. I believe what I believe with no proof (that you will understand at least).

Don't sell me short. Even though I am a long haired musician doesn't mean that I am not an intellectual who likes to think things through. As I said in my response to Nick, Christains can and should doubt. That is how we get stronger in our faith. On the opposite side of that coin, I doubt very seriously if you have ever even considered the other side. So I find myself a little more scientific in that I didn't close my mind. I made a conscious decision after looking at all the data.

[This message has been edited by Songman (edited 09-14-2006).]

I belive in science and Darwin is its prophet and Einstine and Hawkings and Tesla and Newton and a few other men and woman. Plus I'm to lazy to do god. Think of all the brain power I don't waste on religions and gods.

Rumor.. Don't confuse God with religion. And I know you didn't until you got to your last sentence. That is what my statement about so-called religious leaders meant. My relationship is with God. Religions seem to be nothing more than political groups now.

Ryan, we are not Gods to ants. We are just higher on the food change. We didn't invent ants.

Johnny, I will add that not all science or scientists say there is no God. Just the ones that you choose to listen to apparently. Some people feel they are too smart to believe that God gave their intelligence to them. They want to think they did it all themselves. So, that is sort of the opposite of your 'you have to believe in God' thing. It is one of those things that can be played both ways. Anything that you can say about my side, I can pretty much turn around and say about your side and it be just as true.

Now.. Come down to what all you anti-Christians say.. You say we just believe in God because we are afraid of Hell. Not true as has been said by many members on the forum many times, but since ya'll keep on saying it anyway (where is the science in that?)... Let's just suppose that it is that simple. If Christians are right, we go to Heaven when we die and sinners go to Hell. And if you are right, we all die and turn to dust equally. Even under your terms I still like my side better. And you know, I am not missing out on a thing in life by being Christian. Do you think you have more fun that I do? Do you think your life is more fulfilled than mine is? I would bet that the opposite is true.

But again, I won't ask you to understand it because you can't. I do hope that as you get older your mind opens up to at least consider the other side though.

While the average student or scientist may not have an agenda to end all religion, there is an agenda behind evolution. If a person doesn't believe in a God then they don't have to answer to anyone for their sins. They are allowed to kill, cheat, steal etc. without consequences. Their law is based on popular opinion that constantly changes depending on agenda. The agenda may be racism, greed or any number of things but it's still an agenda. Yes God is supreme. His vision and plan were apparently ruined the day Adam ate the fruit. Yes, he did it for a purpose. I don't know what his purpose was so it's hard to question it. When he created everything he saw that it was good, so yes I believe it was right. Some things have changed since then. I am not sure if we have the right to question what he has done but we definately have the ability to.

Evolution... That is another thing that is bantered around to try to disprove Christianity. I have said on more than one occasion, as have a lot of Christians I know, that evolution exists... It came after the Creation. I'm not saying that there weren't dinosaurs. I know there were... We all do. We've seen the bones. The difference is that anti-Christians think something just crawled out of the slime after the big bang and then after a while became what we are. Christians see all life as part of Creation.

Not that it matters but I don't think evolution has happened since the creation either. Showing extinct animals does not prove evolution. A taller person or whiter person does not make them more evolved. I will buy into survival of the fittest in a natural environment but this also does not prove evolution. It only ensures the stronger of the original stock survives.

I think humans as a species have gotten softer over the generations. That is the evolution that I see. I don't think we evolved from dinosaurs or monkeys. That is not what I was trying to say. Some species survive, others don't. Maybe adaptation would be a better word.

quote Originally posted by Boondawg: ... I DO believe Jesus Christ was a man. A very wise & caring man, come before his time. But that's it. ....

Really....

Jesus replied, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." (John 14:6)

“Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me, and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. And whoever does not take up his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life because of me 65 will find it. (Matthew 10:37 - 39)

Again the high priest questioned him, “Are you the Christ, the Son of the Blessed One?” “I am,” said Jesus, (Mark 14:61b-62a)

That's not what He said. So, was He a great teacher (therefore, heretic), lunatic (Messianic complex) or God Incarnate? By your definition, he was the first, and, therefore, was not "ahead of his time," but, rather, deserving of his fate. If the second, then, perhaps he was ahead of his time, for he would have been institutionalized in modern times. But if the last, He was God, incapable of a lie, or any other transgression, and, in loving the human race beyond His own life, accepted the punishment for all that was and was to come (John 3:16).

Like Songman, not a judgement, for is not me who will judge. I'm in the boat, I see a bunch of people in stormy seas, and I've got one of those floaty rings....

quote Originally posted by Songman: Johnny, I will add that not all science or scientists say there is no God. Just the ones that you choose to listen to apparently. Do you think you have more fun that I do? Do you think your life is more fulfilled than mine is? I would bet that the opposite is true. But again, I won't ask you to understand it because you can't. I do hope that as you get older your mind opens up to at least consider the other side though.

I never said that all scientists didn't believe in god, nor only the ones I listened to. I said I don't believe in god. Because I agree with say, the teachers of einstein, and he believed in god, doesn't mean that I have to. And I guarantee I don't have more fun than you. I'd be happy as a clam if I thought all was hunky dory and I'm going to heaven when I die. You wouldn't fear anything (except god of course). By all rights, you should be crossing the street without looking, thats how carefree you could be.

quote Originally posted by Songman: A recent NBC comprehensive study showed that 92% of Americans believe in God. I was pleased to see the report because the internet sure leads you to think that Christians are the minority. I have never thought it was true but, at least on internet forums it seems like the anti-Christians are taking over the world.

92% doesn't mean Christian God.

quote Originally posted by Songman: I think humans as a species have gotten softer over the generations. That is the evolution that I see. I don't think we evolved from dinosaurs or monkeys. That is not what I was trying to say. Some species survive, others don't. Maybe adaptation would be a better word.

I agree, Evolution works BOTH ways. If you remove an environmental stressor, the "weaker" survive, and propagate.

Thanks to glasses, dentists (and orthodontists), and wigs, people marry people that have bad eyesight, bad teeth, and bad hair. Our kids, in turn, have bad eyesight, bad teeth, and their hair ain't much to brag about.... same thing goes for internal unhappinesses... bad organs, etc... people that are less fit tend to live long enough to spread their genes... and we send so much of our healthy stock to get killed in wars...not too good.
Good thing we are so good at technology to "fix" us right up!


That's one reason why our pets are getting all foobarred too. In the wild, a cat can't see the mouse...it doesn't live too long. we feed vittles to our old, fat, half-blind kitties, and pump more. That's why so many domesticated cats' Jacobson's organs don't even work anymore...
We all have parts of ourselves, deep parts that itch, and we lost the origins, so we came up with satisfacorty ways of dealing with the itches. Some of us can't swallow stories that simply do not make sense to us, others embrace them. still other wish to create their own stories...


My hives are calling me to wake up and smell the karma. I have tried on the suits of different faiths, and haven't found one that quite fits right. But I enjoy the symbols behind the myths...I just feel like we are all shadows of past generations, and that the culture we fight so strongly about will evolve into a terribly shallow existence for future generations, them being fainter shadows of us.

I believe one can be compelled to be "good" because they WANT to be good. and THAT, I feel is more important then someone that is "good" because they fear being punished. That is the way a kid acts. An adult takes responsibility of their actions, they don't need their government, their God, or their Great Aunt Lucy to keep their "weak flesh" on the "straight and narrow"...

That doesn't mean that there shouldn't be laws in place to deal with those that choose to not respect others...(yeah, I know...how do you define "right and wrong...well, the society decides that...)

There are things which we just accept which I do not believe we blindly should. There are doors that have been forcibly closed which I feel we should be allowed to open.

What is the origin of matter? What wisdom accounts for the perfect order of things like the growth of a tree or the tide or the migration of birds or birth and conception? What mind concieved principles of physics and chemistry?

I think it would take more faith to believe it wasn't God.

------------------
Who is John Galt?

quote Originally posted by Wichita: 92% doesn't mean Christian God.

Yes, actually it does.. Now if I had said that 92% of Americans are Baptist, you could have said that it was all religions not just Baptist.

But yes, 92% of Americans believe in the Christian God. That does not include Buddhists, Muslims or other religions Gods.

JohnnyK... Patrick's Dad didn't mention any fear. He did mention a calm that Christians have.. and a willingness to share it with others who didn't have it. To you, it is fear. That is because you don't have the calm.

quote Originally posted by Songman: Yes, actually it does.. Now if I had said that 92% of Americans are Baptist, you could have said that it was all religions not just Baptist. But yes, 92% of Americans believe in the Christian God. That does not include Buddhists, Muslims or other religions Gods. JohnnyK... Patrick's Dad didn't mention any fear. He did mention a calm that Christians have.. and a willingness to share it with others who didn't have it. To you, it is fear. That is because you don't have the calm.

It's a calm because everyone who believes in a heaven believes they are going to that heaven. If he truly believed he was going to hell, he woudln't appear so calm.

quote Originally posted by Songman: Yes, actually it does.. Now if I had said that 92% of Americans are Baptist, you could have said that it was all religions not just Baptist. But yes, 92% of Americans believe in the Christian God. That does not include Buddhists, Muslims or other religions Gods.

What's the difference between the Christian God, the Muslim God, and the Jewish God?

I hope there's a punchline somewhere after this post... j/k

[This message has been edited by ryan.hess (edited 09-14-2006).]

quote Originally posted by Patrick's Dad: Like Songman, not a judgement, for is not me who will judge. I'm in the boat, I see a bunch of people in stormy seas, and I've got one of those floaty rings....

I'm in the same boat. I see a bunch of people who through their human take on religious beliefs - being born again and saved, doing good works or whatever they think will guarantee them a spot in heaven possibly getting a raw deal in the end.

I reserve any comments about my lot in eternal life until I meet my maker and he informs me at approximately what temperature my eternal home will be.

Tim

I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do, because I notice it always coincides with their own desires.
—Susan B. Anthony

[This message has been edited by FrugalFiero (edited 09-14-2006).]

quote Originally posted by Patrick's Dad: Like Songman, not a judgement, for is not me who will judge. I'm in the boat, I see a bunch of people in stormy seas, and I've got one of those floaty rings....

That's an ironic comment, considering you're the one in stormy seas.

May Shiva look down upon you in contempt.

I hope you catch this floaty ring and convert to Hinduism.

I do not. But can someone answer this for me.... if there is a God...then why do we have to go to church to worship him? isnt that pretty much a cult?

Not to hijack this thread, but I was just wondering.

quote Originally posted by FieroDiva: I do not. But can someone answer this for me.... if there is a God...then why do we have to go to church to worship him? isnt that pretty much a cult? Not to hijack this thread, but I was just wondering.

Because, GOD NEEDS YOUR MONEY!!!!!!!


Also, the "Holy Wifi" works better in there (probably due to the tall steeple-thingie on the top)

But it's a place to come together and perform rituals...bringing the community TOGETHER...


Hard NOT to feel "calmness" in a church or temple.

[This message has been edited by FieroRumor (edited 09-14-2006).]

quote Originally posted by JohnnyK: Thats the fear I was talking about. It doesn't seem like fear to you, because you are thoroughly convinced you are going to heaven, no different than 72 virgins. However, if you believed in what you do, and believed you were going to hell, it would be a different story. Nobody who believes in god actually thinks they are a bad person. (Exceptions, I'm aware).

No, Johnny, a bit different.

A young Muslim male is performing a specific act, i.e.; blowing up infidels (along with himself) to get those virgins. As I understand it, Muslims who die of old age (including the teachers of these young males), don't even get one virgin.

I have the assurance of Heaven, but I am not in a rush to go there. I am commanded to "...go and make disciples..." but, to paraphrase, I am to sow seeds. My belief is that I have little ability to save anyone (so my Life Preserver Thingy analogy kind of falls apart), yet I have the innate desire to do that, nonetheless. I desire to throw the LPT, but I guess that I know that many (most) will ignore it or throw it back. It is a work of God that we are saved, yet we are to always be ready "in season and out of season." I feel like I am constantly "out of season," because my words always seem to be rejected, especially here. Yet I know that God is working in the hearts of readers and responders alike, and maybe I've planted a seed that He can use, or I am "watering" a previously planted seed.

The Parable of the Sower

In my strength or weakness, in my (real or false) humility, in my state of being, whatever it may be from time to time, the fact remains that the fields must be worked, the job needs to get done. I have no talent, nothing of worth, except His gift, which I can't keep. I do not wish death, but I do not fear him. He will come when he comes, and my hope is to hear, "Well done, good and faithful servant...." Getting a Fiero event together and touching of a maelstrom (because all those Fieros will surely catch fire.... ) will almost certainly not grant me my hope, and will not give others the chance to experience it.

I may or may not make sense here. As Arthur Dent said, "This must be Thursday. I never could get the hang of Thursdays." The wife works long hours and I've got four kids to watch over.

Nick,

It seems the majority here are getting stuck at question #1, so I'll let them hash that one out as they desire. Assuming that your questions had a purpose beyound that age old discussion, here are my short answers to your specific questions....

quote Do you believe in God.

Yes in the triune (Christian) God.

quote Do you believe in his supremacy above Mankind?

Yep.

quote His vision, His planning, His design for the World?

Yes again - although I would be lieing if I said I completely understand it, but I do believe he knows what he is doing.

quote Do you believe He did everything for a purpose

Yes

quote , which is unquestionable by Mankind?

No - He built into us the ability to question, so why would I believe he would not want us to question - although sometimes it would be really nice to have the unquestioning faith of a child as that makes things so much easier. The answers we derive to life's questions define who and what we are.

quote Do you believe He did everything right?

Yes, but again I will not profess that I can defend everything I see so as to define "right" at this point.

quote Do you believe He gave us the right to question, doubt, or attempt to alter all or anything that He has made/created?

Of course he did. If he wanted to create completely mindless blobs of gunk, he certainly could have and there are examples of life that he did this with. There are of course limitations to what we should attempt to alter and/or how we attempt to alter it.

quote If you can't answer 'YES' to the first four aforementioned questions, and 'NO' to the last, can you really be devoutly religious?

Let see how I did.... Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes/No, Yes, and Yes. Oops... my "no" is in the middle of a "yes sandwich" - although you asked seven questions - not just four , but I guess for the purposes of this discussion it may be most important that my answer to the last question is Yes. So, I think you are then asking "Am I a devout Christian." My response... "You bet I am."

quote If you CAN answer 'YES' to the first four, and 'NO' to the last, are you guilty by association by allowing others to break the Law of God? Should you be standing up and denouncing any of the contraventions mentioned before from the roof-tops? Or is that just the job of Religious Leaders?

I have been guilty of many things in my life - not just of allowing others to break the laws of God. Truthfully, there are times that I am probably the cause of others breaking these laws. Not something I'm proud of, but the truth none the less. IMHO, the profession of faith is the job of everyone - not just the religious leaders - but I don't feel that this is what you are wrestling with.

I think the question most prevalent to you right now is, "Do you believe He gave us the right to question, doubt, or attempt to alter all or anything that He has made/created?" Is this your conflict?

quote Originally posted by Patrick's Dad: A young Muslim male is performing a specific act, i.e.; blowing up infidels (along with himself) to get those virgins. As I understand it, Muslims who die of old age (including the teachers of these young males), don't even get one virgin.

In the same sense that Eric Rudolph's bombings of abortion clinics will get him into heaven.



You're confusing Muslim extremists with regular Muslims. Muslims are really no different than Jews or Christians. They teach 90% of the same stuff. Feel free to read up on it before getting caught saying stupid things.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/saturday_review/story/0,3605,631332,00.html

quote Originally posted by FieroDiva: I do not. But can someone answer this for me.... if there is a God...then why do we have to go to church to worship him? isnt that pretty much a cult? Not to hijack this thread, but I was just wondering.

I don't take it as a hijack....

The answer is, you don't. You can (and should) worship God everywhere you are. Being a Christian (in its biblical sense) means that you are set apart, and that, not being beholden to the "powers of the world," i.e.; temptation, sin, whatever might distract you otherwise, you are a Stranger in a Strange Land (Genesis, not Heinlein). People see you as bizzare (as Rumor and Johnny see me and Songman) or peculiar.

One of the simple litmus tests between church and cult is requirement. Church passes the plate. If you put something in, fine. If not, fine. If you tithe or put in $10.00, fine, it's between you and God. In a cult, your posessions in fairly short order become "community property." If you have an Audit at a Scientology "office," you will need to pay fairly large sums to get the details of your affliction by aliens, and even more to go through the process to become "clear." You would also be isolated from your friends and family. Church would ask you to invite them.

quote Originally posted by JohnnyK: It's a calm because everyone who believes in a heaven believes they are going to that heaven. If he truly believed he was going to hell, he woudln't appear so calm.

well if there is a god he gets to pick.
not the preacher or the so called bornagain fools
or the terror bombers who think 77 virgins await them
in fact hubris is the best way to think about
anyone who knows they are going to heaven
and the very thought is enuff to disqualify them from heaven
as they are taking gods place in the desision
and thats a BIG SIN in all their fairytales

anyway if any of those types are in heaven it would be hell to me
but I think the fairytale belivers are a clean and present danger
as belife in god caused the towers to fall on 9-11

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Question wonder and be wierd
are you kind?

quote Originally posted by Patrick's Dad: One of the simple litmus tests between church and cult is requirement.

By definition, all religions are cults.

cult  /kʌlt/ –noun
1. a particular system of religious worship, esp. with reference to its rites and ceremonies.
2. an instance of great veneration of a person, ideal, or thing, esp. as manifested by a body of admirers: the physical fitness cult.
3. the object of such devotion.
4. a group or sect bound together by veneration of the same thing, person, ideal, etc.