quote Originally posted by Patrick's Dad: I don't take it as a hijack.... The answer is, you don't. You can (and should) worship God everywhere you are.

Absolutely. I however, prefer to meet with friends and family once a week in a common and peaceful setting. I appreciate the words and wisdom of my Priest and the sense of history and community my Church provides

quote Originally posted by Patrick's Dad: I don't take it as a hijack.... you are a Stranger in a Strange Land (Genesis, not Heinlein). .

well I like MIKE and Heinlein's version of the god myth
THOU ART GOD because it is true
every god is manmade
and no two alike

------------------
Question wonder and be wierd
are you kind?

quote Originally posted by ryan.hess: In the same sense that Eric Rudolph's bombings of abortion clinics will get him into heaven. You're confusing Muslim extremists with regular Muslims. Muslims are really no different than Jews or Christians. They teach 90% of the same stuff. Feel free to read up on it before getting caught saying stupid things. http://www.guardian.co.uk/saturday_review/story/0,3605,631332,00.html

[9.123] O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness; and know that Allah is with those who guard

[30.45] That He may reward those who believe and do good out of His grace; surely He does not love the unbelievers

These quotes from the Koran are quite different from "turn the other cheek," and, "For God so loved the world...."

There are places in the Old Testament that God tells the Children of Israel to wipe out a tribe, sometimes utterly. There is no place in the New Testament that could be legitimately translated for us to do likewise. The new Covenant is one of understanding our inability to save ourselves (doing good things) and placing our trust in the finished work of Jesus on the Cross (His work). Nothing else. Blowing up an abortion mill, especially an inhabited one, leaves no more chance for those who were inside to find the Way.

Christians and Jews didn't dance in the streets when the Twin Towers fell. We have people in our own country who are preaching that we deserved it, and would have been quite satisfied last month, if the British authorities hadn't stepped in.

When a Tsunami hit Indonesia, we were there to help. We didn't shrug off a bunch of "infidels." There's a difference between what "our" book says and what "their" book says.

quote Originally posted by ryan.hess: By definition, all religions are cults. cult  /kʌlt/ –noun 1. a particular system of religious worship, esp. with reference to its rites and ceremonies. 2. an instance of great veneration of a person, ideal, or thing, esp. as manifested by a body of admirers: the physical fitness cult. 3. the object of such devotion. 4. a group or sect bound together by veneration of the same thing, person, ideal, etc.

Thanks for posting this. I rest my case...

quote Originally posted by ryan.hess: That's an ironic comment, considering you're the one in stormy seas. May Shiva look down upon you in contempt. I hope you catch this floaty ring and convert to Hinduism.

See? God looks on you with love. Another example of the difference.

And Rumor is right. If I'm right, I'm not worried; my way is prepared. If we are here by cosmic happenstance, then I'm also not worried, I'm worm food.

We all belong to the Cult of the Fiero.

Now Go to bed, everybody!
(And don't forget to turn out the light)

zzzzzZZzzzZZzzzZZzzzzz

quote Originally posted by FieroDiva: Thanks for posting this. I rest my case...

Sorry, councillor. The defense wins this case. From the American Heritage:

re·li·gion (r-ljn)
n.

1.
1. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.
2. A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.
2. The life or condition of a person in a religious order.
3. A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.
4. A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.


1.1 Narrows the definition to remove it from "cult" status. Though a cult may purport to help you find god, it is ultimately about the person or personality of the founder (like Mormonism) or the leader (Jim Jones, David Koresh) of the cult. In religion, it is about God, or a god or gods. Though a cult can have the trappings of religion, and could be followed religiously, it is a rose by any other name.

In other words, we are a cult following of the Fiero, but God does not drive one (nor does he drive a Corvette, a Ferrari, or even an MG).

EDIT: Rumor beat me to the above.... And thanks for the heads up! Midnight! Aaah!

[This message has been edited by Patrick's Dad (edited 09-14-2006).]

quote Originally posted by Patrick's Dad: 1.1 Narrows the definition to remove it from "cult" status. Though a cult may purport to help you find god, it is ultimately about the person or personality of the founder (like Mormonism) or the leader (Jim Jones, David Koresh) of the cult.

Umm... Jesus is to Christianity as Joseph Smith is to Mormonism as Muhammad is to Islam as ....

All religions are cults. Not all cults are religions.

quote Originally posted by Patrick's Dad: Gen 1:1: In the beginning, God created the heaven and the earth. Gen 1:5,6: He called the light "day," and the darkness, "night." And there was evening and there was morning, the first day. It seems to me that the heavens, including the stars, etc. were taken care of pretty early on.

Wrong Answer! Could have at least kept reading to

Gen 1:14 ¶ And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
Gen 1:15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
Gen 1:16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: [he made] the stars also.
Gen 1:17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
Gen 1:18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that [it was] good.
Gen 1:19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.

That comes AFTER

Gen 1:11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, [and] the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed [is] in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.
Gen 1:12 And the earth brought forth grass, [and] herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed [was] in itself, after his kind: and God saw that [it was] good.
Gen 1:13 And the evening and the morning were the third day.

Oh and the heavens were on day two... yet the stars weren't til day four, after the plants

Weirdness. I've tried to reconcile Genesis with reality... it just doesn't jibe. Plants came before stars.... otay... but we know all the basic materials heavier than hydrogen up through iron come from stars, so where did plants get their carbon from. There was no carbon yet. I've tried the "Genesis isn't 24 hour days... it's just a description of what came in what order.." but that makes no more sense than the literal belief that God just went poof and saw that it was good.

I think the intricacy of the scientific theories are much more beautiful and believable. Unlike the religous versions that make less and less sense the more you know, the scientific version of what follows the 'big bang' make more and more sense.

Oh, so I guess I have to be put down in the 'no' category if belief in god means believing the universe was created by a being for us, and all the weird variations that follow like vengeful god becomes forgiving god, monotheistic god that is so awesome you can't survive his presence becomes a human and walks around then let's himself be killed, same god splits off into a trinity of three gods but he's still one god... now that's weird.

Yes, I believe in God.
But I sometimes question how some people die.
I realize we all have "our time" to go but isn't it strange how some pass on { crocodile hunter}
I mean if God has it all planned---I just sometime wonder.
.

quote Originally posted by Patrick's Dad: [9.123] O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness; and know that Allah is with those who guard [30.45] That He may reward those who believe and do good out of His grace; surely He does not love the unbelievers These quotes from the Koran are quite different from "turn the other cheek," and, "For God so loved the world...." There are places in the Old Testament that God tells the Children of Israel to wipe out a tribe, sometimes utterly. There is no place in the New Testament that could be legitimately translated for us to do likewise. The new Covenant is one of understanding our inability to save ourselves (doing good things) and placing our trust in the finished work of Jesus on the Cross (His work). Nothing else. Blowing up an abortion mill, especially an inhabited one, leaves no more chance for those who were inside to find the Way. Christians and Jews didn't dance in the streets when the Twin Towers fell. We have people in our own country who are preaching that we deserved it, and would have been quite satisfied last month, if the British authorities hadn't stepped in. When a Tsunami hit Indonesia, we were there to help. We didn't shrug off a bunch of "infidels." There's a difference between what "our" book says and what "their" book says.

Umm... how do you know what religon those dancing were? There are christian Arabs.

Also... nice of you to cherry pick Koran passages, do I need to go to the trouble of posting the rest of the sections? Have you read the Koran or are you just posting what someone told you was in it?

I have problems with reading the Koran in English. I do have a copy, but they do emphasize that the intent doesn't come through like reading it in the original language, I can relate having grown up reading the Torah in the original language where the version that has existed for thousands of years doesn't have any vowels, something added to the modern hebrew language so people could have a clue what you'd written without someone else telling you... What is the literacy rate in the Arab world for reading the Koran in it's original language? Their clerics seem to wield a huge amount of power deciding for the masses what it says and means.

Also interesting how you quote the Koran telling that God does not love the unbelievers in the same paragraph you talk about God telling the jews to wipe out non jews... something that happened repeatedly, yet you chose the change of heart bit that christianity portrays, where God just gets schitzo and loves us all but is going to burn us in hell forever...

A

Nope, if I am feeling paranoid I am agnostic, most of the time an atheist. I think religion is for the lonely that need some kind of an answer to give them the comfort they cannot find on their own. Not that that is a bad thing! nor do I think less of people that choose that path. We all seek comfort and since it is just a feeling and an emotion it is just as real where ever it is found.

I also am thankful for the moral compass it provides MOST societies. I personally like the kinda nexus thing like in the StarTrek movie, Generations. IF our small amount of life energy were to pass to such a place you could make a strong case for the making of your own heaven or hell by your actions and interactions. Dreams are but a short visit.

But hey! whatever floats your boat (or raft)

quote Originally posted by RTNmsds: Nick, It seems the majority here are getting stuck at question #1, so I'll let them hash that one out as they desire. Assuming that your questions had a purpose beyound that age old discussion, here are my short answers to your specific questions.... I have been guilty of many things in my life - not just of allowing others to break the laws of God. Truthfully, there are times that I am probably the cause of others breaking these laws. Not something I'm proud of, but the truth none the less. IMHO, the profession of faith is the job of everyone - not just the religious leaders - but I don't feel that this is what you are wrestling with. ********************************************************** I think the question most prevalent to you right now is, "Do you believe He gave us the right to question, doubt, or attempt to alter all or anything that He has made/created?" Is this your conflict?

Yes, in a nutshell. You have been very perceptive
My internal conflict is how we are using knowledge and skill so blindly.Without real consideration for the end results, or even seeming to discuss the ominous portent of some of our 'meddling' with our World.No responsible restraint in our actions.The apparent 'We can, and so we will' attitude.Basically, trying to BE God.We were given the ability to investigate, to think, to improve.But our arrogance in implementing some actions, whilst ignoring the catastrophic results of our actions which will undoubtedly bring terrible consequences for future generations is my main concern.I believe that everybody is fearful of death, and engage in, and avidly support,any way we can find to postpone the end.We are causing, eventually, an enormous problem of over-population in our World, because we try to create Life in ways other than the ONE way we were given, and yet do nothing to redress the balance between birth and death.What do I mean by this? Well, God forbid that we should come to a state of affairs one day when people will have to die deliberately, at a pre-ordained time, and at our hand, because we are creating too many 'New' lives for our World to sustain.For example, we accept we retire from work at a specific time (65 years generally). Why? Because we are incapable of working after that age? No.I believe the idea of that is to create an opportunity for new ,young people to work too.Apply this analogy to Life itself. People die of old age, which makes way for a new life to continue, in their place.Now, what would happen if people DIDN'T retire, and
continued to work all their lives? Instead of somebody being able to take their place in the workforce, a new job would have to be created.There are not enough 'real' jobs to go round now, let alone in the future, as robotics take over from Manpower.
What I am getting at is the way we are making Life and Death disproportionate to each other.Upsetting the balance of nature.When a life ends, it is only one space created.When a Life begins, it will demand more than the one space created by one death, because that new Life will eventually create more lives.Therefore, to keep any sort of balance, more people will have to die.Otherwise, we keep adding life to one side of the balance, and prevent death from adding to the other side of the balance, it will eventually collapse.
Now, nobody in their right mind would want to consider having to 'cull' the Human population, to maintain a population balance.But will that not become inevitable, if we keep on giving more and more people the opportunity to create a life un-naturally, when Nature ordained that some will be 'barren'? Because of some sort of humanly- conceived idea that we ALL have a right to have children? That isn't a Right, in my opinion.It is a facility bestowed by Nature.And if Nature ordains that we are to be barren, or our chosen lifestyle precludes us from being able to create a child naturally, that should be accepted, not circumvented.Now, the attitude today seems to be that it is such a small number of new lives being un-naturally created today, it will be of no consequence in the future.I tend to disagree with this attitude, but I am happy to be convinced otherwise.I stated in another thread some time ago, that life is generated at a compound rate, and death is linear.One death doesn't cause other deaths, but a new life creates more lives.This is where I see the problem exists.We choose to play God when it suits us,to create life, but we will not accept the other side of the equation..playing God's part in causing death.We all want to win the Lottery, but can't.If we all did win, it wouldn't work, would it?And if YOU have paid and played every week, following the norm, and then you find out that your nextdoor neighbour just won the jackpot without even buying a ticket...
In a nutshell, I believe we should be using science and medical technology to enhance existing lives, not extending or creating new ones.If a child is born with a deformed body, but is quite capable of living a normal lifespan, then by all means use technology to give that child a chance of enjoying that life to its full extent.Transplanting good functional limbs or organs to enhance, but not prolong that life beyond a normal period.Give sight to the blind.Give mobility to the crippled.Give the gift of hearing to the deaf.
This probably comes across as a rambling confusion of random thoughts..and that is EXACTLY what it is.And that is why I asked the questions in the first place.
And finally, what a wonderful discussion has been carried out here.No insults, no flaming...Thanks.I hope it can continue that way
Nick
------------------
fierofetish.PFF'S self-confessed Snowbird!!

Growing old is harder than growing up.
Responsibility: the solution for our World's Dilemmas..
Yahoo messenger:nickcannspain
MSN Messenger-nicholascann@hotmail.com

[This message has been edited by fierofetish (edited 09-15-2006).]

Not going to answer all the questions......

Will just say YES.... I Completely Believe In God.
Do I question his ways? NO.
Do I question some of what the church teaches...YES.

the primitives believe in gods.....

its an elevator - its a magic room! - its an elevator

keep that life preserver if ya like - heres a helmet too.
maybe the God of Thunder will make the storm pass
or maybe Posiedon or Neptune will hear your cry's and save you

you dont beleive? fine! we will kill you! burn witch burn!

quote Originally posted by Scott-Wa: Umm... how do you know what religon those dancing were? There are christian Arabs. Also... nice of you to cherry pick Koran passages, do I need to go to the trouble of posting the rest of the sections? Have you read the Koran or are you just posting what someone told you was in it? ...

The Christian Arabs don't read the Koran. I'm fairly certain that they weren't dancing, either. If they were, they need to read some. EDIT: A thought that occurred after I hit "send." The people dancing were Palestinians, among whom Christians are a hidden, if not illegal, minority. The cameras were not in Lebanon or Israel.

No more than the bible is cherry picked, but the intent is there, none the less. The Koran is available in many places on the web. I checked three; "strive against" was the most neutral translation. Christians and Jews, if they admit to being subjugated, can be slaves insead of being dead, at least untill Allah consumes them in fire.

I'll concede the incomplete reading of Genesis; it's been a while. In present circumstances, Eschatology (end times scripture) is much more interesting. The light itself was created on the first day, along with the earth itself. The containers of those lights (The "greater," "lesser" and "stars") were not created until the fourth day, after vegetation. Genesis does not recount the creation of Heaven and Hell, so do I assume that they do not exist? No, the entire book is rife with references, and Jesus spoke five time more about Hell than Heaven.

Another interesting corrolary with the two schools of thought; evolutionarily speaking, the universe came into being, then galaxies began forming, then stars, planets, then, finally the chance (mistake?) of life. The creation account emphasizes the end result, or the culmination of creation; human life. The reason creation happened in the first place. Food certainly comes before the wonder of the heavens.

The lynchpin of this argument is, of course God (the subject of this thread). I believe that He loved (still loves) you and me so much that He gave His only begotten Son.... Jesus, the Christ, was hung on a cross for us as a sin offering. He was raised on the third day, unlike Mohammed and Joseph Smith, who are still in their graves. He was witnessed for days following by hundreds of people. He wrote those scriptures (Genesis) for His good purpose; either as a true report, or a way to explain to people four thousand years ago their place in the universe. If I beleive the former, taking God at His word, I have nothing to be ashamed of when I face Him at the end of time. If the latter is true, all will be revealed to all of us, and, since billions of people will be standing there with their jaws open, I'll be in good company.

Joseph Smith and Mohammed do not equal Jesus Christ. Since Jesus is God incarnate, He has no equal. He is not a personality, nor a prophet. Mohammed would be (if God were in the business of sending them after the Resurrection) the equivalent of Jonah or Hezekaih. Joseph Smith would be equivalent to an evangelist, in his case, one who diverges from the Word.

I have to get ready for work, now....

[This message has been edited by Patrick's Dad (edited 09-15-2006).]

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: the primitives believe in gods.....

They also thought of the consequences of their actions, and took that into account before they acted. yeah, they were simplier (and perhaps ignorant to the forces around them) but I believe they "LIVED" longer then we do today.

They didn't need constant distraction (or distraction from distraction). They din't need to have so many of their population medicated. They lived "closer" to the planet.

Most people believe in God, yet so many need to be medicated to handle "life". That irks me.


True, we have built elevators, and we understand how they work, but most of us take them to places we don't wish to go. I'd rather sit on the grass, and soar in the ignorant sky then to sit in my cubicle and worship capitalism and relish at our "advanced" society.

Oooh! But we have cell phones! so ...we...can...talk...to...each...other...

Ok, Modern tech and knowledge isn't all bad, but I believe we are becoming more and more short-sighted. More concerned with petty things because we are afraid to deal with the 'real meat' of reality. or we feel powerless to change things.

Do I feel "above" those ancestors, sitting here, supporting Technology, in my tower made of steel,concrete and glass?

Am I even "Alive" right now?

I force myself to TRY to be "awake"..., during my lunch hour, when I take a walk outside, or when I tinker with my silly little robot. when I take hold of the soldering iron and play God and distract myself from the sad truth of my life. And wait until some supervisor finds a reason why I shouldn't be doing that during my lunch hour.

But, honestly my life isn't REALLY so "bad". (especially when you look at the lives of some other people with legitimate problems)

my life not so different from those that are typing away in surrounding cubicles. yet they are suffering too. I see it in their eyes, I read it in their emails, when they look at the pictures of their family on their desks or as their wallpaper... I can hear their silent screams as they click "send" on en email, wishing they were sending themselves to the island that's on their screensaver...

Do I want to be here? Well, DUH---->NOt really, but, we must work, to pay the bills, to buy food, etc. I suppose their are ways around that, but those are paths I choose not to take...

I just hate how easy it is to fall "asleep" and wake up a week later.

If it's true that humans tend to care strongly about things in close proximity, and we are more aware of more of the world...it doesn't really make us care more for the larger amount of the world now that we "know" about. yes, we get upset when we hear about something that happened halfway around the world...but it "hurts" more when a smaller thing happens to someone closer to us. Even if that thing is relatively minor.

What has this to do about God? Going back to nick's original question, I believe "God" rules supreme today, but I believe "God" does not = a diety. Religion for most has become secondary, like the Nike shoes or Mets hat. A cross Around our neck that reminds us that we are to love each other...as we work our jobs...effectively taking logs and tossing them into the fire which fuels an engine that controls a machine which grinds up people miles away. They have their own engines whcih are used to grind us up, too...

Shout from the rooftops? That would get you arrested, tossed in a rubber room, or labeled a terrorist. I don't want people to voice what I believe. I don't want to voice other's beliefs for them.

I feel the US is a "good" country, but we have made mistakes. Every country has.

I wish the political leaders would stop bringing up God so much in their speeches, but it's all intertwined. Not too fond of how they so often twist things to take advantage of people's faith, but it helps sway voters. if Fred the candidate says something like "I am against abortion" if you are against abortion too, you will likely vote for him rather then Greg, even though Greg may be the better political candidate...

So I suppose it would be silly for a political candididate NOT to use whatever tools he or she has in order to win...but it's so frustrating.



I salute the flag, and sing "God bless America", but the tears that well in my eyes have nothing to do with the Catholic "God". I don't "not" sing those parts...I never heard the versions that lacked them. My tears come from memories, and brave men and women, PEOPLE. Meat. the organic push towards progress. For people that gave their lives to keep our "concepts" alive. Concepts. Ideas. Powerful things. Perhaps I don't agree with all of them, but the alternatives are NOT my cup of tea.


No, I don't like that God is supreme, but he IS, whether we like it or not. If most people believe in him, be it Yahweh (ducks) or allah, or Shiva, or whoever(s), and our laws and rules and all that are all intertwined with religion, then yeah, God pretty much rules supreme.

Most of humanity "needs" a God, so for those of us that don't accept it, too darn bad.


"Thank GOD Cliff added the ability to filter certain topics here."

well, thats all nice, but, I do enjoy the world on a daily basis.
I am not a sad drone.
I know right & wrong. and, have done both.....I have my joys & regrets.
I dont need a sun god to enjoy the sunshine
I dont need a mountain god to enjoy skiing

Got into a little groove, and went to town, didn't you...

quote Originally posted by FieroRumor: If it's true that humans tend to care strongly about things in close proximity, and we are more aware of more of the world...it doesn't really make us care more for the larger amount of the world now that we "know" about. yes, we get upset when we hear about something that happened halfway around the world...but it "hurts" more when a smaller thing happens to someone closer to us. Even if that thing is relatively minor.

Indeed.

quote Originally posted by FieroRumor: I wish the political leaders would stop bringing up God so much in their speeches, but it's all intertwined. Not too fond of how they so often twist things to take advantage of people's faith, but it helps sway voters. if Fred the candidate says something like "I am against abortion" if you are against abortion too, you will likely vote for him rather then Greg, even though Greg may be the better political candidate...

/sigh My grandmother does exactly that. She only votes for the anti-abortion person. Doesn't matter who they are or what they stand for... She'd vote the antichrist into office if he said he was pro-life.

quote Originally posted by Scott-Wa: What is the literacy rate in the Arab world for reading the Koran in it's original language? Their clerics seem to wield a huge amount of power deciding for the masses what it says and means.

I will jump in here only to observe that this very point was one of the central issues of the Christian Reformation. The advent of printing and vastly increasing literacy in Europe meant that for the first time many people could read the Bible for themselves, but the Church continued to insist that only its priests and hierarchy could properly read and interpret Holy Scripture. Prior to the Reformation, one could know God only through the intercession of the Church. The Reformation introduced the concept of personal knowledge and understanding of God.

Does any of this have anything to do with Nick's questions? This is exactly what is so annoying about this forum. No matter what you post, the same people always turn it into arguments of their own making regardless of what the original subject was. This thread has nothing to do with politicians or reasons for being in the Middle East or even whether or not you feel you can prove whether or not there is a God. If you don't believe in God, say no and move along. Nick asked specific questions. Only about three of us have responded to his questions in full.

To put this in perspective, if this was in General Fiero Chat and someone asked how hard it is to put T-tops in a Fiero, someone would jump all over them and tell them to use the search because it had been talked about before. There is never anything new in these political and religious arguments. It is just the same people posting the same stuff over and over and over and over...

[This message has been edited by Songman (edited 09-15-2006).]

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: I dont need a mountain god to enjoy skiing

Ok, So perhaps I was a bit "droney" because I was on the phone with RIM and IBM. And because it's raining out, and because I haven't had any bacon in a loooong time.

I prayed to the goddess "Computa":


but even SHE wasn't able to revive this laptop.

So Be it.

quote Originally posted by FieroRumor: I prayed to the goddess "Computa":

IDOLITER!
the flames of hell shall consume you!
your soul will cry for eternity!
the Lord shall smite thee and thy family

quote Originally posted by Songman: Does any of this have anything to do with Nick's questions? This is exactly what is so annoying about this forum. No matter what you post, the same people always turn it into arguments of their own making regardless of what the original subject was. This thread has nothing to do with politicians or reasons for being in the Middle East or even whether or not you feel you can prove whether or not there is a God.

If you think that's a problem, then why did you add to it? In your very first post here, you do exactly what you don't want done:

quote Originally posted by Songman: A recent NBC comprehensive study showed that 92% of Americans believe in God. I was pleased to see the report because the internet sure leads you to think that Christians are the minority. I have never thought it was true but, at least on internet forums it seems like the anti-Christians are taking over the world. What Johnny means is that science has come up with hypothesis to show that God doesn't exist and the world was created in some other fashion. No proof or anything.. just good ideas. But since it is science they feel they don't really need proof. They keep looking at Christians and telling us to show proof. And of course, what proves to us that there is a God doesn't compute to them. I have no idea what the 'concept of billions of years' thing is supposed to mean. God is timeless. Billions of years are nothing to Him. God is far from dead... Christians have just been drowned out lately by others getting more time on TV. It has been a constant battle since the beginning of time and I suspect it always will be.. at least until it is too late for those who don't believe. To answer your direct questions...

Hello, pot?

quote Originally posted by Songman: Nick asked specific questions. Only about three of us have responded to his questions in full.

Do you believe in his supremacy above Mankind?

I don't like that God is supreme, but he IS, whether we like it or not. If most people believe in him, be it Yahweh (ducks) or allah, or Shiva, or whoever(s), and our laws and rules and all that are all intertwined with religion, then yeah, God pretty much rules supreme.


His vision, His planning, His design for the World?

Well, "God" for most people, I think, is not one that meddles in ourt lives on a daily basis, we have free will, and thus, we are creating our own world. If we are just 'following his plan", I'm not fond of his plan, or the design.

Do you believe He did everything for a purpose, which is unquestionable by Mankind?

The universe has a sense of order, not sure if there is a purpose. I believe that the moment we STOP asking questions is the moment we may as well just go to bed and never wake up. Even if the answer is 42, I STILL wanna know the great question...(And DON"T try tellin' me its' "How many roads must a man walk down", or I'll call you a silly mouse and steal your cheese.)

Do you believe He did everything right? Do you believe He gave us the right to question, doubt, or attempt to alter all or anything that He has made/created?


Well, this is kinda related to the last one. I think it's JUST as likely that "God" was the skinny kid that never got picked in his gym class, so he sat down and created this universe so he could have some friends that would feed him with their prayers...

If you are talking about the Catholic God, it is said he gave us free will, and the right to rule all them that creepy crawlie things...so he SHOULD be able to play with genes and create flying iguanas. he did everything right except that he forgot to create flying iguanas, and made the earth too darn small... (God: "go forth and multiply" (...oops! they might need a bigger planet..! too late now, it's done baking...darn! Oh well, I'll just toss in some plagues, wars, and some people on that other land mass and put on a mask, and appear to them, so they can create a different religion, then tell my Chosen ones (my team) to go fight 'em... You Go, God! It's yer birthday! )
If you can't answer 'YES' to the first four aforementioned questions, and 'NO' to the last, can you really be devoutly religious?If you CAN answer 'YES' to the first four, and 'NO' to the last, are you guilty by association by allowing others to break the Law of God? Should you be standing up and denouncing any of the contraventions mentioned before from the roof-tops?

As you can tell by my rantin' up there, I'm not too keen on organized religions. Not religions, just some experiences I have had with their leaders.

I AM Spiritual, but have kinda fed that part of me a big dose of "Sleethroughitall"...

Been too busy beng a 'Cog.

That's not a good thing. I'm not doing what I'm supposed to be doing...

I know this. Not just "Midlife crisus" type stuff.
I have wandered from the path in which I am supposed to follow.

No.... actually, I believe we create our paths as we go along, (Sometimes we might follow the paths of others though) so I am right where I have brought myself. I have learned things as I have travelled along. From people, from teachings, from experience, from dreams, from my job. I have been feeling the need to make a change in the path of my life. I don't feel that the calling is from God, but I won't jump up and down screaming that it isn't.

As long as I am doing "good", and not adding negativitity to the world, then I can live with myself.


---Or is that just the job of Religious Leaders?

Any group gets large wnough, there needs to be a leader(s), I suppose. Even in Fiero Groups, you see that the leaders sometimes makes mistakes, make sthe wrong choice, does something "against" what might be the interests of the group. The thing that bugs me is that in most group[s, if the leader strays too far from what the group wants, they elect someone else next time... but with religious groups, you rarely see this. They are in there for life...

quote Originally posted by ryan.hess: Hello, pot?

No.. I answered his questions, which you so cleverly left out of your post... So typical of you only posting partial quotes to show your point.

I did also respond to Johnny who was off point from the get-go.

I am always amazed at how you take any opportunity for a pot shot at me. You are one of the ones who took my link about gas getting cheaper off topic. Makes me wonder what the hell I did to you. Any time I post anything I can depend on you showing up right behind me with half of a quote to show that I am wrong. Of course I usually just have to post the rest of the quote to show the true intent of the speaker.

But anyway... You did bait me to take Nick's thread farther off track, didn't you? And I fell for it... And what is it with the childish antics of this forum with pot and kettle? Are ya'll 9? But as I showed, I did answer Nick's questions and keep the post on track.

Thank you Rumor for taking the thread back on track and responding to what Nick actually asked instead of just taking childish pots shots at me for suggesting it.

[This message has been edited by Songman (edited 09-15-2006).]

Do you believe in his supremacy above Mankind?

Yes w/o a doubt. I know what I read beginning in Genesis is truth. I know that I have questions about why people are taken from my life but I know that they went to a far better place that I can only read about and imagine what it will be like and that is HEAVEN. I am not trying to convert anybody, it is your choice to believe what you want to. I know his(Christ) plan was, he wanted us to choose to follow him that is why adam and eve ate the apple, they made a choice as we now have to make a choice to believe and follow him or not.
Whatever you do just don't twist what the bible says to get what you want out of it, either way for it or against it. Not saying anybody has done that here just saying there is more to the speech than " Ask not what your country can do for you but what you can do for your country" like anything else there is more to it than just that part of it. Meaning people pull out what sounds good.

quote Originally posted by Songman: No.. I answered his questions, which you so cleverly left out of your post... So typical of you only posting partial quotes to show your point. I did also respond to Johnny who was off point from the get-go. I am always amazed at how you take any opportunity for a pot shot at me. You are one of the ones who took my link about gas getting cheaper off topic. Makes me wonder what the hell I did to you. Any time I post anything I can depend on you showing up right behind me with half of a quote to show that I am wrong. Of course I usually just have to post the rest of the quote to show the true intent of the speaker. But anyway... You did bait me to take Nick's thread farther off track, didn't you? And I fell for it... And what is it with the childish antics of this forum with pot and kettle? Are ya'll 9? But as I showed, I did answer Nick's questions and keep the post on track. Thank you Rumor for taking the thread back on track and responding to what Nick actually asked instead of just taking childish pots shots at me for suggesting it.

My point was, you could have left out those first 3 paragraphs. They had NOTHING to do with Nick's questions. Nothing. Aside from my smart comment about nuclear weapons, I was the first person who actually answered his questions, and didn't add any extra crap about evolution, polls, or TV.

I think you're taking things a little too personally. I'll have to take a look at your gas thread, because I have no idea what I posted there. I often post crap about things that have a little bit to do with the original post, but maybe not much. I'm not trying to derail your threads, I didn't even know I was, I guess I just do.

With regards to the quotes, I got into the habit a long time ago to clip the extraneous information. Gets rid of clutter. But whatever, I'll leave the whole quote above so anyone skimming this thread can read it twice.

[This message has been edited by ryan.hess (edited 09-15-2006).]

I've only met a handful of people that have their feet on the ground - even the smart ones all have a couple little silly magical beliefs they fall for. You need to face death - it is the key to life - most people never do - most spend a lot of energy running from death - but overcoming the fear of death sets one free. The running is what fuels religion - so sad to see people huddled in a church trying to convince each other they won't die when they die. Our brains have not yet evolved to handle our ability to "what if" about our ultimate fate - our survival instincts fire up and pump up the stress.

little peons fighting about about little ideals, gods that are no more real than thor or zuus, petty little children playing king of the castle with thologies and relegions based on the fabric of imagination.

God, the human race makes me sick with thier arguments.

every single one of you sick ****s are so damn busy trying to rule somebody else, you forgot to look at who is ruling you.

iddiots.

No plain and simple.

I don’t care if you believe in Christ, God, Mohamed, or the rest. You have that right, at least in this country.

Just don’t try and save me, or convert me. I’m happy the way I feel. I will not try to make others here believe in no God and do not try to make me feel differently.

My mind is made up.

You die, your worm food.

It’s over, darkness, they don’t even let you out on the weekends.

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technology is great when it works
and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't.
Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys.

quote Originally posted by FieroRumor: I am sorry, but she is no "false idol".... I for one have witnessed her limitless power. I have seen the "Magic smoke" escape from the chassis of a once-living PC, felt the heat when she fries a Power supply, smelling the soldery fire of her rage when she pops a cap... her... ok, I admit it, I'm hot for her.

Oh man, you let the smoke out?!

Edit: Can't we all just get along? C'mon, take the personal arguments and insults to PM whydoncha?

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86 Fiero GT
-Stage eleventy billion...(pieces, that is!)

04 Mustang Cobra
-K&N FIPK
-DiabloSport Performance Tune

[This message has been edited by Hulk (edited 09-15-2006).]

Yes, I do believe in God. I also believe in big bangs. They usually destroy things. For a big bang to make anything...well it can be possible I suppose. To make something as we have, this complex and this wounderful I might think possible if there were trillions of them

quote Originally posted by fierofetish: Do you believe in his supremacy above Mankind?

Who, exactly is "his"? Allah ? Neptune's supremacy of the sea over mankind ?

quote Originally posted by fierofetish: Do you believe He gave us the right to question, doubt, or attempt to alter all or anything that He has made/created? If you can't answer 'YES' to the first four aforementioned questions, and 'NO' to the last, can you really be devoutly religious?

I can answer yes to all five. He even gave us the right to go to hell...free choice. He gave us the right to make mistakes also.

quote Originally posted by fierofetish: Or is that just the job of Religious Leaders?

Religious leaders ? Pass the crack pipe Nick.

quote Originally posted by fierofetish: But..please...No personal attacks or insults directed to anybody who replies .

I usually skip these threads. You forgot to say let everyone's belief be good for them. Too often, these thread turn into a pissing match of if he does exist or not. I got bored. This is the first time I have looked at this thread. Only because you are thread killer. Umm...starter I seem to have acomplished what you wanted. Enough for me.

Alright Nick, my "answer" (if you can call it that) can be found in your own responses...

quote My internal conflict is how we are using knowledge and skill so blindly...... /snip/..... We were given the ability to investigate, to think, to improve. But our arrogance in implementing some actions, whilst ignoring the catastrophic results of our actions which will undoubtedly bring terrible consequences for future generations is my main concern.

Got to say I agree with both of your statements, but here also is where one of your original questions you posed can lead you to an answer...

quote Do you believe He did everything for a purpose

I realize I pulled that question out without it's original suffix (, which is unquestionable by Mankind?), but that's also how I originally answered you so I'm allowed to do it again - so there - and besides - this paticular belief guides much of how I perceive the events in this world.

Your thoughts were not as rambling as you might have originally felt - they just had a lot of commentary slipped in between them. Extracting the substance, the question is pretty clear.

quote God forbid that we should come to a state of affairs one day when people will have to die deliberately, at a pre-ordained time, and at our hand, because we are creating too many 'New' lives for our World to sustain..... What I am getting at is the way we are making Life and Death disproportionate to each other. Upsetting the balance of nature..... we keep adding life to one side of the balance, and prevent death from adding to the other side of the balance, it will eventually collapse..... In a nutshell, I believe we should be using science and medical technology to enhance existing lives, not extending or creating new ones.

I'll not be so brash as to post a direct answer as the bulk of this paticular issue though (the one in the quote box above) is well beyond the scope of what I can get my arms around (i.e. the earth being overpopulated). I will however say that I am confident that it will work itself out by one mechanism or another. I'll challenge you back to ask yourself again... "Do you believe He did everything for a purpose?"

Now, does my perception mean that I will not get involved when I see something I believe is wrong? Not at all. I too am part of this world and how I interact with it also is part of it's design, but that's another story for another day.

Time for bed, got mucho soccer games tomorrow.

[This message has been edited by RTNmsds (edited 09-15-2006).]

quote Originally posted by under8ted: iddiots.

Nice irony....it deserves to be highlighted.

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Who is John Galt?