Ugh. I'm running a beta version of Vista right now cause I didn't feel like figuring a way around that. I wonder how many people are actually victims when that happens? heh
Brad
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06:43 PM
ryan.hess Member
Posts: 20784 From: Orlando, FL Registered: Dec 2002
Originally posted by Jax184: Windows 2000 forever! No WGA, not even a serial number if you remove it.
Except W2k is just NT5 and so riddled with holes that will never be patched. Not that WXP isn't full of holes but at least they are half trying to plug them still. Anyone running W2k is asking to get reamed.
WGA was never about anything but M$. Worse WGA was forced on people as a critical update as will future versions of it. If you think Vista will be any better... dream on. Vista has even worse DRM built in. You just haven't seen it yet because they want the Beta/RC code out all over.
It's really sad how none of the MS bashers get the root of the real problem.
The real scam isn't M$. It is the entire concept of software licensing that allows the vendor/author(s) to do anything they want, any time they want, using any method they want, and leaving no recourse for breaking your machine or anything else that negatively impacts you.
ALL software uses this sort of license. Even the GPL absolves the software authors from just about everything that can go wrong. The only possible out, and even then rare, is if you can find a way to make the problem a criminal act. Otherwise ALL software leaves the user hanging when things go wrong or some asshat hacks a hole into your machine thru it. This is the real BS that keeps almost the entire antivirus and security business afloat.
The current and blatant Fraud being pushed by Apple that their machines are more secure is just as much BS as anything else. The real fact is Apple was the FIRST system to have major virus problems and only dropped off the radar because so few Apple machines are in service. Apple's record on fixing problems is as bad if not worse than MS. Apple's virus problems were so bad that a group lead by Northwestern U created a project called Disinfectant that ran for years until the Comercial virus products finally decided to keep up.
Linux? Safer? That's a laugh at best. The sad fact is most linux installations, and allot of what runs on it, are left wide open by morons that don't know the first thing about locking it down. When there are holes... maybe someone gets off their ass and fixes it and maybe not. Look at the spam and other problems still going on thanks to Open Relay of both comercial and Open Source mail servers. At least the Firefox group has been trying to get out updates.
------------------ Dr. Ian Malcolm: Yeah, but your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should. (Jurasic Park)
Originally posted by theogre: Except W2k is just NT5 and so riddled with holes that will never be patched. Not that WXP isn't full of holes but at least they are half trying to plug them still. Anyone running W2k is asking to get reamed.
Windows XP is just NT5 as well... Due to the similarities to XP and the large ammount of people/banks/hospitals/companies that still use it, a lot of 2000 patches are still being released.
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02:39 AM
tutnkmn Member
Posts: 3426 From: York, England, U.K. Living in Ohio Registered: May 2006
The sad fact is most linux installations, and allot of what runs on it, are left wide open by morons that don't know the first thing about locking it down. When there are holes... maybe someone gets off their ass and fixes it and maybe not.
True, Linux is not for everyone. It may never be. It is more fundamentally secure than Windows if you are smart enough NOT to run in root all the time and know how to set up your firewall correctly. Linux should be used at this time IMHO by computer professionals with the ability to fix code themselves. I have written my own drivers and programs and been forced to re-write stuff in Linux myself. For me, no big deal, for John Q Public whooooaaa....
Sad fact, for now the worst system available (Windows) is by far the best system for the average user
Maybe in time Linux will evolve into something that John Q Public can deal with, we'll see.......
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08:25 AM
mysticfire6602 Member
Posts: 624 From: bloomsburg, pa Registered: May 2006
there is a linux for everyone, its called kubuntu (or ubuntu if you prefer gnome for some odd reason). but me personaly... i geeked out my laptop with gentoo god damn counterstrike sourse was a pain in the ass to get working in WINE, perhaps i should have tried cedega, hmm.
[This message has been edited by mysticfire6602 (edited 08-11-2006).]
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08:42 AM
tutnkmn Member
Posts: 3426 From: York, England, U.K. Living in Ohio Registered: May 2006
there is a linux for everyone, its called kubuntu (or ubuntu if you prefer gnome for some odd reason). but me personaly... i geeked out my laptop with gentoo god damn counterstrike sourse was a pain in the ass to get working in WINE, perhaps i should have tried cedega, hmm.
Kubuntu and Ubuntu are great systems, but remember, most of the general public have problems with Windows idiot-proof systems for installing software. Can you imagine John Q Public trying to figure out how to compile code or use a Debian repositorty? Even with the similarities it has been my experience that most people have difficulty transitioning to a Linux GUI (either KDE which is the closest to Windows or Gnome which just blows people's minds - or does it just blow)!
Actually it can be argued that the WIDE VARIETY of different Linux distributions is also a problem (Steven J. Vauhn-Nichols has many articles on this). Do I choose Red Hat (rpm) based systems like Fedora Core and Mandriva, et al., or Debian (deb) systems like Ubuntu, Xandros, Mepis? There are hundreds of versions of Linux. Some are good for certain things and some are better at others.
Sadly, while I would like to see everyone on Linux, there is no way in Hades that will happen anytime soon. At least in the US normal folks just don't have the tech chops to handle Linux
[This message has been edited by tutnkmn (edited 08-11-2006).]
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08:53 AM
Wichita Member
Posts: 20656 From: Wichita, Kansas Registered: Jun 2002
Linux is ok. I'll give it credit where credit is due, but Microsoft is still a great product line. You may hate them and bash them, but it's still a great company that produces great products.
If you think Linux is better that perfectly fine, but dogging Microsoft just because they actually want to make money off of their product has no merit.
People and Businesses like Microsoft for a whole host of reasons and they will continue to do so.
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09:02 AM
mysticfire6602 Member
Posts: 624 From: bloomsburg, pa Registered: May 2006
i know what ya mean about people having problems with windows. america really needs to crack the whip when it comes to education and technology, not just teach material so students can pass tests. it pisses me off so much when i have people call me asking me how to make a ****ing shortcut on their desktop!!! or how to change the background, or how to make 2000 look like xp!!!!! ugh.
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09:04 AM
dguy Member
Posts: 2416 From: Beckwith Township, ON, Canada Registered: Jan 2003
Once you disable WGA, make sure to change the "Automatic Updates" settings such that they won't be downloaded and installed without user action.
About once a month or so, a "new" WGA program is released as an update. If you set your updater to notify you and then only install updates which you select, you can ensure that WGA doesn't get accidentally re-installed and activated.
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09:11 AM
mysticfire6602 Member
Posts: 624 From: bloomsburg, pa Registered: May 2006
Linux is ok. I'll give it credit where credit is due, but Microsoft is still a great product line. You may hate them and bash them, but it's still a great company that produces great products.
If you think Linux is better that perfectly fine, but dogging Microsoft just because they actually want to make money off of their product has no merit.
People and Businesses like Microsoft for a whole host of reasons and they will continue to do so.
oh dont get me wrong, i also have an xp pro machine. i love both linux and windows. but i find that my windows machine is only being used to play games anymore. i prefer linux for everyday computing for the security, ease of use (maybe just because im a geek), and the security. i would never bash MS, i just dont find it usefull for anything but games.
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09:17 AM
buddycraigg Member
Posts: 13595 From: kansas city, mo Registered: Jul 2002
Originally posted by dguy: Once you disable WGA, make sure to change the "Automatic Updates" settings such that they won't be downloaded and installed without user action.
that was the first thing i did to my laptops when it happed to my home PC.
and i tried Linux once. i felt like an ape hitting a monolith with a stick.
Linux is ok. I'll give it credit where credit is due, but Microsoft is still a great product line. You may hate them and bash them, but it's still a great company that produces great products.
If you think Linux is better that perfectly fine, but dogging Microsoft just because they actually want to make money off of their product has no merit.
People and Businesses like Microsoft for a whole host of reasons and they will continue to do so.
M$ makes a great line of office products without a doubt and that is why we maintain an XP and a legacy box. But for internet, e-mail, etc., Linux is the choice. Stability, security and reliability. M$ office porducts = great. M$ operating systems = yuck!
Making money is one thing, good have at it, but having a virtual monopoly and extorting the public is something else!
There is really no reason why a copy of Windows should cost $200-300. In a free market economy competition is a necessary component and in operating systems that component is missing. Someday there will be an OS come along that will rival M$ Windows and cause the price of Windows to go down, but for now most people are stuck.
Hopefully the move away from a software "monoculture" will come before the "big one" hits. The "big one" being that virus that will take down the entire global network because of lack of diversity. It could happen and likely will
[This message has been edited by tutnkmn (edited 08-11-2006).]
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10:51 AM
88GTNeverfinished Member
Posts: 1809 From: Pleasanton, CA Registered: Feb 2003
I don't think $200 for an OS is that unreasonable. It's not like they are putting out a new one every 6 months. I paid $200 for XP pro 5 years ago and only 2 months ago moved it to my back up box when Vista became useable enough to load on my main rig. I'm sure I will continue to use it on my other box for several more years. They don't charge for updates (least not yet) so getting 5, 6, 7 years out of an initial $200 investment doesn't seem too bad from my perspective.
Alot of people are willing to pay $500 for a vid card that is obsolete in a year or 2. Why is paying what works out to under $40 a year over the life of an OS version so hard to swallow?
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11:21 AM
tutnkmn Member
Posts: 3426 From: York, England, U.K. Living in Ohio Registered: May 2006
Why is paying what works out to under $40 a year over the life of an OS version so hard to swallow?
Because the core of that operating system was created nearly 2 decades ago, all M$ has done is add bloat to it since then. Many volunteer programmers and engineers have given their time to help develop Windows (I used to be one) and so the argument that they pay in house programmers lots of money to develop the system is not true. There are in house guys that get paid but there are a number of volunteers as well. They would still make a TON of money on Windows if they only charged $50.00 for the OS which is about what it is worth! People right now are volunteering their time to help work out the huge number of glitches in Vista.
But really, it is not you or any other member of the rank and file that are really getting it in the bung. It is businesses that pay for "bulk licencing" packages that are being rooked to the tune of thousands of dollars. Your machine when you get it comes with Windows installed and you pay substantially less than you would to buy the OS outright because M$ gives huge breaks to OEMs to include Windows. There are usually special breaks associated with "retail" upgrade versions as well which save the consumer, not true for businesses. Now you may wonder, "What do I care how much a company pays?" Well, that cost of technology is passed along in the products that company sells to the public.
As for the system only coming out every so many years, that is a BAD thing. The only reason XP (obsolete from a tech perspective) was around soooooo long is because there were sooooo many problems with Vista. In order to even get Vista out the door later this year they have dropped a lot of stuff like Avalon!
Again, don't get me wrong. I still say Windows is useful. Even some of their legacy systems are useful. And M$ makes some good stuff, like Office. But the costs involved are exagerated by the company. Windows should not be held in great regard as some kind of software "god program." It is not, and it is too costly for what it is.
The last program I helped develop for M$:
Notice, development and test version, it also says not for retail or OEM sale. Did not get paid a dime for helping with this piece of software. The final release of this has a lot of free code in it from a lot of people. Of course today we call this a beta disc. But this was not all we received. We got a large box with engineering manuals and discs of source code (and no even today I cannot release the code so don't ask )
[This message has been edited by tutnkmn (edited 08-11-2006).]
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11:54 AM
lou_dias Member
Posts: 5256 From: Warwick, RI Registered: Jun 2000
Alot of people are willing to pay $500 for a vid card that is obsolete in a year or 2. Why is paying what works out to under $40 a year over the life of an OS version so hard to swallow?
"Alot of people..." Depends on the context, and in the context you are discussing this, your statement is wrong to an extreme degree.
If you take the number of people willing to pay $500 for a vid card divided by the number of people and businesses using windows operating systems (which is the context of the discussion), your statement changes to "hardly anyone is willing to pay $500 for a vid card". So much so, that many just want integrated graphics on the motherboard.
What a LARGE number of people are saying is that they want CHEAP computing. Let's put together a system:
$35 for a cheap motherboard with integrated sound and graphics $55 for a decent speed cpu and fan (for what they are doing) $25 for 512 mg of ram $30 case and power supply $30 for a dual sided dvd writer $10 for a keyboard and mouse $100 for a monitor
and then TWO HUNDRED DOLLARS FOR THE OPERATING SYSTEM?????
When you are looking at a $2000 computer for your high powered gaming machine, $200 for the os being only 10% and on ONE machine doesn't seem like a big deal.
When you are someone who just wants to get online, etc. you have $285 in your machine (or less) and then $200 for the OS, and that is about 40% of the cost, you are going to think that is outrageous. AND, if you are a business, and you need 30 machines, or 3000, or 30,000; you are going to think that is outrageous.
People have complained in threads about the price of gas lately, and the profits of the oil companies. Look at the profit microsoft has made and continues to make.
I'm not a microsoft basher. I'm not anti-profit. And on a comparative level, for the value if provides my life, I don't find microsoft windows xp HOME an unreasonable cost. Probably even PRO. But businesses and light users are going to look at it differently. Hope that helps you understand a little about what is so hard to swallow.
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02:18 PM
Boondawg Member
Posts: 38235 From: Displaced Alaskan Registered: Jun 2003
My slant: A 100% trouble free operating system that required NO work from the end user just to keep it half-ass functioning, MIGHT be worth $200.
But the amount of work it takes for any end user to keep an operating system 100% workable does not justify a $200 pricetag.
Would you buy a car that you had to take back to the shop twice a month to "update" it to do what it was supposed to do in the first place?!
I'm fine with $50 dollar operating systems that require "updates". Or even a $200 bullitproof system that I DON'T HAVE TO TOUCH FOR 2 YEARS! But If I buy something that I have to work on everytime I turn around, it better be at a low "as is" price.
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02:54 PM
Deabionni Member
Posts: 4086 From: Kalkaska, MI Registered: Mar 2004
What a LARGE number of people are saying is that they want CHEAP computing. Let's put together a system:
$35 for a cheap motherboard with integrated sound and graphics $55 for a decent speed cpu and fan (for what they are doing) $25 for 512 mg of ram $30 case and power supply $30 for a dual sided dvd writer $10 for a keyboard and mouse $100 for a monitor
Umm..........I'm one of those people that DO have more then that invested in my video card.
I will admit, that I bought an OEM version of Windows XP MCE just under 2 years ago when it first came out. Of course, I registered and activated it on the PC I was using at the time. Since I built my new PC a few months ago, I had to use a "Windows crack" to bypass the activation process on my copy of Windows; as per Microsoft's rules, my new PC would warrent needing to purchase a new copy of Windows.
I absolutly refuse to buy the same copy of Windows (again), just because I am using it on a diffrent PC! I'm no longer using the old PC, so if I had to purchase the same copy of Windows again; then the first copy wouldn't even be getting used today, as our old PC is no longer being used. To me, the license should be sold to the end user; so that the end user can use that software on whatever PC he is currently using. One license per PC is stupid.
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03:44 PM
88GTNeverfinished Member
Posts: 1809 From: Pleasanton, CA Registered: Feb 2003
When you are someone who just wants to get online, etc. you have $285 in your machine (or less) and then $200 for the OS, and that is about 40% of the cost, you are going to think that is outrageous. AND, if you are a business, and you need 30 machines, or 3000, or 30,000; you are going to think that is outrageous.
A whole 256MB RAM and Celeron processor, hmmm. Another example of how OEMs get breaks on Windows software. Heck they practically get it free, especially DEll, so M$ is able to keep a monopoly on computer desktops.
BTW - that machine would be incapable of running Vista (at least with all of Vista being functional that is. It might run but all the toys would be absent).
[This message has been edited by tutnkmn (edited 08-11-2006).]
True, Linux is not for everyone. It may never be. It is more fundamentally secure than Windows if you are smart enough NOT to run in root all the time and know how to set up your firewall correctly. Linux should be used at this time IMHO by computer professionals with the ability to fix code themselves. I have written my own drivers and programs and been forced to re-write stuff in Linux myself. For me, no big deal, for John Q Public whooooaaa....
Sad fact, for now the worst system available (Windows) is by far the best system for the average user
Maybe in time Linux will evolve into something that John Q Public can deal with, we'll see.......
Have you played with SuSE lately? It's as plugnplay as windows now. In fact there are plenty of distros now that are just as easy or easier to use instead of windows.
Originally posted by frontal lobe: What a LARGE number of people are saying is that they want CHEAP computing. Let's put together a system:
$35 for a cheap motherboard with integrated sound and graphics $55 for a decent speed cpu and fan (for what they are doing) $25 for 512 mg of ram $30 case and power supply $30 for a dual sided dvd writer $10 for a keyboard and mouse $100 for a monitor
and then TWO HUNDRED DOLLARS FOR THE OPERATING SYSTEM?????
If you buy the OS off the shelf yes...
Unless MS has changed the OEM license... You would have been entitled to a legal OEM license when you bought the Mobo and a couple other parts.
I haven't read the OEM license in several years. (I used to be an MS OEM licensed build shop.) It used to be you could legally sell an OEM MS package along with new mother boards and several other parts. Not just new systems. That was true for all Win9X and thru Win2K. I don't know what they did when XP came out.
Frankly people that want cheap computing are frequently doing themselves worse trying to build themselves. Dell and others have some really good packages, with fully licensed OS, for $400-600. And that often includes a monitor, likely a small LCD one at that now with many packages.
On the comment above about $hundreds on a video card... That is the exception. Not the common thing. Most people are happy with any card that will give them clean video and DVD playback. Even most "multi media" systems are far from the top performers on Video. They just don't need it.
Infact even Vista's graphic requirements are a major departure. No OS before it has had such a porked up graphic interface and frankly what I've seen of that interface, most people gain absolutely nothing but a hole in their wallet trying to run it. The vast majority of PC's available new and used right now will run Vista, may need a bit of RAM, but will not run the Aero interface because of nothing more than Bloat.
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06:50 PM
Cliff Pennock Administrator
Posts: 11600 From: Zandvoort, The Netherlands Registered: Jan 99
I installed Suse on a MicroDrive some time ago and it correctly recognized all my hardware. I didn't have to install anything manually. I can even use my Pinnacle TV card without a problem.
Cool thing is, if I want to run SuSE, I just pop in the microdrive.
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07:08 PM
tutnkmn Member
Posts: 3426 From: York, England, U.K. Living in Ohio Registered: May 2006
The vast majority of PC's available new and used right now will run Vista, may need a bit of RAM, but will not run the Aero interface because of nothing more than Bloat.
Cound not have said it better myself
And yes to muert0's post, Novell has done WONDERS with SuSE!
[This message has been edited by tutnkmn (edited 08-11-2006).]
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07:08 PM
buddycraigg Member
Posts: 13595 From: kansas city, mo Registered: Jul 2002
Frankly people that want cheap computing are frequently doing themselves worse trying to build themselves. Dell and others have some really good packages, with fully licensed OS, for $400-600. And that often includes a monitor, likely a small LCD one at that now with many packages.
Agreed. I can't get components cheap enough anymore to beat the low end Dell, HP, etc. systems.
Regarding linux distros being "plug-and-play", my experience is that they have been "plug-and-play" with everything EXCEPT wireless internet, and that is one of the major things I want it to do. I'm not computer expert enough to play with linux much, as I haven't spent much time on it. So I don't even know how to download programs onto it.
I'm no longer using the old PC, so if I had to purchase the same copy of Windows again; then the first copy wouldn't even be getting used today, as our old PC is no longer being used. To me, the license should be sold to the end user; so that the end user can use that software on whatever PC he is currently using. One license per PC is stupid.
