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Any sympathy here for these people? by fierofetish
Started on: 05-20-2006 12:31 PM
Replies: 49
Last post by: Toddster on 05-30-2006 04:27 PM
fierofetish
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Report this Post05-20-2006 12:31 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fierofetishSend a Private Message to fierofetishDirect Link to This Post
http://www.indymedia.ie/article/76034
Nick

[This message has been edited by fierofetish (edited 05-20-2006).]

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Report this Post05-20-2006 12:56 PM Click Here to See the Profile for RaydarSend a Private Message to RaydarDirect Link to This Post
Have you read any of the comments that were posted to the web page?

It doesn't seem like they are unworthy of sympathy, unless they are blatantly lying about their situation (being anti-taliban, and being persecuted for it), or are involved in suspected criminal activity. Surely if they are criminals, or have aroused any suspicions, there is a record of it.
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Report this Post05-20-2006 01:19 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fierofetishSend a Private Message to fierofetishDirect Link to This Post
Yes, Raydar. And I have made no comment either way, because I was interested in opinions from others, which might otherwise be influenced by any stance I might take.I have my own thoughts, but will sit on them for a while
Nick

[This message has been edited by fierofetish (edited 05-20-2006).]

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Report this Post05-20-2006 04:40 PM Click Here to See the Profile for RaydarSend a Private Message to RaydarDirect Link to This Post
Fair enough.

Food for thought...
I wonder if it's fair to draw a comparison to the situation in our own country.
I don't really think so, since nobody here (that I've heard of) is asking for political asylum, as these people seem to be.

And an interesting (for some people, perhaps) bit of trivia.
When I was in (Catholic) elementary school, we were taught about a concept called "sanctuary". If I understood it correctly, anyone who was being pursued for any reason could go into a church and claim "sanctuary", and the pursuers would be required to let them be.
Of course, I don't know what that "requirement" was based upon, or whether it's even honored today.
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Report this Post05-20-2006 05:33 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ToddsterSend a Private Message to ToddsterDirect Link to This Post
Same as with the illegal mexicans, I'd rather you go home and fix your broken country instead of coming here and breaking ours.
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Report this Post05-20-2006 07:13 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fierofetishSend a Private Message to fierofetishDirect Link to This Post
Toddster echoed my thoughts. If these men were back home, fighting alongside Western troops to overcome the evil in their country, I would applaud loudly.I would be happy if the women and children stayed in safety,at Government expense, whilst their menfolk stood up to the oppressors.Instead, they are just thinking of themselves, and not doing anything for their homeland.Trying to gain a better lifestyle for themselves, and to hell with those left behind.Take them to a military Academy, teach them how to fight, and pay them whilst they are being trained.Take them back to Afghanistan with the troops, and let's see them try to do something for their countrymen and women, instead of lining their own pockets in comparative safety.If they are allowed to stay, and benefit from Western Society, how many others will try to do the same.On what grounds can we refuse them, when these 'asylum seekers' are allowed to stay? These men could be trained in communications, spotting and counter-espionage successfully.They could also spread the desire to overcome their oppressors amongst their own. Risky for them? Sure..but no more risky than for those still living there.They are prepared (so they say) to sacrifce their lives for the right to stay in Europe..why not to rescue their homeland?? Easy to work THAT one out....we are a soft touch, and wouldn't let them die on our turf, for 'no good reason'...
Nick

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Report this Post05-20-2006 07:32 PM Click Here to See the Profile for PatrickSend a Private Message to PatrickDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by fierofetish:

Instead, they are just thinking of themselves...Trying to gain a better lifestyle for themselves...



Nick, I can't believe what I'm reading from you!

Why are you now living in Spain?

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Report this Post05-20-2006 07:45 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fierofetishSend a Private Message to fierofetishDirect Link to This Post
Patrick..sometimes you astound me!! My homeland is not being over-run by oppressors, killing and undermining Society..if it were, then believe me, I would be back there fighting them, not lurking in somebody else's country..illegally.Even though I am nearly sixty.I am LEGALLY here, supporting myself, paying taxes, and speaking the native language(not very well, as Avengador1 will tell you ), along with three other languages too.Where is your analogy now ?
Nick

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Report this Post05-20-2006 08:05 PM Click Here to See the Profile for PatrickSend a Private Message to PatrickDirect Link to This Post
Nick, I’m still shocked by your reasoning. These people have fled a country where anarchy rules, where death and destruction is an everyday event, and yet you’re being critical of them for wanting “to gain a better lifestyle for themselves”? Good gawd, what better reason to want to leave? You had no such horrors to run from back in Britain, yet you’ve left your homeland “to gain a better lifestyle” for yourself in Spain where it’s cheaper to live.

Sorry Nick, but who are the real chickensh!ts here - people who’ve fled their country (and probably lost everything they owned) because they were in fear for their lives, or people who simply want to enjoy a warmer climate and the opportunity to stretch their savings?

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Report this Post05-20-2006 08:41 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fierofetishSend a Private Message to fierofetishDirect Link to This Post
Patrick, anarchy only rules if people flee from it, and don't stay to put it right.If the natives won't try, why should the rest of the World do that job for them? Whilst said natives live in the same countries which are fighting THEIR war for them .Why am I a chickensh!t living amd working in Spain? I earn NOW less than 1/4 amount I was earning in England 20 years ago!! I was ASKED by Spanish businessmen to come and entertain the British Tourists, on whose money Spain became a relatively well-off Tourist Venue.I came because I was ASKED to do so.This region of Spain only thrived and prospered through Tourists' money. Hotels built, roads constructed, communication systems installed and payed for by Tourists' money, not Spanish.If the Tourist Industry had never been promoted and improved by British, Dutch and German businessmen, Spain would still be harvesting olives and oranges in the main.And the Spanish enjoy the fruits of those peoples' labours, whilst still not doing much to emulate the successs story, but sit and write rules and laws that make it more difficult.We provide the majority of Spain's export income.Tourism is an export.And a very lucrative one at that.

Nick

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Report this Post05-20-2006 08:58 PM Click Here to See the Profile for PatrickSend a Private Message to PatrickDirect Link to This Post

Now you're rationalizing, Nick.

I suppose we should also be critical of the hundreds of thousands of Jews in Europe who fled the Nazi war machine prior to and during the Second World War.

Nick, for someone who would do anything for a pet, for an animal, you’re showing very little compassion for fellow human beings whose worst crime is trying to save their own lives as well as the lives of their children and loved ones.
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Report this Post05-20-2006 09:24 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fierofetishSend a Private Message to fierofetishDirect Link to This Post
Thanks for the compliment I always aspire to being rational
I have more sympathy for those who stay and fight for their beliefs.Perhaps we should invite ALL the people from their country to come and stay with us? And leave their land to be run by these villains they are fleeing from. If we extend ,or allow, the right to those people already here, surely we are obliged to allow them all to come? How do they qualify to get here? How did they manage to get here, when so many are unable, or unwilling to leave their Homeland? What is so special about these that we allow them to stay, and yet prevent any more from coming? WHY do we prevent them all from coming? Because there isn't enough room for them all. If there isn't enough room for them all, then the same rules should apply to them all. The boat will sink with too many passengers. And the end result would be that the Crew would displace the Captain by virtue of numbers, not qualificationAnd all the legal passengers would sink too..It is happening right now.What do you suggest should be done? It is very easy to sit and pick others' opinions and views to pieces, without coming up with YOUR solution to the problem, Patrick. I am all ears, waiting for your solution ( As ever, no rancour, just enjoy listening to your side )
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Report this Post05-20-2006 09:36 PM Click Here to See the Profile for PatrickSend a Private Message to PatrickDirect Link to This Post

Nick, are you listening to what you're saying? You sound awfully, awfully bitter my friend.

I've got to get out now and mow the lawn. Back later...
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Report this Post05-20-2006 09:39 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fierofetishSend a Private Message to fierofetishDirect Link to This Post
Anybody else find that relevant? Am I sounding bitter, or rational? What have I said that makes me sound bitter?? Hmmm...maybe mowing the lawn will inspire you to provide your solution !
Nick
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Report this Post05-20-2006 11:46 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dezie36Send a Private Message to dezie36Direct Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Toddster:

Same as with the illegal mexicans, I'd rather you go home and fix your broken country instead of coming here and breaking ours.


These men aren’t leaving a poverty stricken country and entering Ireland illegally just to look for work and money to bring their whole families up illegally, they are trying to stay out of their home country where they could possibly be killed, and to me it appears they are doing it as legally as they can, they applied for amnesty but were turned down, they are making one last stand hoping someone will take pity on them... I assume if this attempt fails they will end up back in afghan. Unlike our illegals (which im not happy about).

I really see no parallels between our illegal immigration problem and this group of political refugees looking for amnesty.
If I had the ability I would welcome them here... then again if the illegals want to be here in America legally I would welcome them in as well.

[This message has been edited by dezie36 (edited 05-20-2006).]

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Report this Post05-21-2006 12:31 AM Click Here to See the Profile for PatrickSend a Private Message to PatrickDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by fierofetish:

Hmmm...maybe mowing the lawn will inspire you to provide your solution.



If I had solutions to the world's problems I wouldn't be out mowing my lawn!

Nick, read over your last five posts as if for the first time. Is this the same kind-hearted softie who starts a new thread in O/T and cries everytime his dog farts?

Seriously Nick, it's difficult for me to believe it's the same guy I've come to know here.
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Report this Post05-21-2006 08:39 AM Click Here to See the Profile for maryjaneSend a Private Message to maryjaneDirect Link to This Post
Patrick--ever consider sponsoring one of these folks for citizenship in your own country/home? That might be the way to go.
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Report this Post05-21-2006 09:47 AM Click Here to See the Profile for fierofetishSend a Private Message to fierofetishDirect Link to This Post


 
quote
Originally posted by Patrick:

Is this the same kind-hearted softie who starts a new thread in O/T and cries everytime his dog farts?

Seriously Nick, it's difficult for me to believe it's the same guy I've come to know here.


Below the belt, Patrick..even for you I wait with anticipation your reply to Maryjane's post....or will you duck that and go and mow the front lawn instead?

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Report this Post05-21-2006 10:21 AM Click Here to See the Profile for dezie36Send a Private Message to dezie36Direct Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by maryjane:

Patrick--ever consider sponsoring one of these folks for citizenship in your own country/home? That might be the way to go.

Maryjane do you know how I would go about doing this?
I know I don’t have the funds to do it my self... would I get petitions to be signed, money to be donated or just write letters to my congressmen?
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Report this Post05-21-2006 10:42 AM Click Here to See the Profile for maryjaneSend a Private Message to maryjaneDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by dezie36:

Maryjane do you know how I would go about doing this?
I know I don’t have the funds to do it my self... would I get petitions to be signed, money to be donated or just write letters to my congressmen?

Depends what you have in mind. I assume the group has a legal representation which can always use a donation. If you are interested in sponsoring an individual for a visa etc, you will have to contact the State Dept and INS for that information, however, I do know it is a lengthy process, and I believe you will have to know more than just a little about the individual you are sponsoring. There is a lot of responsibility that goes along with this-regardless of the country of origin--doubly so since 9-11. Homeland security will look hard at any newcomer, especially from that region of the globe.

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Report this Post05-21-2006 11:20 AM Click Here to See the Profile for ToddsterSend a Private Message to ToddsterDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Patrick:

Nick, I’m still shocked by your reasoning. These people have fled a country where anarchy rules, where death and destruction is an everyday event, and yet you’re being critical of them for wanting “to gain a better lifestyle for themselves”? Good gawd, what better reason to want to leave? You had no such horrors to run from back in Britain, yet you’ve left your homeland “to gain a better lifestyle” for yourself in Spain where it’s cheaper to live.

Sorry Nick, but who are the real chickensh!ts here - people who’ve fled their country (and probably lost everything they owned) because they were in fear for their lives, or people who simply want to enjoy a warmer climate and the opportunity to stretch their savings?




Patrick, you and I have had our sparing matches but I want to make a sincere point here that is fundamental to the American Ideal, and should be fundamental to all people of the world:

If everytime some bully comes along and takes your seat and makes you move somewhere else, and you capitulate, how long do you think it wil take before there are no safe seats left? This is the fight or flight arguement. Now I understand that you have to pick your battles. But when your country is overrun by thugs who rape little girls, murder women for talking back, destroy ancient history, and sponsor world terror. It's time to FIGHT...ALWAYS. These guys DEMANDING sanctuary are moral cowards. I have no problem with them moving to another country to carry on the fight, the French did it in WWII (sort of), exiled peoples of Iraq, and other countries have done so, but these people are not seeking monies from contributors to aid in the fight, they are not looking for weapons, intel, they are not writing stories of the atrocities for publication to rasie anger in the world of public opinion, they are not doing ANYTHING for their country except complaining about it and demanding the be protected by the citizens of ANOTHER country who have shown courage and determination to win in the face of overwhelming odds. The British are made of the right stuff and it deminishes their country to take people like this who are made of the wrong stuff.

[This message has been edited by Toddster (edited 05-21-2006).]

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Report this Post05-21-2006 12:00 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fierofetishSend a Private Message to fierofetishDirect Link to This Post
I composed this when I last responded to you, Patrick. I kept it back from here until I had considered all that I said.I stand by it, and so post it. I regret that it might upset yours, and a few others applecarts, and again feel no hard feelings with those who choose to disagree.
I did re-read my posts, and yours too...I think yours show a lot more bitterness than mine..and a lot less thought engendered in composing them.
1.Threatening a community with killing themselves to get their way deserves no charity, in my opinion. Daring to face up to their oppressors, and fighting for the rights they demand,in their own country, commands respect.
2.I presume from your stance, that you consider the Underground movement during WW11 was not commendable? They should have fled their country, leaving it to the Germans to invade at will, with no resistance at all? If we were to follow your reasoning, the whole WORLD would come and live in the West....
3.would you still hold the same views, if your children couldn't find a home to live in, because all the properties and work were taken by illegal immigrants? Do you not have the right to refuse a stranger demanding to come and live in your house,and you having the right to complain taken away from you ? I wonder how much of your space you would be prepared to give up, to provide refuge for an Afghan family to live in? How big is your lawn? Big enough to build a comfortable little house for them?At YOUR expense? Maybe a few Iraqi dissidents too? Albanians? Heck, we have around 50 Albanian families living in our village.They don't want to work. They sit around all day in the village square, sponsored by welfare.The children run riot, and don't go to school. They have made NO effort to provide for themselves, and are content with their lot.And these are 'Legal' immigrants.After 5 or 6 years, none have learned to speak Spanish. What will those children do, when childhood is over, and they cannot speak in the native tongue? They will have to do work that requires no basic skills. And when they look around, and see the Spanish children growing up, working hard, and supporting themselves, they will start to riot, and burn cars and houses and properties, because 'WE' have deprived them of the ability to support themselves.
4.Why are these people nurtured in the comfort of our countries, whilst young Western soldiers fight on their behalf, in THEIR countries, and many losing their young lives in the process.Send the young fit and healthy men back to fight for their OWN rights, alongside the Western soldiers..instead of them living here, and watching from afar, in those very same soldiers' homelands.Let them build the 'Promised Land' in their own countries, with the same blood, sweat and tears it took to build ours.I don't believe priviledges are free, they are earned. The Western world did not wake up one morning and discover iron, steel, coal and fabrics lying around to be used for free.We all started with the same basics in life. Land, water,air and weather.We learned to use materials.Harness them for our improvement. Invented the impossible from the improbable.We were responsible for ourselves.Let them learn responsibility for their own people.
No. I am not prepared to let my neighbour come and use my possessions,and mistreat them because he hasn’t the guts, intelligence or self-respect to repair or make his own.I help whoever, whenever I can..but not those who won’t help themselves, and DEMAND it of me with threats of suicide.
Nick
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Report this Post05-21-2006 01:16 PM Click Here to See the Profile for PatrickSend a Private Message to PatrickDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by fierofetish:

I did re-read my posts, and yours too...I think yours show a lot more bitterness than mine...



Are we reading the same thread, Nick?

I can't address all the issues raised at the moment as I'm off to look after my girlfriend's kids for the rest of the day. I shall return...

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Report this Post05-21-2006 01:58 PM Click Here to See the Profile for maryjaneSend a Private Message to maryjaneDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Patrick:


I'm off to look after my girlfriend's kids for the rest of the day. I shall return...

...bruised and battered?
I don't babysit anyone anymore--they're just too tuff for me.

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Report this Post05-21-2006 02:23 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Scott-WaClick Here to visit Scott-Wa's HomePageSend a Private Message to Scott-WaDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Toddster:
Patrick, you and I have had our sparing matches but I want to make a sincere point here that is fundamental to the American Ideal, and should be fundamental to all people of the world:

If everytime some bully comes along and takes your seat and makes you move somewhere else, and you capitulate, how long do you think it wil take before there are no safe seats left? This is the fight or flight arguement. Now I understand that you have to pick your battles. But when your country is overrun by thugs who rape little girls, murder women for talking back, destroy ancient history, and sponsor world terror. It's time to FIGHT...ALWAYS. These guys DEMANDING sanctuary are moral cowards. I have no problem with them moving to another country to carry on the fight, the French did it in WWII (sort of), exiled peoples of Iraq, and other countries have done so, but these people are not seeking monies from contributors to aid in the fight, they are not looking for weapons, intel, they are not writing stories of the atrocities for publication to rasie anger in the world of public opinion, they are not doing ANYTHING for their country except complaining about it and demanding the be protected by the citizens of ANOTHER country who have shown courage and determination to win in the face of overwhelming odds. The British are made of the right stuff and it deminishes their country to take people like this who are made of the wrong stuff.



Wow, I thought this poem had a bit more to do with the American ideal, that your welcome when cutting and running is the choice of life. Your simplification that they should stay and fight is interesting on many levels, which of the multitude of warlords, religous extremists and other nutcases should they be fighting for or against? That country hasn't got a definible enemy beyond the Taliban, and the Taliban were all that was keeping the warlords of the Northern Alliance in check. The enemy is who the US declares? What do you expect them to do when we are putting the very people back in power that we supported knocking out when we were calling the Taliban freedom fighters? Stick around and die for whichever side we back this week... we have been shooting women and children over there, who are they supposed to fight? Get killed by the Taliban, the warlords or cut down by the US? They didn't start this war, WE did.

http://pubpages.unh.edu/~mwherold/listing.htm

“The New Colossus” by Emma Lazarus

Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,
With conquering limbs astride from land to land;
Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name Mother of Exiles.
From her beacon-hand
Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.
“"Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!"” cries she
With silent lips. “Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”

You do know where that poem is placed right?
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Report this Post05-21-2006 07:13 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Scott-WaClick Here to visit Scott-Wa's HomePageSend a Private Message to Scott-WaDirect Link to This Post

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Report this Post05-21-2006 08:18 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fierofetishSend a Private Message to fierofetishDirect Link to This Post
Hi Scott. I was just wondering when that poem was penned??Also, what the population of the USA was then? I guess it was written at a time when immigrants came by the hundreds, over a long period of time.Nowadays, they can arrive in vast numbers every day.It has to be controlled now.The deathrate of population has fallen dramatically, people live possibly twice as long nowadays, contributing to a population explosion which could never have been envisaged even 150 years ago.This in itself would make the poem outdated and , unfortunately, irrelevant nowadays.It is a compound rate of increase, not simple.And I am sure the birthrate of immigrants is significantly higher than that of the 'Native' inhabitants.They are encouraged to give birth at an increased rate, to establish a larger powerbase in the future.
Unfortunately, for every genuine request for asylum, there are many more bogus ones.Unfortunately, in order to control this, the innocent must suffer.Isn't that just the way of our World, in so many different instances? The bad spoil it for the good.
Nick
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Report this Post05-21-2006 08:26 PM Click Here to See the Profile for rogergarrisonSend a Private Message to rogergarrisonDirect Link to This Post
At least there not doing it like the mexicans here....the way I read it is their requesting political asylum. Thats different than just walking in, wanting all the free government handouts, taking away your jobs, and doing it by the millions. I have to admit, that here Im not too sure how political asylum is granted and on what basis. I think its it is granted if you are in great personal danger by being returned to your home country. It somehow has to be proven, not just your say so.
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Report this Post05-22-2006 09:03 AM Click Here to See the Profile for UDLOSESend a Private Message to UDLOSEDirect Link to This Post
Im glad to see you finally have grown some stones fierofetish.
these posts dont sound like you at all, but Im glad

Patrick it sounds like you'd rather live on your knees than die on your feet.

"anyone who trades liberty for security deserves neither liberty nor security."
-Benjamin Franklin

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Report this Post05-22-2006 12:33 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Scott-WaClick Here to visit Scott-Wa's HomePageSend a Private Message to Scott-WaDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by fierofetish:

Hi Scott. I was just wondering when that poem was penned??Also, what the population of the USA was then? I guess it was written at a time when immigrants came by the hundreds, over a long period of time.Nowadays, they can arrive in vast numbers every day.It has to be controlled now.The deathrate of population has fallen dramatically, people live possibly twice as long nowadays, contributing to a population explosion which could never have been envisaged even 150 years ago.This in itself would make the poem outdated and , unfortunately, irrelevant nowadays.It is a compound rate of increase, not simple.And I am sure the birthrate of immigrants is significantly higher than that of the 'Native' inhabitants.They are encouraged to give birth at an increased rate, to establish a larger powerbase in the future.
Unfortunately, for every genuine request for asylum, there are many more bogus ones.Unfortunately, in order to control this, the innocent must suffer.Isn't that just the way of our World, in so many different instances? The bad spoil it for the good.
Nick



Written in 1883, it's on the base of the Statue of Liberty.

Between 1820 and 1920, approximately 34 million persons immigrated to the United States, three-fourths of them staying permanently.

The focus of immigration laws up until an act abolishing the practice in 1968 was to keep any oriental people out with the exception of Japanese. The border patrol was set up along the mexican border to keep out chinese, not mexicans.

I had a whole bunch more but slid sideways as it related to the english only/illegal immigrant topics... I've cut it and will paste it somewhere else.
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Report this Post05-23-2006 04:24 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fierofetishSend a Private Message to fierofetishDirect Link to This Post
Thanks for the info, Scott. I had guessed it was written on the Statue of Liberty...
Nick
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Report this Post05-26-2006 05:04 PM Click Here to See the Profile for PatrickSend a Private Message to PatrickDirect Link to This Post

I’ve been away for a few days but I’ve now returned to clean up a few loose ends. It looks as though there’s at least one end here that needs a good wipe, and that end is attached to UDLOSE. I notice his latest contribution to this forum has it’s usual stink to it.

 
quote
Originally posted by UDLOSE:

Im glad to see you finally have grown some stones fierofetish.
these posts don’t sound like you at all, but Im glad

Patrick it sounds like you'd rather live on your knees than die on your feet.



For anyone not familiar with this cretin, have a look at the posts by UDLOSE in This thread

 
quote
Originally posted by fierofetish:

Patrick... I presume from your stance, that you consider the Underground movement during WW11 was not commendable? They should have fled their country, leaving it to the Germans to invade at will, with no resistance at all? If we were to follow your reasoning, the whole WORLD would come and live in the West....



Nick, I cannot believe that you would make that ridiculous jump in logic. The story you linked to involves about three dozen men, women, and children (whom we know nothing about) seeking refuge from the death and destruction in their own country. Just because I don’t have a problem with people seeking refuge in certain situations, you’ve somehow twisted this to indicate that I would somehow find fault with the many thousands of brave resistance fighters (Jews and non-Jews alike) throughout Europe who fought the Germans during the Second World War. That is just plain nuts...

Nick, I still think you’re a good guy (honest I do), but I don’t agree with very much (probably nothing) that you’ve stated in this thread. So much so, that it’s not worth the time or effort to debate it all. The fact that a lowlife like UDLOSE is agreeing with your statements should give you pause for thought.
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Report this Post05-26-2006 09:11 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fierofetishSend a Private Message to fierofetishDirect Link to This Post
Patrick. If they chose to flee to a safe, but POOR country, and donated some sort of benefit by their presence, I would say fair enough. They have, like so many others, made potential self gain their criteria, above safety, by fleeing to a rich country.They are contributing very little to the advantage of their adopted country, if anything at all. YOU might not know about them...I do. There are many Irish people here, who have hand to hand experience with these 'Refugees'. Perhaps you would like to talk to them? With their permission, I will forward their email addresses, and you can ask them yourself. These refugees are parasites.They are like leeches, sucking the lifeblood out of their benefactors.Good, honest Irish Folk are going without, to provide for them.What the HELL do you know about them? They are given assistance, money and welfare far and above that which is given to those who pay for it. And they put nothing back. Prove I am wrong.With facts not waffle.Straight answers, Patrick, not your usual vague putdowns.How many Irish people do you know, who have just come from the same area these 'refugees' have settled in, within the last 6 weeks? I play in a 100% Irish hotel, with more than 1000 Irish people staying.Some FRESH FROM THE SAME CITY!!.Not ONE has shown any sympathy for them. They are parasites..not my words, but the words of Irish people here on holiday. Why should I listen to your vague attacks, when I can listen to firsthand commentary? Just because you are influenced by a few 'Do-gooders' on the television, doesn't mean I have to be.
Making demands, and backing them up with threats of suicide, in Ireland's holy cathedral, against the Irish themselves? They aren't even of the same religion, Patrick..they despise Protestants, Catholics, and Western religion...oh whatever.Threatening suicide in church...what next? Threatening to cut their childrens' throats, if they aren't allowed to stay? Bah.
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Report this Post05-27-2006 11:08 PM Click Here to See the Profile for PatrickSend a Private Message to PatrickDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by fierofetish:

They have, like so many others, made potential self gain their criteria, above safety, by fleeing to a rich country.

Good, honest Irish Folk are going without, to provide for them.



Nick, you appear to be contradicting yourself there. If these refugees have fled to a “rich country”, how is it that “good, honest Irish Folk are going without”?

 
quote
Originally posted by fierofetish:

Good, honest Irish Folk are going without, to provide for them.

I play in a 100% Irish hotel, with more than 1000 Irish people staying. Some FRESH FROM THE SAME CITY!!



You’re telling me there’s 1000 Irish people staying in this hotel in Spain. What is it they’re “going without” in order to provide for the refugees back home? Smaller rooms? Fewer beer? Please tell me, Nick. I want to know.

 
quote
Originally posted by fierofetish:

I play in a 100% Irish hotel, with more than 1000 Irish people staying. Some FRESH FROM THE SAME CITY!!. Not ONE has shown any sympathy for them.



Let me get this straight - At one hotel alone there are more than 1000 Irish people holidaying in Spain having a great time drinking beer and enjoying the sun.

Well, no doubt the last thing they wish to do while they’re spending money and having fun is to think about other people who've lost everything they’ve ever owned. What a surprise!

 
quote
Originally posted by fierofetish:

They are contributing very little to the advantage of their adopted country, if anything at all.

These refugees are parasites. They are like leeches, sucking the lifeblood out of their benefactors.

They are given assistance, money and welfare far and above that which is given to those who pay for it. And they put nothing back.

.....they despise Protestants, Catholics, and Western religion.



Irrefutable facts, I’m sure. Wouldn’t be any hearsay here, not a chance...

Nick, earlier in this thread I commented on how bitter you sound. You denied it then. Do you still?

 
quote
Originally posted by fierofetish:

Prove I am wrong. With facts not waffle. Straight answers, Patrick, not your usual vague putdowns.

Why should I listen to your vague attacks...?



Nick, it’s unfortunate you feel that’s all I’ve had to say. I admit I know nothing of these refugees and what they would or wouldn’t be able to contribute to Irish society. However, I suspect in reality that you know just as little about these particular people as I do. I don’t know why you’re so dead set against them, but honestly, it comes across as quite ugly and disturbing.
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Report this Post05-28-2006 08:38 AM Click Here to See the Profile for fierofetishSend a Private Message to fierofetishDirect Link to This Post
Well Patrick, I read with interest your reply. You failed to answer any of the questions I asked before, but that is neither here nor there. I will say this, in answer to your final points.Yes, without having lived in the same area or town, I have no real evidence other than that which could be termed 'hearsay'. However, having lived and worked with many, many Irish people, i do know they are a very warm, welcoming people, on the whole.I am inclined to believe what they say, over anything else somebody on the other side of the World might guess at.Due to the unfortunate actions of a few, namely the IRA and the Loyalists, the World might perceive the Irish as being belligent, aggressive thugs.That is far from the truth, on the whole.
You might not understand MY feelings about the whole situation regarding Immigrants, and so I will explain. I believe that what is good and fair for one, is good and fair for all.Providing they qualify.Now, this small group of 'Political asylum seekers' seem to have decided to demand something, rather than ask.They have no right to demand, but they have the right to ask.They demand, with threats to commit suicide in a Church, which is not even of their Faith. And the Faith they are seeking to use as a shield, does not consider suicide to be acceptable, in any instance.Moreover, they are prepared to die, so they say, for their own good and furtherance, and yet not to die fighting for their Country.Of course, we are all well aware that they don't have the guts to do it.
That is called cheating and lying in my book, and emotional blackmail.I despise that.Perhaps you consider it to be fair. I don't.
And so, to go back to my main point..there are thousands and thousands of people in their homeland, who would equally qualify for the succour they are seeking in the West.Were they able gain the means to be able to quit their homeland, in their tens of thousands, should we have the moral right to refuse them all? Or just a few..or half?? Where do you draw the line? And be fair at the same time? And then what about all the people in Somalia, or Sudan, or wherever, who are suffering other striations in life? They should come too? After all, by your thinking, they should be welcomed. Perhaps we should arrange airlifts to these countries, to make sure everybody who is 'deserving' gets the same opportunity.Let's be honest, Patrick. There is not a surfeit of employment opportunities in the West, to be able to absorb thousands and thousands of illiterate (not being insulting there, just factual), unqualified and inappropriate people into a community that can only call upon the Native population to pay for their upkeep.
Perhaps you don't suffer the same problems in Canada that Europe does.We are under siege from 'Political asylum seekers'...when half of them don't even know what Politics is. All they see is an opportunity to take advantage of a social system which was set up, and PAYED for, by the indigenous population, for their own welfare.That is not selfish, that is prudent.
The way things are going, there is not enough money to go round to pay for the retirement of the people who have worked, and contributed, all their life, only to see that money appropriated to provide housing and welfare for immigrants who do not, in the main, have the ability to care for themselves.When these immigrants reach retirement age, who pays for their pension payments? Not them. They haven't contributed anything, yet they still get it.And so the retired folk have to scrimp and go without, to give these people a far better standard of living in comparison to that which they were used to, and previously accepted in their homeland.Who pays for their medication, hospitalisation, and even burial procedure when they die? Not them. The Government (ie US) does.
When Idi Amin turfed out all the 'Indian' poulation from Uganda, they came to the UK. They had a slight advantage in that many already spoke English. But they worked their hearts out, setting up businesses, working in unison amongst themselves to establish themselves as being a genuine contribution to their new Homeland.WORKED HARD.
That is the key, Patrick. The Chinese too.I have never seen a Chinese, or Indian, or Pakistani beggar in my life, anywhere in Europe.However, I see many Morroccans, Albanians, etc begging in the streets.I see Eastern Bloc immigrants running brothels and drug-running, and people-trafficking.I see the queues for social security handouts swelled by 'Political refugees' who can't, or won't, adapt to their new homeland.I already pointed out that the village square near me is FULL of Albanians, Morroccans and other ethnic races who are content to sit around all day, speaking their own language, and smirking at the hardworking folk who go about their everyday business and chores, contributing to these handouts.The local people, who used to enjoy meeting in the square, having a coffee, and chatting amongst themselves, are now too overwhelmed to wnat to be able to do that any more. They are treated with disdain and almost outright belligerence by these immigrants, who have made it their own.
Now, you might accept that sort of treatment, and happily relinquish those established patterns to these kind of people.But I rather suspect you haven't been there yet.If you have, and still choose to come back and remonstrate with my beliefs, then I don't understand you.My support goes out in this fashion. Family, friends, Nation. Then if we have the ability to help the deserving, then willingly do so.But in their own Country, fighting against the blight which is trying to take over, and destroy their homeland.
Nick

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Report this Post05-28-2006 11:09 AM Click Here to See the Profile for ToddsterSend a Private Message to ToddsterDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Scott-Wa:


Wow, I thought this poem had a bit more to do with the American ideal, that your welcome when cutting and running is the choice of life. Your simplification that they should stay and fight is interesting on many levels, which of the multitude of warlords, religous extremists and other nutcases should they be fighting for or against? That country hasn't got a definible enemy beyond the Taliban, and the Taliban were all that was keeping the warlords of the Northern Alliance in check. The enemy is who the US declares? What do you expect them to do when we are putting the very people back in power that we supported knocking out when we were calling the Taliban freedom fighters? Stick around and die for whichever side we back this week... we have been shooting women and children over there, who are they supposed to fight? Get killed by the Taliban, the warlords or cut down by the US? They didn't start this war, WE did.

http://pubpages.unh.edu/~mwherold/listing.htm

“The New Colossus” by Emma Lazarus

Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,
With conquering limbs astride from land to land;
Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name Mother of Exiles.
From her beacon-hand
Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.
“"Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!"” cries she
With silent lips. “Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”

You do know where that poem is placed right?


It's not your bizarre opinion I disapprove of so much as the fact that your reply to my post shows a complete lack of perspicacity. Try reading my post again. When you understand it, I'll be happy to read your reply to the POINTS I actually made and not the ones you THNIK I made by just skimming it too fast.

PS, WE didn't start the war in Afghanistan, THEY did. It was all over the news. Get your history straight.

[This message has been edited by Toddster (edited 05-28-2006).]

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Report this Post05-28-2006 05:54 PM Click Here to See the Profile for PatrickSend a Private Message to PatrickDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by fierofetish:

Well Patrick, I read with interest your reply. You failed to answer any of the questions I asked...



Well, I guess that makes two of us guilty of the same infraction.

 
quote
Originally posted by fierofetish:

... having lived and worked with many, many Irish people, i do know they are a very warm, welcoming people, on the whole.



Just for the record, my father’s family trace back to Donegal, Ireland. I come by the name of “Patrick” quite honestly.

Nick, perhaps I have a different perspective than you, having grown up in a country that is 99% immigrants. (Hell, even the native Indian population immigrated to North America thousands of years ago across the Bering Straight.) My father’s family immigrated here to Vancouver back in 1920 when my father was two months old. He grew up in a neighborhood that was comprised of nothing but recent immigrants from England, Ireland, Scotland, Italy, Ukraine, Germany, Japan, China, etc. From what I understand, there was very little animosity between the differing nationalities. As a matter of fact, there seemed to be a real effort to help one another out.

Times have changed. There now seems to be a feeling by entrenched residents that immigrants only want handouts, that they don’t wish to contribute, that they wish to sponge off the generosity of taxpayers. How can this be? Has human nature all of a sudden completely changed in the last few decades? Do immigrants now no longer wish to support themselves and their families? I find this difficult to believe.

Having said that, I don’t want to our borders opened up to allow just anyone into the country. None of us want to allow criminals and other assorted lowlifes to gain entry and citizenship. However, that shouldn’t rule out everybody, as many of your comments in this thread seem to infer.

 
quote
Originally posted by fierofetish:

They are contributing very little to the advantage of their adopted country, if anything at all.

These refugees are parasites. They are like leeches, sucking the lifeblood out of their benefactors.

They are given assistance, money and welfare far and above that which is given to those who pay for it. And they put nothing back.

.....they despise Protestants, Catholics, and Western religion.



I still find it difficult to believe that these comments (among others) are from the same kind-hearted, generous fierofetish who's been posting in this forum over the last three years.

Nick, interspersed with all the trash-talk, you have brought up some valid points along the way. Yes, a line needs to be drawn somewhere in regards to the number of people allowed into a country over a specified period of time. Society can only absorb a certain number of newcomers without the system suffering from too much of a strain. However, with your sweeping generalizations, you tar every immigrant and person seeking political asylum with the same brush. This is what sounds awfully bitter to me, and this is what I’ve found objectionable in this thread.

We can agree to disagree...
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Report this Post05-28-2006 07:54 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fierofetishSend a Private Message to fierofetishDirect Link to This Post
Yes, I can see some of your points too. It is easy to make sweeping generalisations, and in a Public Forum, we do tend to generalise.However, I must point out that I am fierce in protecting my own, and my fellow countrymen, be it here in Spain, or back home in the UK.
I must agree that there ARE good people who emigrate. But it should be done through the correct channels, as far as possible. The immigrants I object to, are the ones who sneak in by the back door, and disappear overnight. Mainly aided by their fellow countrymen.Many of whom ARE legal immigrants already. And then take refuge i churches, and blackmail the local people to try and subvert the Law, and basically CHEAT.
Obviously, there are people all over the World suffering the oppression of bullies.These bullies will only reign MORE supreme if the indigenous folk run away.That is cowardice. Leaving the others to fight for their beliefs, and doing nothing to help. I already said that womenfolk and their children should be looked after, once they are here.The men should be made to do something for their country, not sit in relative safety, financed by a foreign land.
But, above all, it was the attempt to blackmail their hosts by threatening suicide in their church that sickened me.
We may well agree to disagree, and I am happy to do so. There is no bitterness or animosity coming your way from me, as I hope you would suspect.I still regard you as an internet friend, but on this occasion we could not see eye to eye. I don't have a problem with that, Patrick, and I am sure neither do you.
Till we cross swords, or link arms in the future!!
Nick

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Report this Post05-28-2006 08:37 PM Click Here to See the Profile for PatrickSend a Private Message to PatrickDirect Link to This Post
Nick, just to back up half a step...

 
quote
Originally posted by fierofetish:

They are parasites..not my words, but the words of Irish people here on holiday. They are contributing very little to the advantage of their adopted country, if anything at all. They are given assistance, money and welfare far and above that which is given to those who pay for it. And they put nothing back.



Thought you might find the following of interest:

 
quote
From the supplied link:

Having opted out of the relevant EU directive, Ireland and Denmark are now the only EU countries to maintain a complete ban on the right to work for all asylum seekers. One woman and her children have been here since 1997 and, while they have not received a deportation order, they have absolutely no guarantee of being allowed to stay, despite the fact that their children have spent the greater part of their lives in Ireland. In a recent interview, the mother who is not allowed to work, was quoted as saying: “I’m not free. I’m going day to day but I don’t know what’s tomorrow, what’s going to happen”.

Asylum seekers in Ireland are powerless to manage aspects of their lives that most of us see as basic. The system of direct provision means that they have accommodation, often in centres with few links to mainstream society, as well as their food and a cash allowance of less than €20 per week. Some 27% of all those in the direct provision system have been there for over 2 years. Unable to work or access further education, many adult asylum seekers feel a festering sense of despair. One asylum seeker expressed his frustration at being effectively immobilised for 4 years: “I am a grown man –– I should be out working, out doing something”.

Children are growing up without ever having seen a parent go out to work or indeed cook a meal and adults are almost totally isolated from Irish society though Ireland will be the permanent home for many of them.



I imagine it’s awfully difficult to contribute or give anything back to the country when according to Irish law these people are prohibited from having a job! I wonder how many of the Irish people holidaying in Spain that you’ve been speaking with are even aware of this complete ban on the right to work for all asylum seekers?

It’s a difficult situation for everyone involved. There are no easy answers. I’m just so thankful it’s not me or the people I love who are in these terrible predicaments. If I felt I was in a desperate enough situation where my family and I were to be deported to impending death, I might hole up in a church and make all kinds of idle threats as well. Who knows what any of us would actually do under similar circumstances...

Nick, we may not see eye to eye on this, but I still value our internet friendship. Hope you don't mind some of the things I said to you, but I wanted to be sure to get your attention.

[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 05-28-2006).]

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Report this Post05-28-2006 10:25 PM Click Here to See the Profile for F-I-E-R-OSend a Private Message to F-I-E-R-ODirect Link to This Post
Boo hoo hooo... what a bunch of mamby pamby sissies! Try reading up on the revolutionary war and see what some of our soldiers had too endure... some with no shoes, very poorly dressed, hardly anything to eat, some of the worst conditions there were for any army to endure winter, spring summer, fall. Granted these were men who had contracts, were given promises for land and payment... but it really pisses me off when ninnies like that hold up some place and threaten hunger strikes, camp out in tents bla bla bla to change the conditions in their country. Go to Switzerland, get a testicle implant and read some books on how to organize people in your country to rally around your cause.

Everybody is hungry? Learn how to plant gardens.
Living conditions are poor? Get people who aren't doing anything together to clean up the garbage.
Kids have no schools? Write a letter to Red Cross about getting donated school books and teach at someones house
Army sucks? Infililtrate the army and desrtoy from within.
I don't have all the answers, but I sure do get tired of malcontents expecting someone else to wipe their own lazy ass.
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