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Any sympathy here for these people? by fierofetish
Started on: 05-20-2006 12:31 PM
Replies: 49
Last post by: Toddster on 05-30-2006 04:27 PM
Patrick
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Report this Post05-28-2006 10:53 PM Click Here to See the Profile for PatrickClick Here to Email PatrickSend a Private Message to PatrickDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by F-I-E-R-O:

Boo hoo hooo... etc.



Okay Andrew, let it all out.

Welcome back...
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F-I-E-R-O
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Report this Post05-29-2006 01:28 AM Click Here to See the Profile for F-I-E-R-OClick Here to Email F-I-E-R-OSend a Private Message to F-I-E-R-ODirect Link to This Post
DAMN! I was one post short of owning this page!!!! SOAB!!!! Life is so unfair. BTW, some of these new guys are a little weird, don't cha think? And another thing, I wish I had gotten to Carlisle to meet some of the other members on here, then they'd see that not only am I extremely good looking, but I'm even funnier in person. And what's with these guys like Fie Ro who go to the trouble of showing us his fancy dancy new interior and exterior mods but can't find the time to make a few extra for some of the rest of us? What's that all about, selfish SOB... And another thing, why does Sarabear have to post so many pictures of herself all the time? I think we all know what she looks like by now, 'this is what I look like with my head tilted at an 85 degree angle, this is what I look like with the shirt I got at the mall, this is what I look like with my hair behind my ears, this is...' Egads!
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Scott-Wa
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Report this Post05-29-2006 03:32 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Scott-WaClick Here to visit Scott-Wa's HomePageClick Here to Email Scott-WaSend a Private Message to Scott-WaDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Toddster:


It's not your bizarre opinion I disapprove of so much as the fact that your reply to my post shows a complete lack of perspicacity. Try reading my post again. When you understand it, I'll be happy to read your reply to the POINTS I actually made and not the ones you THNIK I made by just skimming it too fast.

PS, WE didn't start the war in Afghanistan, THEY did. It was all over the news. Get your history straight.



People have come here to start a new life for centuries, not just to gather upmoney and arms to go fight a war in their home country. Not everyone is a soldier and needs to face death in a country where there may not be a good side to fight for. Life isn't as simple as you paint it in thread after thread.

Afghanistan started the war? I'm going to go out on a sturdy limb and guess you mean they started it because Osama was operating inside their borders. Not going back to our involvement in the Soviet Afghan war where we backed the religous wackos that were the government we have now displaced in favor of the northern alliance warlords who they were fighting back then with our weapons. The bad bad people that we wanted out, and we are now have put back in...

I'd like an explanation of your view as to how the Afghan government started this war though. Were they massing troops along the US/Afghan border? Did they create a beachhead at Myrtle Beach? Did their troops ever fire a single round at ours outside of their borders? Hindsight has shown that we can't get him ourselves, do you really believe they could have just turned him over?
I don't like the Taliban, but they weren't considered the bad guys until they couldn't/wouldn't turn over Osama. The Taliban brought a rule of law (Islamic much to my dismay) to a country torn up for thousands of years, a country dominated by warlords running around doing horrible things. Much like Saddam brought a semblence of order to Iraq through his ruthlessness, the Taliban were doing the same thing in Afghanistan. I don't believe there is anyone fighting in Afghanistan for the good of the people, not us, not the Northern Allience and not the Taliban. I don't blame anyone that wants to leave and live a better life elsewhere, the only ones fighting there are the religous nutcases vs. the power nutcases with the innocent citizens stuck in the middle where they've been for centuries. They can't shake off the oppressors like the US did in it's revolution, they had their revolution and we backed the winners... now we took them out a couple of decades later and put the warlords back in.
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Toddster
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Report this Post05-29-2006 12:58 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ToddsterClick Here to Email ToddsterSend a Private Message to ToddsterDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Scott-Wa:


People have come here to start a new life for centuries, not just to gather upmoney and arms to go fight a war in their home country. Not everyone is a soldier and needs to face death in a country where there may not be a good side to fight for. Life isn't as simple as you paint it in thread after thread.


True. Some even came to escape persecution. However, you are wrong about everybody not being a soldier. Every freedom loving person IS a soldier when your way of life is under attack. Now you can choose to defend that way of life (fight), capitulate (become a slave), or run away and seek the protect of others (flight). If you fight, you are a soldier; if you capitulate, you obviously don't value freedom/life as much as existence; and if you run away, you are stating that you DO value freedom but are either incapable or unwilling to carry on the fight then and there. If you are incapable of carrying on the fight then you are STILL a soldier, just in retreat to regroup. If you are unwilling, then you are a coward and a leech on society. In other words, the cowards and the slaves are the only ones who are not soldiers. If you escape another country because you value freedom but are unwilling to fight for it and expect someone else to do the fighting for you then you are the WORST kind of coward. So which are these protestors? Slaves or cowards?

 
quote

Afghanistan started the war? I'm going to go out on a sturdy limb and guess you mean they started it because Osama was operating inside their borders. Not going back to our involvement in the Soviet Afghan war where we backed the religous wackos that were the government we have now displaced in favor of the northern alliance warlords who they were fighting back then with our weapons. The bad bad people that we wanted out, and we are now have put back in...

I'd like an explanation of your view as to how the Afghan government started this war though. Were they massing troops along the US/Afghan border? Did they create a beachhead at Myrtle Beach? Did their troops ever fire a single round at ours outside of their borders? Hindsight has shown that we can't get him ourselves, do you really believe they could have just turned him over?
I don't like the Taliban, but they weren't considered the bad guys until they couldn't/wouldn't turn over Osama. The Taliban brought a rule of law (Islamic much to my dismay) to a country torn up for thousands of years, a country dominated by warlords running around doing horrible things. Much like Saddam brought a semblence of order to Iraq through his ruthlessness, the Taliban were doing the same thing in Afghanistan. I don't believe there is anyone fighting in Afghanistan for the good of the people, not us, not the Northern Allience and not the Taliban. I don't blame anyone that wants to leave and live a better life elsewhere, the only ones fighting there are the religous nutcases vs. the power nutcases with the innocent citizens stuck in the middle where they've been for centuries. They can't shake off the oppressors like the US did in it's revolution, they had their revolution and we backed the winners... now we took them out a couple of decades later and put the warlords back in.


The Taliban were not considered the bad guys until the wouldn't turn Osama over? Like I said before, read your history. They have ALWAYS been considered the bad guys. They were number one on the list of Human Right Violators and the US policy is that "WE WILL MAKE NO DISTINCTION BETWEEN THE TERRORISTS AND THOSE WHO HARBOR THEM". The Taliban gave Osama land for terrorist training camps, financial backing, and political protection. A beachhead at Mirtle Beach? You are a little to far south. The beachhead was in lower Manhattan and Washington DC. DON'T be so naive as to think that the Taliban were innocent little lambs in the 9/11 attacks. They were hip deep in them. They started this war and you seem to be the only one who doesn't see that.

And if you think the US isn't fighting for the good of the people I pity your intellect. Exactly what source of "power" are we there to get? Afghanistan is a land locked country with ZERO resources. They have no oil, no minerals, no strategic importance, zip. We are there to bring peace and democracy to the region. And to make Afghanistan a friend instead of an enemy for our own long term protection.

 
quote
Much like Saddam brought a semblence of order to Iraq through his ruthlessness, the Taliban were doing the same thing in Afghanistan.


This comment is so deep into wackyville I can barely imagine how to respond. Order? Is that what you value? Freedom is irrelevant as long as we have order? Is that your position? If so, we have nothing further to discuss.

[This message has been edited by Toddster (edited 05-29-2006).]

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Scott-Wa
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Report this Post05-29-2006 02:02 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Scott-WaClick Here to visit Scott-Wa's HomePageClick Here to Email Scott-WaSend a Private Message to Scott-WaDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Toddster:


This comment is so deep into wackyville I can barely imagine how to respond. Order? Is that what you value? Freedom is irrelevant as long as we have order? Is that your position? If so, we have nothing further to discuss.




It isn't what I value, but it's a reality. You ask for people to fight for their freedom against oppressors when the only choices are which oppressors, the random come kill you in your sleep because they feel like it type or the brutal ruler type where you know what will get you killed. The American constitution/bill of rights type ideal isn't an option on the table, read the constitution they have put together with our help... it's a theorcracy under Islamic law.

Your comment about harboring terrorists is short term history, standard for discussions like this, ignore what created the problem, barge in and hope bombing and shooting will provide a long term solution.

I was right, you blame a foreign government that was/is in the midst of a civil war, decimated by decades of war where we backed the group of religous extremists. The Taliban funded the terrorists? Maybe, but if you use funding as the basis of who to attack, invade Saudi Arabia that is where the money came from, who the people were, attack Saudi Arabia and Pakistan, that's where the terrorists came from. Wait, let's attack american flight schools, that's where they got the training needed to carry out the attacks... I don't think a training camp in the mountains of Afghanistan taught them how to fly jumbo jets. It's the Bush syndrome, simplify a situation until you can declare someone visible the enemy, make sure you don't have personal business ties with them and bombs away.

No resources? Come on get your head out of the sand or whatever dark place it's residing...

From our government in 2004 http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/cabs/afghan.html

Energy Overview
Between the 1960s and mid-1980s, the Soviets had identified more than 15 oil and gas fields in northern Afghanistan. Only three gas fields -- Khwaja Gogerdak, Djarquduk, and Yatimtaq – were developed in the area surrounding Sheberghan, which is located about 120 kilometers west of Mazar-i-Sharif. Afghan natural gas production reached 275 million cubic feet per day (Mmcf/d) in the mid-1970s. The Djarquduk field was brought online during that period and boosted Afghan natural gas output to a peak of 385 Mmcf/d by 1978. About 100 mmcf/d of this amount was used locally in gas distribution systems in Sheberghan and Mazar-i-Sharif as well as at a 100,000 mt/y urea plant located near Mazar-i-Sharif. One oil field, Angot, was developed in the late 1960s, but aside from production tests, oil production was intermittent, with daily outputs averaging 500 b/d or less.

Northern Afghanistan has proved, probable and possible natural gas reserves of about 5 trillion cubic feet (Tcf). This area, which is a southward extension of the highly prolific, natural gas-prone Amu Darya Basin, has the potential to hold a sizable undiscovered gas resource base, especially in sedimentary layers deeper than what were developed during the Soviet era. Afghanistan’s crude oil potential is more modest, with perhaps up to 100 million barrels of medium-gravity recoverable from Angot and other fields that are undeveloped. Afghanistan also may possess relatively small volumes of gas liquids and condensate.

Besides oil and natural gas, Afghanistan also is estimated to have 73 million tons of coal reserves, most of which is located in the region between Herat and Badashkan in the northern part of the country. Although Afghanistan produced over 100,000 short tons of coal annually as late as the early 1990s, as of 2000, the country was producing only around 1,000 short tons.

Afghanistan as an Energy Transit Route
Due to its location between the oil and natural gas reserves of the Caspian Basin and the Indian Ocean, Afghanistan has long been mentioned as a potential pipeline route, though in the near term, several obstacles will likely prevent Afghanistan from becoming an energy transit corridor. During the mid-1990s, Unocal had pursued a possible natural gas pipeline from Turkmenistan's Dauletabad-Donmez gas basin via Afghanistan to Pakistan, but pulled out after the U.S. missile strikes against Afghanistan in August 1998. The Afghan government under President Karzai has tried to revive the Trans-Afghan Pipeline (TAP) plan, with periodic talks held between the governments of Afghanistan, Pakistan, and Turkmenistan on the issue, but little progress appears to have been made as of early June 2004 (despite the signature on December 9, 2003, of a protocol on the pipeline by the governments of Afghanistan, Pakistan and Turkmenistan). President Karzai has stated his belief that the project could generate $100-$300 million per year in transit fees for Afghanistan, while creating thousands of jobs in the country.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trans-Afghanistan_Pipeline I think this pipeline was a major part in targetting Afghanistan. It had been stopped repeatedly by the Taliban, yet bingo an agreement is signed to build it within a year of our invasion, almost like it was planned all along.
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Scott-Wa
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Report this Post05-29-2006 02:19 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Scott-WaClick Here to visit Scott-Wa's HomePageClick Here to Email Scott-WaSend a Private Message to Scott-WaDirect Link to This Post
http://www.truthout.org/docs_01/01.14A.Zalmay.Oil.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taliban

Notice it was our ALLIES the Northern Alliance that invited Osama to Afghanistan, it was our ALLIES the Saudis that paid for the Taliban and Osama's operations. The Taliban sucks, but they were serving a purpose that the people supported because the other option was worse. Kinda like choosing to be a Republican or Democrat... most here consider the independants the fools, but there you consider that their duty to fight against not one, but both powerblocks.
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Report this Post05-29-2006 02:26 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Scott-WaClick Here to visit Scott-Wa's HomePageClick Here to Email Scott-WaSend a Private Message to Scott-WaDirect Link to This Post
An interesting article on how the Taliban came about... it's not a simple situation and my understanding of it changes the more I read.

http://meria.idc.ac.il/journal/2002/issue1/jv6n1a1.html
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Report this Post05-30-2006 03:30 AM Click Here to See the Profile for fierofetishClick Here to Email fierofetishSend a Private Message to fierofetishDirect Link to This Post
quote
Build me a son, O Lord, who will be strong enough to know when he is weak, and brave enough to face himself when he is afraid; one who will be proud and unbending in honest defeat, and humble and gentle in victory. Build me a son whose wishbone will not be where his backbone should be; a son who will know Thee and that to know himself is the foundation stone of knowledge. Lead him I pray, not in the path of ease and comfort, but under the stress and spur of difficulties and challenge. Here let him learn to stand up in the storm; here let him learn compassion for those who fail. Build me a son whose heart will be clear, whose goal will be high; a son who will master himself before he seeks to master other men; one who will learn to laugh, yet never forget how to weep; one who will reach into the future, yet never forget the past.

And after all these things are his, add, I pray, enough of a sense of humor, so that he may always be serious, yet never take himself too seriously. Give him humility, so that he may always remember the simplicity of true greatness, the open mind of true wisdom, the meekness of true strength. Then, I, his father, will dare to whisper, have not lived in vain [end quote]

I saw this in a thread, quoted by Trailboss....attributed to General Mcarthur... I think it goes pretty well here, for the 'Asylum seekers' to read and inwardly digest
Nick
Thanks Trailboss!!
Edit..hmmm. Having reread it, it applies equally to me...
Nick

[This message has been edited by fierofetish (edited 05-30-2006).]

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Patrick
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Report this Post05-30-2006 10:44 AM Click Here to See the Profile for PatrickClick Here to Email PatrickSend a Private Message to PatrickDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by fierofetish:

...for the 'Asylum seekers' to read and inwardly digest



Yeah, I guess they'd have plenty of time to do so since they are prohibited by Irish law from being allowed to work.
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Report this Post05-30-2006 04:27 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ToddsterClick Here to Email ToddsterSend a Private Message to ToddsterDirect Link to This Post
 
quote

It isn't what I value, but it's a reality.


How so? I know, I know, I've heard all the crap about dictatorships being more"efficient" forms of government but at what cost? The brutality of domination is not worth the price of stability that ONLY benefits those in power. Afterall, being beaten once a day at precisely 9:30 am MAY be more efficient but it is hardly desirable. Hence the point is mute.

 
quote
You ask for people to fight for their freedom against oppressors when the only choices are which oppressors, the random come kill you in your sleep because they feel like it type or the brutal ruler type where you know what will get you killed. The American constitution/bill of rights type ideal isn't an option on the table, read the constitution they have put together with our help... it's a theorcracy under Islamic law.


America is NOT an oppressor, it is a liberator. My question still remains unanswered...WHY AFGHANISTAN? What resources do they have that we could possibly want? NOTHING! We are there for one and ONLY one reason, our national security. They attacked us, we fought back. You are trying to make this situation more complicated than it is. That is why we are there. Some problems actually DO have simple answers.


 
quote

Your comment about harboring terrorists is short term history, standard for discussions like this, ignore what created the problem, barge in and hope bombing and shooting will provide a long term solution.


It's short term history because Terrorism as a weapon has a short term history. It began in 1968, to be exact. And I am not ignoring the problem. You simply misunderstand the problem. You want to believe America has bled these countries dry and their misery is our fault. BULLSHIT! They are trading partners and their happiness, prosperity, and sense of self worth is their own responsibility. The middle east has oil to sell and we buy it...for quite a nice price too BTW! If the people don't feel they are getting their fair share then DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT! Americans did when the British imposed the Stamp Act of 1765 (I think it was 1765 anyway, could be off a few years). We stood up and fought for OUR freedom. So why then are these punks sitting in to DEMAND rights they have not earned the hard way? They won't fix their own country which is the way it is NOT because of America but because of THEIR value system. We haven't the right o interfere with the internal affairs of other countries unless they represent a dirtect threat to us. What would you have America do? Stop buying oil at a 1400% mark-up because its just such an unfair price? These people are leeches and should be sen as such. They have no right to the HARD earned freedom of the British. That country went through a lot to achieve the level of individual liberty and prosperity is enjoys today. Who are these punk kids to say that they deserve it when they have been unwilling to go through the same trails on their own?

 
quote

I was right, you blame a foreign government that was/is in the midst of a civil war, decimated by decades of war where we backed the group of religous extremists. The Taliban funded the terrorists? Maybe, but if you use funding as the basis of who to attack, invade Saudi Arabia that is where the money came from, who the people were, attack Saudi Arabia and Pakistan, that's where the terrorists came from. Wait, let's attack american flight schools, that's where they got the training needed to carry out the attacks... I don't think a training camp in the mountains of Afghanistan taught them how to fly jumbo jets. It's the Bush syndrome, simplify a situation until you can declare someone visible the enemy, make sure you don't have personal business ties with them and bombs away.


This logic is so bizarre you are dangerously close to madness. Bush syndrome? And YOU have the nerve to claim we are oversimplfying? Sheesh. The reason the terrorists are pissed off is because they are powerless young people easily lead astray by power hungry clerics who literally have the control of life and death by the utterance of a single word. They are easily manipulated to act "for God" to kill the enemy. What enemy? Americans? Why? Because we actually DO have power. Despots fear democracy and fight it tooth and nail. IT has nothing to do with oil. Maybe the taliban funded Osama? No maybe about it. They did. They are the CAUSE of the problem, not the RESULT as you would have us believe.

 
quote

No resources? Come on get your head out of the sand or whatever dark place it's residing...


Your joking right? Read those stats again will ya. 100 million barrels of medium grade crude? You have more than that in your average pimple. Do the math Scott. 100 million barrels x $70 per barrel is $7 Billion dollars. The Billions it cost to invade Afghanistan will NEVER be recovered even if we sucked EVERY single drop of goo out of that forsaken waste land. THEY HAVE NOTHING! The pipe line? A convenience, nothing more or less. Certainly not worth the cost. Why is it so hard for you to accept the obvious? We went to war because they attacked us. Period.

PS, stop using wikipedia as a reference source. It is notoriously inaccurate and details are not policed. More than one lawsuit has been filed for slander and liable.
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