Well cali thats a diff animal. Do you speak english. well then you're qualified for an asst mgr position. But get a raise over 30k and you're looking at getting nailed for a rich tax. Better yet.. piss in the streets an do plenty of 420 and you can live off of Telegrams money.. ya SF might be full of stinky ppl but why work when you can live off of his taxes.
SF a little warm for you then try Seattle, or if you're really into earning your welfare try Duluth MN.. ya it's cold but free medical and a SSI check mailed to your favorite bar should work.
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01:00 AM
Xantavar Member
Posts: 1158 From: Big Rapids, MI...Ferris State Registered: Nov 2002
I guess that's why it's called minimum wage. The minimum to survive in the U.S. under conditions current in the economy.
I've lived with minimum wage before. Not easy in the least, especially compared to the economy now. No public transportation outside of large scale metro areas can be a real pain when you start to add the costs of owning a car.
I agree with jstricker and anyone else on the matter of "Do what you have to do to survive". I have done it (I did have my ex-fiance living with me at the time making close to min wage as well), and still managed to hold a house and two cars on the road. Not easy.
Where I work, within walking distance in Elkhart, IN, there are efficiency apartments for rent at $299 a month. If you have two legs and two arms, you can have a job at one of the many trailer factories in the area here for $10 an hour on up. Many are in competition with each other and will pay more to those with experience at the job. Hell...around here you can still get jobs without a high school diploma.
It all comes down to the way Americans are used to living these days. Many wouldn't consider the option of thinning out a wardrobe, shopping at goodwill, visiting the thrift for a needed item, or going to Aldis for food. We actually have it pretty damn good, even at minimum wage.
You could be in a cardboard box or at a homeless shelter after all.
[This message has been edited by Xantavar (edited 05-25-2006).]
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05:28 AM
BobadooFunk Member
Posts: 5436 From: Pittsburgh PA Registered: Jun 2003
Originally posted by Uaana: Better yet.. piss in the streets an do plenty of 420 and you can live off of Telegrams money.. ya SF might be full of stinky ppl but why work when you can live off of his taxes.
I don't pay taxes. I have no income. Zero. I'm one of those "stinky people". We appreciate your compassionate description of our condition.
My vette cost me $240 @ year for full coverage, agreed value insurance with State Farm. My new Magnum runs around $500 @ year as my daily driver. Both have 100K/300L/100K coverages.
You cant even rent an empty garage to park your car for $250 @ month around here. Natural Gas and Elec run about $300.
This is a government website, it's as accurate as it can be.
Minimum wage when I started my first job was $3.10, so adjusting for inflation it should now be $7.62 just to break even. So, it's now $247 less than it should be just on that one fact alone.
Here's a website that shows the relationship of minimum wage and poverty over several decades:
May 23, 1994 Kansas City Board of Trade wheat closed at $4.51/bu. Adjusted for inflation that would be $6.16/bu. Todays closing price, $5.17/bu Or we can go back to 1980, when wheat price was $3.78/bu. Adjusted for inflation that would be $9.29/bu. Today's closing price is still $5.17/bu.
And if you say we have incresed yield, etc., we can adjust that too.
In 1980 the average yield was 35 bu/acre, price $3.78, total 132.30/acre. Adjusted for inflation that's $325.13/acre. In 1994 the average yield was 38 bu/acre, price $4.51/bu, total $171.38/acre. Adjusted for inflation that's $234.17.
Haven't cut this years crop yet, but in 2004 the yield was 37 bu/acre, price $3.25, total of $120.25. Adjust that for inflation for today and it's $128.91.
Yep, I'm all for adjusting for inflation. If you think it should work for minimum wage, can we have it work for the price of wheat as well??
I actually do agree with you Jazzman in that the minimum wage is due for an increase, if we're going to have a minimum wage at all, but I don't think you can go with what the overall CPI is. For example, food has NOT increased at anywhere near the overall CPI over the last 20 years or so. Energy has gone up way more than the overall CPI as it is NOW, but not if you go back the last few years. Clothing has gone up, but the item that does concern me for those that can least afford it is health care, that has exceeded the overall CPI.
In short, I agree it's probably due for a raise, but not to the extent of the CPI.
John Stricker
quote
Originally posted by JazzMan:
To see what minimum wage would be worth now if it had kept up with inflation, go here:
This is a government website, it's as accurate as it can be.
Minimum wage when I started my first job was $3.10, so adjusting for inflation it should now be $7.62 just to break even. So, it's now $2.62 less than it should be just on that one fact alone.
Here's a website that shows the relationship of minimum wage and poverty over several decades:
Using one or two items to say that the CPI doesn't reflect real wage deflation is, well, misleading in my honest opinion. Energy prices have skyrocketed, doubling or more in the last few years alone. Comparing to a spike in the 1980's isn't really relevant because prices didn't stay that high indefinitely relative to minimum wage income levels. Most low wage earners of the day struggled and sacrified, giving up school, savings, selling possessions, etc, to make it through that spike.Many didn't make it through at all, they were financially ruined. Just for reference, here's a chart:
The cost of housing has skyrocketed too, in part due to speculative real estate transactions, and more importantly housing costs in areas that actually have jobs has gone way up. I bet I can find affordable housing out in the middle of Nowhere, KS, but in all metropolitan areas of this country housing costs have easily doubled or tripled in the last ten to fifteen years alone.
So sure, wheat is slightly cheaper now after adjusting for inflation, or for that matter cheaper in actual dollars, but the cost of processing that wheat into end food products, transporting it to stores, and buying it have gone up quite a bit. Everything has gone up, some more than others, but up it surely has gone. Every attempt to increase the minimum wage in the last five years has been blocked by the current administration. That's not surprising.
JazzMan
Let's see............
May 23, 1994 Kansas City Board of Trade wheat closed at $4.51/bu. Adjusted for inflation that would be $6.16/bu. Todays closing price, $5.17/bu Or we can go back to 1980, when wheat price was $3.78/bu. Adjusted for inflation that would be $9.29/bu. Today's closing price is still $5.17/bu.
And if you say we have incresed yield, etc., we can adjust that too.
In 1980 the average yield was 35 bu/acre, price $3.78, total 132.30/acre. Adjusted for inflation that's $325.13/acre. In 1994 the average yield was 38 bu/acre, price $4.51/bu, total $171.38/acre. Adjusted for inflation that's $234.17.
Haven't cut this years crop yet, but in 2004 the yield was 37 bu/acre, price $3.25, total of $120.25. Adjust that for inflation for today and it's $128.91.
Yep, I'm all for adjusting for inflation. If you think it should work for minimum wage, can we have it work for the price of wheat as well??
I actually do agree with you Jazzman in that the minimum wage is due for an increase, if we're going to have a minimum wage at all, but I don't think you can go with what the overall CPI is. For example, food has NOT increased at anywhere near the overall CPI over the last 20 years or so. Energy has gone up way more than the overall CPI as it is NOW, but not if you go back the last few years. Clothing has gone up, but the item that does concern me for those that can least afford it is health care, that has exceeded the overall CPI.
In short, I agree it's probably due for a raise, but not to the extent of the CPI.
John Stricker [/QUOTE]
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07:07 PM
jstricker Member
Posts: 12956 From: Russell, KS USA Registered: Apr 2002
The CPI represents all goods and services purchased for consumption by the reference population (U or W) BLS has classified all expenditure items into more than 200 categories, arranged into eight major groups. Major groups and examples of categories in each are as follows:
FOOD AND BEVERAGES (breakfast cereal, milk, coffee, chicken, wine, service meals and snacks) HOUSING (rent of primary residence, owners' equivalent rent, fuel oil, bedroom furniture) APPAREL (men's shirts and sweaters, women's dresses, jewelry) TRANSPORTATION (new vehicles, airline fares, gasoline, motor vehicle insurance) MEDICAL CARE (prescription drugs and medical supplies, physicians' services, eyeglasses and eye care, hospital services) RECREATION (televisions, pets and pet products, sports equipment, admissions); EDUCATION AND COMMUNICATION (college tuition, postage, telephone services, computer software and accessories); OTHER GOODS AND SERVICES (tobacco and smoking products, haircuts and other personal services, funeral expenses).
A minimum wage worker isn't buying a new car, Jazzman. Not taking many trips on airlines either. Recreation expenses would be nearly non-existent. I don't think toabacco and smoking products should be included either, along with wine and other alcohol. These are all luxury items that someone trying to feed a family on minimum wage ins't going to be buying and IMHO shouldn't be included in the calculation. Note one thing that is NOT in there is TAXES.
I'll say it again, although many of you think it cold, if you can't afford to buy a home or LIVE somewhere, move somewhere cheaper. Minimum wage is NOT set up, and has never been set up, to allow people to make enough money to do what they want when they want where they want. To obtain THAT standard of living they need to have skills that are worth substantially more than minimum wage.
Wheat is SLIGHTLY cheaper now when adjusted for inflation?!?!?!?! That's the understatement of the year. It's 50% below inflation. In 1974 Dad bought a new tractor for $14,000 in cash. The same tractor now is over $100,000. He bought a 1 year old combine for $8,500 cash. The same thing now is almost $150,000. (A new machine the size I run now is pushing $300,000). Look back at the figures, Jazzman. The wheat from an acre of ground buys less than 1/2 what id did in 1994 and almost 1/3 of what it did in 1980. That's a heck of a lot more than "slightly cheaper".
John Stricker
quote
Originally posted by JazzMan:
Using one or two items to say that the CPI doesn't reflect real wage deflation is, well, misleading in my honest opinion. Energy prices have skyrocketed, doubling or more in the last few years alone. Comparing to a spike in the 1980's isn't really relevant because prices didn't stay that high indefinitely relative to minimum wage income levels. Most low wage earners of the day struggled and sacrified, giving up school, savings, selling possessions, etc, to make it through that spike.Many didn't make it through at all, they were financially ruined. Just for reference, here's a chart:
The cost of housing has skyrocketed too, in part due to speculative real estate transactions, and more importantly housing costs in areas that actually have jobs has gone way up. I bet I can find affordable housing out in the middle of Nowhere, KS, but in all metropolitan areas of this country housing costs have easily doubled or tripled in the last ten to fifteen years alone.
So sure, wheat is slightly cheaper now after adjusting for inflation, or for that matter cheaper in actual dollars, but the cost of processing that wheat into end food products, transporting it to stores, and buying it have gone up quite a bit. Everything has gone up, some more than others, but up it surely has gone. Every attempt to increase the minimum wage in the last five years has been blocked by the current administration. That's not surprising.
JazzMan
[This message has been edited by jstricker (edited 05-23-2006).]
In 1977, (the 1st year I held a civilian job as a non-teenager) when I 1st went into the oilfield, oil was around $32/bbl+/-. It's now around $70/bbl+/-. Taken nearly 30 yrs to about double in price. Not suprising considering the worldwide increase in demand over the same period, the fact that it is non-renewable, and an import item in many places.
If a person can't make it where they live--move. If the water were no good they would move. If there were no food, they would move. If there was no infrastructure they would move. If there were no schools, and they had kids, they would move. Why do people chose to stay where they are when they can't afford to make it there as they want to? Energy prices will never recede to any extent--ever. Housing costs aren't going to recede much either, unless all the businesses up and go away-ghost town scenario.
I'm beginning to think the illegal aliens coming accross the border everyday are smarter than a lot of Americans.
[This message has been edited by maryjane (edited 05-23-2006).]
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08:06 PM
GDS-1 Member
Posts: 157 From: Tacoma,WA,USA Registered: Feb 2006
In 1977, (the 1st year I held a civilian job as a non-teenager) when I 1st went into the oilfield, oil was around $32/bbl+/-. It's now around $70/bbl+/-. Taken nearly 30 yrs to about double in price. Not suprising considering the worldwide increase in demand over the same period, the fact that it is non-renewable, and an import item in many places.
Yeah, that's federal minimal wage. In Washington State, minimum wage is $7.63 an hour, more than Hawaii.
Cost of living here is on the rise. In Pierce County, housing prices almost 50% on average and just renting an apartment is rediculous! In King County (includes Seattle) is even higher.
$7.63 an hour doesn't do SQUAT.
So when anybody say that they are creating new jobs, you better ask how much they're paying for hour.
In 1977, (the 1st year I held a civilian job as a non-teenager) when I 1st went into the oilfield, oil was around $32/bbl+/-. It's now around $70/bbl+/-. Taken nearly 30 yrs to about double in price. Not suprising considering the worldwide increase in demand over the same period, the fact that it is non-renewable, and an import item in many places.
If a person can't make it where they live--move. If the water were no good they would move. If there were no food, they would move. If there was no infrastructure they would move. If there were no schools, and they had kids, they would move. Why do people chose to stay where they are when they can't afford to make it there as they want to? Energy prices will never recede to any extent--ever. Housing costs aren't going to recede much either, unless all the businesses up and go away-ghost town scenario.
I'm beginning to think the illegal aliens coming accross the border everyday are smarter than a lot of Americans.
I'm glad to see that you're willing and able to pickup all the relocation costs of a family that needs to move somewhere else to get a great paying job. After all, poor people living from check to check and barely scraping by feeding their children and paying rent have more than enough extra income to pack away a few thousand bucks for a move.
LOL!
That strategy has worked out great for all the people in poverty in this country over the decades. Oooh, yeah...
Oh, and the further away you move from a job to get cheaper housing, the more you spend on transportation fuel to get to that job. Gee, transportation fuel has doubled in the last year, so greater commute distances don't work for people at the bottom of the income ladder at all. Hell, I'm not quite at the bottom though I do make substantially less than the average wage for this area and I now spend over 14% of my after tax/before mortgage income just on gasoline. Houses close to my job cost double what my house cost, or more. And yes, I'm getting ready for a job search because I've discovered recently that valued and experienced employees just aren't worth at least cost of living raises around here. Who knows, I may be going to Afghanistan this summer. At least if I can get that one I don't have to pay income taxes at all, hehehe...
JazzMan
[This message has been edited by JazzMan (edited 05-24-2006).]
I've lived paycheck to paycheck most all my life. I raised 4 kids by myself, so I know a bit about how hard things can be, but still was able to make moves to different locations even in different states, when the work died where I lived. People don't make those moves because they just don't want to. Personally, I've never had a problem getting a raise. Dunno what you are doing wrong, but next time check out your prospective employer extensively.
Odd isn't it? A Mexican family can walk from the Rio Grande to as far away as Chicago for a min wage job in America, but Americans generally prefer to stay where they are and beech and cry and moan about how bad they have it--all the while coveting what others have. I sometimes think they just enjoy having something to complain about. And have ya ever noticed? It's ALWAYS someone elses fault they don't have the $$ for a big house or bring home the big paycheck.--Always.
[This message has been edited by maryjane (edited 05-24-2006).]
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08:36 PM
jstricker Member
Posts: 12956 From: Russell, KS USA Registered: Apr 2002
If you've never read it, Jazzman, read "The Grapes of Wrath". People moved halfway across the country for work because they had to. Not because they wanted to. You have to do what you have to do. People do it all the time and the solution is NOT to sit back and complain about one's lot in life because that won't fix anything.
Social Security and Welfare, a small part of which is the Minimum Wage, was never intended to allow people to do what they want, when they want, where they want. It was to allow them to SURVIVE. The problem is, that's not enough anymore. I have a real problem waiting in the checkout line while someone ahead of me is paying for the groceries with foodstamps while talking on a cellphone. Does that happen all the time? Not around here. Have I seen it personally? Yes I have. I'm not saying because it's abused it should be abolished, just that it seems that those that cry the loudest will most likely be people like that, at least in my experience.
My wife works for the State in the Business office at a University. She hasn't had a raise, not even a COLA, for 3 years. This year they've announced that at the start of the new fiscal year the classified employess will get 3%. Do I think that's fair? No. But as I told her, if it really bothers her..........QUIT. Get another job. The pay isn't that great. ($2,400/mo before taxes) but the benefits aren't bad, not the least of which is health insurance (that we pay $320/mo our share for).
A lot of this in regards to minimum wage is academic anyway. I'd guess there is such a small percentage of people that are actually trying to support a family on minimum wage that it's not even a blip on the radar. Minimum wage is really applicable to people like HS students at fast food, convenience store clerks that are holding a second job, and other instances similar to that. They are unskilled and entry level jobs, not meant as careers, but something extra. All that said, I agree that if we're going to have a minimum wage it should to some extent reflect the cost of living. I still don't agree that the CPI is applicable here, but portions of it certainly are.
John Stricker
quote
Originally posted by JazzMan: I'm glad to see that you're willing and able to pickup all the relocation costs of a family that needs to move somewhere else to get a great paying job. After all, poor people living from check to check and barely scraping by feeding their children and paying rent have more than enough extra income to pack away a few thousand bucks for a move.
LOL!
That strategy has worked out great for all the people in poverty in this country over the decades. Oooh, yeah...
Oh, and the further away you move from a job to get cheaper housing, the more you spend on transportation fuel to get to that job. Gee, transportation fuel has doubled in the last year, so greater commute distances don't work for people at the bottom of the income ladder at all. Hell, I'm not quite at the bottom though I do make substantially less than the average wage for this area and I now spend over 14% of my after tax/before mortgage income just on gasoline. Houses close to my job cost double what my house cost, or more. And yes, I'm getting ready for a job search because I've discovered recently that valued and experienced employees just aren't worth at least cost of living raises around here. Who knows, I may be going to Afghanistan this summer. At least if I can get that one I don't have to pay income taxes at all, hehehe...
JazzMan
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09:01 PM
GDS-1 Member
Posts: 157 From: Tacoma,WA,USA Registered: Feb 2006
I've lived paycheck to paycheck most all my life. I raised 4 kids by myself, so I know a bit about how hard things can be, but still was able to make moves to different locations even in different states, when the work died where I lived.
Uhh...I invite you to Washington State. I don't think "just moving" is easy as it seems. But rather than making assumptions, let me ask you a few questions.
1. Are you still raising your kids?
2. How long ago since you've been making these moves? And to which states, or was it in another city.
3. When the work "died" in your area, how were you able to have money to move in the first place?
quote
People don't make those moves because they just don't want to.
You don't know that. That's QUITE presumptuous. And to me flame baiting as well.
quote
Personally, I've never had a problem getting a raise. Dunno what you are doing wrong, but next time check out your prospective employer extensively.
Wow.....
Once again, there may be factors of why he's not getting a raise. It COULD be him...or the people running his workplace are facing some hard times (you wouldn't believe how much the price of gas can affect EVERYTHING). Or his company could be tightwads. We don't know. But the arrogance I read is chilling...
Sorry I had to respond to that...
[This message has been edited by GDS-1 (edited 05-24-2006).]
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09:28 PM
jstricker Member
Posts: 12956 From: Russell, KS USA Registered: Apr 2002
I took Don's statement not as critical to Jazzman's abilities or work ethic, but that he currently works for an unappreciative at best, just plain sucky at worst, company and that if he makes a change to another employer to check them out carefully.
John Stricker
quote
Originally posted by GDS-1:
Wow.....
Once again, there may be factors of why he's not getting a raise. It COULD be him...or the people running his workplace are facing some hard times (you wouldn't believe how much the price of gas can affect EVERYTHING). Or his company could be tightwads. We don't know. But the arrogance I read is chilling...
Sorry I had to respond to that...
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09:35 PM
GDS-1 Member
Posts: 157 From: Tacoma,WA,USA Registered: Feb 2006
Look, the original question was "can someone live on minimum wage?". Yes, they can. Not everywhere.
Surely not here. And just to put things into perspective, the latest job listings I've seen in the Tacoma/Seattle area that requires a college degree wanted only $14-$18 an hour for an entry job. Even then, finding a decent house in a decent area is a bear.
The house I'm renting 10 years ago was about $80k...now it's worth $120k but it's only a 900 sq., small 3 bedrooms, 1 bath, and a ragged one car garage that majorly leaks. The rent I'm paying is $825 a month...and that's CHEAP.
Then top it off I lost my job that I was making 44k a year (and only thirteen miles away), ended up working at a job twice the distance for less pay (and only get a lunch hardly any breaks). Now, mind you, with the former job, we were MILDLY making it; I am the only one able to really work, my wife isn't really able to work an 8 hr job. Also, I worked my a$$ off working at one point 11-13 12 hour days straight.
Now....? I just thank God I can barely make it. And the job I have? Oh...$12-13 an hour. The wage I need (not want) in order to even come close to what I made last year? Take into consideration of having a regular 40 hour week ohhhh...
About $22.75 to $23.20 an hour.
Now tell me...if they have any production jobs that willing to pay that...tell me where. Mind you again...it wasn't like we bought anything extravagant, and in fact I was scratchin' some money to fix my car as it was.
Now tell me again how is it really possible to "survive" with even WA State's minimum wage and how it's easy to just MOVE.
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10:13 PM
jstricker Member
Posts: 12956 From: Russell, KS USA Registered: Apr 2002
Keep finding reasons why you can't do something and you'll succeed at not doing it.
A "decent" house in a "decent" area. Your terms. Nobody said anything is easy and life most definitely makes that happen, but all of your examples aren't really applicable to minimum wage. It's not set up to take care of a family of four. It's not set up to be able to buy a house. Again, you're telling me that nowhere in the Seattle area can I find an apartment, rooming house, or SOMETHING for less than $800? BS. $825/mo because you CHOOSE to live in a house, be it not the nicest house in Seattle. You DON'T have to. I don't know how old you are, but I lived in trailer houses until I was in my mid 20's. Now THAT'S luxury living! Point is, with the high rent and all your other expenses, you are "barely" making it on a regular 40 hour work week at $12/hour. Cut your rent in less than half by moving to an apartment with a room mate (not suggesting you do that, just run the numbers) and you would "barely" be able to make it at Washington state's minimum wage and after all, that IS the definition of "minimum".
Let's see...........
1 BR Studio apartment in the central district on busline newly remodeled, $425 Call Mike at 425-445-9755 $550, 1br, Spacious One Bedroom - Great Location Reserved parking, onsite laundry facilities, Near Shoreline and Edmonds Community Colleges, Costco, Transit Center 206-909-7077 We have an efficiency studio apartment renting for $400 per month available ASAP. The apartment is 220 square feet with a small kitchen and smaller bathroom.(NOT SHARED)STU $400 $300 Sec Dep 206 340-1150
See, places like this are around. Not the nicest, but not a cardboard box in the street either and these are the kinds of places that you're going to be looking at if you're a minimum wage earner. I found a LOT of decent 2 BR apartments in Seattle for $650 or so, which is $325/per person with a room mate.
I commend you for your work ethic. From May till October your schedule is normal for me. Most people hate it, that's why there are fewer people farming every year. But long hours and hard work do not make you unique, just responsible and concientious (both admirable qualities).
Nobody says it's easy. Nobody says they'd like it. Nobody wants to do it. But that wasn't the question. The question was, IS IT POSSIBLE?
John Stricker
quote
Originally posted by GDS-1:
Surely not here. And just to put things into perspective, the latest job listings I've seen in the Tacoma/Seattle area that requires a college degree wanted only $14-$18 an hour for an entry job. Even then, finding a decent house in a decent area is a bear.
The house I'm renting 10 years ago was about $80k...now it's worth $120k but it's only a 900 sq., small 3 bedrooms, 1 bath, and a ragged one car garage that majorly leaks. The rent I'm paying is $825 a month...and that's CHEAP.
Then top it off I lost my job that I was making 44k a year (and only thirteen miles away), ended up working at a job twice the distance for less pay (and only get a lunch hardly any breaks). Now, mind you, with the former job, we were MILDLY making it; I am the only one able to really work, my wife isn't really able to work an 8 hr job. Also, I worked my a$$ off working at one point 11-13 12 hour days straight.
Now....? I just thank God I can barely make it. And the job I have? Oh...$12-13 an hour. The wage I need (not want) in order to even come close to what I made last year? Take into consideration of having a regular 40 hour week ohhhh...
About $22.75 to $23.20 an hour.
Now tell me...if they have any production jobs that willing to pay that...tell me where. Mind you again...it wasn't like we bought anything extravagant, and in fact I was scratchin' some money to fix my car as it was.
Now tell me again how is it really possible to "survive" with even WA State's minimum wage and how it's easy to just MOVE.
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10:59 PM
GDS-1 Member
Posts: 157 From: Tacoma,WA,USA Registered: Feb 2006
A "decent" house in a "decent" area. Your terms. Nobody said anything is easy and life most definitely makes that happen, but all of your examples aren't really applicable to minimum wage. It's not set up to take care of a family of four. It's not set up to be able to buy a house. Again, you're telling me that nowhere in the Seattle area can I find an apartment, rooming house, or SOMETHING for less than $800? BS. $825/mo because you CHOOSE to live in a house, be it not the nicest house in Seattle. You DON'T have to. I don't know how old you are, but I lived in trailer houses until I was in my mid 20's. Now THAT'S luxury living! Point is, with the high rent and all your other expenses, you are "barely" making it on a regular 40 hour work week at $12/hour. Cut your rent in less than half by moving to an apartment with a room mate (not suggesting you do that, just run the numbers) and you would "barely" be able to make it at Washington state's minimum wage and after all, that IS the definition of "minimum".
1. I live in Tacoma, and not Seattle. 2. I said I was married...and I have two kids to care for. 3. I got this house a year ago for one, after living in eight years + in apartments...and if you have been living in apartments recently would you even put up with the unnecessary bs from the hoodrats?
quote
I don't know how old you are, but I lived in trailer houses until I was in my mid 20's.
Uhhh....I'm 32, and in my early 20's I was homeless. That being said, you don't live in the area, so you don't know what goes on in my area.
Do you realize how bad you sound? Now, I had a chance to make some easy money when I was 20 by slangin rock, and had the guy come to my crib at the time but I backed out.
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11:26 PM
PFF
System Bot
GDS-1 Member
Posts: 157 From: Tacoma,WA,USA Registered: Feb 2006
Let me add this...and forgive me, for this thought came to me just now...
I'm reacting the way I am because I'm going though this NOW as to when you were XXX years ago. Factor in the cost of living was LOWER than as it is now, your example is null and void.
I'm also acting this way because I know alot of posters who would love to do their Fieros like some of the others in the board but can't because they're trying to get their grind on just like me to take care of their families. When I made a thread "For the po' fans" I had some pms thanking me for it.
How this relates to this thread?
Simple...I empathize. To say what maryjane and you say with a hint of...detachment...well.
Well, that's all I have to say on this...I'll be reading.
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11:49 PM
May 25th, 2006
jstricker Member
Posts: 12956 From: Russell, KS USA Registered: Apr 2002
Please don't just read, contribute. I'm not sure where you get that there is no empathy. It's just that you're taking this a direction that the original poster wasn't talking about.
I mean no insult to you in fact, just the opposite. I respect you for taking a job that doesn't pay what you really need and, in fact, are probably overqualified for. That sucks. BTDT.
In your previous posts you said "Tacoma/Seattle area" so that's what I looked for. I already agreed with you that living in the kind of places you would have to if you made minimum wage would suck and not be what anyone would WANT to do. I understand you have a family. I also understand you don't make minimum wage. If you did, you couldn't care for them.
All that said, that's not the question. Go back to the first post. The original poster said
quote
Now this is my proposed goal lets come up with a list.................of logical amount for one to live upon
That's what I'm talking about. Not feeding a family of four. Not living in a house (rented or purchasing), but a logical amount for one to live on. Survive on.
So let's talk survival.
Do you need Internet to survive? Nope. If you need it for job search, etc., there are ways to get it. Ask Jazzman, it's what he's doing. Do you need cable TV? Nope. You might WANT it, but you don't NEED it. For that matter, do you need a TV at all? (remember, we're talking survival here)
What you NEED is some type of transportation to get you to and from work. You NEED 2,000 calories a day with enough vitamins and minerals to sustain life. You NEED clean water (available distilled from the grocery store for less than $1/gallon). You NEED clothing to protect you from the elements. You NEED shelter to do the same thing (and the expenses like utilities that go with it).
That's what minimum wage is all about. To keep one person from starving/freezing/and going homeless. In most areas of the country, it CAN do that, once people realize the difference between NEEDS and WANTS. Maybe not everywhere, but most places.
Don't be offended by this, I'm not directing it at you. The question wasn't whether GDS-1 can support a family of four in a rented house on a 40 hour/week minimum wage job. You can't. But that's not what minimum wage is all about anyway.
I truly am consistently amazed that people (not saying you're doing this because you haven't said one way or the other) dismiss the idea of MOVING to better their life if they simply can't make it where they are. I've lived within 1 mile of where I am right now my entire life (except when I was at school). I'm the third generation farming this land. People talk about not wanting (or being able) to leave their roots, family, friends. Heck, most of the people I know here I've known for nearly my entire life. I'd guess there are few people that have "roots" much deeper than I have where I live.
If it was a matter of moving to live a decent life, if I couldn't survive here (ala the Great Depression and Dust Bowl years of the '30's) would I leave?
In a heartbeat. I'd sell what I had to in order to get enough money to make the trip, formulate a plan, and get the hell out of Dodge.
Home isn't a place, it's a state of mind and as others have pointed out, you have to do what you have to do.
John Stricker
quote
Originally posted by GDS-1:
Let me add this...and forgive me, for this thought came to me just now...
I'm reacting the way I am because I'm going though this NOW as to when you were XXX years ago. Factor in the cost of living was LOWER than as it is now, your example is null and void.
I'm also acting this way because I know alot of posters who would love to do their Fieros like some of the others in the board but can't because they're trying to get their grind on just like me to take care of their families. When I made a thread "For the po' fans" I had some pms thanking me for it.
How this relates to this thread?
Simple...I empathize. To say what maryjane and you say with a hint of...detachment...well.
Well, that's all I have to say on this...I'll be reading.
Once again, there may be factors of why he's not getting a raise. It COULD be him...or the people running his workplace are facing some hard times (you wouldn't believe how much the price of gas can affect EVERYTHING). Or his company could be tightwads. We don't know. But the arrogance I read is chilling...
Sorry I had to respond to that...
No arrogance. The voice of experience. This complaining about not having enough income to cover expenses has been going on for quite some time. I've made 5 of these moves in the last 20 years. All but the last one, I had 4 kids with me-no wife. On the last one, I had one dependant. Jazzman is single-no dependants. And, it makes no difference whose fault it is as far as his income vs expenses goes. His fault-his employer's fault-nobody's fault-or everybody's fault. The results are the same. The fact is, he's been cutting his expenses to the bone for months and it evidently isn't working well enough to get him where he wants to be. I have no idea how much $/hr he makes where he is, other than a post he made saying something like "I don't make as much money as a lot of people may think". But, I'll bet it is close to or more than what I've been making up till last Fri when I quit my job for yet another 400 mile move. I don't make a lot of money either. The difference between Jazz and myself, is that I live 300+ miles from DFW. My total living expenses, during hot weather and 24 hr/day ac use, is less than $1500 mo. That includes health care ins, life ins, car ins(on 2 cars), rent, renter's ins, food, non-food neccessities, clothing, gas, utilities, internet, phone, and meager amts of entertaiment-usually Fiero related. I do have assets outside my job income, but they are a no-no to touch. I live solely within whatever my paycheck allows me to. I live in a very nice apt, right next to the mall, within sight of Walmart Super center, Lowes and Orielly's auto parts. It is less than 15 minutes to or from work each day. (I can be anywhere in San Angelo in 15-20 minutes tops) I always have a bit left over to put into savings-not much-but a bit.
(now, I've read ahead in the posting, so I already know GDS-1, that you make a bit more than I do. About 15% more.(or did-I'm unemployed right now The job I just quit is what I'm speaking of.) Again, the difference is where I live--so cheaply live.
When a person or family can't make it comfortably or at all where they are--on the income they are stuck with-there are only 3 options!! This holds true for everyone--and for all locations. 1. Give up. Not likely in Jazz's case-he doesn't strike me as the type. 2. Increase the income available to you where you are now living. a. Take a 2nd job-on your way home route from your primary job. A few hrs per night. Anything will do. Don't be picky. b. Take a weekend job to supplement your income from the primary job. c. Both the above. (I've done this before temporarily-out of neccessity, but it is a killer. 3. Move to an area where wages or higher-or costs of living is lower. Both would be preferable, but not neccessary. Ok-4 options I guess since he is single. 4. Marry rich/win the lottery. (good luck with that everyone)
In Jazzman's case, #3 makes the most sense. He has chosen to work in Afghanistan, which is open to him, but not always an option to people with dependants if they are a single parent family.
quote
Uhh...I invite you to Washington State. I don't think "just moving" is easy as it seems. But rather than making assumptions, let me ask you a few questions.
Actually it is just that easy-but you do have to plan for it a few months in advance--and sacrifice some. The object is not to hold onto everything presently in your location/situation and what you move to. The object is to get out of the current situation and get into a better one. But back up a minute. You'd invite me to Wash State? Thanks but no thanks. I've already read how expensive it is to live there. Why would I possibly choose to move there? Visit? Maybe. Move? Never. Too expensive--too far.
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1. Are you still raising your kids?
No, but I was on the first 4 of these relocations.
quote
2. How long ago since you've been making these moves? And to which states, or was it in another city.
See below.
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3. When the work "died" in your area, how were you able to have money to move in the first place?
Mostly interstate moves. Not going to type them all out, but some of them were: 1985-Lafayette La to Memphis Tenn. Dunno what the mileage was. The oilfield had gone bust, and my job with it. $105/wk unemployemnt compensation. I had 4 kids that had worried looks in their eyes. Mine too. Made some calls around to relatives and Memphis looked promising. Did odd jobs, sold scrap iron gleaned from machine shop scraps etc and started a move fund. Finally found another POS job cleaning acid tanks. (My daugter was old enough to babysit her brothers, so thankfully I didn't have to pay a baby sitter, so I didn't have to work 3 jobs that time. One of my relatives from Memphis sent me the want ads from the Memphis paper, and I sent a resume to WW Williams, a Kamatsu heavy equipment dealer. Response came back a week later-said they needed me 'yesterday'. "When could I be there?" Made arrangements for a realtor to put my house on the market, packed it up, and put it all in storage for $25/mo. Loaded my tools, the kids, and our neccessities such as clothes and such in my double cab and in 48 hrs I was working for WWW as a diesel mechanic. Went back to La later with a Uhaul and hauled all my stuff to Memphis. Piece of cake, and I did that on short notice.
1988-Memphis to New Iberia La. WWW got bought out and I was going to be out of a job in 3 weeks. By this time, the oil filed was booming again a bit, and I had recieved word one of my old bosses was looking for me and my brother. My brother declined, but I scrimped along for 3 weeks, worked all the OT I could, paying off my bills in Memphis and back down to La we went.
1995-New Iberia La to San Angelo Texas. about 650 miles if I remember right. 1 dependant-Jane-came with me. My good, long term job had crapped out, and I had taken one dispatching. Now, this move was not an absolute neccessity. I could have made it just so so or ok in La, since the economy had turned upward in 1995 or even just moved to Houston, which would have been much less mileage, but I had chosen San Angelo specifically, after researching the place. Lots of job opportunities, low humidity, clean air, and very low cost of living. 3 lakes nearby was a plus. To financially make the move, I did the 3 jobs at one time thing for 3 months. 1 piece of crap full time dispatching job at a low rate of pay and zero benefits-a part time night job 4nights/ wk-and worked weekends for a lawn/landscape service. Scrimped and saved every penny. Sold an old pickup I had and kept the 'good car'-a 1974 Pontiac Ventura-my baby. Spent $200 bucks to purchase a piece of crap mobile home, fixed it up and sold it for $900 a month later. Sold off everything 'Lousiana related' and put that into the move fund. I had already registered with a temp service in San Angelo via snail mail, and sent my resumes. I had a job offer, so one Friday, we rented a 22' uhaul, loaded it up, and took off-pulling the Ventura behind. I had about $2000 bucks of 'move money' to get it done with. About $800 for the uhaul & gas. $200 for an apt deposit, and rented the cheapest apt I could find in San Angelo. $350/mo + utilities. $100 utility deposit. By monday morning we were set up, moved in, they turned the lights on, we went to the grocery store, and then Jane went off in search of job. She had one in 2 hrs. Mine started the next week. Machinist job. I hadn't done much machining, but learned quick. I worked there 3 yrs till the old guy that owned the place decided to sell out and retire, so I found another job here-the job I stayed at for 7 yrs till last Friday.
This Friday, I will pick up a uhaul, and load up our life and by Monday, Jane and I will be living in East Texas. This one was easy. Planned for it waaay in advance. Well, if you call since last December waaay in advance.
A family can do it--I did with mine 4 times. A couple can do it--Jane & I did. A single person can certainly do it.
[This message has been edited by maryjane (edited 05-25-2006).]
Let me add this...and forgive me, for this thought came to me just now...
I'm reacting the way I am because I'm going though this NOW as to when you were XXX years ago. Factor in the cost of living was LOWER than as it is now, your example is null and void.
I'm also acting this way because I know alot of posters who would love to do their Fieros like some of the others in the board but can't because they're trying to get their grind on just like me to take care of their families. When I made a thread "For the po' fans" I had some pms thanking me for it.
How this relates to this thread?
Simple...I empathize. To say what maryjane and you say with a hint of...detachment...well.
Well, that's all I have to say on this...I'll be reading.
His actions of xxx yrs ago do not nullify his example. It highlights exactly what is being discussed. People are living in high COLA areas that, well basically, they just can't afford to live in. There's no way around that. Why are they doing it? People have to live within their means. It was true 30 yrs ago, it's true today, and it will be true for the next 100 yrs and beyond. People have got to quit coveting what other people have and concentrate their energies on their own lives and capabilities. I really find these sorts of things absolutely amazing. A couple of years ago, there was a heated discussion here in OT, in a thread started by a young man living in the NE part of the US. His complaint was that appraised property values where he lived had risen so high, that he couldn't afford to buy a home. Added to that, the young man was just out of college. Of course he couldn't afford to buy a $250,000 home. Pretty much, his view was, that either the owners should lower their selling price to match his wages, or his employer should raise his wages to match the property values. That is not ever ever ever going to happen. The 2 are not interlinked in any way. It was suggested he move by more than just a couple of people and his reply was "why should I have to move from my home town to be able to afford a home?" To this day, he is still waiting for property values to fall to within his earnings structure. It's going to be a very very very long wait unless he can find a way to increase his earning power.
Is there a chance in hades that Lambroghini is going to lower thier prices just so I can buy one? Not likely. Ya know, I'd love to have a Fiero like Jstricker's gold one. Ain't gonna happen. I can't afford it-but the difference is, I know I can't afford it and move down to what I can afford. I'm good with that. Really.
[This message has been edited by maryjane (edited 05-25-2006).]
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02:16 AM
GDS-1 Member
Posts: 157 From: Tacoma,WA,USA Registered: Feb 2006
Uhhh...got a question. Doesn't Texas have a lower cost of living? And add the fact the moves was over 20 years, the cost of living overall was lower? Just wondering.
And I forgot to add, the Tacoma/Seattle/Everett area (don't think its all together, it's actually spread over 3 counties and a few hundred miles) are listed in the top 10 in the highest paid areas in the NATION. So in effect, things cost more here than in Texas. And it's been getting even more expensive; while the real estate might be on "the bubble" in the nation in general, it's still blowing up HERE. Big time.
As for Jazzman, who's single... you've got a hell of a lot more choices. In fact I had to learn that when I was homeless. And Clubbin' every once in a while is cool, but money spent on alcohol (and even cigarettes) can zap your budget.
My suggestion to him is do a butally honest reflection on what he's doing, his attitude, the whole lot. 'Cause in this world, in the end it's only you.
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07:42 AM
jstricker Member
Posts: 12956 From: Russell, KS USA Registered: Apr 2002
Some areas of TX are cheaper. The DFW area for housing is exploding in price but rural TX, from what I've read, is still pretty reasonable. Go back to my list of NEEDS. I'm sure a lot of things are more expensive in the Seattle/Tacoma area, but I'll bet a lot of them are the same, or even less. You have a Wal Mart there, right? Those prices are reasonably standard in their stores throughout the country. (Not identical, but close). How long/far is a Wal Mart from your house? I have to drive 75 miles round trip to get to mine (if I shopped there, the bastadges). Figure 33 cents a mile and that's $25 and 2+ hours added to every Wal Mart visit. A lot of the NEEDS in Seattle are going to be close to the same price. Food. Clothing. Utilities. Sure, there will be variation, some cheaper, some higher, but on average, I'll bet the actual NEEDS are pretty darn close.
I'd be interested in comparing them, if you have the time and would like to, because this stuff interests me in the real world and it is, after all, what the original poster was asking. How much does it cost to live where people live. I suggest we come up with a standardized shopping list. Let's leave housing out of it for the time being because that seems to be a highly variable item.
I'll start with a suggested list for the grocery store and we can add to it.
Cambells tomato soup, 1 can Sugar, whatever size is convenient, but figure it per pound Milk, 1 gallon Eggs, 1 dozen Hamburger, per pound Chicken, per pound Pork Chops, per pound Breakfast cereal, what the heck, I like Tony Tiger so Frosted Flakes Paper Towels, Bounty, per roll Dishwashing soap, Dawn (list how many oz) Juice, whatever size, per oz Coffee, per pound Coke, 2 liter bottles
Toilet Paper. Shampoo. Conditioner. Bath soap. Jeans, 1 pr, adult, no name brand or designer, just something like JC Penneys T shirt Sneakers, 1 pr, adult, again, no Nike or whatever, just some cheap shoes
If you have things to add that's great, let's add them. I was trying to come up with a wide cross section of items people need and use every day and I know I forgot some stuff. We can add utilities if you like as well, that stuff I have already broken down and am able to come up with at the click of a mouse.
Things like Gas and Car insurance, tolls in some areas are a big deal (try and not include them in your budget if you live in Tulsa). This is a Fiero forum, so we can figure insurance on a Fiero and price of gas per gallon. This could be very interesting before all is said and done. I'll wait a day or so for other suggested items for the shopping list and I'll get prices here when I do my pre-memorial day grocery shopping.
(We have a BBQ with a few neighbors and family every year on memorial day evening and I do the cooking and shopping for that........)
You keep bringing up that because things happened 20 years ago it doesn't apply. Dare I ask why you think that? Were things cheaper? Sure. When I was in college though, I was making $2.50/hr or so. The pay was substantially less back then. The ratio is still similar. I don't see how you can think it was a lot easier for Don to move with his kids back then than it would be if he still had them now. Seems like it would be the same to me. But you do have to plan for it. You can't just wake up tomorrow living in Tacoma and say "I'm going to move to TX where there are jobs and lower living costs. Honey, load up the car!". It might take 6 months to a year of working 3 jobs to save enough for the move. Yes, it would suck. BTDT. But because it sucks doesn't make it impossible.
John Stricker
PS:
I'm reasonably familiar with the Seattle/Tacoma area. It's actually an area along Puget Sound that's about 60 miles by 15 miles so while it's about 900 square miles I wouldn't say that it's "it's actually spread over 3 counties and a few hundred miles". It covers a few hundred square miles, if that's what you meant, but when I read what you wrote I took it to mean it was spread along a coastline of a few hundred miles. I had an uncle that lived in the Kent area for about 20 years and still have 3 cousins there.
quote
Originally posted by GDS-1:
Uhhh...got a question. Doesn't Texas have a lower cost of living? And add the fact the moves was over 20 years, the cost of living overall was lower? Just wondering.
And I forgot to add, the Tacoma/Seattle/Everett area (don't think its all together, it's actually spread over 3 counties and a few hundred miles) are listed in the top 10 in the highest paid areas in the NATION. So in effect, things cost more here than in Texas. And it's been getting even more expensive; while the real estate might be on "the bubble" in the nation in general, it's still blowing up HERE. Big time.
As for Jazzman, who's single... you've got a hell of a lot more choices. In fact I had to learn that when I was homeless. And Clubbin' every once in a while is cool, but money spent on alcohol (and even cigarettes) can zap your budget.
My suggestion to him is do a butally honest reflection on what he's doing, his attitude, the whole lot. 'Cause in this world, in the end it's only you.
[This message has been edited by jstricker (edited 05-25-2006).]
I don't think Jazzman does much of the clubbing thing. I forget which area of interest he's involved in, besides Fieros, but it's more academic/literary (sp) in nature. He's really a very intelligent, very soft spoken, and very articulate guy in person.
Making a big move is scary. And, not all that easy, but not all that difficullt either, once you get past the scary part. With today's internet, it's a lot easier to have your ducks in a row at your new location, before you pack the 1st box.
11 years ago, Jane got tired of living in the cold and snow of Illinois, tired of being sick every winter, did some research via snail mail, picked out Midland Texas, packed everything she had, rented a uhaul, had <$500 bucks to her name when she got there, and made the move alone, pulling her car behind the uhaul. Midland was booming at the time, so she had a job almost as soon as she arrived. Not much of a job, but it got her into an apt with a girl that needed a room mate. She put most of her un-needed stuff into storage till she got a better job and her own apt. Even then, she left most of it in storage-no room. I met her not too long after that, and after we made the move from La to San Angelo, we ran up to Midland to retrieve the stuff I had been paying storage on for several years. What we pulled out of that storage unit was mostly crap I would never had bothered packing. She threw most of it in the dumpster at the storage place. She would have been better off selling it all at a yard sale before she left Illinois and having the cash. Moral-travel as light as possible. Most of us have lots of crap we just don't need.
Like I said--it's scary. You have to be careful to pick out a place that has long term job stability, job growth potential, and an economy not based on just one segment of the economy. (That was my problem with S.La. Almost everything down there was oilfield related-paid great when a boom was on, but you just never knew how long it would last. Volatile as the blazes.) I made a ton of $ down there in the 18 yrs, and liked the region, but when I left it I swore I would never return to the oilfield.
One of the reasons people tend not to move is because they mistakingly believe the problems they are having reflect on themselves in the form of some sort of personal failure. That's total BS. Don't do it. As individuals, we usually don't have control over the wage scale of an area, job availablity, promotion rates, cost of housing etc. People tend to look around themselves see others doing well, and say-"They're doing ok here-why am I having problems?" Because we aren't them. It's that simple. We can't live our lives coveting what others have; we have to concentrate on what we are capable of and work within those parameters. What we do have control over is whether we choose to remain in an area where we are having the problems.
[This message has been edited by maryjane (edited 05-25-2006).]
I'll start with a suggested list for the grocery store and we can add to it.
Cambells tomato soup, 1 can Sugar, whatever size is convenient, but figure it per pound Milk, 1 gallon Eggs, 1 dozen Hamburger, per pound Chicken, per pound Pork Chops, per pound Breakfast cereal, what the heck, I like Tony Tiger so Frosted Flakes Paper Towels, Bounty, per roll Dishwashing soap, Dawn (list how many oz) Juice, whatever size, per oz Coffee, per pound Coke, 2 liter bottles
Jeans, 1 pr, adult, no name brand or designer, just something like JC Penneys T shirt Sneakers, 1 pr, adult, again, no Nike or whatever, just some cheap shoes
If you have things to add that's great, let's add them. I was trying to come up with a wide cross section of items people need and use every day and I know I forgot some stuff. We can add utilities if you like as well, that stuff I have already broken down and am able to come up with at the click of a mouse.
Evidently the click of a male mouse. You'll never get away from a store with that list--you left off: Toilet Paper. Shampoo. Conditioner. Bath soap.
I take it you are suggesting we apply our local prices to these items? I'll see if I can come up with some here. Store brand or name brand? Or whatever we usually buy?
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11:06 AM
Scott-Wa Member
Posts: 5392 From: Tacoma, WA, USA Registered: Mar 2002
I'll say it again, although many of you think it cold, if you can't afford to buy a home or LIVE somewhere, move somewhere cheaper. Minimum wage is NOT set up, and has never been set up, to allow people to make enough money to do what they want when they want where they want. To obtain THAT standard of living they need to have skills that are worth substantially more than minimum wage.
Only problem with this though is that once your in that condition of not being able to afford to live somewhere, you have no money to move elsewhere. Your in survivial mode and moving somewhere with no known prospects of making a living using the last of any remaining resources generally isn't a viable option until your homeless and have nothing left to lose. Since the move will mean losing anything you do have left, it is a desperation decision. So you move somewhere cheaper to live, and in the process lose any contacts you had, your stuff, your job, your housing... but it is part of the american dream, go somewhere else and start over. But if you now have bad credit, you can't get housing because they won't rent to you, you can't get a job because your a statistical risk for theft or security.
It's not as simple as it sounds. Katrina being as horrible of an event as it was for those in the poor areas hit, may have helped some break a poverty cycle by moving them out into a new communities as you suggest, but by being victims of the one event, they suddenly became eligible for support from agencies that just ignored them for generations. So people that wouldn't qualify to get into an apartment if they'd left town themselves, now got FEMA or other agencies to place them into apartments or housing of some sort. Being victims of a flood, they had people willing to give them jobs that wouldn't have given them the time of day if they'd just shown up at any other time because they didn't have a work history, look professional enough etc...
So you move somewhere cheaper to live, and in the process lose any contacts you had, your stuff, your job, your housing
That's the whole point of moving. You want to leave behind the housing that you can't afford, the job that isn't paying enough, and the higher cost of living. Personal contacts can be kept up nowdays easier than ever. Stuff can be replaced.
Bad credit--dunno what that is, as I have always had a rule not to incur any debt-other than a mortage. If I can't afford to buy it outright--I certainly can't afford it and interest too. I do know what zero credit is, but it has never stopped me from getting into an apt rental.
We, as Americans have come to the point that we think we are too good to do these things, that we are above taking risks, starting over etc. Yet, we see immigrants (legal and illegal) do it every day. Come here with nothing, and succeed. With and without their families. They aren't afraid of it, don't have the social stigmas we attach to ourselves. The place I worked is full of these folks-good hardworking honest people. Start with nothing, living in the cheapest places in town, get on as a temp and worked their way up. For all intents and purposes, except for the color of my skin-I did about the same thing. Not once, but several times.
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12:36 PM
PFF
System Bot
fierobear Member
Posts: 27079 From: Safe in the Carolinas Registered: Aug 2000
Originally posted by Tinton: And oh yeah, even though I make twice minimum wage, I still think I'd be considered "poor". Working full time I'd make about $21,000 a year. As for working 2 jobs, no wonder men die earlier than women, we're getting worked to death! I shouldn't have to be a slave struggling with 2 jobs to make $40,000 a year while some CEO makes millions a year playing golf. But then again, that's the republican way isn't it? "You're too weak to become a CEO fatcat yourself? Too bad, get back to slaving away". I'm all for smaller government, but the playing field HAS to be evened out. Not everyone gets the same opportunities for success.
Originally posted by Tinton: And oh yeah, even though I make twice minimum wage, I still think I'd be considered "poor". Working full time I'd make about $21,000 a year. As for working 2 jobs, no wonder men die earlier than women, we're getting worked to death! I shouldn't have to be a slave struggling with 2 jobs to make $40,000 a year while some CEO makes millions a year playing golf. But then again, that's the republican way isn't it? "You're too weak to become a CEO fatcat yourself? Too bad, get back to slaving away". I'm all for smaller government, but the playing field HAS to be evened out. Not everyone gets the same opportunities for success.
This is what I'm talking about. "Shouldn't" has nothing to do with it. You're coveting what the CEO has-or a part of it. It's our choice to make the changes in our life to do what makes us successful, or we can sit about complaining how it isn't fair. (Successful being a relative term) Which choice do you think is really workable and which do you think will just leave you right where you are?
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01:05 PM
jstricker Member
Posts: 12956 From: Russell, KS USA Registered: Apr 2002
Yes, exactly. Check local prices and we'll compare.
I'm betting that on things like this there isn't a 10% variation from one area of the US to another. Housing will be a big variable, and energy costs will be too, but not things from the grocery store and clothing, if you don't have to have designer labels in them.
I added your items to the list. I knew the list was incomplete, by a long shot, but was trying to get a wide range of items for comparison purposes. Health care costs aren't included in there either, but about the only regular item for that would be a simple office call or vision/dental checkup. Everything else will just be too specific to an individual condition to have a meaningful comparison.
John Stricker
quote
Originally posted by maryjane:
Evidently the click of a male mouse. You'll never get away from a store with that list--you left off: Toilet Paper. Shampoo. Conditioner. Bath soap.
I take it you are suggesting we apply our local prices to these items? I'll see if I can come up with some here. Store brand or name brand? Or whatever we usually buy?
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03:59 PM
jstricker Member
Posts: 12956 From: Russell, KS USA Registered: Apr 2002
I'll update this list when I get in the house this evening, but we just got a bunch of sale flyers in the mail so I started taking notes. Yes, they are sale prices. So what? The sale price for Coke, for example, is $1.33/bottle and to be honest, that's not even a deal. We can often find it for $1.10. As far as I'm concerned, if you DON'T use the sale prices, you're a pretty stupid shopper.
OK, back in the house now with some receipts in front of me
Cambells tomato soup, 1 can 3 cans for $1.59 = 53 cent per can Sugar, whatever size is convenient, but figure it per pound 4 lb bag $2.09 = 52 cents/lb Milk, 1 gallon $3.95 Eggs, 1 dozen 2 doz for $3.75 = $1.87/doz Hamburger, per pound $1.99/lb, Chicken, per pound Chicken Breasts, $4.49/lb, buy one, get one free = $2.25/lb, whole chicken, $1.19/lb Pork Chops, per pound $2.19/lb Breakfast cereal, what the heck, I like Tony Tiger so Frosted Flakes 2 for $5, or $2.50 ea for 25 oz = 10 cents/oz Paper Towels, Bounty, per roll 8 rolls, Sparkle Brand, $5.49/8= 69 cents per roll) Dishwashing soap, Dawn (list how many oz) Cascade, 75 oz for $3.59 = 4.79 cents/oz, Dawn at Dollar General, $1.09 Juice, whatever size, per oz Minute Maid Orange Juice, 64 oz containers, 2 for $4, or $2 ea, or 3.125 cents/oz Coffee, per pound $4.19/lb Folgers Coke, 2 liter bottles Coke or Pepsi, 3 for $4 = $1.33/bottle Potatos 79 cents/lb Toilet Paper. $5.79 12 rolls = 48 cents/roll Shampoo. VO5, 15 oz 77 cents or 5.13 cents/oz Conditioner. VO5, 15 oz 77 cents or 5.13 cents/oz Bath soap. Ivory 12 bars for $5.29 = 44 cents/bar Jeans, 1 pr, adult, no name brand or designer, just something like JC Penneys USA Work Jeans, $7.95/pr T shirt Haynes or Henleys, pocket T's, $6.99 I know these are high, but all I get is pocket t's Sneakers, 1 pr, adult, again, no Nike or whatever, just some cheap shoes $8-$11 per pair, Alco/Duckwalls
John Stricker
[This message has been edited by jstricker (edited 05-25-2006).]
These are pretty much regular prices John, from a sales receipt 3 weeks old and from Jane's memory (which is considerably older for any transgression I've ever commited) Our shopping is done at a regional chain store called H.E.B. for edibles and at Walmart Supercenter for non food stuff. A couple items, like juice, I never buy, so I took them from an Albertson's sale paper. I never shop there myself. Cambells tomato soup, 1 can 71 cents Sugar, whatever size is convenient, but figure it per pound 22 cents/lb (4 lb bag) Milk, 1 gallon $3.98 Eggs, 1 dozen 88cents xtra large Hamburger, per pound $1.40/lb (reg grind-purchased in a 10 lb chub) Chicken, whole per pound 49 cents/lb Pork Chops, per pound 98 cents/lb cello pak-assorted cut Breakfast cereal, what the heck, I like Raisin Bran-store brand, 32 oz bag $2.86 Paper Towels, Bounty, per roll $1.18 (not Bounty-HEB store brand) Dishwashing soap, Dawn (12.6 oz $2.29) 18 cents/oz Juice, Apple, per oz 2 cents/oz (three 64 oz bottles for $4) Coffee, per pound $2.85/lb Coke, 2 liter bottles $1.99
Toilet Paper. $5.50 for 12 rolls 46 cents/roll (that's how we buy it-dunno where it goes to) Shampoo. 15 oz Suave $,88 5.9 cents/oz Conditioner. 25.4 oz Garnier brand $5.40!! 22 cents/oz We gonna talk about this!! Good Gawd! Bath soap. Zest 8 bars for $5.55= 69 cents/ bar Jeans, 1 pr, adult, Rustler $12.50 T shirt Fruit of the loom-$3.98 ea Sneakers, 1 pr, adult, again, no Nike or whatever, just some cheap shoes $10 Corona twelve 12 oz bottles $13 or $1.08/bottle
[This message has been edited by maryjane (edited 05-25-2006).]
IP: Logged
05:53 PM
GDS-1 Member
Posts: 157 From: Tacoma,WA,USA Registered: Feb 2006
ok, if you guys are so adamant in your views, time to put your money where your mouth is:
Make up your list...and live off of it for SIX months.
P.S. To be honest when my wife saw this thread and she got hot! Matter of fact here she is: I don't see how anyone can say that they can live off minimum wage and support a family of 4, with no help from the state, family, friends, etc..... By no means are we living extravagantly....matter of fact most of the time we spend less on certain things than even the State says is minimum. Example: I spend typically $200 a month on groceries to feed 2 adults and 2 growing boys, yet the State of Washington says the amount a family of 4 should be using for groceries each month is $476. Thes apts that were listed earlier in the thread...just because as ad sounds nice, doesn't mean it is. If you aren't from here or hell even from Seattle, you have no clue what things go for or what condition thigns are in. Ever hear of deceptive advertising? One of the ads that was posted was for a studio apt including kitchen and bathroom, it was 200 square feet. Now I don't know about you but I can't see raising my family in 200 sq ft. That is about the size of my living room. The 800 sq ft apartment we used to live in, surrounded by druggies, shootings, cop calls and the likes now rents for almost $600 a month, no amenities. YOu see it as work ethic, I see it as doing what is necessary to provide for family. Yes, my husband has a decent job and we live alright but that's it. He drives 58 miles day so we can live "alright". And honestly, it wasn't really a choice...I mean yeah, he could have chose not to take the job and we could try to live off the system but really, that just isn't an option either one of us wanted to take. I provide childcare right now to help make ends meet as well as do occasional work for my dad's maintenance business. Even then, things are tight and not always by choice. My kids go without alot, and I am not talking toys and candy...I'm talking waiting to get that new pair of shoes, walking around in old jeans because we just can't get new ones right now..... I'll break it down for you...minimum wage aftrer taxes for a month would be $1074.30, providing you work 40 hours. Let's use the ratty apt we used to live in as example: $600 for rent leaves 474.30. Average $70 for electricity leaves 404.30. Then you have the the $150 a month for laundry since the apts have no w/d for free, that leave 254.30. Basic phone is about $30 so that's 224.30. Basic cable just to have some sort of picture is another $30 so that leaves 194.30. Let's figure $20 a week for gas as the bus doesn't run early enough for my husband to take it to work so that's 114.30 left. Now, let's go get those $200 worth of groceries for the month and I am now in the hole 85.70. I haven't paid car insurance, bought toiletries or put gas in my car.
I may have missed it, but I don't remember anyone saying Min Wage would support a family of 4 for a month. Not sure about anywhere else, but in Texas, a person on min wage, with kids in school would qualify for food stamps. This is exactly what this program was enacted for.
