WASHINGTON - President Bush is expected to announce plans Monday to send thousands of National Guard troops to the U.S.-Mexico border to help stop illegal immigration.

Details were still under discussion at the White House Friday evening, but administration officials said Bush was considering deploying at least several thousand troops as part of a broader effort to beef up border security. The president will outline his plans on Monday night in a prime time TV address to the nation.

Should have been done a long time ago. But I'm sure the leftist are going to cry foul and call it a human rights abuse.

Source?

quote Originally posted by Hank is Here: Source?

http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/news/politics/14567973.htm
Pretty much on all the news sites. Prez is expected to announce it on a nationally televised speech next Monday night.

http://utterlyboring.com/images/1weekendamonth.jpg

Sort of like locking the barn door after the ponys has left but at least its a start. With a lot of luck maybe they'll all come back someday.

quote Originally posted by maryjane: http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/news/politics/14567973.htm Pretty much on all the news sites. Prez is expected to announce it on a nationally televised speech next Monday night.

Thanks for posting the source I had not heard anything about this before. It is always nice to know from where info comes. All I'll say is this can't come soon enough.

Do you suppose they will still inform the Mexicans where our troops WON'T be?

should have been done a long time ago. i dont mind latinos being here, but they need to go through legal channels, have all the papers and health checks, pay taxes. next we need to shut down the people who employ illegals.

quote Originally posted by lurker: should have been done a long time ago. i dont mind latinos being here, but they need to go through legal channels, have all the papers and health checks, pay taxes. next we need to shut down the people who employ illegals.

I'll agree.

Furthermore, if the illegals are caught and arrested, put them on chain gangs and have them do jobs that legal americans don't want to do. You'll see a mass exodus back to mexico or folks signing up to become citizens.

I don't like it one bit. They need to hire more border security or disband this stupid Dept of Homeland Security and throw all those men and resources at the border. The Natl guard doesn't belong on our borders. It's creepy to have an army en masse on your own soil. It scares the hell out of me actually. I can see using them as temporary solutions for disasters, but not for permanent or semi permanent border security. Especially since the bordering country isn't hostile. I think they are doing this because it's cheaper than hiring more border security, not because it's a good idea.

Agreed. We have a force to police the border. It should be made effective instead of militarizing our border. And yes, I do see it leading to civil rights abuses. The Border Patrol is trained to deal with immigration issues and are residents of the areas they patrol. National Guard troops bussed in from different states are trained for combat. I sure would hate to be a brown skinned US citizen going about my business too close to the border. And I'd wager a good portion of US citizens around the border are from Hispanic descent.

I'm not saying that something didn't need to be done, and done a long time ago, but I just don't think this is the solution by a long shot.

quote Originally posted by cccharlie: http://utterlyboring.com/images/1weekendamonth.jpg

hahaha

quote Originally posted by connecticutFIERO: I don't like it one bit. They need to hire more border security or disband this stupid Dept of Homeland Security and throw all those men and resources at the border. The Natl guard doesn't belong on our borders. It's creepy to have an army en masse on your own soil. It scares the hell out of me actually. I can see using them as temporary solutions for disasters, but not for permanent or semi permanent border security. Especially since the bordering country isn't hostile. I think they are doing this because it's cheaper than hiring more border security, not because it's a good idea.

It's even creepier to be surrounded by bunch of illegal immigrants that send their earnings back to Mexico to bring other up, parading around with Mexican flags, screaming they are entitled to rights under the UNITED STATES CONSTITUTION.

I don't know this answer..... Doesn't Canada have Canadian Military at all of their boarder crossing?

To let you all in on this, the federal government has been employing military near the boarder for years, but it's been for counter drug operations.

I may be mistaken but I am thinking it is against the law, or maybe our Constitution, to have the military enforce our laws. Unless martial law is declared.

quote Originally posted by jetman: Furthermore, if the illegals are caught and arrested, put them on chain gangs and have them do jobs that legal americans don't want to do. You'll see a mass exodus back to mexico or folks signing up to become citizens.

I agree with jetman. I believe our border can seal it's self.

quote Originally posted by cliffw: There should be no amnesty. Anyone caught here illegally will be inelligible for legal immigration. Felony offense for those hiring illegal immigrants. Deportation problem all but solved. The rest of the deportation can be solved by imprisonment for a time of those caught here illegally. They can be on a work program to pay for housing and deportaion costs. The reason we have this problem is financial incentive and lack of enforcement of our laws. These two things will seal our borders as the word spreads.

Posse comitatise (sp)? law forbids federal troops to be law enforcement. The federal government got around this with federal troops on drug enforcement by having the soldiers just point out the who, what, where, why and when of the drug trafficking and the DEA and boarder patrols made the arrests. Soldiers on this mission are only allowed to fire upon the traffickers or illegal aliens when they are considered to be in harms way.

National Guardsmen can enforce the laws as long as they are not federalized. (The state calls them to aid in a crisis or event.)

quote Originally posted by connecticutFIERO: I don't like it one bit. They need to hire more border security or disband this stupid Dept of Homeland Security and throw all those men and resources at the border. The Natl guard doesn't belong on our borders. It's creepy to have an army en masse on your own soil. It scares the hell out of me actually. I can see using them as temporary solutions for disasters, but not for permanent or semi permanent border security. Especially since the bordering country isn't hostile. I think they are doing this because it's cheaper than hiring more border security, not because it's a good idea.

I--think it's being done for poll #s. However, I don't think it's a particularly bad idea. The national guard can be a usefull tool, and it's job is indeed to protect the country. I would think they would be preferable over citizen groups that are out there now, tho ntl guard is a citizen soldier, but a highly trained and professional-in-all-aspects citizen soldier.

There's been a lot of discussion here in the last few years about guard units having so much of the work load overseas in combat zones, and to be honest, I'm in favor of them doing their share, but now that they have, it's time to bring them home, and have them perform duties of the kind that is more traditional in nature . They have done an absoulutely tremendous job overseas, and IMO, deserve something a bit less dangerous for awhile. And, It's a lot easier to pull Guard and Reserve units off our border to go to an emergency like earthquakes, hurricanes etc, than it is to pull them off assignments overseas.

quote Originally posted by cliffw: I may be mistaken but I am thinking it is against the law, or maybe our Constitution, to have the military enforce our laws. Unless martial law is declared.

This was discussed on CNN Friday and it was mentioned that GW may declare that. Although nobody talking was representing the white house, so it is all hearsay.

[This message has been edited by cancerkazoo (edited 05-14-2006).]

"Usually martial law reduces some of the personal rights ordinarily granted to the citizen, limits the length of the trial processes, and prescribes more severe penalties than ordinary law."

I duno if I really want that.

http://www.usconstitution.net/consttop_mlaw.html

quote Originally posted by cancerkazoo: This wa discussed on CNN Friday and it was mentioned that GW may declare that. Although nobady talking was representing the withe house, so it is all hearsay.

[This message has been edited by 84Bill (edited 05-13-2006).]

quote Originally posted by aceman: The federal government got around this with federal troops on drug enforcement by having the soldiers just point out the who, what, where, why and when .........

A little of topic but........
Heh....typical. The government uses grey areas of law to get around the law. A citizen does it and will get prosecuted.

quote Originally posted by 84Bill/JStricker:

Completely unrelated, but PM sent. Bill or JStricker, I need a wiring schematic for an 84 2 speed wiper circuit. Can't get low speed or wiper blade park function to work.

Thanks.

Related PM sent.

quote Originally posted by Wichita: Should have been done a long time ago. But I'm sure the leftist are going to cry foul and call it a human rights abuse.

Nope, Send them ****ing packing!
My grandmother and my grandfathers mother (grandpa was half native American) came to this country legally, worked their asses of and be came American citizens, I don’t care what kind of hard **** they have to endure in Mexico it’s no worse then for my grandmother during WWII, who was snuck out of Poland after the Germans invaded.

IF they don’t want to do it legally I say **** 'em and I’m one of the leftist guys on this board.

Whether you agree or not, the National Guard Guys and Gals now may loose their jobs, certainly they will take a big hit financially as are those in Iraq. Unless the positions and time assignments are retated properly some will certainly be away from their jobs for extended periods. I didn't read the article, but I hope the slots are rotated by using National guard troops from ALL states equally. Ed

quote Originally posted by aceman: I don't know this answer..... Doesn't Canada have Canadian Military at all of their boarder crossing?

No...our border guards are JUST about to get sidearms.

I'm not opposed to having the National Guard or the Army on the borders just like the we have the military at the 54th paralell in Korea to stop the invasion of a foreign force.

The number of illegals crossing the borders at night is another word for INVASION. They need to be discouraged.

quote Originally posted by Firefighter: Whether you agree or not, the National Guard Guys and Gals now may loose their jobs, certainly they will take a big hit financially as are those in Iraq. Unless the positions and time assignments are retated properly some will certainly be away from their jobs for extended periods. I didn't read the article, but I hope the slots are rotated by using National guard troops from ALL states equally. Ed

This job loss very rarely happens, if the service member knows his/her rights. I've seen several employers try to circumvent the Uniformed Service Employment and Re-employment Rights Act of 1994, and each regretted it. The law is clear, and has been ammended several times to close loopholes.

Yes, it applies to National Guard and Reserve components-as well as other federal agencies.

(16) The term 'uniformed services' means the Armed Forces, the Army National Guard and the Air National Guard when engaged in active duty for training, inactive duty training, or full-time National Guard duty, the commissioned corps of the Public Health Service, and any other category of persons designated by the President in time of war or national emergency.

Initially, there was, and sort of still is, a 5 year clause--meaning the employer became exempt if the service member was gone more than 5 yrs. This now applies only if the service member chooses not to return. In other words, any and all needs of the military service supercede the 5 yr exemption clause, if those needs require the service member to stay away for trraining, duties (combat or otherwise), hospitilazation due to injuries in the performance of their duties, or any other reason the service member is required to stay away from their civilian job.

In addition, it applies to all employers-regardless of their size.

http://www.esgr.org/employers2/thelaw.asp?c=userra0.html

http://www.esgr.org/employers2/thelaw.asp

This is a pretty airtight law, and with a well organized ombudsman organization to look into any disputes or abuses.

Don,

I didn't get any PM, but I can walk over to the shop and get your circuit diagram for you if you need it.

John Stricker

PS: What the hell, if you need it or not, I'll walk over and get it, I need to get out of the house for awhile. You'll have an email in a bit.

quote Originally posted by maryjane: Completely unrelated, but PM sent. Bill or JStricker, I need a wiring schematic for an 84 2 speed wiper circuit. Can't get low speed or wiper blade park function to work. Thanks.

quote Originally posted by maryjane: I--think it's being done for poll #s. However, I don't think it's a particularly bad idea. The national guard can be a usefull tool, and it's job is indeed to protect the country. I

The "extra" bonus points are:

1. Decrease in the amount of drug smuggling.
2. MS13 Thugs and gangs sneeking across the borders
3. Illegal aliens commiting crimes in the U.S.A. and trying to sneek back into Mexico.
4. Smuggled car theft rings decreasing.
5. ???

[This message has been edited by madcurl (edited 05-13-2006).]

quote Originally posted by madcurl: The "extra" bonus points are: 1. Decrease in the amount of drug smuggling. 2. MS13 Thugs and gangs sneeking across the borders 3. Illegal aliens commiting crimes in the U.S.A. and trying to sneek back into Mexico. 4. Smuggled car theft rings decreasing. 5. ???

Why doesn't the U.S. Border Patrol, DEA, and Customs Agents control this? How exactly is martial law going to do things better? It's not like the National Guard is filling a void, they would just be going in to do the job that someone else was hired, trained, and paid to do. I would think that would piss off some taxpayers. It annoys me.

Don,

All of your schematics and trouble shooting stuff is at THIS LINK.

Have fun.

John Stricker

quote Originally posted by maryjane: Completely unrelated, but PM sent. Bill or JStricker, I need a wiring schematic for an 84 2 speed wiper circuit. Can't get low speed or wiper blade park function to work. Thanks.

quote Originally posted by madcurl: The "extra" bonus points are: 1. Decrease in the amount of drug smuggling. 2. MS13 Thugs and gangs sneeking across the borders 3. Illegal aliens commiting crimes in the U.S.A. and trying to sneek back into Mexico. 4. Smuggled car theft rings decreasing. 5. ???

5.??? Perhaps a significant # of NG members will find it interesting enough work to enter the border patrol service when their NG enlistments are up.
6. Maybe they can arrange it so NG units from Minn, Nebraska,N . Dakota, and other frozen states can pull their duty on the border during the winter months.


One of the things I'm afraid the DoD may try to use this border duty for, is to partially aclimatize NG troops in preparation for mideast duty.

quote Originally posted by maryjane: Actually, it is EXACTLY like that. They are filling the void, on a very very long border.

The void will be a lot longer when we tell em where our National Guard will be doing the patroling. Yes ?

You're welcome. Let me know if you need anything else.

John Stricker

quote Originally posted by maryjane: Thanks John--I'm going there now!

quote Originally posted by maryjane: Actually, it is EXACTLY like that. They are filling the void, on a very very long border. Don't know how it is in Calif, but the border here in Texas is really rough terrain, and the Border Patrol couldn't cover it all if every BP agent in the country was assigned to Texas. The BP requirements and background checks are pretty significant, and they have trouble filling their new classes every hiring session because most applicants don't meet the requirements. The past employment, criminal, and family background check is a real bear, as is the financial background check. I went thru it about yrs ago, and that was before 911.

OK, let me rephrase. It may be filling a void in numbers, but not in function. There is a beuracracy that we are paying for on many levels. Why make it so hard to be Border Patrol when a National Guardsman can do the job? It just doesn't make sense to me. I've always been under the understanding that National Guard is there to respond to civil emergencies, and culling favor for mid-term elections doesn't seem to fit the bill for me as a civil emergency. Call me cynical.

quote Originally posted by Telegram Sam: and culling favor for mid-term elections doesn't seem to fit the bill for me as a civil emergency. Call me cynical.

i agree, there's probably a good bit of election-year grandstanding going on here, and i think martial law is wholly inappropriate. but there is a problem at the border, and this is a plausible way to address it, until we come up with a better plan.

quote Why make it so hard to be Border Patrol when a National Guardsman can do the job? It just doesn't make sense to me. I've always been under the understanding that National Guard is there to respond to civil emergencies, and culling favor for mid-term elections doesn't seem to fit the bill for me as a civil emergency.

They aren't making it hard-it has always been hard.
Because the potential for both graft, corruption and criminal activity is there for border patrol agents. They deal with wealthy drug trafficers, human traffikers, and just about everything else you can think of. If an agent is in a financial bind for any reason, they are suseptible to being influenced by those they are supposed to be in control of. Throw the terrorist element in and it just gets worse.


The other thing, is that the job is HARD-both physically and emotionally demanding. Turnover rate is pretty high. The fact that they are 'recycling' the same people over and over takes a toll on them. They catch 1 in 150 illegal entrants. They catch only a small fraction of illegal drugs. The BP agent gets tired of fighting a losing battle, and goes elsewhere. And, according to the agents here in San Angelo, it wouldn't matter how much they were being paid--it just isn't worth it each day to have to go thru the same risks, with little results. They NEED the help. Maybe not the Natl Guard, but they definitely need something. At least in the realm of support and logistics. The Border Patrol can still do the actual interdiction stuff, just rely on the NG for things they now have to sacrifice manpower to do. Technical expertise, air surveilance, communication networks are some of the things the NG brings to the table, as well as the message it sends to both the Mexican govt and would be crossers that it is fixing to get a whole lot tougher to illeglly cross our border.
I've already said I think the poll #s has at least a little to do with this plan, but the fact is, most people are in favor of it, and about 1/2 the country believes the immigration problem is indeed a national emergency. In Aug 2005, both governors of Arizona and New Mexico declared states of emergency because of the influx of foreign nationals illegally crossing their borders.
Our southern border is basically porous as heck. I've driven the border of southwest Texas and at night, rarely see a soul for miles. I have little doubt a full battalion of the worst trained army in the world could pass onto the soil of the Southwest United States without ever being detected--with just a little planning. Not saying any army is going to attmpt that, just an illustration of how porous the border is. . I'm not saying the Border Patrol agents aren't doing the best they can either--they are. But the land mass they have to patrol is significant. 1952 miles of some of the most inhospitable land in the country. Arizona alone estimates 4000 people attempt to cross it's border EACH NIGHT.

quote Following last week's declaration of states of emergency by the governors of New Mexico and Arizona, done in order to get federal funds to help handle an influx of illegal immigrants, one Arizona lawmaker has announced plans to introduce a bill in Congress that would boost enforcement of the porous border. "When you have the situation that we have in Arizona — where, by some estimates, over 4,000 illegals attempt to cross every night — this is not just a crisis, it's a full-scale invasion," Rep. J.D. Hayworth (search), R-Ariz., told FOX News on Friday

And, I've heard no one outside this forum discuss the emplementation of martial law by the National Guard or anyone else. (I haven't listened to the minutemen stuff)
I think that is a bit more than speculation and very premature to even suggest it is about to happen.

[This message has been edited by maryjane (edited 05-14-2006).]

Some people in TX, AZ, NM, and CA might argue it is a civil emergency. I see you're in CA Sam, isn't this a better stop-gap solution than letting the problem get worse for the next 12 months at least while trying to hire and train more BP Agents? I haven't found the stats, but I'd wager the BP is having a hard time finding people to do the job with the unemployment as low as it is right now. Let's face it, we don't pay these people much for what they have to put up with. They start at a GS-5 which is a little under 35,000/year and in order to do the job you'd have to have a "cop" mentality. You can't apply if you're over 40 and you have to work 25 years to retire. The Feds have pretty good benefits, relatively speaking, but that's still not a whole heck of a lot of money to go get new recruits and you're not going to find many college graduates at that pay rate.

John Stricker

(Lin k to border patrol job listing)

quote Originally posted by Telegram Sam: OK, let me rephrase. It may be filling a void in numbers, but not in function. There is a beuracracy that we are paying for on many levels. Why make it so hard to be Border Patrol when a National Guardsman can do the job? It just doesn't make sense to me. I've always been under the understanding that National Guard is there to respond to civil emergencies, and culling favor for mid-term elections doesn't seem to fit the bill for me as a civil emergency. Call me cynical.

[This message has been edited by jstricker (edited 05-14-2006).]