Anybody that shows so much hatred for the people that serve this country must be a very unhappy man. You pick and choose what "facts" support your position. I don't have a position. I don't think that the killings were justified or right. I've said that all along yet you behave as if I support the actions of that day. If you think that you're a much bigger fool than I ever thought you were. I could say more, but you won't read it, you'll be too busy adjusting your tinfoil hat.
I'd agree with you IF one of the soldiers was killed by a rock or bottle. However in this case the lack of training and loss of control of trained killers was responsible for the deaths of 4 people. IF one of the victims was shot and killed by something other than a military issued weapon, this is the first time I've heard of it.
quote
Originally posted by jstricker:
Ok Bill, I'll play................
Plenty of blame, and the "pigs" only get to shoulder part of it.
John Stricker
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06:04 AM
84fiero123 Member
Posts: 29950 From: farmington, maine usa Registered: Oct 2004
My bar is apparently set a little lower than yours. I do not believe that a policeman (or guardsman) should have to die before they are allowed to defend themselves. What I do think is that they never should have been there in the first place. Back at the time there were several reports of at least one of the victims being hit by non-military rounds and the link from Wikipedia mentions it as well when they say
quote
According to Guard records based on a medical examiner's report, one of the students was struck by a non-military round in the back of the head, though the bullet was never produced as evidence.
Was that really a fact? I have no idea...I personally find it highly unlikely, but it's possible.
John Stricker
quote
Originally posted by 84Bill:
I'd agree with you IF one of the soldiers was killed by a rock or bottle. However in this case the lack of training and loss of control of trained killers was responsible for the deaths of 4 people. IF one of the victims was shot and killed by something other than a military issued weapon, this is the first time I've heard of it.
It has nothing to do with a bar being lowered. The question I have is a rock or bottle considered "a deadly weapon" necessitating the use deadly force in defense?
quote
Originally posted by jstricker:
Bill,
My bar is apparently set a little lower than yours. I do not believe that a policeman (or guardsman) should have to die before they are allowed to defend themselves. What I do think is that they never should have been there in the first place. Back at the time there were several reports of at least one of the victims being hit by non-military rounds and the link from Wikipedia mentions it as well when they say
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09:16 AM
Wolfhound Member
Posts: 5317 From: Opelika , Alabama, USA Registered: Oct 1999
The ROTC building that burned was abandoned, boarded up, and slated for demolition. Who set the fire is not known but some believe it was a set up.
It is known that the FBI infiltrated the peace movment with "agent provocatures" whos job it was to instigate and carry out acts to discredit the organazations from within. So this is not an off the wall theory.
Lots of dirty tricks at the time. Some came forward years after the fact.
Anybody that shows so much hatred for the people that serve this country must be a very unhappy man. You pick and choose what "facts" support your position. I don't have a position. I don't think that the killings were justified or right. I've said that all along yet you behave as if I support the actions of that day. If you think that you're a much bigger fool than I ever thought you were. I could say more, but you won't read it, you'll be too busy adjusting your tinfoil hat.
John Stricker
no I do not have"hatred for the people that serve this country" just those who kill people in unjustified and unnessaryly ways and use their position to get away with murder those very few people, yes I do hate, as should everyone , who loves freedom but they are NOT those who serve this country their very actions are a disservice and a stain on the record
you may not remember but I was a rightwing kid who supported GOLDWATER in 64 only by hanging out at a VA hospital [for the huge swimming pool] did I meet wounded vets from V-Nam, and by talking to them changed my outlook on the war and civil rights ect sorry dude but the last thing I was againts was the troops
the neo-conned have two big lies at work here and you are buying in to them protesters are disloyal or nuts that is not true the facts and history show the evil was on the goverments side the FBI and nixon were caught in many ilegal actions there were outside agitators at work but they didnot draw pay from the commies they were goverment agents trying to create disaster so the troops could follow in their wake as nixon and the FBI wanted the purpose of this action was simple TERROR our goverment wanted to use TERROR to stop the protests like too many other goverment projects it backfired big time
btw we WON the war stoped and the kkk and jim crow died nixon and hoover are known to be crooks it was a long hard fight but we were on the side of good the neo-conned were on the side of evil then as now
------------------ Question wonder and be wierd are you kind?
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03:47 PM
jstricker Member
Posts: 12956 From: Russell, KS USA Registered: Apr 2002
no I do not have"hatred for the people that serve this country" just those who kill people in unjustified and unnessaryly ways and use their position to get away with murder those very few people, yes I do hate, as should everyone , who loves freedom but they are NOT those who serve this country their very actions are a disservice and a stain on the record
BS. You've been on here posting calling anyone in a police officer's uniform a PIG. Your disdain for those that serve is a matter of record here Ray.
quote
Originally posted by ray b: you may not remember but I was a rightwing kid who supported GOLDWATER in 64 only by hanging out at a VA hospital [for the huge swimming pool] did I meet wounded vets from V-Nam, and by talking to them changed my outlook on the war and civil rights ect sorry dude but the last thing I was againts was the troops
More BS. The guard there WERE the troops and you've made your opinion on THEM very clear.
quote
Originally posted by ray b: the neo-conned have two big lies at work here and you are buying in to them protesters are disloyal or nuts that is not true
Show me where I ever said or insinuated that, Ray. I think neither of those things nor have I ever said it.
quote
Originally posted by ray b: the facts and history show the evil was on the goverments side the FBI and nixon were caught in many ilegal actions there were outside agitators at work but they didnot draw pay from the commies they were goverment agents trying to create disaster so the troops could follow in their wake as nixon and the FBI wanted the purpose of this action was simple TERROR our goverment wanted to use TERROR to stop the protests like too many other goverment projects it backfired big time
There is not one shred of evidence to support any of that BS about the government agitators or plants in the crowd, only conjecture and innuendo. I lived through that time too, Ray.
quote
Originally posted by ray b: btw we WON the war stoped
How did you help win anything hiding out in Canada, Ray?
quote
Originally posted by ray b: and the kkk and jim crow died nixon and hoover are known to be crooks it was a long hard fight but we were on the side of good the neo-conned were on the side of evil then as now
And of course you are as pure as the driven snow. More BS from the master BS'er. You claim I'm a "neo-con". Am *I* evil Ray? If you think so, how can you make such a judgement? Because I didn't go hide with you in Canada? What a courageous move that was. IMHO you dishonor those that DID die at Kent State with your rantings because at least they stayed here and fought for what they believed instead of running away.
Too non-politically correct? Tough sh#$@.
I'm done with you, rant on dude.
John Stricker
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06:45 PM
84fiero123 Member
Posts: 29950 From: farmington, maine usa Registered: Oct 2004
BS. You've been on here posting calling anyone in a police officer's uniform a PIG. Your disdain for those that serve is a matter of record here Ray.
There is not one shred of evidence to support any of that BS about the government agitators or plants in the crowd, only conjecture and innuendo. I lived through that time too, Ray.
And of course you are as pure as the driven snow. More BS from the master BS'er. You claim I'm a "neo-con". Am *I* evil Ray? If you think so, how can you make such a judgement? Because I didn't go hide with you in Canada? What a courageous move that was. IMHO you dishonor those that DID die at Kent State with your rantings because at least they stayed here and fought for what they believed instead of running away.
Too non-politically correct? Tough sh#$@.
I'm done with you, rant on dude.
John Stricker
I call the PIGS what they are like many other thing in your quotes YOUR ARE WRONG is every one or even most of the cops, troops, ect a PIG no and I never said that but the sure were some and by their actions define them like the guy who aimed for the unarmed man shooting a ''bird'' or the guy who shot the unarmed girl 330+ ' away but the real pigs were the ones who DIDNOT investigate this MURDER never ran balistics on the guns ect used their positions to hid the truth
the the government agitators or plants in the crowd is a proven fact they have his name and picture here http://speccoll.library.kent.edu/4may70/box28/54315a.jpg his name is Terry Norman and he was was "under contract to the FBI " and the only one found with a gun FBI records are KNOWN now thanks to the FREEDOM OF INFO ACT we know who got paid how much and when thanks to FBI RECORDS so no conjecture and innuendo is needed
also I never went to canada or any other country in the time of the draft in fact never left Fla from 68 when I turned 18 till the end of the draft had a 2S when in school was 1A for a while then earned a 1Y intill the loto drawing and got a number in the 300+
evil is as evil does, those who lie and support the doers of evil even at this late date dispute facts with BS and disinformation same as it everwas
[This message has been edited by ray b (edited 05-05-2006).]
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07:01 PM
jstricker Member
Posts: 12956 From: Russell, KS USA Registered: Apr 2002
Steve, I believe I'll join you. While I don't think the protestors were "innocents", they certainly did nothing to deserve to die that day and they should be remembered so it doesn't happen again.
John Stricker
quote
Originally posted by 84fiero123:
I rant and rave about unions this I admit.
This started out as a nice civil discussion about 4 dead kids who died during a tumultuous time in our history.
We, at least those of us oldsters, all know the story and the other stories about the FBI, CIA, dirty politicians.
I for one am going to sit down and listen to Ohio one last time in their honor and just forget about this thread.
I'd like to thank all those that replied here. It shows you care in one way or another, no matter what side of the fence you stand. Some people are more neutral than others and some are incensed. Having lived during that time, only 3 years younger than some of the victims, it still moves me.
Let me ask you how you feel about these protestors John.
On the evening of March 5, 1770, Private Hugh White was on guard in front of the Customs House on King Street in Boston. A crowd of people had gathered and began harassing the soldier. His calls for help brought nine soldiers led by Captain Thomas Preston. The crowd continued to harass the soldiers with insults, and were throwing snowballs at them. In the commotion, someone yelled, "Fire!" and soldiers began shooting. Three townspeople were killed and eight more were wounded, two of which died later. No one knew who gave the order to fire.
quote
Originally posted by jstricker:
Steve, I believe I'll join you. While I don't think the protestors were "innocents", they certainly did nothing to deserve to die that day and they should be remembered so it doesn't happen again.
John Stricker
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09:02 PM
jstricker Member
Posts: 12956 From: Russell, KS USA Registered: Apr 2002
I think, Bill, that if you are going to protest, exercise your right of free speech, and do that in front of an armed soldier, you had best weigh carefully the possibility that things might turn out badly for you. Do I think the protesters were right in protesting (at Kent State or in your example)? I don't know. I'm pretty sure I personally would have weighed the options and probably NOT been there, but that would have been a decision I would have made for me and me alone. There are other things that have been protested that I'm sure I would have been there, regardless of consequences.
In the case of Kent State, it was more than a "protest" Bill. It was a mob, and had been going off and on for several days. Things had escalated to the point that anyone on the outside looking in could see this was not going to end well. Someone was going to get hurt and/or die. Some things are worth dying for. Some causes are even necessary to die for. I wonder if the two kids walking to class that weren't involved in the protesting but were hit by the fire thought it was worth it?
Whenever this kind of thing gets to this point, people that aren't involved always get hurt as well. How many innocents in Iraq have died due to the actions of the insurgency? Those people didn't want to be involved in the fighting, they just want to live their lives, but they're still dead. Yes, you can take that further and say that it includes those that were killed when we first went into Iraq, but for the last year or more it's been all on the "insurgents" shoulders as far as I'm concerned.
I believe in the right to protest and freedom of expression. I do not believe that right extends to burning down buildings, throwing rocks and bottles at firemen, police, and guardsman, or otherwise destruction of property. I do not believe that my right to dissent should get other people killed that didn't make that decision for themselves.
You've been in a mob or group of protesters, Bill. You tell me. Are ALL of them there so deeply committed that they know what they're doing or are a whole lot of them just there to be cool? When anger and emotion override common sense, and you're up against someone with a gun, you best be certain your cause is worth dying for, Bill. Some are, some aren't. You gave the example of a precursor to the Revolutionary war, let me throw one back at you. How do you feel about the protesters and riots after the Rodney King verdict in LA? Do you think that truck driver that got dragged out of his truck and damn near beat to death with a brick deserved it?
We have the benefit of being able to look back with 20/20 vision at things now. They aren't so clear in the heat of the moment.
John Stricker
quote
Originally posted by 84Bill:
Let me ask you how you feel about these protestors John.
On the evening of March 5, 1770, Private Hugh White was on guard in front of the Customs House on King Street in Boston. A crowd of people had gathered and began harassing the soldier. His calls for help brought nine soldiers led by Captain Thomas Preston. The crowd continued to harass the soldiers with insults, and were throwing snowballs at them. In the commotion, someone yelled, "Fire!" and soldiers began shooting. Three townspeople were killed and eight more were wounded, two of which died later. No one knew who gave the order to fire.
John... I'm not sure if you are aware but the protestors that died brought about change... very important change. Without their sacrefices (especially those on March 5, 1770) we would not be where we are today. I feel that you underestimate the importance of questioning authority through protest.. be it "violent" or peacefull. However history has show that the more agressive the protest the more change will result. Regardless of the level I honor those who have stood up, questioned authority and paid the ultimate. Bow your head John, because without their willingnees to protest (especially those on March 5, 1770) you would not be what you are today.
You may not agree with their methods but you simply must honor their cause. Anything short of that is....... well I'd ratehr not say.
quote
Originally posted by jstricker:
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03:55 AM
jstricker Member
Posts: 12956 From: Russell, KS USA Registered: Apr 2002
Sometimes tragedies like what happened at Kent State are necessary. Sometimes they're senseless and accomplish nothing. From my perspective, I'd say that there is about a 50/50 chance that when students or other protesters die for a "cause" it will be meaningful for change. We have the benefit of hindsight, Bill, so we can look back and see what was, and was not, worth doing. At the moment of action, whoever, we have no such luxury. We're also hampered in our decision making about events like this because as we all know, the winners get to write the history books.
Because of the lack of hindsight, if you're going to participate in a protest or civil disobedience, and there are armed police or military there to "keep the peace", you had best be prepared in your heart and soul to die for that cause. Not that you necessarily WILL die for it, but you'd better be prepared to do it because it can happen.
Not EVERY protest like this is worth dying for, Bill. The students that died at Tiananmen Square really didn't accomplish anything other than they're dead. The rioters after the Rodney King verdict really didn't accomplish anything. There are protests and people getting hurt and dying in South Korea right now because some want the US Military presence gone. Gine with me, let's go, but I can guarantee you that the North will move down South and conquer it within 18 months. So where would that leave S Korea Bill? Would the protesters have been right.........or wrong? There have also been protests and revolutions that have simply been wrong minded. The communist Revolution in the Soviet Union, for instance. If you want to look at a Mexican perspective, the people in Texas were wrong for revolting against Mexico and there were traitors at the Alamo. That pespective is quite a lot different than ours.
I respect anyone that has the courage to stand up and shake their fist while screaming "I have had enough!!". But that doesn't necessarily mean that I AGREE with them, or with any particular method. I think that what happened at Kent State, at that point in tiem, was absolutely positively a waste of human lives. I also absolutely positively think that it was inevitable that it was going to happen SOMEWHERE within a few months of it happening there. After Kent State, even those that supported being in Viet Nam, said "Look, we're killing each other, not the enemy, not it's REALLY time to get out of there." I think that had to happen before getting out was taken seriously. If you recall, Bill, we had been in Viet Nam for a decade with what seemed continuous escalation.
It may take something like this to get us out of Iraq, although American loss of life hasn't been as great there as in Viet Nam. Time will tell.
The thing I don't understand, and never will, is how anyone can be particularly SURPRISED when there is a mob of people (students, whatever) that are throwing rocks and bottles, advancing on an armed militia unit, and they are fired on. Either purposely or by accident, there's a hell of a good chance that can happen. Whether Ray and the others agree or not, the Guard at Kent State were RETREATING to try to defuse a situation. The protesters saw this as a sign of weakness and continued the asssault by following them. Whether it was from panic, mistake, or by order, that was a tragic error in their behavior. Nobody had to die that day, despite it's inevitability eventually. The guard didn't HAVE to have been called out by the governor. A state of emergency may or may not have been necessary by the mayor. The protestors didn't have to turn to violence by throwing rocks and bottles. They certainly didn't have to follow and advance on the retreating guard. Any one of these things, if removed, would have kept people from dying that day.
John Stricker
quote
Originally posted by 84Bill:
John... I'm not sure if you are aware but the protestors that died brought about change... very important change. Without their sacrefices (especially those on March 5, 1770) we would not be where we are today. I feel that you underestimate the importance of questioning authority through protest.. be it "violent" or peacefull. However history has show that the more agressive the protest the more change will result. Regardless of the level I honor those who have stood up, questioned authority and paid the ultimate. Bow your head John, because without their willingnees to protest (especially those on March 5, 1770) you would not be what you are today.
You may not agree with their methods but you simply must honor their cause. Anything short of that is....... well I'd ratehr not say.