Everything I have seen or read is the fact that the US said Saddam had weapons of mass destruction and they declared war on him. Now by no means think I am taking up For Saddam. But in our country we are Innocent until proven guilty. As far as I know there has never been any weapons found. Now someone said he had those Mobil labs that were capable of making WOMD. So what, do you think the US does not have labs that can make WOMD. Now can you accuse me of making pipe bombs, just because I have the knowledge to make them. Like I said before you are Innocent until proving guilty. And I think that the US stirred up a hornet's nest in Iraq.

quote Originally posted by ka4nkf: As far as I know there has never been any weapons found.

You need to stop getting your information from CBS and CNN

quote Originally posted by ka4nkf: But in our country we are Innocent until proven guilty. Like I said before you are Innocent until proving guilty. And I think that the US stirred up a hornet's nest in Iraq.

The innocent until proven guilty standard is for within the U.S. Iraq isn't the U.S. And even within the U.S., there are cases that are not innocent until proven guilty. Like traffic tickets, for example.

To compare Iraq to the U.S. regarding capability of making weapons of mass destruction is faulty. The U.S. does not have a well documented history of unleasing them on people--like on our own people or a neighboring country.

You are right about us stirring up a hornet's nest.

quote Originally posted by frontal lobe: The U.S. does not have a well documented history of unleasing them on people

Hiroshima or Nagasaki ring any bells?

quote Originally posted by frontal lobe: The innocent until proven guilty standard is for within the U.S. Iraq isn't the U.S. And even within the U.S., there are cases that are not innocent until proven guilty. Like traffic tickets, for example. To compare Iraq to the U.S. regarding capability of making weapons of mass destruction is faulty. The U.S. does not have a well documented history of unleasing them on people--like on our own people or a neighboring country. You are right about us stirring up a hornet's nest.

What you say makes sense, but I have always thought that the US gives a fair trail to everyone. Like this mouisoui (spelling) from 011 who should be hung to start with and not even have a trail, but that is not the way the US operates. As far as the US not killing people with a powerful weapon, then I don't know what you would call the atom bomb. Look at all those Innocent victims that were killed or destroyed for the rest of their life. I love the US and would do anything to protect it, but don't think we are perfect, because we have made some bad decisions also. Like I said I don't remember seeing car bombings In Iraq until we took over. It was not Saddam that caused the 911 attack, I thing it was the Bin Laden group. So why did we not pursue him instead of attacking Iraq. I don't know what to think anymore since you don't know who is lying or telling the truth. Colan Powell said he knew for sure that Iraq had WOMD. well he was wrong and these kind of statements is what gets you into trouble. I got to where that I don't care about Iraq anymore (except for all the poor us men and women that lost their lives) Reminds me of the Vietnam war, nothing accomplished.
Don

quote Originally posted by 84Bill: Most of the dificulties regarding other cultures and their screatching about US involvement stems from people expecting the government ("WE THE PEOPLE") to do something about it while you sit back with your feet propped up playing Monday morning quaterback. If you want to change attitudes then get up, sign up, open you big fat wallet, git er done and stop expecting the government to invaid every country and change the worlds attitude and evil ways to suit you taste. Those people aint worth the time, money, blood, sweat or tears because no matter how much of any "we" give them they won't appriciate it. If they want change THEY can change it for themselves.

holy **** , another rare instance where we agree with eachother

good post

quote Originally posted by Toddster: You need to stop getting your information from CBS and CNN

I get most of my info from Fox News. That Bill Oreilly tells it like it is.
Don

Don,

Don't get me wrong. I agree with you that the US has not been perfect. I personally wouldn't include the use of the atomic bomb as one of the times we wrongly used a weapon of mass destruction, after what Japan had been doing for years. I WOULD include the fire bombing of Tokyo during WWII as wrong use of a womd, but that is just my opinion.

I agree Saddam didn't cause the 911 attack, either. But regarding Bin Laden, we DID aggressively pursue him. To finish the job would have involved invading Pakistan without their permission, and I don't know if people would have been willing to accept that as part of the price of getting him.

You may not care about Iraq anymore, but I can guarantee you that muslim Arabs throughout the middle east care VERY much about what happens in Iraq.

quote Originally posted by 84Bill: I don't see you leaping off you soapbox and doing something about it. How about joining a missionary, go there and teach these people how to be civil instead of asking the government to do it for you. Most of the dificulties regarding other cultures and their screatching about US involvement stems from people expecting the government ("WE THE PEOPLE") to do something about it while you sit back with your feet propped up playing Monday morning quaterback. If you want to change attitudes then get up, sign up, open you big fat wallet, git er done and stop expecting the government to invaid every country and change the worlds attitude and evil ways to suit you taste. Those people aint worth the time, money, blood, sweat or tears because no matter how much of any "we" give them they won't appriciate it. If they want change THEY can change it for themselves. Whatcha waitin for. grab you guns and go... God knows how many more innocents will die if you don't.

I have to agree with you . It is like finding a mother snake and four little baby snakes. You cannot just kill the mother snake, You have to kill the baby snakes also or you will never get any where. A snake is a snake and you will not change them. same as these ignorant people in Iraq. Their motto is to raise the kids up to be a car bomber.
Don

quote Originally posted by frontal lobe: There wasn't anything like the current civil war going on. What I was saying was that terrorism and torture and killing was going on while Saddam was in power...BY SADDAM. From what I had read, people were just taken from their families and disappeared. Never to be seen again. So people think there was "order" when Saddam was in power. I suppose. But there was still random torture and killing going on--by Saddam and his government. I guess the difference, if people don't care, is that it was only PEOPLE being killed, but hey, at least cars and buildings weren't being destroyed.

I think there was a big difference as it was not random violence. Saddam didn't have a lottery for who he tortured, he tortured people who caused him problems (in his eyes). The majority of Iraqis were not bothered and could walk the streets safely. There's a difference between being terrorized by your government, and being terrorized by people your government can't control.

Good Luck!

[This message has been edited by Tugboat (edited 04-20-2006).]

quote Originally posted by Tugboat: I think there was a big difference as it was not random violence. Saddam didn't have a lottery for who he tortured, he tortured people who caused him problems (in his eyes). The majority of Iraqis were not bothered and could walk the streets safely.

Actually, you couldn't be more wrong on this one. Saddam had his people randomly pick out people from the street and had them executed in public. Just to set an example to others. Studies suggest Saddam executed over 50,000 people in Baghdad alone.

If you compare the number of people killed by Saddam each year he was in power, and the number of people killed now due to terrorist attacks, you'll see that people actually have every reason to feel much "safer".

Actually the people would basically sell eachother out. The old "my neighbor is planning to overthrow you" which would prompt the death guards to kill all those implicated. If you didn't get along with someone and wanted to get rid of them it was VERY easy to do so. All you had to do was report it to your local police department and "the problem" disapeared. Those people brought it on themselves. How could such a tyranical leader get into power if the people themselves were not tyrants to eachother?

The US isn't all that far behind. If you don't believe me just call 1 800 DROP TEN.

quote Originally posted by 84Bill: Those people brought it on themselves. How could such a tyranical leader get into power if the people themselves were not tyrants to eachother?

quote The US isn't all that far behind.

Riiiiight.

I'm calling the department of immigration... or labor..I suspect you have been up to no good... and while I'm at it why not call the IRS and department of homeland security, no doubt they will find something you are hiding. Oh sure they wont kill you... thats just inhumane but by the time they are half thru with you you will be wishing you were dead.


It's just an example of mentality but don't think for a second that kind of crap doesn't play out in Amerika because it does. IF the constitution gets suspended and I believe thats the ultimate goal of this government then all bets are off and it's every man for himself.

quote Originally posted by fierobear: Riiiiight.

[This message has been edited by 84Bill (edited 04-21-2006).]

quote Originally posted by Cliff Pennock: Actually, you couldn't be more wrong on this one. Saddam had his people randomly pick out people from the street and had them executed in public. Just to set an example to others. Studies suggest Saddam executed over 50,000 people in Baghdad alone. If you compare the number of people killed by Saddam each year he was in power, and the number of people killed now due to terrorist attacks, you'll see that people actually have every reason to feel much "safer".

What kind of example would it set to execute somebody at random? That you might as well be planning something??

"Three years and the electricity is worse than ever. The security situation has gone from bad to worse. The country feels like it’s on the brink of chaos once more- but a pre-planned, pre-fabricated chaos being led by religious militias and zealots.

School, college and work have been on again, off again affairs. It seems for every two days of work/school, there are five days of sitting at home waiting for the situation to improve. Right now college and school are on hold because the “arba3eeniya” or the “40th Day” is coming up- more black and green flags, mobs of men in black and latmiyas. We were told the children should try going back to school next Wednesday. I say “try” because prior to the much-awaited parliamentary meeting a couple of days ago, schools were out. After the Samarra mosque bombing, schools were out. The children have been at home this year more than they’ve been in school."

http://riverbendblog.blogspot.com/

Safer? I just don't know...

Good Luck!

quote Originally posted by 84Bill: Actually the people would basically sell eachother out. The old "my neighbor is planning to overthrow you" which would prompt the death guards to kill all those implicated. If you didn't get along with someone and wanted to get rid of them it was VERY easy to do so. All you had to do was report it to your local police department and "the problem" disapeared. Those people brought it on themselves. How could such a tyranical leader get into power if the people themselves were not tyrants to eachother? The US isn't all that far behind. If you don't believe me just call 1 800 DROP TEN.

Yeah, like the people in Cuba, Eastern Europe and many other countries where tyrants rule.
They were all tyrannical to each other and brought it on themselves.

Dictatorships do strange things to people. The survival instict will often prompt people to sell out their family and neighbors.
Let's not blame the masses for rulers that have come to power by force.

Evidently.

quote Originally posted by Voytek: Yeah, like the people in Cuba, Eastern Europe and many other countries where tyrants rule. They were all tyrannical to each other and brought it on themselves.

Power by force? Force can be applied in many different ways... like lieing for example. Leaders who lie make the best dictators. Subversion of the truth, errosion of values and deceptions.. oh yeah.. we got that. I stand on my soapbox and speek of untruthes told to me... yet many turn away... Oh yes, they DO bring it onto themselves.

quote Dictatorships do strange things to people. The survival instict will often prompt people to sell out their family and neighbors. Let's not blame the masses for rulers that have come to power by force.

I think it has been said by me and some others that these Iraq people are crazy. Like bringing up their son to be a car bomber. I am going to have to take my statement back, because I got to thinking and the Japs did the same thing in World War 2 only they used Airplanes instead of cars. And I don't think the Japs are crazy. So I withdraw my statement that the Iraq's are crazy. also if you removed Castro from power, then you would see the same thing in Cuba.
Don

Wouldn't it be funny if Cliff had to move his own thread to the Trash Can ...

Hey this seems like an interesting thread but i am to lazy to read it all so can someone cliff note it for me?

Mean people suck.

quote Originally posted by pokeyfiero: Hey this seems like an interesting thread but i am to lazy to read it all so can someone cliff note it for me?

quote Originally posted by ka4nkf: I get most of my info from Fox News. That Bill Oreilly tells it like it is. Don

True. But, not to be argumentative, you should watch more regularly. It is true that Saddam's Nuclear Program was further behind that our intelligence thought but that is not the same as not finding WMD. We have found quite a bit of it.

here is one story from Fox which you will also find carried by the Washington Post and NYT
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,120137,00.html

and from an interview with Chief Weapons Inspector Duelfer,

Iraq Survey Chief: More WMD Found

The head of the U.S. team conducting the search for weapons of mass destruction in Iraq announced on Thursday that his group has uncovered at least ten more artillery shells filled with banned chemical weapons and is finding new WMD evidence "almost every day."

"We've found ten or twelve Sarin and Mustard rounds," said Charles Duelfer, who replaced David Kay as head of the Iraq survey group earlier this year after Kay concluded that WMDs were unlikely to be found.

"We're not sure how many more are out there that we haven't found," Duelfer added, in an exclusive interview with Fox News Channel's Brit Hume. "There are still surprises out there. We're finding things and we're getting reports of hidden caches almost every day which we have to investigate."

Last month, the Pentagon confirmed that the first of the Iraq WMD findings - two shells suspected of containing deadly chemical weapons - were indeed filled with Sarin and Mustard gas.

Still, despite the mounting tally of confirmed WMD findings, administration critics continue to insist that "Bush lied" about the presence of such weapons in Iraq before the war.

Duelfer told Fox that even if the shells had degraded over time, they were still capable of killing "dozens" of people. He warned that both soldiers and civilians in Iraq should carry gas masks and have access to chem-bio suits.

Before joining the U.S. team, Duelfer was a U.N. weapons inspector and was among the few who had investigated Saddam's top secret terrorist training camp Salman Pak.

In 2001 he confirmed that elite Fedayeen troops were conducting airplane hijacking drills aboard a parked Boeing 707, dismissing claims from Iraqi officials that what he saw was "counterterrorism training."

"Of course we automatically took out the word 'counter'," Duelfer told the London Observer. "I'm surprised that people seem to be shocked that there should be terror camps in Iraq."