Just so were all on the same page I will say again that I don't believe everything I hear or read or see, meaning that I don't necessarily believe anything in "loose change" but it asks some good questions and I think they could be answered by people who know the real answers. With that out of the way I don't believe that any one here is more right or wrong than any other source I have read up on and I don't think I have ever put in info on this discussion that was strictly based on what I know to be factual, what I've contributed has all been stuff that I have seen that got my attention back to the subject of 9-11.
As to some mix ups of mine a 737 and a 757 or 767 are not that dissimilar in terms of size so I don't think that leads to much discredit to the story and all I have ever heard was that they were 737s that hit the towers so thats what I posted Secondly I did read how the fires could cause the towers to collapse and it make sense more than the "loose change" theory but where they agree is that the fires alone couldn't cause the towers to collapse. And lastly I can't find any pictures that really point out that there was in fact a huge jet that crashed into the ground at either the Pennsylvania or Pentagon sites. I know planes hit the trade center because everybody saw the videos but there are no videos (available) for the pentagon or for Pennsylvania just pictures of the aftermath which is apparently still hard to come by and don't do a lot of justice to the actual reported events in regards to what it should have probably looked like and what it did look like.
I came into this discussion only to post what info I've seen and thought about, I only wanted to add to the discussion but not to argue weather I was right or not because I don't state anything here that I said "I know this to be true" I have always said "this is what I heard/saw". And to follow up on my tasteless input, yeah its pretty tasteless indeed but its not my work so please don't think I'm the tasteless thoughtless person who came up with it its just something I thought was most original and since other jokes have been posted in this thread about conspiracies I thought I would add the Tetris Conspiracy. There's a lot of tasteless stuff around, and thats just how life is so you either get pissed that it's there or you don't, I don't as a rule. I encourage creative personalities and I saw it as not being very un-American so I posted it.
And I don't think the dead can be all that angry nor should the living relatives of the dead, I have cried at a funeral but never thought I only wish they were still alive. Death is natural and tragedy is unavoidable so I just don't think it's so outrageous. Have you ever killed an animal on accident or on purpose and ever dwelled on the fact that somebody or something might miss it as much as if it were a person, that's just my same thoughts on when people die it just happened. It natural for us to be fragile and easily killed I don't find it neat or pleasing when people die but since god gave us this mind to create things that destroy and the ability to implement them I have to live with it, anything can kill you. But where this all fits into our government is that I see that there are a lot of thing that are probably flawed in how our government works and I would want to work to fix those problems, and our government not allowing us to know the truth about certain events is not right in my book. So the questions have to be asked enough to be addressed, to make me believe that our government is working for the people for the better of mankind, not for themselves to make themselves more powerful without any consideration for the nation or planet where I live. Everybody should be concerned one way or another.
Lastly fierogt88 you don't have to converse with me if you don't want, say anything you want and you will never get an rude retaliatory post out of me nor do I believe in using the positive/negative function on this forum so neither you nor anybody here will ever get a negative from me. This is just a discussion of events for me and I figured some people would try to tell me how wrong I am. I am a peaceful person who dislikes tragedy just as much as the next person but I figure myself wise enough to not get bent out of shape whenever something bad happens this is a life lesson I have learned.
Daniel
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02:19 AM
Fastback 86 Member
Posts: 7849 From: Los Angeles, CA Registered: Sep 2003
Hmm, how bout a credible source with a butt load of references from professional sources and that has been established for many times as long as the internet has?
Good info but I still want to know why only 5 frames were shown and not the video of the Pentagon attack. Anyone?
I'm guessing because that's all the number of frames that are significant. The plane was allegedly moving at 300-400kts. The security camera may not be recording at 24 frames/second. Most security camera systems use digital compression of some sort. Bottom line - those 5 frames may be the only frames that show the plane approaching and crash.
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11:35 AM
Toddster Member
Posts: 20871 From: Roswell, Georgia Registered: May 2001
Looks like no one wants to discuss this any further. Hopefully you all are thinking now. Thats all I ask... think on your own, dont take my word for anything. Have a good tomorrow.
Good info but I still want to know why only 5 frames were shown and not the video of the Pentagon attack. Anyone?
Because the government did not even release those 5 frames. The governement has not released any video of any of the attacks, anywhere, and never said they would. The government has a standing policy that no video of government installations, anywhere, is released to the public. This isn't just the pentagon but also at all military bases and government installations worldwide. Try getting government owned video of any other installation even when it doesn't show an attack. It isn't going to happen.
Those frames just showed up one day, mostly attributed to a "leak." Conspiracy theorists try to tear them apart, but fail to point out that if they have been altered that it is just as likely (actually, more likely) that they have been altered by anti-government sources.
Ok when I meant debris I meant like full sections of the plain not small scraps, (because small scraps mean small planes, big scraps mean big planes) (edit) This was my original statement but I formaly retract it due to it's not totaly accurate at all but that wasn't necessecarily my point anyways (edit). I am focusing this discussion on the Pennsylvania, and DC crashes that don't add up to what it should have looked like. I have never seen a plane wreck that was either shot down, exploded before impact with the ground, or actually collided with the ground that still didn't have some large remaining tell-tale pieces of the plane somewhere among the wreckage. I have not found any proof that suggests otherwise. For example in both the Challenger and Columbia wrecks they still were able to find large enough pieces that the average person was able to say yeah that was most definitely from a space shuttle. For me this evidence has not been shown to make me believe that what they said hit the pentagon and a field in PA was in fact exactly what it was. Thats where it doesn't add up.
I'm ok with believing that the Government didn't do it on purpose (I would be relieved) but I do think it could be possible as terrifying as that is, if not them actually orchestrating it then them at least knowing about it. I'm not ok with the government lying and covering up stuff like this cause even though I was born as an american citizen I am entrusting them to keep my country safe and take the right actions to keep it that way. So far I can guess with more probability than not that our government is chock full of power hungry people who have less regard for things that would actually make a difference in our nation and instead focus on things that are to me the wrong actions to take to ensure such liberties. How many terrorist attacks happen in the US on a regular basis? Very Few, the last one I knew about before September 11th was the previous attacks on the Twin Towers with truck bombs. Did I think that September 11th was means for rushing into some war? No. Did they say that more attacks were inevitable unless we went to war? Yes. I think we should have had a great deal of time to actually find out what actions were the right actions to take in hunting down the correct party in the attacks, but instead George W said lets fight this probable enemy and so we did and are.
And yes I realize that I am more or less wasting my time trying to get these answers off a Fiero forum where if I was really into having to know the truth I should probably ask the government or people who actually conducted such investigations throughly enough. I do think that those who are so sure that what the media is broadcasting is the truth should keep in mind some of these other things that don't add up should be investigated and proof shown so that the government has nothing to hide behind so we can, together as a nation, be in control of our country for the better of mankind. Our constitution allows us the people to make necessary changes to our government to ensure our liberties. For example we were on the path to impeaching President Clinton for lying about a quickie in office, though our country was doing better than decent. And so far no similar action has ever been widely introduced against President bush for lying about things that are way more dangerous to our nation, and our country has with out a doubt been is some decline since his induction into office. We are getting the economy back in line but still I don't think President bush has done anything good for our nation as a result of September 11th.
If you truly care you would question our government its Most American to do so. (edit) and I still believe this (edit)
Daniel
[This message has been edited by The Poopsmith (edited 04-21-2006).]
Originally posted by The Poopsmith: Ok when I meant debris I meant like full sections of the plain not small scraps, because small scraps mean small planes, big scraps mean big planes.
You are mistaken. The size of the plane has much less to do with the size of scraps than the speed of the plane. All of the 9/11 planes hit at near max speed.
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I am focusing this discussion on the Pennsylvania, and DC crashes that don't add up to what it should have looked like.
The PA crash is undisputable. The impact crater, debris patterns, and everything else is 100% consistent with a high speed passenger jet crash. I can't even find but a couple of the most off the wall conspiracy sites that say anything about the crash, and the thing they usually bring up is a magazine that was supposedly found a few miles away. A magazine. That's it.
The DC crash is undisputable when it comes to a plane hitting the building. Other things can be discussed, but a plane definately hit the building. Not a missile. Not a hologram. People, civilians, saw the crash. They picked up pieces. One of my own childhood friends witnessed it himself.
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I have never seen a plane wreck that was either shot down, exploded before impact with the ground, or actually collided with the ground that still didn't have some large remaining tell-tale pieces of the plane somewhere among the wreckage. I have not found any proof that suggests otherwise. For example in both the Challenger and Columbia wrecks they still were able to find large enough pieces that the average person was able to say yeah that was most definitely from a space shuttle. For me this evidence has not been shown to make me believe that what they said hit the pentagon and a field in PA was in fact exactly what it was. Thats where it doesn't add up.
Go find me pictures of any high speed impacts that left large pieces. HIGH SPEED IMPACTS. The shuttle broke apart in flight which explains why larger pieces came down. If the plane had blown up by a bomb or was shot down, then large pieces would support that theory. The ABSENCE of large pieces supports the fact that the plane came apart during a high speed impact
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How many terrorist attacks happen in the US on a regular basis? Very Few, the last one I knew about before September 11th was the previous attacks on the Twin Towers with truck bombs. Did I think that September 11th was means for rushing into some war? No. Did they say that more attacks were inevitable unless we went to war? Yes. I think we should have had a great deal of time to actually find out what actions were the right actions to take in hunting down the correct party in the attacks, but instead George W said lets fight this probable enemy and so we did and are.
Then you weren't paying attention because there were numerous attacks between the two incidents.
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If you truly care you would question our government its Most American to do so. Daniel
There is a HUGE difference between questioning the government and ignoring the answers. The government HAS been questioned, they have answered on many subjects, as well as civilian professionals who have answered on their own. The conspiracy theorists such as yourself refuse to look at the answers.
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02:20 PM
PFF
System Bot
fierogtowner Member
Posts: 1610 From: Tampa, Florida, United States of America Registered: Aug 2005
Originally posted by fierogt88: "Because the government did not even release those 5 frames."
I thought Pentagon officials released those frames. Actually the Department of Defense...which is part of the US Government. Nothing significant just a correction here. If I am wrong, tell me.
Guy.. If you smash an airplane into the ground hard enough it will literally disintagrate into very small pieces. Even the engines and tires will shread into very small pieces. The shuttle did not smash directly into the ground. Instead it broke up due to aerodynamic forces then when it slowed to terminal velosity the parts simply fell at a much slower rate. Far slower than an aircraft at full power heading straight down for 2000 feet.
Just for your information a 737 crashed just outside pittsburg pa. The resulting crash left parts no bigger than a few feet by a few feet. Witnesses thought it was a "small plane" judging by the remaining debris and were stunned to find out it was actually a large comercial airliner.
Ok when I meant debris I meant like full sections of the plain not small scraps, because small scraps mean small planes, big scraps mean big planes. I am focusing this discussion on the Pennsylvania, and DC crashes that don't add up to what it should have looked like. I have never seen a plane wreck that was either shot down, exploded before impact with the ground, or actually collided with the ground that still didn't have some large remaining tell-tale pieces of the plane somewhere among the wreckage. I have not found any proof that suggests otherwise. For example in both the Challenger and Columbia wrecks they still were able to find large enough pieces that the average person was able to say yeah that was most definitely from a space shuttle. For me this evidence has not been shown to make me believe that what they said hit the pentagon and a field in PA was in fact exactly what it was. Thats where it doesn't add up.
Daniel
[This message has been edited by 84Bill (edited 04-20-2006).]
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08:38 PM
The Poopsmith Member
Posts: 1154 From: Portland, OR Registered: Mar 2005
Just because I say wheres the large wreckage that shows its a large plane doesn't mean I only believe that it must be something else if I haven't seen any large wreckage. It just prompts me to take the knowledge that non of the videos that could possibly show what happened have been shown and so "why not?". But it still boils down to that I'm not Ok with a half a$$ed government and neither should you be. I don't like people who lie and I like less, people who lie and are also in charge of my countries well being and thats not calling anyone here a lier I'm just saying I don't like poeple who lie to me.
One other question I have wondered since George W took office and got us into a war and everything, is why is the President of the United States of America also called the leader of the free world. Is that a title saying that he has some sort of command over all the countries, or is it saying that he is the leader of the free world where the free world is the United States, or is it that he's the president leading the country that will set the example for a completely free world.
These are some aircraft wrecks that deal with explosions and collisions with large objects supposedly some of these could have been at high-speeds but these are examples of what I expected to see at least in the Pennsylvania crash.
From now on if this conversation can't turn to an open minded approach or some sort of discussion where there is a share of facts to answer questions I'm going to count myself out. I'd be happy to discuss certain things but don't consider myself as a conspiracy theorist for what I have posted and don't want to run around in circles anymore trying to explain my thoughts. I would be happy to recieve maybe a one stop source to answer my questions instead of having people here trouble themselves to write alot back to my posts which seems to have been hit and miss in showing me what I want to know.
I hold no grudges and hope nobody here does either.
This is just a discussion to me and not an argument.
Daniel
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09:23 PM
The Poopsmith Member
Posts: 1154 From: Portland, OR Registered: Mar 2005
I was looking for that video of the F4 but they still say on the video that even at 500 miles per hour the wing tips survived. Now I know they didn't hit the wall with the rest of the plane but it can be assumed that it's just as possible for a much larger plane to hit the ground going that fast and still probably leave large debris behind. Do you not agree?
The wingtips survived because they didn't hit the wall
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Originally posted by The Poopsmith: I was looking for that video of the F4 but they still say on the video that even at 500 miles per hour the wing tips survived. Now I know they didn't hit the wall with the rest of the plane but it can be assumed that it's just as possible for a much larger plane to hit the ground going that fast and still probably leave large debris behind. Do you not agree?
I understand what you are getting at but I can tell you it depends on the speed and angle of impact. An aircraft that hits the ground at a low angle and low speed will leave large pieces of wreakage. On the flip side an aircraft that hits at a high speed and high angle (say 90 degrees into a wall at 500 mph) will leave very small pieces. It's an indesputable matter of physics.
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Originally posted by The Poopsmith: Just because I say wheres the large wreckage that shows its a large plane doesn't mean I only believe that it must be something else if I haven't seen any large wreckage. Daniel
[This message has been edited by 84Bill (edited 04-20-2006).]
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10:02 PM
The Poopsmith Member
Posts: 1154 From: Portland, OR Registered: Mar 2005
I have come to realize that this one discussion has taken up a lot of my time and I think it's time to move on, if the evidence is ever released won't that be a glorious day, but I'm not going to hold my breath. I'm not sorry I contributed to this discussion but I think even through trying to emphasize my point I have not really stayed on topic. I'm not usually a very political person and when I am it's usually in the company of others who share the same views but it's for me much harder to talk about it over the internet. I will however try to look up certain things that I am interested in about those crashes and September 11th to put it all together in my mind and am sure I will learn a thing or two about plane crashes and fire and I'm sure it will be interesting. But for now I think I'll keep with other interests on this forum who knows maybe I'll run across some other things here that deal with catching on fire and going fast. Let us all just hope that we won't have to live through anything similar ever again and that George W is in fact doing good things for us as a nation. Next election 2 years away maybe we should start a thread on the new candidates so we can all get better informed on who should run our country next.
Wow, I can't believe what I read. Have you no respect for those that died? I hate it when people start spouting off ideas and claims about physic that would be laughed at if seen in an elementary school science text book. Honestly, how old are you? take a class or two. watch a video that is about the engineering, not a conspiracy. PBS had a great video out on it that would answer any and all scientific/engineering questions on the tower. What gets me even more is I see several times you mention ooh, i just was thinking... i just was asking... then you finish up posting saying, maybe sometime the true evidence will be released. What bull. you have had your mind made up before you even started. So stop. I'm sorry but stuff like this erks me. grow up, think for yourself, and have some respect to those who died.
I'm sorry for the personal attack above, though it was not directed at one person in particular. I feel bad about writing something harsh like this but I found the postings extremely disrespectful of too many people, those who died, those who worked long and hard from the moment of the crashes, and those in our government.
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01:28 AM
fierogtowner Member
Posts: 1610 From: Tampa, Florida, United States of America Registered: Aug 2005
Shouldn't there be indications of wings even slightly marking the Pentagon? Of course at a high speed, the wingtips just follow in with the fuselage but the aircraft must of been flying very straight into the building, if it were angled there should've been evidence to conclude of wings hitting.
Don't be twofaced. Mean what you say and say what you mean but don't come out with guns ablazing then say you are sorry. As far as having disrespect for those who died on 9/11 I did see anyone say anything improper or disrespect them in any way. Generalities don't cut the mustard in these types of conversation so please be spacific. As far as your faith and trust in government, heh... The government will sell you down the river in a heartbeat to fulfill it's own adjenda. If you don't believe me try disagreing with it and see how far it gets you. You are a nothing, a nobody, a number, your usefulness only extends to how much you pay in taxes every year and are as expendable as toilet paper. The only thing this government is interested in is self preservation to the point of defying it's own charter. The sooner you realize this the sooner you will see the "proper" order of things. IE you mean nothing to the government.
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Originally posted by 86fierofun: I'm sorry for the personal attack above, though it was not directed at one person in particular. I feel bad about writing something harsh like this but I found the postings extremely disrespectful of too many people, those who died, those who worked long and hard from the moment of the crashes, and those in our government.
[This message has been edited by 84Bill (edited 04-21-2006).]
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06:25 AM
PFF
System Bot
The Poopsmith Member
Posts: 1154 From: Portland, OR Registered: Mar 2005
I believe I did mention that I thought differently after reading the article on how the fires played there roll in bringing down the towers. I think there is "probably" evidence out there (IE the supposed videos that could show a plane hitting the pentagon) that is more true than you or I saying this is what happened and if it's there they can show it. I do have respect for the dead and mass murder doesn't get me off so please don't think me heartless asking for any additonal proof is not in anyway disrespectful. Not that I'm challenging anybody's word here but I don't know what current September 11th investigations are going on is there a site on these, I thought the 9-11 Report put it all to rest.
I don't like it when people only skim over things they read and then make generalizations. I think if you go back and reread the things I've posted you will better understand that I never said "this info here is true" it was all ideas that were presented to me with a bit of supporting evidence that "got me thinking" thats all. And again I'm done here but felt the need to clear up this understanding so that there is no grudges or rivalries here on this great forum. Fieros are what brought us together not September 11th and I wouldn't want any body to get a bad name among us because of this thread.
I didn't skim over anything. I spent a long time reading it, then I spent a good long time reading what I wrote before i posted. I wasn't two faced. I was sorry that I felt what I said needed to be said, so I said it. The gov. isn't perfect, but they are our leaders. we elected them, so I put faith and trust in them for that reason. If they break that trust, then there are means to go about that, but anyways I wasn't talking about politics but ethics
No need to be sorry if you said what you felt needed to be said. That was my point.... you're not "truely" sorry and thats cool.
They may be your leaders and representitives but they neither lead me nor represent me. The government is my servant, not the other way around.
Ethics? How can there be ethics when one is lied to? How can you trust a government that outright lied to you? Thats like a pathetic woman standing there with a black eye saying that she still lives with a drunk and abusive husband. "No, he's not perfect but I love him and he loves me." Now theres a winner for ya.
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Originally posted by 86fierofun: I wasn't two faced. I was sorry that I felt what I said needed to be said, so I said it.
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03:58 PM
Apr 23rd, 2006
El Guapo Member
Posts: 278 From: Wernersville, PA Registered: May 2005
Has anyone here ever heard of the Northwoods Documents? Dated 13 March 1962, and recently declassified, they discuss the State Department's plans to crash planes into various high-profile structures in the US and blame it on the Cubans as a pretext to start a war. They didn't do it back then, but I'm sure some of those who origonally thought it up have some influence into what goes on in current policy. If you want a copy of the documents, PM me and I will send them to you.
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08:22 PM
Apr 24th, 2006
Silicoan86 Member
Posts: 1614 From: Savage, MN, USA Registered: May 2004
So what is the governments motive to kill thousands of its own citizens and severely damage its own economy? This is a long thread, so maybe I missed it, but the only answer I saw was because one anonymous person invested tons of money into some companies and was going to make a huge profit???? I see the suspicion, but I don't see the motive.....I must have missed that somewhere.
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03:13 AM
1986 Fiero GT Member
Posts: 3383 From: Eden, NY USA Registered: Mar 2005
All I need to say is follow the money. The economy took a hit, no big deal it will recover. The US has a long history of allowing the "enemy" to attack in order to rally the people into war. Money talks BS walks.
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Originally posted by Silicoan86: So what is the governments motive to kill thousands of its own citizens and severely damage its own economy?
Now theres a winner for ya.
