I'm keeping the ownage

Edit to add: I own page two, I own page two!!

[This message has been edited by twofatguys (edited 04-13-2006).]

I just want people to have to play by the same rules I have to. Nothing more. Pay your taxes, pay for insurance and medical bills. Feed your family.
I grew up in a small town. I went to school and knew I wasn’t going to be president. I was a realist from the start. There are a lot of dreamers in the world. Too bad those are the people you hear from most of the time.
I had a chance to go to trade school the last 2 years of high school, my mother worked in a factory and sent me to school. Granted most of it was paid for by state taxes but she did have to spend some out of pocket but most of school money was from taxes. Taxes she was paying.
I learned how to weld and I’m very good at it. Did I get a job right out of school welding? No I went to work at the same place my mother works. She still works there. I worked there for a year and saved my money. When I had enough money saved I bought a car and moved out. I welded for a year and made pretty good money, twice minimum wage. That was good money for someone only a year out of school. I then moved to Florida and let me tell you it wasn’t a land of milk and honey. I worked at temp employers, I worked along side of a lot of people, I didn’t care. I needed the job and I did what it took.
At the age of 21 I joined the Navy, stayed in for the 4 years and did very well. Got out and started welding again. I welded at one place or another for 9 years and took classes at night to learn how to work on computers. I have worked at the same place now for 7 years. it’s a great job and I get pretty good pay. I’m not going to be a millionaire but I will have enough to live on when the time comes. If something comes up unexpected I can take care of it. I can get a loan or make payments, I can do that because they know I’m not going to run off.

Now I had to do all of that by the rules, I didn’t cheat and not pay my loans off, I didn’t cheat on my taxes or not pay them all together.
That is all I am asking for, I don’t care where you come from just play by the same rules, you shouldn’t be able to just walk in and get things handed to you and not have to pay for them.
Taxes, insurance and feed your family. I’m sure I left something out but come on is it so hard to be responsible? I’m all for work permits as long as they are paying taxes and have a card and are a legal immigrant I don’t care.

Now do I care about you? NO as long as your not getting in the way of my pursuit of happiness. I don’t care what you do just follow the rules I have to.

For all of you that think its easy to post on the internet when no one knows your name.
Well my name is
Glenn “Jake” Leber
Glad to meet you. There now I’m not just some nameless person on the internet, look me up I’m in the book.

[This message has been edited by Jake_Dragon (edited 04-11-2006).]

I’m going to tell this story one more time.

When I worked on the oil rig for Cianbro in Maine here they brought in Mexican workers from across the border, put ten or so in a motel room and paid them minimum wage so Cianbro could cut the bottom line and lay of Americans.

They couldn’t even read or speak English, they couldn’t even mix paint. We had one American that mixed the paint for them and their Forman was bilingual.

Many Americans were laid off because of this.

------------------
technology is great when it works
and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't.
Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys.

[This message has been edited by 84fiero123 (edited 04-11-2006).]

quote Originally posted by 84Bill: BTW Is it yours?

No I decided I was not responsible enough to care for a child to my standards. Though I can honestly tell you I could do a damn sight better job than most people I know.

All I can say, if I hated the US like some of the ones that posted on here, Then I would keep my mouth shut and get the hell out.
Don

Pokey, I really want to know what you think about this.... pokey? puu puuh puhhh puhokey?

quote Originally posted by 84fiero123: I’m going to tell this story one more time. When I worked on the oil rig for Cianbro in Maine here they brought in Mexican workers from across the border, put ten or so in a motel room and paid them minimum wage so Cianbro could cut the bottom line and lay of Americans. They couldn’t even read or speak English, they couldn’t even mix paint. We had one American that mixed the paint for them and their Forman was bilingual. Many Americans were laid off because of this.

quote Originally posted by 84fiero123: I’m going to tell this story one more time. When I worked on the oil rig for Cianbro in Maine here they brought in Mexican workers from across the border, put ten or so in a motel room and paid them minimum wage so Cianbro could cut the bottom line and lay of Americans. They couldn’t even read or speak English, they couldn’t even mix paint. We had one American that mixed the paint for them and their Forman was bilingual. Many Americans were laid off because of this.

Sounds very extreme. I don't think I would want to work for that company or be their customer. Fact is some companys really suck. These would be the companys my buddy Wild Bill is fuming about I think.

But then again if I had to work for them I am sure glad I am Bi- lingual.

Edit to add. I posted this before I read your post Bill LOL .8:33 pm

[This message has been edited by pokeyfiero (edited 04-11-2006).]

quote Originally posted by pokeyfiero: Sounds very extreme. I don't think I would want to work for that company or be their customer. Fact is some companys really suck. These would be the companys my buddy Wild Bill is fuming about I think.

Ahh Poke.. My friend
When the moon is in the Seventh House
And Jupiter aligns with Mars
Then peace will guide the planets
And love will steer the stars

This is the dawning of the Age of Aquarius
Age of Aquarius
Aquarius! Aquarius!

Harmony and understanding
Sympathy and trust abounding
No more falsehoods or derisions
Golden living dreams of visions
Mystic crystal revelation
And the mind's true liberation
Aquarius! AquarSKIRRRRRRRRRRPPPPPTT!!!

quote But then again if I had to work for them I am sure glad I am Bi- lingual.

DAMMIT POKEY!!

O beautiful for spacious restricted skies,
For amber waves of cheap labor,
For purple smoke filled mountain majesties
Above the baren plain!

Amerika! Amerika!
God turn his back on thee,
And crown thy good corporate lackie with brotherhood
From fenced off sea to shining fenced off sea!
O beautiful for slaverys feet
Whose stern imprission'd stress
A thoroughfare for freedom beat back
Across the modern world.

Amerika! Amerika!
God spend thine dollar flew,
Confirm thy soul in self-control,
Thy liberty stripped by law.

O beautiful for heroes long dead
In liberating strife,
Who more than self their country loved,
And mercy more than life.

Amerika! Amerika!
May God thy gold be mine
Till all success be nobleness greed,
And ev'ry gain divine with good credit

O beautiful for patriot dream
That sees beyond the years
Thine alabaster cities gleam
Undimmed by human tears now stream.

Amerika! Amerika!
God shed His disgrace on thee,
And crown thy good with debt abd sorrow
From fenced in sea to shining fenced in sea.

quote Originally posted by pokeyfiero: Where are all these white workers looking for work at Jazz? They sure as hell are not around here. Have you any idea what your talking about when it comes to our local economy or are you generalizing?

They are around here!!
Please understand, the situation changes from area to area.

California is where I am and that is how it is here. I have stated before I have discovered it is not this way in other states. So for you to get personally upset is not warranted.Even if you did live here in California it still in my opion insult you unless it applied to you.
Most of my friends are white and they all work hard and pay the bills one way or another. But then that is just the company I keep.

quote There are no white workers here that are looking for work. There are no white workers working at MC Donald's or Jack in box. None drive taxis or work at car washes.Once in a while I see a carpenter or two on a job site and our local unions are choke full of yep you guessed it Jazz Mexicans!!! They work Jazz and that is the bottom line about this area. White people are to good to work these jobs. No Jazz they don't get paid less they paid the same but get twice as much done.

I'm not worried about What color the workers are, I dont think that is an issue.
In your area it may be harder to find legal workers, but, who creates that problem?
Is it the workers, or the companies?

The people that decided to be slackers created these issues. Economics created these issues. Buying walmart style created these issues.
You are correct it doesn't matter the color. It matters if they want to work or not.
I didn't say whites couldn't do it I said they won't. I don't just mean whites but it is mostly them.
I have never had a chinese guy or a persian guy apply at all. more than 99 percent that even look for a job with me have been latino. I know a lot of contractors and business men in this state. I have been around a long time. I have seen plenty of non latino workers and in all circumstances except one they would sit around while others worked. They would designate themselves driver and assume boss status on a route or job with the other workers. What can I say. It seems they feel they are better than others.

quote They don't get a cut or a bruise and cry and take the rest of the day off and the next and take up hospitals time with bullshlt ailments increasing our health care costs. It is called work ethic not as you put as slave labor.

Thanks. So I'm lazy becouse I got hurt at work and am filing for workmans comp?
What about the guy who got hurt on the same machine, with the same problem last saturday, he lost a finger, is he lazy?
They dont do anything, even when they get hurt severly becouse they are worried about getting deported if they file a claim.
They are increasing our hospital cost through other ways. Just look at hospitals in border states compared to others.
If I have recieved the correct information, isn't Californias heath system in the red becouse of Illegal immigration?

You lazy? I didn't say that. I don't know you. I am kinda proud you are insulted though it lifts my spirits a bit..You are off track of my meaning about sick leave. It is a commom thing here to get out of work for the slightest thing but I think you knew what I was reffering to.
Health care in the red? Yes I believe it is. Where have all the state taxes gone that those illegal aliens paid through phoney S.S cards? Could welfare and most of oakland and alemaeda county have to do with it also. They only sell non taxable drugs around there. Not something one reports on their income taxes. Problem is bigger than nit pik points.

quote You guys all have points and I don't disagree with the law aspect of any of it but the truth is Americans are hiding behind the real facts. We have become lazy and want more than we are worth.

I just want enough to not have to worry about how I am going to eat from day to day.

And I think you should get it since it seems you want to work for yours. Hell I see people like you as an oppertunity to make money. Hey look here this guy is a real good worker lets see if we can do something with him. There is some potential there. Maybe I put you in charge of a few other guys and give you a company truck and a cell phone. I pay for your gas and bump your wage. Now you get to be a bad guy too cause you are now the boss of people that make less than you. Now of course if you can't handle the extra work load back down you would go then I would be the bad guy by my self.

quote Bathrooms across America would be rendered useless and the filth would pile high because we won't clean it up. If you say white people will do that work the I say you are full of it. If they did the job would cease to exist because it would be viable.

I would not only clean bathrooms for a living GLADLY, I have done far worse jobs (chest deep in raw sewage shoveling "solids" into a bucket)

Come out here and set a damn example to these lazy ****s would you?

quote The problem exists for a reason. It isn't made up. No one designed it this way just to piss you ranters off. Immigrants are like water. They fill the holes. We made the holes now we should fix the problem. Work permits should be granted to workers that have sponsors and the goal should be citizenship not just make a buck and split.

We didn't make the holes, the companies that were willing to hire Illegals did.
We did. Addressed already up above a ways
A huge part of the problem is that most just make a buck and split, or just send it home to Mexico.
Given our extremely liberal majority here addressing things like this will way down a list of things that won't get done

quote I am still going to hire the hardest working people I can find as I should (that includes whites if you can find them) and I will pay them well for their work but I will not hire for affirmative action. I am not responsible for our lack of work ethic.

You keep saying you will hire the hardest workers, ect. ect. But then you turn around and say that Whites are lazy, and won't do any work? So if you had a white guy and a Mexican immigrant standing in front of you, which one would you hire? Why?

I dont mean to piss you off, and I'm really not meaning to flame you. I just want you to understand that some of your statements hurt my feelings. Some badly.
Brad

I don't condider you flaming me. I like your attitude. You have pride.
To answer your question .
White guy and a mexican in front of me who would I hire. First I would look at the way he was dressed. Then the hands and then the eyes. If I couldn't be sure from that I would hire both for a couple hours and get rid of one. If I had to bet who would go home I would bet the white guy but if I lost my bet then so be it because I am interested in working not color.
I do the same damn thing when picking a shovel at the hardware store so I don't see a difference. I want the better of the two. The color of a shovel isn't so important but then the color of a name brand does get my attention first. Around here the name brand color for hard workers is brown.

[This message has been edited by pokeyfiero (edited 04-11-2006).]

quote Originally posted by pokeyfiero: Don't be shy. You are not shy when it comes to your veiws on other races.

I like the Daytona 500 Race the best
Don

I love you guys, every last one of you!

[This message has been edited by twofatguys (edited 04-13-2006).]

quote Originally posted by edhering: Who is saying they pay taxes? **

Mmmmmmm...................

What a nerve!!

quote Originally posted by 84Bill: DAMMIT POKEY!! O beautiful for spacious restricted skies, For amber waves of cheap labor, For purple smoke filled mountain majesties Above the baren plain!

Modus Operandi: If you aren't sure what to say, then say something really strange.

Thats because fact is always stranger than fiction.

quote Originally posted by fierobear: Modus Operandi: If you aren't sure what to say, then say something really strange.

What I was getting at is why do I have to learn spanish to get a better job (managing non-english speeking types) when they should learn to english. I seem to remember a topic of discussion on multi-culturism and how it just does not work. Being bi-lingual is great but in America english IS the language. Don't wanna speek it, thats fine but don't expect to get ahead without a proper education. Learn the language, I spent several years learning it and immigrants should be "required" to do so as well. Just seems to me that pokey would have a leg up on me just because he can speek spanish.

[This message has been edited by 84Bill (edited 04-12-2006).]

quote Originally posted by pokeyfiero: Sounds very extreme. I don't think I would want to work for that company or be their customer. Fact is some companys really suck. These would be the companys my buddy Wild Bill is fuming about I think. But then again if I had to work for them I am sure glad I am Bi- lingual. Edit to add. I posted this before I read your post Bill LOL .8:33 pm

I got to pay the bills just like everyone else.

Funny thing is this is one of the biggest heavey construction company in Maine but they don't have a very good pay rate to begin with. I was lucky I worked into the last year of the project.

They even brought in Canadian Welders to avoid paying for Union welders in Maine.

------------------
technology is great when it works
and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't.
Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys.

Let's all back up a little.

I'm really wondering what the group feels should be done about this problem. I'm not really worried about us losing our "national identity" and that kind of thing IF the flow is stopped, so proper border security should be the first step. Even if that means supplementing border patrol with US Military. Seal the border and control it properly.

Next I think that if we really did come down hard on the employers hiring the illegal aliens it would cut down on the demand for them, their ability to find work, and make it much less attractive to them to come here in the first place.

Those two things are not really social problems but just technical ones that can be dealt with. The REAL social problem is what to do with the 10,000,000 illegals that are already here? Send them back? Give them amnesty? Do like some plans suggest that if you've been here for 2, 5, or some other length of time you are on the fast track to citizenship?

My gut instinct is to sent them all back. There's something inherently wrong with a system that says "OK, if you've broken the law for 2 (insert your favorite number here) years then you get away with it!!!" Realistically, though, it's going to possibly split up a lot of families and cause a lot of hardship to people that are already at the bottom end of the social ladder.

So what say you all, the collective brain of PFF? I'm very interested in what you think we SHOULD DO, not if the illegals are good workers, or will do work that we won't, or whatever, what to do now?

John Stricker

Fact is John our government want more money. The best way to get that money is through it's citizens. The ideal situation is to legalize them, get them on the books and collect the taxes due. Companies OTOH want to keep the illegal labor because it's ecconomical.

Ultimatly I don't give a rats ass about corporations but I DO want them to pay their taxes like I do. So I'm in favor of amnisty and eventual citizenship. HOWEVER it will cause a major problem with education which is seriously lacking already.

quote Originally posted by jstricker: John Stricker

quote Originally posted by jstricker: Let's all back up a little. So what say you all, the collective brain of PFF? I'm very interested in what you think we SHOULD DO.

Hmm....
There should be no amnesty. Anyone caught here illegally will be inelligible for legal immigration. Felony offense for those hiring illegal immigrants. Deportation problem all but solved. The rest of the deportation can be solved by imprisonment for a time of those caught here illegally. They can be on a work program to pay for housing and deportaion costs. The reason we have this problem is financial incentive and lack of enforcement of our laws. These two things will seal our borders as the word spreads.
English should be the national language. The only language taught in schools and spoken in the work place.
One function of government is to protect it's citizens. How is the US government protecting legal workers by allowing people in who will work for less than minimum wage ? It is driving wages down thus hurting the economy. Not only that but it is dillluting our vote. If the parties are afraid of losing the hispanic vote, what will happen when there are 12 to 15 million more elligible hispanic voters. Our national identity mayt well be in jeapordy.

It's not economicaly or constitutionally feasible at the present time to do that. Just think of all the rights to privacy that need to be violated and or the costs involved in rounding up and deporting some 11 million illegals around the US.

That money would be far better spent in constructing and manning a Berlin type wall across the boarder... then there is Canada. Not that there are illegals coming in from there (no doubt there are) but the threat of terrorists crossing from there are much higher. Even a wall of that magnitude will surly raise questions about "freedom" but in essance the makings of a Berlin wall has already begun thru the patriot act.

quote Originally posted by cliffw: There should be no amnesty. Anyone caught here illegally will be inelligible for legal immigration..

quote Originally posted by 84Bill: Thats because fact is always stranger than fiction.

Agreed. But you have to admit - it was really strange.

quote What I was getting at is why do I have to learn spanish to get a better job (managing non-english speeking types) when they should learn to english. I seem to remember a topic of discussion on multi-culturism and how it just does not work. Being bi-lingual is great but in America english IS the language. Don't wanna speek it, thats fine but don't expect to get ahead without a proper education. Learn the language, I spent several years learning it and immigrants should be "required" to do so as well. Just seems to me that pokey would have a leg up on me just because he can speek spanish.

Agreed, with an aside - the more skills you have, the more potential reward. He knows two languages, so he has an additional skill, which tends to get rewarded in this country. I believe that's the way it should be, along with having to know English and being in this country legally.

Damnit, that's TWICE in the same post I agree with you. That CAN'T be good

quote Originally posted by fierobear: Damnit, that's TWICE in the same post I agree with you. That CAN'T be good

Let me help you with that problem.

quote Agreed, with an aside - the more skills you have, the more potential reward. He knows two languages, so he has an additional skill, which tends to get rewarded in this country. I believe that's the way it should be, along with having to know English and being in this country legally.

It's not a required skill and therefor should no value in an english speeking nation. It's not up to me to learn foreign language in order to land a job in America. It would be nice for an employer to have but it should not be a requirement for the job. In short It's discrimination.

quote Originally posted by 84Bill: It's not a required skill and therefor should no value in an english speeking nation. It's not up to me to learn foreign language in order to land a job in America. It would be nice for an employer to have but it should not be a requirement for the job. In short It's discrimination.

http://ask.yahoo.com/20011107.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_in_the_United_States

If thats the case then why is english taught in schools?

quote Originally posted by pokeyfiero: http://ask.yahoo.com/20011107.html http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_in_the_United_States

quote Originally posted by pokeyfiero: http://ask.yahoo.com/20011107.html http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_in_the_United_States

Taken from your thoughtfully provided Wikipedia source:

"The United States does not have an official language; nevertheless, American English (referred to in the US as simply English) is the language used for legislation, regulations, executive orders, treaties, federal court rulings, and all other official pronouncements. Additionally, one must demonstrate an ability to read, write, and speak English to become a naturalized citizen. Many individual states and territories have also adopted English as their official language:

Alabama, Alaska, Arkansas, California, Colorado, Florida, Georgia, Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Kentucky, Massachusetts, Mississippi, Missouri, Montana, Nebraska, New Hampshire, North Carolina, North Dakota, South Carolina, South Dakota, Tennessee, the U.S. Virgin Islands, Utah, Virginia, West Virginia, and Wyoming "

The U.S. does not have an "official" language, that is true; however, English is the de facto standard. And English IS the official language of your state of California.

quote Originally posted by Formula88: Taken from your thoughtfully provided Wikipedia source: "The United States does not have an official language; nevertheless, American English (referred to in the US as simply English) is the language used for legislation, regulations, executive orders, treaties, federal court rulings, and all other official pronouncements. Additionally, one must demonstrate an ability to read, write, and speak English to become a naturalized citizen. Many individual states and territories have also adopted English as their official language: Alabama, Alaska, Arkansas, California, Colorado, Florida, Georgia, Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Kentucky, Massachusetts, Mississippi, Missouri, Montana, Nebraska, New Hampshire, North Carolina, North Dakota, South Carolina, South Dakota, Tennessee, the U.S. Virgin Islands, Utah, Virginia, West Virginia, and Wyoming " The U.S. does not have an "official" language, that is true; however, English is the de facto standard. And English IS the official language of your state of California.

Yes actually I was aware of these facts. I have done some research into this before. My rebuttle to Bill is simply that english is not some paramount language. America is by default supposed to be a diverse nation.
Cities make it a regular practice to use the areas predominent language on street signs and safety puplications .
Most of the world uses English as a basic language for airports and financial purposes but I don't see where that makes what Bill thinks is right.

If you read my post before the one that talked about union welders it was about plain old laborers and painters that were non-union.

The company replace those guys with Mexicans they brought in. Paid them minimum wage. They couldn't speak or read English. That the kind of people you really want here?

If you want to live and work here the least you can do is read and speak English. My wife's grand parents came over and immigrated and weren’t allowed to get off Elles Island or get jobs until they could.

Is that to much to ask? This is not a union issue it is about people being willing to learn the language.

Glad you think that unions are at fault for all of this countries problems fierobear but you are wrong, dead wrong. The problem is people that own companies just need a new BMW at the workers expense.

------------------
technology is great when it works
and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't.
Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys.

quote Originally posted by 84Bill: If thats the case then why is english taught in schools?

The same reason we don't practice writing on papyrus. We use paper more commonly.

quote Originally posted by pokeyfiero: Yes actually I was aware of these facts. I have done some research into this before. My rebuttle to Bill is simply that english is not some paramount language. America is by default supposed to be a diverse nation. Cities make it a regular practice to use the areas predominent language on street signs and safety puplications . Most of the world uses English as a basic language for airports and financial purposes but I don't see where that makes what Bill thinks is right.

That statues of your state of California make Bill right.
America is a diverse nation, but why don't you see the same level of multiple languages for immigrants from India, China, Korea, Africa, Germany, Poland, Russia, Japan, etc.? The point is English is the de facto standard, and in many states, it IS the official language, even if not mandated at the Federal level.

America WAS a melting pot. That meant people all coming together to assimilate into a large community that was comprised of many different backrounds. That's different than having all different groups coming here expecting to stay separate and get special treatment and accomodations. That isn't assimilating.

Separate but equal didn't work for the civil rights movement, and it won't work here.

What we have here is a problem of people who don't really want to be Americans - they just want the American lifestyle and opportunities, while holding everything else about America in disdain.

quote Originally posted by Formula88: That statues of your state of California make Bill right. America is a diverse nation, but why don't you see the same level of multiple languages for immigrants from India, China, Korea, Africa, Germany, Poland, Russia, Japan, etc.? The point is English is the de facto standard, and in many states, it IS the official language, even if not mandated at the Federal level. America WAS a melting pot. That meant people all coming together to assimilate into a large community that was comprised of many different backrounds. That's different than having all different groups coming here expecting to stay separate and get special treatment and accomodations. That isn't assimilating. Separate but equal didn't work for the civil rights movement, and it won't work here. What we have here is a problem of people who don't really want to be Americans - they just want the American lifestyle and opportunities, while holding everything else about America in disdain.

I still don't see where Bill is right and I don't see where I disagree with what you are saying.
I am not advocating any seperate but equal ideals. I agree people should learn the common language. But assimilation is not a absolute thing. It doesn't happen with the flick of a switch. Because a person doesn't speak english yet or well does not make them less of a citizen(assumming legality). It does limit them though until they are able. In this linited capacity they simply are not worth as much to an employer. A person that speaks both languages on the other hand is worth more to a employer.

Ok, but then why make the extreme allowances for Spanish speaking immigrants and not other languages?

quote Originally posted by Formula88: Ok, but then why make the extreme allowances for Spanish speaking immigrants and not other languages?

I didn't realize I had done so. Sorry that wasn't really my intention if I made it seem so. I happen to speak spanish so maybe I bias a bit.
I was actually thinking about chinese when I was talking about cities uses other languages for signs and such. Maybe that is a California thing.
Larger cities do this here. San franscisco has a huge Chinese area as does oakland. Los Angelas has a huge latino area that does this also. Many othe rcities practice multple languages on smaller scales.

So you are just basicly saying "it's more common?" Ok, I'll buy that.

Since it's just more common that would mean employers could potentialy be liable for descrimination based on language if they do not hire persons who speek other languages. Simply put a citizen denied a job based solely on language is being denied that work because english is "more common" than the one they speek.

quote Originally posted by pokeyfiero: The same reason we don't practice writing on papyrus. We use paper more commonly.

quote Originally posted by 84fiero123: Glad you think that unions are at fault for all of this countries problems fierobear but you are wrong, dead wrong. The problem is people that own companies just need a new BMW at the workers expense.

Before we go any further, have you ever owned a business?

[This message has been edited by fierobear (edited 04-12-2006).]

quote Originally posted by fierobear: Before we go any further, have you ever owned a business?

Yes

What has that to do with it.

------------------
technology is great when it works
and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't.
Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys.

quote Originally posted by 84fiero123: Yes What has that to do with it.

If you have, and made the statement you did, and still ask the above question, I doubt it would do any good to discuss it further.

I owned stock in General Motors. Still do.

When I worked there I owned more than I do now.

------------------
technology is great when it works
and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't.
Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys.