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'Girls trying to get boys in trouble.' by Patrick's Dad
Started on: 02-10-2002 12:39 PM
Replies: 43
Last post by: Fierowrecker on 02-14-2002 08:13 AM
Patrick's Dad
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Report this Post02-10-2002 12:39 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Patrick's DadClick Here to visit Patrick's Dad's HomePageSend a Private Message to Patrick's DadDirect Link to This Post
OK, I might be baiting a few people here....

Here's the story. There are three boys, one a senior in high school, and the other two juniors. They have been arrested for having sex with three 15 year old girls, also from the same high school. These contacts were repeated (e.g. not one incident) over several months, at the house of one of the boys, and were, by admission of one of the girls, mostly consensual. In MA, since age of consent is 16, all of the incidents are rape of a minor.

I'm particularly interested in the opinions of the younger members of the forum (and certain other "older" members) as to whether, at least the "consensual" sex was OK, and, as one other student put it in the topic header, one of the girls found someone with a nicer car, or just wanted to get the boys in trouble. What should happen to the boys, and what, if anything, should happen with/to the girls?

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Report this Post02-10-2002 12:45 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Mach10Send a Private Message to Mach10Direct Link to This Post
AHHHHHHHHHH!!! THUMPTHUMPThumpthumpthumpthmpthmp*SLAM*chchchcVROOOOOOMSCREEEEEEEEeeeeeeeee
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Report this Post02-10-2002 12:46 PM Click Here to See the Profile for FierowreckerClick Here to visit Fierowrecker's HomePageSend a Private Message to FierowreckerDirect Link to This Post
What!?! They were arrested??!!??
Why I thought the schools were teaching our kids to fornicate...
What, with free condoms and all, isn't the message to have sex evident???
They were just doing home work!!!

Hey Mach!
Running away won't help!

[This message has been edited by Fierowrecker (edited 02-10-2002).]

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Report this Post02-10-2002 12:55 PM Click Here to See the Profile for RaydarSend a Private Message to RaydarDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Mach10:
AHHHHHHHHHH!!! THUMPTHUMPThumpthumpthumpthmpthmp*SLAM*chchchcVROOOOOOMSCREEEEEEEEeeeeeeeee

ROFL at Mach....!!!
______________

I think the whole situation is completely absurd.
Many states have laws that state that if the sex was consentual, and there was only a few years difference between their ages, that it would not be considered rape. Or much of anything else.
At worst, I think the kids should be grounded by their parents.

When I was 17, I had a g/f who was 15.

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Report this Post02-10-2002 02:12 PM Click Here to See the Profile for FieroGalSend a Private Message to FieroGalDirect Link to This Post
ok from a girl's point of view here, probably not different from what you guys are thinking on this, as long as it was consensual, so what??? you stick 14-18 year olds in the same building and not expect anything to happen between the 14-15 yr olds and the 16-18 year olds?? that's just absurd. nothing should happen with the consensual sex accounts... but if it wasn't, and it was rape (the girls said "no", but if they didn't say anything and just went along with it... then it wan't rape).. then i can't say what should happen, a judge would have to decide probably.
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Report this Post02-10-2002 02:24 PM Click Here to See the Profile for TRiADSend a Private Message to TRiADDirect Link to This Post
Who turned them in why? If it was one of the girls, why didn't she say something sooner?

Sounds fishy. (uh, no pun...ew.)

Also, in IL, this would be statutory rape, but at 16, the victim (?) can testfy on their own behalf. So, if she was 16, and wants to say it was consentual, she can. Then it's up to the judge.

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[This message has been edited by TRiAD (edited 02-10-2002).]

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ray b
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Report this Post02-10-2002 03:09 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ray bSend a Private Message to ray bDirect Link to This Post
In Fla we JAIL 12 year olds for life BUT turn around and say 18 to be a ADULT because they are not mature enuff to think clearly!!! WTF !!!!!!
WE NEED one age for all things in all states not what ever the stupid laws are now with one age for a crime 12 to go to adult jail and 21 to drink but 16 to drive and 18 to vote and 16 for sex ONE AGE is needed for all things to be a adult!!!!
A two or three year difference is normal for boys and girls and NOT A CRIME!!!!!!

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Report this Post02-10-2002 03:28 PM Click Here to See the Profile for maryjaneSend a Private Message to maryjaneDirect Link to This Post
30 yrs ago, it would definitly NOT have been ok. (my own father would have lynched me)Today, probably near normal. However, the law/justice system won't see it that way for the 17 yr old male(senior?). His a*s is in a world of dung. The consensual part will hinge on whether the state can show that 15 is too young to be able to have the maturity/intelligence to give that consent. Who knows anymore.
Mach10, did you have to leave tire marks clean off the edge of the page? I hate scrolling right.

[This message has been edited by maryjane (edited 02-10-2002).]

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Mach10
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Report this Post02-10-2002 04:26 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Mach10Send a Private Message to Mach10Direct Link to This Post
Amazing! You guys found a topic that I won't touch with a 10ft pole

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[This message has been edited by Mach10 (edited 02-10-2002).]

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Report this Post02-10-2002 05:13 PM Click Here to See the Profile for avengador1Send a Private Message to avengador1Direct Link to This Post
The sad part is that it probably was consensual and one of the girls had her panties twisted in a knot and decided to get even. Now the guys have to be registered sexual offenders for as long as the court decides and the girls walk away scott free to do it to someone else.
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Report this Post02-10-2002 06:10 PM Click Here to See the Profile for NashcoClick Here to visit Nashco's HomePageSend a Private Message to NashcoDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by avengador1:
The sad part is that it probably was consensual and one of the girls had her panties twisted in a knot and decided to get even. Now the guys have to be registered sexual offenders for as long as the court decides and the girls walk away scott free to do it to someone else.

If it really was consensual, I am totally with avengador on this one....f'n ridiculous.

I think as long as the person isn't more than a couple years older (and under 18), that if it is consensual then it is fine. Now if it is a 24 year old with a 15 year old, that's not right. If it's a 17 year old with a 15 year old, no foul in my opinion.

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Report this Post02-10-2002 06:27 PM Click Here to See the Profile for California KidSend a Private Message to California KidDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Mach10:
AHHHHHHHHHH!!! THUMPTHUMPThumpthumpthumpthmpthmp*SLAM*chchchcVROOOOOOMSCREEEEEEEEeeeeeeeee

Picture of him leaving:


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Report this Post02-10-2002 06:44 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Mach10Send a Private Message to Mach10Direct Link to This Post
I ATE'NT GOT NO MULLET!
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Report this Post02-10-2002 07:00 PM Click Here to See the Profile for maryjaneSend a Private Message to maryjaneDirect Link to This Post
Yes he do!!
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Report this Post02-10-2002 07:19 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Mach10Send a Private Message to Mach10Direct Link to This Post
You should talk, south'rn boy!
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Report this Post02-10-2002 09:19 PM Click Here to See the Profile for KasdanSend a Private Message to KasdanDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Raydar:
When I was 17, I had a g/f who was 15.

Im 17 and I lost my virginity to a 15 year old, but that was when i was 16, and we were still having sex when i turned 17, I dont think it should matter if its agreed on, if your mature enough to make the decesion, that should be it.

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Report this Post02-10-2002 11:53 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ITB 2M4Send a Private Message to ITB 2M4Direct Link to This Post
A very similar thing happened here about 7 or 8 months ago. 4 boys, ages 17 to 18, had oral sex performed on them by a girl that was 14. She went with them willingly, one at a time, into a bedroom at a party. Her parents found out, and had the kids arrested for statutory rape. The cops said the girl admitted it was consensual. But I never saw another article in the paper on it again.

As an assistant coach for a girls high school basketball team, I constantly have to be aware of being in a classroom or office with only one of the girls. If one of them ends up being late for practice and I make her run, or if she thinks she's not getting enough playing time, she could make my life extremely miserable. That's why one of the scariest movies I think I've ever seen is Crush, with Alicia Silverstone.

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Report this Post02-11-2002 12:05 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Brandon86SESend a Private Message to Brandon86SEDirect Link to This Post
I'd call it all a grey area of the law. Back when I was in high school it was explained to us that Canada has a 2 year rule for adolescents. Meaning 17 or 16 to 15 would be fine. The real irony comes in at 18. Once you're considered an adult it all changes. You can have sex with any other adult you want, but not your 17 year old girlfriend, even if she's just a couple months younger and you'd been together for years. Overall, I do my best to stick to the 2 year rule. I've had gf's older than me, and my most recent one was 17 when we were together (a period when I was 18 and 19). Personally, I don't see anything wrong with that, except all the razzing I got from my college buddies.

Brandon

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Report this Post02-11-2002 12:26 AM Click Here to See the Profile for rogergarrisonSend a Private Message to rogergarrisonDirect Link to This Post
MMMMMMMMM, well I like the 2 year rule myself for ages under 18, makes sense if its consentual. If the girl changes her mind and wants to call it rape, let the court work it out. I wonder what would happen if a guy under 16 had sex with a 18 yo girl and claimed she forced or blackmailed him into it? Same rules apply?

Over 18, and with consent of course, alls fair game. Some girls prefer us older guys, usually because of the way we treat them. I myself very rarely ever go out anywhere with anyone over 25. I dont date that much, but everyone ends up happy when I do. And no, that doesnt mean that any sex has to be involved either, 2 people can have fun without jumping in the sack. Believe it or not.

[This message has been edited by rogergarrison (edited 02-11-2002).]

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Report this Post02-11-2002 02:50 AM   Send a Private Message to rogergarrisonDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Mach10:
I ATE'NT GOT NO MULLET!

business in the front, party in the back only way to go

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Report this Post02-11-2002 06:01 AM Click Here to See the Profile for artherdClick Here to visit artherd's HomePageSend a Private Message to artherdDirect Link to This Post
Roger, you never cease to amaze me


Best!
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quote
Originally posted by rogergarrison:
2 people can have fun without jumping in the sack. Believe it or not.

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Report this Post02-11-2002 08:22 AM Click Here to See the Profile for SpringtymeSend a Private Message to SpringtymeDirect Link to This Post
When I was 15 I lost my virginity to a 20 year old. (I always did like the older guys better) Now I'm 18 and dating a 24, almost 25 year old. Age doesn't matter to me (as you can probably tell) as long as both the parties are mature enoguh to stick around if something were to happen (i.e. get pregnant)

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Report this Post02-11-2002 08:24 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Zoom88Click Here to visit Zoom88's HomePageSend a Private Message to Zoom88Direct Link to This Post
If we all followed the word of God....this kinda of thing would never happen. But unfortunately their are fewer and fewer Christians. Seems no one wants to change their lifes for God anymore...it will be a sad time come judgement day.....
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Report this Post02-11-2002 09:16 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Patrick's DadClick Here to visit Patrick's Dad's HomePageSend a Private Message to Patrick's DadDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Fierowrecker:
What!?! They were arrested??!!??
Why I thought the schools were teaching our kids to fornicate...
What, with free condoms and all, isn't the message to have sex evident???
They were just doing home work!!![/SIZE]

This was, essentially, the messge that I sent to the editor of the regional paper. The Boston Globe (owned by the NY Times) is jumping all over this story, while they cared not that teachers were bringing kids as young as 11yo to a government funded "seminar" at Tufts University to teach them "fisting" and other fun stuff.

We only reap what we sow....

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Report this Post02-11-2002 10:34 AM Click Here to See the Profile for DaRkLoRDSend a Private Message to DaRkLoRDDirect Link to This Post
I honestly don't understand a society where killing (hunting..) is perfectly fine, yet as soon as sex is involved, people get all upset....
that's totally f*cked up if you ask me... I don't think the government should have anything at all do to with people's personal lives.

it sickens me how people get so freaked out about sex, in a society where violence and death is considered ENTERTAINMENT.

just for the record.. IMHO "rape" is unconsensual, forced sexual activity. I couldn't care less what the age difference is (if it's actually a child, that's different.. but 15 years old is NOT a child.) as long as both people are willing.. this case is total BS.

if I ever came across a 25 year old and a 15 year old, and they were both willingly with each other, I wouldn't care. but if I came across someone literally raping a girl... I'd step in and help.. and just to relate to my previous comments about killing... I might defend an innocent animal too. The only time I would intentionally kill an animal is if it was attacking me or someone else, and the only time I would ever stand by and let someone else kill an animal, is if they were starving and needed food.

killing an animal for fun, IMHO, is murder.. and I'd react to that the same way as if it was a kid being murdered.... that's why I stay away from hunting areas, and don't own a gun.... sorry for getting off-topic.

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Steve Normington
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Report this Post02-11-2002 10:56 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Steve NormingtonSend a Private Message to Steve NormingtonDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by rogergarrison:
I wonder what would happen if a guy under 16 had sex with a 18 yo girl and claimed she forced or blackmailed him into it? Same rules apply?

Unless there is a large age difference, it usually won't be prosecuted. The reasoning is that since boys can't get pregnant, no harm, no foul.
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Report this Post02-11-2002 11:10 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Gold-86SESend a Private Message to Gold-86SEDirect Link to This Post

I'll give my opinion: This is a perfect case for keeping it in your pants.

Morality aside, so forget about the morals, just use a thought process instead of feelings and desires.

The fact of the situation is this: if you keep your privates private until marriage and true commitment, the changes of a girl (or a guy for that matter) turning vengeful on you and using sex as the tool to devistate your life goes next to zero.

The actual ability to have sex, and to reach orgasm, does not automatically give the person the ability to handle the emotional ramifications of their decision, especially a younger teen (about 15).

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Report this Post02-11-2002 11:32 AM Click Here to See the Profile for FieroMontrealSend a Private Message to FieroMontrealDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Brandon86SE:
I'd call it all a grey area of the law. Back when I was in high school it was explained to us that Canada has a 2 year rule for adolescents. Meaning 17 or 16 to 15 would be fine. The real irony comes in at 18. Once you're considered an adult it all changes.


Well.. I'm in Quebec.. (ya know.. that different part of Canada, ROFLMAO).. anyways.. There is no 2 year rule here... Here we have like a 4 year rule and it doesnt matter if one of them is an adult.. as long as the ain't more then 4 years apart. soo.. an 18/14 is ok and 21/17 is ok... heh..

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Report this Post02-11-2002 11:34 AM Click Here to See the Profile for ray bSend a Private Message to ray bDirect Link to This Post
THIS [sex] is where the THUMPERS are as wrong as wrong canbe JUST SAY NO never ever works!!!!!!!!
and the gods laws say 13 to be a adult!!!!!
ask any JEW!!!!!!!!!!

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Report this Post02-11-2002 12:19 PM Click Here to See the Profile for DaRkLoRDSend a Private Message to DaRkLoRDDirect Link to This Post
there used to be an art teacher at my school, he was a total d*ck.. anyway, for some reason, the girls were ALWAYS flirting with him, etc.. (he wasn't young either, early 50s...) anyway, I don't know the whole story.. but the basics were, one of the girls who was always hanging around him, flirting with him, etc.. managed to seduce him. (most of them had reputations for being sluts..) anyway, afterwards they went to the cops, and he was arrested and put into prison. I don't have a ton of sympathy for him, cause the guy's an a$$hole who was rarely nice to any of us... but still, it wasn't fair what they did to him. he's out of prison now, but has had his teaching license revoked and is still on probation I think.
the way the local newspaper wrote it up though, you'd think he beat up the girl and raped her. absolute bull$hit, they didn't see how these girls were always acting around him.....

another similar story.. a guy my sister knows, was charged with rape because a girl that liked him, whom he didn't like, wanted to get back at him when he wouldn't go out with her. nothing happened between them, she just wanted him to get in trouble. He eventually cleared his name, but it's pretty sad when a girl would do that because a guy didn't like her.

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Report this Post02-11-2002 08:02 PM Click Here to See the Profile for louSend a Private Message to louDirect Link to This Post
Rape: clear and simple. If a 13 year old and a 14 year old have a duel with real guns and one of them kills the other it is still murder: clear and simple. Age DOES matter when it comes to consensual sex! For those of you guys that don’t want to go to jail for raping a minor: keep it in your pants! Even though it may be consensual and you may both be the same age it is still RAPE by law and you can be prosecuted. In today’s world of Aids sex can be a death sentence.
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Report this Post02-12-2002 01:57 AM Click Here to See the Profile for ITB 2M4Send a Private Message to ITB 2M4Direct Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by ray b:
THIS [sex] is where the THUMPERS are as wrong as wrong canbe JUST SAY NO never ever works!!!!!!!!
and the gods laws say 13 to be a adult!!!!!
ask any JEW!!!!!!!!!!

So, are you saying that if those boys would have just said no, they'd be in the same situation? I'm really trying to figure out what you're trying to say there...

As for the 13 thing, many people believe Mary was around this age when she went off to be married to Joseph. Most people at that time were living something like 40 years at the most, so I could see how you would need to marry earlier. But as far as a law? I would speculate that her dad gave her hand in marriage rather than her deciding to get married.

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Report this Post02-12-2002 03:49 AM Click Here to See the Profile for FierowreckerClick Here to visit Fierowrecker's HomePageSend a Private Message to FierowreckerDirect Link to This Post
Hey Lou!
I kinda agree with you, but both participants were under age, so both should be arested, not just the boys...

Or are only the boys acountable, even though they are under age???

I was always told that girls were more mature when they were young, perhaps they should be held responsible...

Or did some young people make a bad choice? And now the legal system is going to fu(k up everyones life...

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Report this Post02-12-2002 04:02 AM Click Here to See the Profile for FierowreckerClick Here to visit Fierowrecker's HomePageSend a Private Message to FierowreckerDirect Link to This Post

Fierowrecker

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Member since Mar 2001
 
quote
Originally posted by DaRkLoRD:
I honestly don't understand a society where killing (hunting..) is perfectly fine, yet as soon as sex is involved, people get all upset....
that's totally f*cked up if you ask me... I don't think the government should have anything at all do to with people's personal lives.
and just to relate to my previous comments about killing... I might defend an innocent animal too. The only time I would intentionally kill an animal is if it was attacking me or someone else, and the only time I would ever stand by and let someone else kill an animal, is if they were starving and needed food.

killing an animal for fun, IMHO, is murder.. and I'd react to that the same way as if it was a kid being murdered.... that's why I stay away from hunting areas, and don't own a gun.... sorry for getting off-topic.

Hey Darklord...
Your ideas about hunting are wacked...
Sure, an animal may die, but the hunter faces mixed emotions about it...
There is the elation for 'getting the buck', but he also faces the sadness that an animal had to die...
And anyone who says they don't feel sad about having killed an animal, is lieing...
I would agree with you, if the animal died and served no other purpose, but animals that are hunted, are used for food...

Poaching is another story...
It used to be called market hunting, where animals were killed in large numbers to feed the cities...
But that practice has been outlawed in most countries...
Poaching of wildlife for the Asian markets still continues, though...
Bears in America are being killed for their claws and gall bladders, the rest is left to rot...
But they are not killed for fun, they are killed for MONEY...

Even in Africa, elephants are hunted and killed on a regular basis, and the meat is sold to the people there...
If they did not regulate the population of the elephant heards, there would not be enough food for them...

Or should we not hunt at all, like we have stopped hunting racoon here in Michigan, and let the populations explode, have coons eating our food crops, invading our cities, getting into our garbage, spreading rabies, dieing from starvation, and other wonderful, natural, processes?

Gotta ask, are you a vegatarian?

So you don't eat meat, don't wear leather (tennies included), and don't own pets...

Perhaps you shouldn't use gas and oil, as those are from animal byproducts too...

And sence electricity can be derived from oil/gas, perhaps you shouldn't use that ether...

Or is it OK to kill cows, as they serve no other useful purpose, and make wonderful cheese burgers?

Have you ever watched how they slaughter cows? You should, then watch how a deer meets it's end...
I choose to eat the deer, it never knew what hit it... A cow can watch it's sisters dieing one by one as it gets closer and closer to the man with the gun...

Course, when I had my pigs slaughtered, I took them in one at a time...
crash...

[This message has been edited by Fierowrecker (edited 02-12-2002).]

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DaRkLoRD
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Report this Post02-12-2002 12:27 PM Click Here to See the Profile for DaRkLoRDSend a Private Message to DaRkLoRDDirect Link to This Post
I'm not a vegetarian, though I could be if I wanted to, I rarely eat meat. as for my electricity, all my electricity is provided by a canadian nuclear plant... which is also where I work. they're not as bad as many environmentalists proclaim... at least the canadian ones.

if I had a choice of any source of meat, I would choose cloned meat... the science to grow complete organs and complete creatures, is not yet perfect.. but the technology to grow masses of a single type of cell, such as muscle tissue, does work...
mmm... meat cubes anyone?

but anyway, if I came across someone hunting that was not doing it for necessary food, or out of self defense, I WOULD treat it as murder, and I'm sorry if any of the hunters on here take offense to that.

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lou
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Report this Post02-13-2002 08:54 AM Click Here to See the Profile for louSend a Private Message to louDirect Link to This Post
Fierowrecker
Notice how you used the term “boys and girls”. This is correct for after all they are children playing like adults. Both should be held accountable, however in our society all is not equal between the sexes and the males are often blamed for initiating sex acts while the females are view as victims. Unfair? Of course! But the more reason for males to be careful and aware that they can and maybe be held responsible in a court of law not to mention morally as well. No will say why was she there? Why didn’t she use common sense? What is an underage girl doing alone and unsupervised with a boy? Lest not forget where were the parents and why did they did not see this coming? All this does not change the fact that males are perceived as the one that are more sexually aggressive than females and are more often held liable. For this reason the male is expected to use better judgment. I think that if parents were doing their jobs properly these things would be far less common. In the mean time we have be aware of the laws that we allow our legislators to make, especially when they are interpreted in a biased manner.
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DaRkLoRD
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Report this Post02-13-2002 10:19 AM Click Here to See the Profile for DaRkLoRDSend a Private Message to DaRkLoRDDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by lou:
What is an underage girl doing alone and unsupervised with a boy?

what, you think all kids should have full time adult supervision until they're 18???

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Patrick's Dad
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Report this Post02-13-2002 10:34 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Patrick's DadClick Here to visit Patrick's Dad's HomePageSend a Private Message to Patrick's DadDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by DaRkLoRD:
what, you think all kids should have full time adult supervision until they're 18???

Physically, that's impossible, but I'd like to think that my son (and my daughter, as well) carry with them what I've taught them, always.

These incidents were carried out over several months at the same house. Where were the parents of that boy?

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Report this Post02-13-2002 11:40 AM Click Here to See the Profile for louSend a Private Message to louDirect Link to This Post
I think that if you want your children to be responsible adults you have to honestly evaluate their ability to act responsibly. If that means supervising them until they can become responsable and considerate adults then that is what should be done. Age does not determine adulthood, behavior does. The job of parenting is only over when you die, children only relalize this after they too become parents. In between they want to have the freedom to live as adults but seldom do they think out the consequences of their actions. Anyone can make a mistake, the question here is why should they not be responsible for the mistakes they make?

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JSocha
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Report this Post02-13-2002 12:23 PM Click Here to See the Profile for JSochaSend a Private Message to JSochaDirect Link to This Post
Sticky! Sticky! Sticky! Not an easy answer...herewith...just my perspective.

First of all, we all know, as hopefully we went through it at one time ourselves, that we were curious at one time as well (guys and girls) about how things work.

How many of us, especially after the nervousness went away, ever said "I didn't like it!" only to do it again and again and again and again and...thereafter? Hmmmph!

Hormones affect on our sexual desires and drive is in one way or another. And women can be just as agressive or more so then a man. This philosphy that only men pursue sexual activity for "our" pleasure is . Women want to experience this pleasure as well, because the hormonal drive is there.

We can only work on teaching our children the philosphy of abstinance and the reasons why and the dangers associated with premarital sex at a young age. Thereafter, it is their bodies, their "raging" hormones and their "drive" that will determine.

I can't answer for these kids, what should or could happen as it is a confusing issue. I've seen kids that were more mature with common sense at 12 then an equivelant individual at 42.

My wife finds me more mature and "self" driven at my age (35) then most men at or above her age (40). I'm independent. My family/parents always want to help, but I work it out on my own.

Men at my wife's age though and above still want their mommy's t*t to suck on, suck their thumbs while holding mommy's hand and have mommy wipe their backsides after they take a dump.

Mommy's Boy!

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"The PRE10DR"

PS Mach10? WAIT UP!

[This message has been edited by JSocha (edited 02-13-2002).]

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