quote Originally posted by Ken Wittlief: they would either be at Disney World, or in the Virgin Islands for the winter. :c)

ESPECIALY AT this time of year, why anyone stays in the land of ice and snow, year round is a great mystery to me.
what is the greater sin to be without a fiero for months or expose a fiero to ice and snow and roadsalt????

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Question wonder and be wierd

yes frustrating - isnt it? you have no denomintaion to attack or discredit, so you are reduced to discussing actual issues and facts

unless you want to attack and discredit the bible itself.

so here you are, left to nothing but name calling and a no-brainer approach to understanding God.

Looks like 1 billion is the majic number for you - so I guess it will be one big happy party up there with the catholics, the muslims and the hindus (if they can find 100 million more followers)

how is it that someone elses religious beliefs are ok to discuss publically, or their non religious beliefs, but not the RC church?!

If you want to know why your church is the one that takes all the heat, its because you are the ones responsible for most of the atrocities and horrors that have been done in the name of Jesus over the centuries - of all the Christian demonimations, you have the darkest history.

So I find it hypocritical of you to question the beliefs of athiests and Wicans publically, but then to be offended when someone questions the history of your church.

Voytek; I do find it disconcerting that someone claiming to be a Christian, and a member of "the one true church" can suddenly claim that;

quote "...as long as they follow their religion and their commandments, they are just as likely to end up in heaven as any of us..."

Not a flame, just curious how you can stand up for your belief so vehemently one minute, and degrade to Deism the next. Since when did the Catholic church declare "It's not WHAT you believe, as long as you do"?!

Ken;

quote "...but I cant explain or rationalize the history, conduct, or beliefs of the Catholic church, and neither can you..."

well neither can I, but..

When you guys both degrade to namecalling and personal attacks, it looks bad on all of us (this is why some of the "lurkers" in this thread have voiced up "no one can bash any one else's beliefs"...

It looks bad on both of you, and on all of us.

hey Im not the one who is calling people a$$holes and calling anyones post a bunch of Kwrap

or pinning people as belonging to one denomintaion or another

or calling pity on anyone.

I am stating postions, concepts, historical facts, and personal beliefs - Im not calling anyone names

you must be thinking of two other guys.

quote Originally posted by ray b: ESPECIALY AT this time of year, why anyone stays in the land of ice and snow, year round is a great mystery to me. what is the greater sin to be without a fiero for months or expose a fiero to ice and snow and roadsalt????

I've been in WI for about 9 years now (born and raised in AL). I thought the same thing at first, but it grows on you. Of course it's only Nov. now, I still tend to ask myself what I'm doing here a few times in Jan. and Feb. It is nice to be able to walk outside in June or July without melting though.

Winter before last I only drove it on nice days, last winter I drove it most days. This year I hope to use the down time to do some work on it.

Ken, are you blind or just ignorant? Yeah, you did draw me into name calling after your purposely sarcastic remarks. Go back and read, will ya? You DO know what READ means, don't you?

There is a BIG difference between discussing religious beliefs (which is how all this started) and attacking one's beliefs (which is what you brought in).

There is a lot of hate spewing from your last post. Not a very good image for an exemplary Christian man. Attrocities? To a larger or lesser extent, many have committed them. Have you ever come across the part in the Bible that says forgive and forget? Apparently not. Keep studying.

quote yes frustrating - isnt it? you have no denomintaion to attack or discredit, so you are reduced to discussing actual issues and facts

Let me rephrase that: it's convenient and chicken-$hit not to associate yourself with anyone. Yes, you got it. It is frustrating.

quote So I find it hypocritical of you to question the beliefs of athiests and Wicans publically, but then to be offended when someone questions the history of your church.

I don't so much question atheists, I debate with them, just like most people here. Wicans? I don't even know who they are (forgive me, English is my 3rd language).
You should look up the meaning of the word hypocrisy.

Triad - just to clarify. There is not a single post of mine that says non-Christians are wrong and, unless they're Catholic, they're going to hell. In fact, the Catholic church (nowadays, anyway) doesn't even touch on the subject of other religions or denominations. Don't come back telling me otherwise - I've been with the church for 27 years of my life, in 3 different countries. My parents have been deeply involved at one point. I know what the church preaches. No flames Triad, just a defense.

Ken and Triad You make me proud to be your brother in christ.

Your doing a wonderful job of making people think.

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Joe

ok I did go back to page one. JSosha was the first one to bring up the RC church, not me.

If you are spewing anger and namecalling, please dont place that on me and say I pulled you into it. The words that come out of your mouth reveals your inner nature, not mine.

Tonight at midnight, a Satan worshipping ritual shall be held here for the first time on the forum.

Please bring your own human sacrifice to worship as well as sacrifice this evening.

This should be a screaming good time.

All prayers unwelcome.

Playing backwards of any Satanic based records welcome. Except Air Supply . Last time "I'm All Out of Love" was played backwards, several hundred members went to walk for the "Gay Rights Movement" with their human sacrafices.

It was a sad evening that night and Louy, now Louise, is no longer welcome...

Anyways, our guest speaker tonight will be Lucifer.

Topic of discussion: "Converting the Masses"

Dress Code this evening: Dark robes with Pentagrams.

An 0rgy dance shall follow in the pit of pleasure and despair.

I started looking from page one.

will there be any chicks at your sacrfice tonight?

satanist get all the hot babes.

Nice try Ken. You actually started this in another thread, where I asked you to take it to PM. Then you continued here. Looks like lies are also a part of your version of the Bibile. No wonder people like RayB think the Bible is a fairy tale. It is unfortunate that Christianity is your tool for hate.

Oh, you've used the word 'namecalling' more than a handful. It seems to be your only defense. It's too bad a person calling themselves a true Christian gets so hung up on little things like that.

JSocha - funny stuff. I don't know what you posted and where. I really don't care to draw anyone else into this.

quote Originally posted by Ken Wittlief: will there be any chicks at your sacrfice tonight? satanist get all the hot babes.

Could be...could be...

But...do you realize just how hard it is to find a Virgin these days for the Virgin Sacrifices at one of these ceremonies that I wish and want to hold in my bedroom on a regular basis?

Sacrificing a virgin..Tsk Tsk...what a wste

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My Fiero | Fiero Accessories

**disclaimer** if you don't like what I have to say, please just ignore it.. I'm just saying this as something to think about, nothing more. Now.. onto the book.

1. I believe that the "big bang" happened.. but I don't know how, or why.
2. I believe the Pacific ocean was formed when a huge mass struck the earth billions of years ago, gouging out a deep hole which became filled with water from the surrounding areas, leaving a solid land mass on the opposite side (called Pangea), and that this broke apart in what we call continental drift. some of the material removed from the earth reformed in orbit to become our moon. I'm neither an astronomer, a geologist, or anything like that, this is just my own speculation.
3. I believe all of the "miraculous" feats performed millenia ago could be explained by modern science.. the problem? modern science wasn't around then.. at least not human technology anyways.
4. many ancient sites that are still standing, are essentially an engineering mystery. some of the construction at giza, baalbek, teotihaucican(sp?) etc would require technology that WE consider modern... some of the cuts in the stone, are so precise that it wasn't even possible to match that level of quality until the middle part of this century.
5. There is evidence of a massive flood, tens of thousands of years ago. there is a wealth of data on the Sphinx, that proves it was weathered by water erosion, and there hasn't been water in egypt for over 10,000 years.
6. the ark of the covenant.. a wooden box lined inside and out with gold, with 2 cherubs on top facing each other... whatever other purpose it had, it is also easily recognizable as a large leyden jar capacitor.. if it was placed in an area of high static charge (near the top of the great pyramid has been shown to collect quite a charge) it will charge up, and anyone who touches it will receive a nasty shock.
7. if God is everywhere, why did he need to descend to mt. sinai? the accounts I've read sound more like a rocket powered landing craft than an omnipotent being.
8. Sumerian tablets (I haven't got any scanned from books, but I can probably find some if I really try.) show many things, one of which is a woman holding a flask with a baby in it.. either they had a taste for babyjuice.. or they were aware of human cloning and/or in-vitro fertilization. I wouldn't be surprised by that at all.. is it really so inconceivable that there was a prior civilization on this planet that was all but wiped out by a global catastrophe, leaving only ruins of their greatest cities & structures, and a few pockets of refugees left scattered across the globe, who then had to rebuild their society over tens of thousands of years?
9. ruins have been found in the middle east, that are believed to be what's left of sodom and gomorrah. there are traces of radioactivity there as well. fission by-products... why did god need nuclear fission to "smite" 2 cities?

I'm not trying to dismiss the idea of a supreme creator, nor a "guiding force" that controls the universe.. I've asked for advice, and often receive it. I've asked for a sign as to what my actions should be, and I've received some that were so unlikely that they couldn't have been coincidences. I firmly believe in an afterlife, that we have souls, etc. and that we must deal with the repercussions of our living actions after we die. My point of writing all this, is that there are alternative explanations for some of the biblical stories, other than "it happened exactly as it's written" and "it's all BS"

I hope someday a middle ground can be found, but I doubt it will happen any time soon. I hope I've given you something to think about, but at the same time, I hope people won't think I'm *too* weird for having non-traditional beliefs. I have many friends who are devoted christians, many friends who are devoted athiests, and many friends who are in other places on the "religious spectrum". I don't really fit in anywhere, nor am I trying to, I just want to try to relate to
others.

thanks for reading this.

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steve@fieroproject.com
http://www.fieroproject.com

quote Originally posted by JSocha: Could be...could be... But...do you realize just how hard it is to find a Virgin these days for the Virgin Sacrifices at one of these ceremonies that I wish and want to hold in my bedroom on a regular basis?

DOESN'T SATAN EXPECT YOU TO LIE ABOUT THE VIRGIN????
IF SATAN IS EVERYWHERE WERE ARE HIS CHURCHS??? AND WHY IS HE NOT ON TV???? LIKE THE SEND MONEY TO US FOR GOD FOLKES ARE????

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Question wonder and be wierd

DOESN'T SATAN EXPECT YOU TO LIE ABOUT THE VIRGIN????
That comes afterwards or after the deflowering...you know...the "I'm still a Virgin" lie.

IF SATAN IS EVERYWHERE WERE ARE HIS CHURCHS???
With threads like this, do you think they really want to come out and talk about their religion let alone let anybody know where the evening sacrifices will be held? Ray, what time do you want us all over at your place this weekend? j/k Man!

AND WHY IS HE NOT ON TV???? LIKE THE SEND MONEY TO US FOR GOD FOLKES ARE????
They are! They are known as Infomercials. And we all know they are EVIL.

quote Originally posted by Voytek: Nice try Ken. You actually started this in another thread, where I asked you to take it to PM. Then you continued here. Looks like lies are also a part of your version of the Bibile. No wonder people like RayB think the Bible is a fairy tale. It is unfortunate that Christianity is your tool for hate. Oh, you've used the word 'namecalling' more than a handful. It seems to be your only defense. It's too bad a person calling themselves a true Christian gets so hung up on little things like that.

I guess little things like truth, realitiy and time are not a part of your nature.

in this thread Jsocha brought up RCs on 11-20-2001 at 10:43AM and I replied to his comment at 10:59 AM

then in the 'something to thing about' thread on 11-20-2001 at 1:27 PM Voytek found it was not sufficent to discuss Christianity in general, and brought the RC church into the argument there, saying it was founded by Peter.

at 1:35PM I called him on that - using sarcasm to point out how ridiculous that is.

So I am correct 1:35PM is after 10:43AM. I didnt bring it up first.

Looking back through both threads I notice that several people have challenged RC doctrines and beliefs, I've only called you on the most obvious ones. For some reason instead of discussing the issues at hand, you launch into a diatribe that I must be a JW

?!

Im not interested in debating the differences between the RC church and the other christian denominations, but on almost every post you bring another point of contention to the forum, almost as if you have a list and you are slipping them in one by one.

So ok - you win - I am a chicken$hit A$$hole liar who has no debating skills as anyone can plainly see from reading any of my 1200+ posts.

I also have no knowledge of the bible because I can only memorize it, but I dont understand - cause I cant read - I am both blind and ignorant - and I dont play nice with others.

I also smell bad, im funny looking, and I have a tendency to pick my nose and eat my boogers, unless someone is watching me, then I flick them in their direction.

go ahead and hurl as many insults my way as you want - that doesnt change the validity of any of my posts. The truth is the truth - it doesnt matter who speaks it or what wall its written on.

Darklord - interesting stuff. That's the kind of stuff that I like to think about. Especially the part about the ancient advanced civilization that got wiped out. I don't see why not. And for some reason, I'd be more apt to buy that as an explanation then God did this... God did that... written in a book.

nothing like a way different opinion to stop a thread in it's tracks, huh?

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steve@fieroproject.com
http://www.fieroproject.com

263posts!!!! holy sh*Tttt!

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'88 coupe, 5 speed;
Have you seen my website yet?
Http://www.LithiumEffects/pheageysfeiro
"The car formaly know as, and has now reverted back to being known as, Pheagey's Fiero."

Darklord,
Very interesting post.

I don't think that the Bible and science are mutually exclusive.
I believe that if people on both sides of the argument were not so polarized, and were willing to concede that maybe, sometime in the past, some events could have been misinterpreted, or some scientific calculation could have been marginally (or worse) in error, that one side of the discussion could actually be used to support the other.
Mankind basically consists of intelligent, thinking, reasoning creatures, who have been studying "stuff" down through the ages. I just have trouble believing that either side is completely wrong. There has to be a middle ground somewhere.

It's late. Am I making any sense?

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Raydar

From the Department of Redundancy Department.

Darklord, very interesting reading. I won't begin to approach the points, cause that's not what you posted them for...but they were very well articulated.

So, when's this food fight?!

Darklord,

Actually, your views don't seem to be that different from mine. Really interesting since I'd be willing to bet our backgrounds are very different.

Pretty similar beliefs here and could even elaborate on much of it. But won't in this thread because this thread is about Harry Potter. Right?

If anyone wants to talk about this with me on email or PM, please feel free to do so, I love discussing this stuff!

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steve@fieroproject.com
http://www.fieroproject.com

the only point I think sciece has proven wrong in your post is about the moon - I seem to remember the moon rocks they brought back indicated the moon is different enough in composition that most likely it was NOT once part of the earth - I could be wrong on that.

One thing about the moon that fascintates me is that its spin and its orbit are perfectly synchronized so that one side always faces the earth - someone gave an explaination for this once but it didnt sound right - Since the moon is in orbit it is essentially 'freefalling' and it should be free to spin in any direction - the probability of it being synchronized like that at random is astronomical.

I think one scientific explaination for how man got here is that we lived on another planet in another starsystem 'originally' and that we have been seeding life throughout the universe.

If we are doing this, I can see reasons why we would dissolve contact with the other planets we came from, and force humanity on this planet to start from scratch with regards to technology - partly as a way to burn the bridge as it were, so if things became difficult we wouldnt go running back to our parent planet with our tail between our legs, and partly because life seems to strive and grow when it faces the most challenges.

I have mentioned in other threads there is a great deal of scientific evidence now that life most likely will NOT 'happen' at random on most planets and there is a good chance that it will only happen on one planet in the whole galaxy.

I wonder, if scientist take the assuption that humans seeded life on earth at some point in the past, and then take another look at things, I wonder what conclusions they would come to.

EIGHT!

Actually, Ken, I didn't call you a liar.
I also sent Ken a private e-mail saying I'd like to end this because it's pointless and obvious that we can't change each other's mind. I also said that I'm sorry that it came to name calling - he got the best of me. I also said that at one point, I've had a deep respect for him and his convictions. No response from Ken. That respect is completely gone now, looking at your last reply to me - very, very immature.

Nice. This coming from a man at least twice my age. No wonder young people have no respect for the elders. I have nothing further to say to you, Ken.

DarkLord - interesting points. I agree with Raydar that there must be a middle ground. For example, many scientists believe in the thoeory of evolution, discarding God completely out of the picture. At the same time, many religious groups discard evolution and believe all was created by God.

I believe that there is truth to both. First, God had his hand in the creation of the world. Second, people did change with time (physically and mentally, of course). There is no doubt about it. Old skeletons found today definitely point to the fact that humans were always humans but they also suggest that people did look different. This is just an example.

Middle ground? Definitely.

JSocha - You MISSED IT!

[This message has been edited by Voytek (edited 11-28-2001).]

quote Originally posted by Voytek: ...For example, many scientists believe in the thoeory of evolution, discarding God completely out of the picture. At the same time, many religious groups discard evolution and believe all was created by God...

I can only speak for myself, but I've often wondered is God simply USED evolution as His way of accomplishing Creation...

We know the "days" in the Bible during Creation may not have been "days", and the He can pretty much do anything He wants, however He wants to do it. The theory of Evolution follows the same steps as Creationism, just different time periods and of course, the lack of God, but they're VERY similar in the "order" in which they occurred.

Could Science be proving Creation?
Middle ground, indeed.

Remember the statement in "Field of Dreams" with Kevin Costner?

Herewith modified: "Post it and page 8 will come!"

I didn't recall any geological data on the moon, so as I said, pure speculation. There's still enough "weird" about the moon to suggest it's not a totally natural sattelite of ours, for one thing it's far too big. The rotation is also a bit strange.

I do believe the earth was struck by a large mass at some point in our distant past, and that this is somehow related to the extra large moon in orbit. If the geological data suggests the mineral content of the moon is too different to be a chunk of the earth that was re-formed in orbit, then perhaps it's reformed debris from whatever hit us?
once again, more speculation.

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steve@fieroproject.com
http://www.fieroproject.com

now you got me wondering - is it even possible for a collision to knock mass free from the earth, and to put it into a circular orbit.

Im having a hard time visualizing that - the moon is a significant distance from the earth, and its moving at a right angle to our surface - so something would have to accelerate the mass into space, and then give it a sideways velocity so it would stay in orbit and not come crashing straight back down.

unless maybe something big sideswiped the earth and blew it all into a big cloud of debris - and most of it settled back down to form the earth, and a big part of it sayed in orbit and formed the moon?!

But then I think the earth would have rings like saturn.

Its an interesting physics question - would be good to put on a final exam.

Geez...what's the record for # of thread pages anyway?

This may be far fetched... and maybe I've watched too many X-Files episodes... but, I think it would be cool if in the distant future, we find that an alien race (not as in "little-green-men", but just another "civilization" of sorts from space) planted life here on Earth as a science experiment and evolution took place from there. It could be that man was later "planted" here after the rest of the life on the planet had evolved into a stable form.

Maybe "God" is nothing more than a scientist from a highly advanced civilization somewhere in the Universe.

Or maybe, kinda like Darklords points, we are the decendants from another civilization that came here to escape disaster. (Kinda like "Earth 2".) Maybe those that escaped and survived weren't the smartest and couldn't recreate their technology.

(Maybe I'll write a book someday.)

quote Maybe "God" is nothing more than a scientist from a highly advanced civilization somewhere in the Universe

And how did this other civilization come to be? Maybe they were created by another civilization?