The Bible never mentioned that "all blacks are borthers". Where did you get that?
The Bible was speaking very literally when it spoke of His brothers and mother coming to meet Him. I thought I showed that very clearly. Read it for yourself (try to set aside your bias for a moment), and see what it says to you.
Apparently you feel all non-Catholics are extremists? And that the Catholic church is the one true church? Romans felt that way about their mythology as well... And yes, the Pope is officially titled "Holy Father". Doesn't it bother you to call a human being "His Holiness"?
If you're asking a dead person's soul to do anything for you, you are praying TO them...As opposed to about them, around them or whatever argument you're using...if you ask me to do something, you're talking to me. If I'm DEAD and you're talking to me you're either praying TO me or holding a sayance. Which is it?
Again, where is the Biblical foundation for praying to the dead?
Peter did not invoke the Catholic church, a Roman did, long after they EXECUTED Peter. It wasn't until recently in their history they even claimed to have found his bones, buried with the other early Christians they martyred, and then they only built the altar on them.
My understanding of the Catholic church comes form YEARS of research, and reading the church's OWN literature, meeting with Priests, Bishops, etc. NOT from disgruntled ex-members. In my experience, members of the church know the least about their beliefs, you must go to the source to find them.
No one arguing the differences of Prodestant beliefs and Catholicism is jealous of you, or the numbers you hold.
after looking back over this thread I believe Voytek is really a Jehovias Witness - pretending to be a devote Catholic and playing devils advocate in an attempt to 'defend' the catholic faith
and in the process of doing it so poorly, is actually attacking it.
Ken - don't take the designation Father so literally. Obviously a priest is NOT a father, let alone a God and father to us, His children.
Yeah, the number 1 billion does say a lot - I don't need to go into it. I'm glad you're amused - that's what I'm here for. And it is generally a sign of fanatics to interpret the Bible literally. Some cult members, who have interpreted the teachings of Bible literally, have committed suicide - some interpretations were just to literal. Fanatics will also memorize passages and quote them at will, and use it to their own benefit. We could talk about the number 666 which, for example, JW's seem to talk about fairly often (and BTW, I think 666 has some awesome techno music ) Again, this is picking the nitty gritty rather than concentrating on the general teachings of Jesus.
Triad - you missed the point - black people usually refer to each other as 'brothers'. That was a sarcastic comment on my part.
BTW, show me, if you would please, where I said that all non-Catholics are extremists. Don't put words in my mouth. I actually feel quite close to Anglicans and Protestants - both definitely not extremists.
As far as praying to them (saints) / with them / for them or whatever - it's a matter of interpretation. I guess that's why you're not Catholic and I am.
quote
My understanding of the Catholic church comes form YEARS of research, and reading the church's OWN literature, meeting with Priests, Bishops, etc. NOT from disgruntled ex-members. In my experience, members of the church know the least about their beliefs, you must go to the source to find them.
That's a bit of a contradiction, don't you think? You say members know the least about their own church but you feel your information is correct because you claim you've talked to priests and bishops? Wouldn't those be members in the strongest sense?
In any case, I think my part of this discussion is over. Obviously I can't throw quotations from the Bible the way others can. I suppose I could try but I don't have time for this. I'm sorry you both feel the way you do about the oldest Christian church rather than concentrating on REAL frauds and cults and other money makers out there.
One last thing - as a Catholic I will not bash or try to dispute the validity of any other Christian church. That's just the way we're brought up.
Good luck in all your future research, Triad.
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03:52 PM
Voytek Member
Posts: 1924 From: Calgary, Alberta, Canada Registered: Jan 2001
Since I was raised Catholic, I'd like to address some of these statements/questions...
quote
Originally posted by TRiAD: ...Apparently you feel all non-Catholics are extremists? And that the Catholic church is the one true church? Speaking only for myself, I will say that only the people that insist "their" way is the only correct way are the extremists. ... And yes, the Pope is officially titled "Holy Father". Doesn't it bother you to call a human being "His Holiness"?
We were taught that the Pope is supposed to be God's "representative", here on earth. As such, he was to be revered and honored (as were Mary and the other saints), but most definitely NOT worshipped. If you're asking a dead person's soul to do anything for you, you are praying TO them...As opposed to about them, around them or whatever argument you're using...if you ask me to do something, you're talking to me. If I'm DEAD and you're talking to me you're either praying TO me or holding a sayance. Which is it?
I have often wondered whether those who have died before us can hear our thoughts. Since they are no longer bound by physical laws, I'd like to think that they can, and that maybe, just maybe, they are in Heaven and can talk with God, as well. Of course, since we are still bound by physical laws, we can't hear their thoughts. That would be where your "seance" reference would figure in. I don't think there's anything harmful in thinking that those who have gone before can hear you, if you just remember to be mindful of where the power is really coming from.
I could not come to this forum everyday and not post in this thread. Months from now I would like to be able to tell people I was one of many that crashed Cliff's server with a Harry Potter Thread.
Do I practice a religion? Yes, but in the last year I have found many more questions than I was finding answers for. Have I given up on religion? No, but I am looking for something to provide answers and hope.
Many of you have provided information and oppinions that will having me reading and studying for months. For that I Thank You all. I am also very impressed that this thread has remained quite civil throughout. No matter what you all believe in, I hope you are all happy
That's a bit of a contradiction, don't you think? You say members know the least about their own church but you feel your information is correct because you claim you've talked to priests and bishops? Wouldn't those be members in the strongest sense?
I was making a large distinction between laypeople and the clergy. The laypeople are visitors on Sundays most often, and Clergy have been trained in their beliefs.
Most laypeople, regardless of religion or creed, are largely unaware of the detailed teachings of their belief, unless they have gone out of their way to study them.
Raydar ~ well put.
One point on the Pope; we are ALL God's representatives. Paul called up "Ambassadors in chains". There is to be no distinction between us on that level. "Whoever is greatest amoung you will be least in the Kingdom of God". I wouldn't want to be him, anyway...
I cannot claim to know whether people who have gone before are "sleeping" as some passages put it, or are already in their final destination, as some poeple interperet Christ's reference to "Today you will be with Me in Paradise", spoken to the thief who accepted Him on the cross.
Persoanlly? With the references in the Bible about the 2nd coming and "the dead who are in Christ" raising first and "meeting Him in th sky", I believe they are asleep, oblivious to anything until Jusdgement Day. We will all recieve judgement, and only when we die, I happen to believe that this will be an all-at-the-same-time thing. Each one recieving personal judgement and giving personal account, but the Bible states that "hidden things will become known", so I believe this will be in front of everyone, in the truest form of the word.
At any rate, there is still no reference given for praying to/for/through the dead in any way shape or form.
Also, this is just one discussion of 100s on this site, can we keep it clean? Please?
[This message has been edited by TRiAD (edited 11-26-2001).]
no more bible passages for me! now that I have it on good authority that the bible is NOT to be taken literally, and that only a fanatic will do so, I have thrown mine away
all eight traslations.
from now on I will follow the largest group of people I can find, which I think are the 1.4 billion atheists in china.
ken w going to join FALON GONG????? what or where is paradise was not that the garden of eden,? is that were the thief is now??and were is the angel with flameing sword on guard at the gate????? purgatory never sounded like fun,but must be over full by now, do they build additions as needed????? do the hellbound share purgatory with the saved as both are unjudged as trump hasnot happpened yet??????
Originally posted by SCCA FIERO: Uhh... can I get a #4, super-sized with a Coke?
I second that !
I saw this thread was still active and thought I would read the last page to catch up on it.. what started off as a harmless thread sure brought the meaness out in people. Sure..everyones got different believes, so what? they are entitled to them..
I never said harry Potter said "go worship Satan". But you did hit it on the head. "Magic". That is sorcery, which is clearly in opposition to the Bible.
Ok I see sorcery is bad according to the bible but miracles aren't? Lets see if a man in a cave changes water into wine its sorcery but if a man named Jesus does it its a miracle? Explain that one.
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09:59 PM
Shaun41178 Member
Posts: 1285 From: Whiney McWhinersons Moms Coochie Registered: Jan 99
Originally posted by Shaun41178: Ok I see sorcery is bad according to the bible but miracles aren't? Lets see if a man in a cave changes water into wine its sorcery but if a man named Jesus does it its a miracle? Explain that one.
Easilly. To do real sorcery, or miracles, takes more power than a human is empowered with naturally, agreed? (That's why they call it super-natural occurrences)
A person would need to recieve power to do these acts from somewhere...right?
Here's your difference...the source of the power...
Do you do these things in the Name of God, or in the name of...someone else?
That's it. God does miracles, gods do sorcery.
Mmkay?
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10:12 PM
PFF
System Bot
Shaun41178 Member
Posts: 1285 From: Whiney McWhinersons Moms Coochie Registered: Jan 99
I also love the Bible. I have read it cover to cover approximately 20 times. Although it is not intended to be a science book, it is scientifically accurate in EVERY instance. Although it is not intended to be a history book, it is historically accurate in EVERY instance. Verifiable by SECULAR science and history.
.
Ok so secular science has actually proved that there was a world wild flood? I was unaware of this. The only way that something can be verified is if it is documented by more then one source and many details from the sources back up the other sources. ( slightly redundant)
If there was actually a world wide flood then it sure didn't take long for the people in the mideast on MT Sinai to make their way to china and then across the Bering Strait and then to north america and then to central america and then to the southern most tip of South America. And in that time for the Mayans and all the other civilizations to build huge buildings (ie pyramid looking structures). Hmm isn't that wierd??
I am sure secualr science has proved that it took less then 5k years for all this to happen? Actually I think secualr science has proved that it took more like 50k years which is longer then what the bible says the world began. Thats odd isn't it?
But I guess that is cause the bible is historically accurate in every instance??
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10:22 PM
Gerald Member
Posts: 273 From: Red Deer, AB, Canada Registered: Sep 2001
the flood would also account for the seperation of the continents - if the surface was fairly flat, and covered with water, and then the continents were pulled apart over a short period of time, the waters would receed into the oceans (where they are now) the plates would shift, mountain ranges would be created in a matter of weeks, and surface features like the grand canyon would be created in a month by the incredible amount of receeding water.
Will scientists consider any of this? No. Because it is accounted for in the bible, and therefor it would be tagged creation science (even though it has nothing to to with the creation, we are talking about the flood here).
So they ignore it, they wont even consider it.
The only reason why you are able to make that argument is because science has PROVEN that the world used to be that way. If scientists never disovered and proved that then you wouldn't be able to make that point cause the bible doesn't talk about tectonic plate separation. And they weren't pulled apart quickly. They are moving at about 2 inches per year. Now it might not have been always been that fast but mountains created in a matter of weeks? WTF happened for everything to suddenly be slowed down to a snail pace now? Can the bible explain that?
Also the reason for water organisms being atop mountains is cause of tectonic plate movements. AS they come togethor one gets pushed up and sometimes it goes up thousands of feet. Which can explain how a dead sea animal on the bottom of water can be pushed up that high. Again science has proven that is how that happened.
So without science proving these things you can't use that as your argument for the stories in the bible cause back when it was written they didnt' know this.
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10:35 PM
JSocha Member
Posts: 3522 From: Felton, MN, USA Registered: Apr 2001
[QUOTE]Originally posted by TRiAD: Easilly. To do real sorcery, or miracles, takes more power than a human is empowered with naturally, agreed? (That's why they call it super-natural occurrences)
No I don't agree. I guess that depends on your point of view. One can see you fixing a car as a miracle cause they don't have the power to do it but you do. It could be supernatural to them but perfectly natural to you.
And who is this "they" that you speak of? If you mean religious folk I don't think they ever called it supernatural occurances. I think they called them miracles back then
<<<<A person would need to recieve power to do these acts from somewhere...right?>>>
No, like I said a power can be perfectly natural to you like being able to fix a car. That is a sort of power. It is a power cause others aren't able to do it. Maybe this Jesus guy always had the power to change water into wine but just didn't do it. By choice or something who knows. I mean if you saw a car that was there and could be fixed and chose not to doesn't mean you don't have the power. And when you do fix that car it doesn't mean it was a miracle that you were able to cause you did it once. Its not that great of an analogy but I hope you understand what I am trying to say.
<<<Here's your difference...the source of the power...>>>
Perhaps the source of this power is always in you and doesn't come from an outside source.
Just because you don't have the power to do something doesn't mean that when someone else does it that it is a miracle or scorcery or whatever you want to call it.
I think some people are born with special powers that noone else has. They don't have to be "supernatural" powers but something that noone else can do. But because they can do something that noone else can doesn't mean they have the power of God behind them.
And when I say God I dont' mean the Christian God. I mean all Gods, Allah Buddha, whatever you want to call "IT"
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11:19 PM
Nov 27th, 2001
frontal lobe Member
Posts: 9042 From: brookfield,wisconsin Registered: Dec 1999
Shaun41178, I guess I wasn't looking for science to PROVE there was a worldwide flood. I am saying that science has never been able to DISPROVE any statements in the Bible. I like the standard of proof that is expected of the Bible, versus the easy pass given to science. Science has changed it's "truths" over the years. The Bible hasn't.
Historically, archaeology has never been able to disprove any of the statements in the Bible. Your expectation seems to be that it must PROVE them. Well, in almost all instances it has, and has never disproven them. That is enough for many unbiased people. I'm not accusing you of bias, but the tenor of your response makes me suspicious.
To Ken, I go to a baptist church and someone wanting to join (that is JOIN, ALL are welcome to attend) has to sign a card stating they are not a member of a secret organization like masons. So obviously it varies from church to church.
DRH, we don't do any Santa Claus at our house, or on cards, decorations, etc. No bunnies on Easter, either, etc. Trying to keep anything from distracting from the real meaning.
But please don't get me wrong. We are kind and neighborly about it. We aren't out ripping on others for what they do. Example, I will go ahead and give candy to someone that comes to my house on Halloween. Fine, we obviously don't participate and my kids don't go out, or dress up, etc. But if someone comes and knocks on the door, I'm not going to lecture them on the evils of halloween. Here, have some candy. And if you come by on some night other than halloween without a costume on and ask for candy, I'll probably find some for you then, too.
If someone ASKS me, though, I will kindly but directly answer them to what my beliefs are and why.
And to 72vinman, if you have any questions that you would like the Bible answer for, just e-mail me and I will give you the references to look up in the privacy of your own home and you can make up your own mind. Just an offer.
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01:30 AM
WhiteFieroBlur Member
Posts: 321 From: Lawton, Oklahoma Registered: May 2000
Wow this has over 200 something posts and I am just way too lazy to read it everytime I look at it its 100 more posts added. So let me just get on the end so I don't feel left out. I have no clue about all the God stuff ya'll are talking about now. So I'll say I liked the movie when I saw it, it was kinda long but it was good.
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01:39 AM
Cheever3000 Member
Posts: 12397 From: The Man from Tallahassee Registered: Aug 2001
No way I'm going to read all the posts since I last came in here... just want to know something. When one walks on water, does one rise and fall with the waves, or does one hover at an average place and the waves just lap onto the ankles once in a while?
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01:46 AM
Monkeyman Member
Posts: 15809 From: N. Wilkesboro, NC, USA Registered: Nov 1999
If the Bible says it, it's true. Period. Don't believe there was a world wide flood because it's not "logical"? God works in mysterious ways and can do anything. Anything.
Science hasnt proven how the continents were formed, or mountain ranges, or the grand canyon.
Men have gone out and looked at these things and studyed them and based on several assuptions have drawn their conclusions.
That doesnt mean they are right. Science has a reputation of being wrong, seriously wrong, and in thinking they have it right now, throughout history.
People refer to the bible verse that mentions the 4 corners of the earth and say "look - the bible says the earth is flat!"
The original language of that passage says the 4 quadrants, not the 4 corners - as in dividing the sphere into 4 sections.
there are other verses that say explicity that the earth is spherical, and that it hangs in space - suspended on nothing.
the bible is also the ONLY religious book that says that time itself had a beginning - only recently have scientists realized that before the big bang, there was no matter, no energy and no TIME either. But there are verse in the bible that state God existed before TIME itself.
someone explain to me please why was the land mass all grouped togeher in one 'plate' in the first place?! How does this make sense from a tettonics perspective? The bible says that God seperate the land from the waters, its been in there for 6 thousand years - why did it take science so long to figure it out.
and as for humans having supernatural powers all on their own - that is what new agers and satanist want you to believe - that is what they tell you - the power is within you - you have a special gift, blah blah blah - all the time knowing full well that you dont - and that any supernatural things you experience are demonic manifestations.
I guess thats the real problem isnt it. If only one religion is correct, the rest must all be demonic, right? If God is not performing the miracles you are seeing in your church - if the visions of Mary you are seeing are not coming from God - if the guy who hands you the golden plates is not really sent by God, then you are in deep weeds.
After reviewing this rant I have decided to take the road of enlightenment and switch to Buddhism.
Dhammapada quote of the day: (Buddhist ethics) Don't speak harshly to anyone. If you do people will speak to you in the same way. Harsh words are painful and their retaliation will hurt you. 133
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09:34 AM
JSocha Member
Posts: 3522 From: Felton, MN, USA Registered: Apr 2001
Now that I sit back and read some of the crap you post, it all makes sense. You dispute Christmas, you talk about Jesus's brothers and you're generally bothered by anyone who doesn't see things the way you do, particularly Catholics. Those are all very typical signs of JW's.
In fact, I suggested this several times and I didn't see anything to the contrary from you. What's the matter, are you ashamed of your own religion? Several people here have openly stated what religion they practice - the only thing you've said is what you've been raised as.
Do I hear the doorbell ringing? Must be some of your homies going door to door.
One thing that never changes here...The people speaking against the Bible are recounting things they thought they heard or understood without any point of reference, and that's OK for them, but I quote their own books and I must be talking hearsay.
I guess we (Christians) were warned about this... "The world will hate you as it has hated Me"..."The Wisdom of God is as ignorance to man..."... Oh well.
how about passind judgment on those you know nothing about?
Since you insist, I was raised in a Lutheran Church, and went through an intense period of study of religion, logic, reasoning, and the nature of God, and our relationship with him.
This included exploring the new age movement, eastern religions, meditation, studying the Koran, the Jewish understand of the old testimanet, and any other thing I could find books or information on, that was related to God or religion.
In the end God interviened in my search, pointed me in the right direction, and I came to realize that Jesus is exactly who the bible says He is - and through the gift of the Holy Spirit the Creator of the Universe revealed Himself to me in a personal way that you will never understand unless it happens to you too.
You dont realize it but I have been gentle and kind with you on this forum. If I wanted to I could type pages and pages and rip your concept of what the 'church' is to shreads. It amuses me that people who are wrong about things take the truth as an attack.
Its not my job to straighen anyone out - I have been putting out a few subtle statements here and there, and you keep digging yourself in a hole deeper and deeper.
to finish my history, I belonged to a baptist church for about 2 years, and now, if you need to label me, I am a Born again, Spirit filled, bible believing, water baptized certified Jesus Freak at Large.
I am not currently a member of any organized religious group - I do attend meetings of the Calvery Chapel near my home from time to time, mostly because I enjoy the fellowship, and I enjoy the radio broadcast teachings of Chuck Missler (even though I dont agree with everything he says).
So I guess discrenment is not one of your gifts.
I have personally witnessed the tragity and descruction that being a catholic has brought on many people - many families. familys that had 7 or 9 kids, when they only wanted one or two - but the pope says no birth control - do you have any idea of the damage that is done to a child when it is unwanted?
I know people who went to catholic schools - who had learning disabilities, but were treated at if they were simply stupid - more ruined lives.
I pointed out before that the RC church has some serious problems, many serious problems. Your canned response is 'but there are a billion of us!'
the are 1.2 billion Muslims - does that mean they are more OK than you?!
and Ive put forth the bottom line question, which you have avoided - what is the final means for deciding which religion is correct? How do you KNOW you are doing the right thing?
because you have the most number of people?
because your beliefs still squarely with the bible - with the best understanding of the bible you can attain from its many translations and the original manuscripts?
because your church has a long tradation, because you can trace it back thousands of years? does that make it correct?
because you have a leader who is 'infallable' ?! Gods appointed one?!
I put to you, the answer is none of these things - you dont know the answer. You dont seem to have ever even considered the question.
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11:19 AM
DRH Member
Posts: 2683 From: Onalaska, WI, USA Registered: Dec 1999
Actually in some ways our technological advances make the Bible more believable, not less. A virgin giving birth? That's been scientifically feasable for years now. A woman created from a man's rib? If you can't see how this would be possible in a few years you might want to read up on what's going on lately with DNA mapping and cloning.
One ages miracles and supernatural occurances are another ages science. Current estimates of the age of the universe (which seem to get older every time) are that it is 10 or so billion years older than our sun. Looking at how far our science has advanced in the last hundred or so where would a race with a 5 billion year head start be right now?
Ken, ken, ken. You never seize to amaze me. Try going back to some of your earlier posts in this thread, as well as in another recent one. I even asked you to take it to PM. So who started the bullcrap with sarcastic remarks? It's amazing how people, who can quote the Bible so well, have such a short memory for other things.
And in this thread? I believe the debate was about whether there is a God. At what point did we lose you? What made YOU decide to point out faults of other Christian religions? YOU, rip ME to shreads? I have a wealth of information at my fingertips that would make you and your religion look like PeeWee Herman. Do I have the time to dig into it? No. Some of us have a job and try to make a little time for PFF.
How's this: I know people who went to Lutheran churches that were scarred for life. Do you believe it? Unsubstantiated bulls$it, ISN'T it?
Oh, and a correction: I said there are OVER 1 billion Catholics. That could be over 1.2 billion - I'd have to check into this.
Muslims may be just as OK as I - YES, it does mean that. They're different but, as some wise person said here on PFF - as long as they follow their religion and their commandments, they are just as likely to end up in heaven as any of us.
Did I consider the question? Well, for starters, I don't appreciate you coming in here and questioning my religion. No one else on PFF has done that to anyone else. Some may have had the wrong information on various religions, but they know when to stop. You seem quite vicious with your Godliness and attacks.
How do I know if I'm doing the right thing? I've said it before and I'll say it again: if it's a choice between Ken Wittlief and his studies, versus an almost 2 thousand year old religion, documented in detail and passed from generation to generation, I believe the choice is a NO-BRAINER.
quote
Its not my job to straighen anyone out - I have been putting out a few subtle statements here and there, and you keep digging yourself in a hole deeper and deeper.
Subtle statements? I don't think you know the meaning of the word subtle. It's amazing how you haven't addressed Raydar's comments. Perhaps it's too much for you to handle?
It's also very convenient for you to disassociate yourself with any denomination. If there's no denomination, there's no one to attack, right? Very clever, Ken. I pity you.
[This message has been edited by Voytek (edited 11-27-2001).]