did I just send a blank post?!

JSocha: isnt there something similar in mental health care - if you realize you 'need help' then that proves you are not too far gone - but if you are adamant that you are NOT crazy, then you almost certainly are?

ok ill stop picking on you for a while :c)

. . . .

ok thats long enough

:c)

Personally I think its cool how this thread has evolved into a string of conscienceness conversation (pun intended) - it still strikes me as odd that someone would think discussing their most personal beliefs on a public formum is somehow 'cramming down someone else throat' or forcing your beliefs on someone else.

If a forum member shows up at your door and points a gun at your head and says 'covert of die' then they are forcing their beliefs on you - or if your boss pressures you... yada yada yada...

I wonder what would happen if a group of well balanced intelligent individuals all got together and said: religion is such a mess - it goes back so far that we cant sort it all out - so we are going to start from scratch - God if you are up there tell us what is it you want us to know/do - otherwise we are going to figure things out for ourselves and assume you are not there.

With the technology advances we have made and the formal methods of logic and reasoning - I wonder what conclusions a modern man would reach if he had no preconcieved notions of religion and god?

Flamberge, I appreciate your views and respect your beliefs.

When I stated that Mormonism was a cult, that was not a personal attatck, or even a personal opinion. Mormonism counts their "First President" as a mouthpiece of God. This makes them a cult, by definition. They follow one man.

Blacks weren't allowed even in the church until 1978, since Joseph Smith ("Joe", as his neighbors knew him) taught they were decendants of Cain, and were therefore cursed. They were also assumed to have fallen with Lucifer. First President Spencer Kimball (who died in 1985) is who finally claimed to recieve a "revelation" to the contrary.

The "First President", by the way, is considered to be a prophetic successor to Joseph Smith, and therefore is a prophet and revelator, who speaks in God's name. Authority then decends to his 2 advisors (High Priests), then to the 12 apostles, then to the "presiding quorum of 70", and the "presiding bishopric". Imdividual members are organized into "wards" of 500-1000, and are consolidated into "stakes".

They believe God was born to another god, and that he has "spiritual wives" whom he births all of us with. Jesus and Lucifer are both his sons, making them brothers, and that's also where polygamy comes from. "If a man des not enter into polygamy, he cannot attain godhood". There are roughly 30,000 fundamentalists remaining in Utah who still engage in polygamy, for this reason.

Mormons de-emphasize Easter and the Cross, they believe individuals can recieve Bible-changing revelation from God, they emphasize Monday as family night (not all their beliefs are bad ) and stocking foods for famine. They believe the Constitution is devinely inspired, and that the state of women is inferior to that of men. They strongly oppose birth control and interracial marriages. They take binding "temple oaths" which if you break, you risk your salvation. They also believe in a 3-tiered heaven (one for heathen, one for non-Mormon christians, and one for polygamists, who will become gods.)
They also believe NO ONE who was born before Mormonism can be saved, unless one of their decendants is BAPTISED for them. (proxy baptism of/for the dead).

--------

Someone her mentioned how many were murdered by Christians for their beliefs. This is just not the case. Joseph Smith and his brother Hyram were murdered (while in prison in Carthage, IL), but this is the only recorded murder of Mormons. They were driven out of many states, for their polygamist beliefs.

Joseph Smith was known to his neighbors as "illiterate, whiskey-drinking, shiftless, and irreligious". He was prone to exaggeration and untruthfullness. His mother, "Lucy Mack", practiced magic and had "visions". His father, Joe Sr, was a persistent treasure-seeker, always looking for the fabled Captain Kidd treasure.
Joseph would accompany his father on these trips, and was fond of the occult, especially devining and "peep stones".
One day in 1820, while praying in the woods, he recieved his fabled vision of Jesus and God. In 1823, he claimed that an angel "moroni" appeared at his bedside. The angel claimed to be the son of Mormon, the departed leader of an American race known as the Nephites. Moroni told him of a book of golden plates that contained "the fullness of the everlasting gospel". Four years later, in the hill names Cumorah (near Palmyra, NY) Smith supposedly unearthed the plates. Buried with them was reportedly a large, supernatural pair of spectacles (glasses), called "Urim and Thummim". They helped him translate the heiroglyphics on the plates (claimed to be "reformed Egyptian").
John began translating the plates, and was visited by John the baptist (sent by Peter James and John) who performed devine ordination. Once completed (with the help of two others) the plates were returned to Moroni.
"The Book of Mormon" was published in 1830. The subtitle "Another Testament of Jesus Christ" was recently added to aid in mission work amoung non-Mormon christians. On April 6, 1830, Mormonism was founded.
Smith also wrote "Doctrines and Covenants" "The Pearl of Great Price". Those, as well as the book of Mormon, are considered to be SUPERIOR to the Bible. Where there are differences, Smith's works are considered supreme. (again illustrating the cult status of the belief).

The Book of Mormon teaches of 2 middle eastern peoples who migrated to the americas. The "Jaredites" came here from the Tower of Babel, but were wicked and perished of their own immorality. Later, a group of Jews led by Nephi fled Jerusalem to avoid Babylonian captivity and ended up in S. America. They devided into warring factions; Nephites and Lamanites. The former destroyed the latter in a fierce struggle near Palmyra, NY in 428 AD. The victory earned them a curse; dark skin. They continued populating the Americas and became the American Indians. Before his demise, Mormon, the Nephite leader, compiled a record of his people and the appearance of Christ (after His resurrection in the Holy Land). he described how Christ met them in S. America and commissioned them to insdtitute communion, baptism, and priesthood. He recorded all this on golden plates, and buried them in NY. Joseph Smith found them 1400 years later.
--------

There's much more, but it comes down to beliefs that were later renounced, and essential (and this is key) following of one man. That is where the "cult" label comes from. A cult is a religious group that follows one man. (Man, not God, for those about to call Christianity a cult).

It was preached in the Mormon church that Jesus' blood no longer attoned for sin, and that a man's blood could be spilled by another if it would attone for his sin. (righteous murder).
The whole "we become gods" idea is also indicative of cults.
Mormon's second "prophet" ordered Mormon's to slaughter 120 people (the Fancher party) when they crossed Mormon land on their way to California.
They teach that Adam is God, and that Eve was one of his "spirit wives", and that Eden was in Missouri. This Adam-god (who is later called the Archangel Michael) was then reported to have SLEPT with Mary to conceive Jesus.

There is MUCH more...check "Larson's New Book of Cults", and any of a miriad of Mormon publications.

----------

Again, this is NOT opinion, this is NOT a flame, it is some of what my research has turned up.

Ken? You were picking on me?

Oh well, at least you, votek, some others and/or I can be glad its not a full out flame war between us.

On another note you all...only 25 more pages to go to make it to the far right.

I'm just wondering if the server will be able to handle this thread and not crash like the FieroLisa thread did?!

I'll stay out of it when it gets that high though as I don't want to be the one again that poops this thread out and sets it back to 10 pages again after you all work so hard to get it there.

quote Originally posted by JSocha: ...BTW, if you really are or do exist God and you can get this as I almost forgot... BEEP!...

LOL!

[This message has been edited by TRiAD (edited 11-24-2001).]

Actually, I think LSDs have too many members to be a cult... i think the appropriate term is "sect..."

that means "big cult!"

-well, loosely, anyway

Very good Triad! You have definitly done your homework. Joseph Smith was a very high level mason. I have been in the temples and yes their are symbols from the masons everywhere.
Yes most of my family is still deep in the cult or sect. You are right about most churches look for offerings but your to give what you can Not exactly 10%. We were very poor when I was kid and the bishop would call my poor grandfather in and still put a guilt trip on him and use the typical scare tactics to make him believe that if he wanted to be saved he better pay his tith. Anyway good luck to ya. I hope for your sake you awake one day to discover how many things the mormons believe in that go completly against gods word.
By the way people make comparisons to the all the people the christians killed for a little multi year happening called the crusades. Read up on it and you'll discover that they could have blew up 50 of those buildings and not caught up to the atrocities committed by the christians during this period.
Again Triad I'm impressed by your knowledge on this subject.

------------------

Triad: I don't take your post as a flame, but it is incorrect on *many* points. (Please don't take my post as a flame either.) Without rereading your post: interracial marraige is NOT looked down upon, blacks could be in the church before 1978 (they just didn't have the priesthood,) there were MANY more Mormons murdered than just Joseph Smith and Hyrum, etc etc. As for being the mouthpiece of God, if that is a cult, than what about the catholic church? What about the Isrealites during biblical times? (Moses, etc..) by your definition that makes them a cult. Your sources are thorough but a lot of it is untruthful. (A LOT of it is.) However, I find it interesting that whenever religious topics happen in open forums (or conversations) the moment someone says "Mormon" people are quick to voice what "they" (the Mormons) believe. Their sources are always anti-Mormon sources, and are subjective and generally untruthful.

Also, when you lay out a religion's beliefs like that (they believe this, and this, and this) it doesn't do it justice. You have to learn *why* they do the things they do, and why 10 million people honestly believe that we have a modern day prophet. I just ask that people would not be so ham-fisted when talking about what I hold closest to my heart. I have a joke:

"If you want to know about the jewish faith, ask a jew. If you want to know about the catholic faith, ask a catholic, if you want to know about the mormon faith, ask anyone you want." Everyone seems to know what I believe, but you are wrong. And ultimately it doesn't matter. My statement then is this: the people on this forum are my friends, so far as I have gotten to know them. I respect them (especially people like Triad - you seem very cool.) But if anyone wants to know what the Church of Jesus Christ of Latterday Saints is *really* about, don't go to chick.com and read a cartoon, or check out a "cults in america" book. ask a Latterday Saint, or read the Book of Mormon, or go to www.mormon.org. And take what you hear from people with a grain of salt. I would bet that 6 out of 10 average people in america think Mormons still practice polygomy! This is my last post on this topic. I have a testimony of the church. It is my religious belief, and I changed from another religion to it. Just like hundreds of thousands of people every year. I am not saying Mormons are better than anyone else, we are people too. I make mistakes, etc. But I still press on. I wouldn't change my being in the church for anything.

Finally, in case anyone was wondering, since I haven't said anything about Harry Potter, I have read all four books and have no problem with it as escapist entertainment. (Same with Lord of the Rings, anything cyberpunk, etc.) But that is my own personal outlook on things.

------------------
- Flamberge

Flamberge, no problems, this is what I like, we can discuss without getting dirty.

There is one problem with what you know and what I know. I have researched the Mormons (and the Masons for that matter) at great length. What you base your belief of what the church believes is based on your experience in the pew (chair, or whatever) and I base mine on many of the books that Mormonism is founded on, including the Book of Mormon.

For example; if I hadn't researched Mennonites (the denomination I'm loosely associated with through my church) I'd never know about the whole "which books are cannonical/Biblical" argument the Protestants had with the Catholic church (and yes, I know it's a very diffivult view to swallow, but if you must know, I consider them a large cult as well, for exactly the reason you mention; the Pope. Jesus was the last prophet of God).
My point is; you don't learn all the beliefs of the religion you're a member of by sitting in the pew every Sunday (saturday?). You have to research it, because many of the core beliefs, strangely enough, aren't preached; especially if they're difficult to swallow for most people.

Anyway...you'e probably right about the blacks thing (not being allowed priesthood, as opposed to membership) but it's still a rough pill for many to swallow, and shows Joseph's probable links to the Klan rather clearly. (The KKK was also founded by Freemasons, which Joseph also was).

Good discussion all, I'm off for now...

quote Originally posted by TRiAD: Thanks for the backup Darklord; Ray thinks that since his daddy is a member of a secret society, he knows all about them.

AS I GREW UP GOING TO MASONIC FUNCTIONS and knew many members and their kids more like inside knowlage.
when my dad was dieing at age 80 he gave me his mason's shriners ring[with a one carrit diamond that was my grandmothers engagement stone] I asked him about the inner secrets of the masons and if I should join them.
HE SAID THEY ARE JUST A SOCIAL CLUB, BUT biz contacks and look out for each other are main bennifits of being a member.
RITES are just mumbojumbo NO ONE BELIVES THEM
and they ARENOT PLOTING OR PLANING TO TAKE OVER ANY THING and no different than elks or moose or lions clubs in what they are up to!!
but roots are very old back to knights templar that was a real secret society with real secrets that the church was afraid of like mary magdalen and JC's kids and what happened to them[became the Merovingian kings of france pre Charlemagne]
But Prieure deSion is the secret society that still has the templars secrets hidden not the masons.MASONS NEVER HAD THE REAL SECRETS
read HOLY BLOOD HOLY GRAIL about secrets of PRIEURE de SION, CATHARS, CHRIST and his KIDS.they also claim to have the BODY OF CHRIST hidden in south of france.

------------------
Question wonder and be wierd

Ray,

1) This will be the LAST time I respond to you until you show some netiquette. I know you can type in english, I've seen you do it, so quit intentionally insulting us.

2) You dad couldn't tell you more, if he knew it. Seeing your proneness to being over-impressionable; it was nothing short of wisdom for him not to show you more; again, assuming he was even far enough along to know it.
I will secceed however, that there are other secret societies, and many much more dangerous than the Masons.

3) Mary Magdaline and Christ never had intercourse, much less any kids. If Christ hadn't lead a blameless life (and extra-marital sex is a sin) His life/death/resurrection woud have been in vain.
You really think a hooker could truly tempt the Son of God?! Wow...

4) Christ's body went with Him when He rose back into heaven. No body here for anyone to have "hidden". The "Shroud of Turin" was a fake, too. Sorry to burst your bubble.

Again, it is purely an insult for you to intentionally type like the bastard child of a monkey and a cow. Communicate like the human being you are, and maybe people will actually read and respond to your posts.

quote Originally posted by TRiAD: Ray, 1) This will be the LAST time I respond to you until you show some netiquette. I know you can type in english, I've seen you do it, so quit intentionally insulting us. i know i can"t type or spell so you reject my IDEAS TOO???? 2) You dad couldn't tell you more, if he knew it. Seeing your proneness to being over-impressionable; it was nothing short of wisdom for him not to show you more; AS I BELIVE NOTHING I GUESS I AM NOT IMPRESSIONABLE IN THE LEAST BIT, AND DAD TOLD IT LIKE IT WAS HE WAS NOT ONE TO HIDE TRUTH OR BELIVE IN BS.EVER again, assuming he was even far enough along to know it. HE WAS A 33degree SHRINER NO HIGHER LEVEL EXISTS IN CLUB I will secceed however, that there are other secret societies, and many much more dangerous than the Masons. 3) Mary Magdaline and Christ never had intercourse, much less any kids. If Christ hadn't lead a blameless life (and extra-marital sex is a sin) His life/death/resurrection woud have been in vain. You really think a hooker could truly tempt the Son of God?! Wow... MARY M WAS HIS BRIDE WHY DID HIS MOM CARE THE WINE WAS GONE???? IT WAS AT HIS WEDDING THE WINE WAS CHANGED FROM WATER AS THAT IS BRIDEGROOMS RESPONCABLITY NOT A GUESTS. JC WAS CALLED RABBI AND A RABBI MUST BE MARRIED. JC LIVED AS A NORMAL MAN INTILL AGE 30 NO ONE SAID HE WAS NOT MARRIED. MARY AS A HOOKER IS ANTI-WOMAN BS OF CHURCH FATHERS REVISIONS 4) Christ's body went with Him when He rose back into heaven. No body here for anyone to have "hidden". The "Shroud of Turin" was a fake, too. Sorry to burst your bubble. AND YOU WERE THERE AND SAW ALL THIS??????? Again, it is purely an insult for you to intentionally type like the bastard child of a monkey and a cow. Communicate like the human being you are, and maybe people will actually read and respond to your posts.

IN CASE YOU CAN'T FIGURE IT OUT I USE ALL CAPS TO SET APART MY REPLYS FROM ORIGINAL TEXT IN QUOTE!!!!!!

------------------
Question wonder and be wierd

quote Originally posted by ray b: i know i can"t type or spell so you reject my IDEAS TOO???? [/B]

I haven't followed the rest, nor do I really care, but I have to agree on this point. Why is his grammar an issue? If you don't like his views/ideas, then say so. Don't go all anal-retentive 4th grade english teacher...

*goes back to watch debate*

quote Originally posted by ray b: i know i can"t type or spell so you reject my IDEAS TOO???? Mary Magdaline and Christ never had intercourse, much less any kids. If Christ hadn't lead a blameless life (and extra-marital sex is a sin) His life/death/resurrection woud have been in vain. CASE YOU CAN'T FIGURE IT OUT I USE ALL CAPS TO SET APART MY REPLYS FROM ORIGINAL TEXT IN QUOTE!!!!!! [/B]

Quoted material always shows up as 'bold' type. A reply, even to a quote, will show up differently, whether in all caps or lower case. You will notice that your sig is not in all caps, yet it is easily discernable from the quoted post. There is no need to cap just to differentiate from a quote, the program Cliff uses does that for us.
Don

MY ISSUE IS NOT WITH WHETHER HE CAN SPELL OR TYPE, IT'S THAT I KNOW HE CAN, BUT REFUSES TO.
THIS IS AN INSULT, AND NOTHING MORE.

I WOULD NEVER CALL ANYONE ON IT IF IT WERE SIMPLE INABILITY. HE'S DOING IT TO BE RUDE.

quote Originally posted by TRiAD: [b]MY ISSUE IS NOT WITH WHETHER HE CAN SPELL OR TYPE, IT'S THAT I KNOW HE CAN, BUT REFUSES TO. THIS IS AN INSULT, AND NOTHING MORE. I WOULD NEVER CALL ANYONE ON IT IF IT WERE SIMPLE INABILITY. HE'S DOING IT TO BE RUDE.[/B]

Dunno about that... In my own personal email correspondence with ray b, it's the same format... Some days it's better than others, but it's pretty classic basic hunt-n-peck-ese...

Don't be so sensitive to it. You have a wealth of information... Shoot down his arguments that way.

I haven't had the "pleasure" of reading through all 175 posts so I apologize if this question has been asked before, but...Is FieroLisa a part of this thread??? I realize that Mr. Potter is quite a famous person these days, but is he that good? Or have I completely missed the point of this entire thread? (If I have no idea what I'm talking about, just tell me to shut up and send me to my room.)

quote Originally posted by maryjane: Quoted material always shows up as 'bold' type. A reply, even to a quote, will show up differently, whether in all caps or lower case. You will notice that your sig is not in all caps, yet it is easily discernable from the quoted post. There is no need to cap just to differentiate from a quote, the program Cliff uses does that for us. Don

if and only if itis not in main body of quote
as I donot know how to do colors or BREAK APART quotes to incert MY REPLY right after line it is about.
in above QUOTE you picked up triad's mary line along with my REPLY to another line but both look the same type as they do in the original QUOTE I posted.

------------------
Question wonder and be wierd

The format of this last post will get you replies.

Was that so hard?

quote Originally posted by TRiAD: The format of this last post will get you replies. Was that so hard?

AHAHHHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHHH <==== Raucus laughter
LOL

bless'ya for making an otherwise BORING shift so much more interestind

GO BLUE BOMBERS!!!!

quote Originally posted by ray b: if and only if itis not in main body of quote as I donot know how to do colors or BREAK APART quotes to incert MY REPLY right after line it is about. in above QUOTE you picked up triad's mary line along with my REPLY to another line but both look the same type as they do in the original QUOTE I posted.

Ray, the reason that both your's and Triad's look the same is that when I clicked'reply with quote', they were both included, in otherwords they were from a preceding post, not part of my reply. Don't know why they don't look different to you, they are bold on my computer. I can't use colored fonts either. Colorblind anyway, so it wouldn't matter if I did. I'm sending you an email on another topic you may be able to help with, since you seem to be up to date on things.
Don

Oh boy...

just a quick question. what exactly is so dangerous about the masons?

------------------
Jaime
AOL IM: Jaygee79 ICQ: 85931334

rayb (and others),

By default the reply with quote indents (quote, /quote tags) and makes the quoted section bold (b,/b tags). You can play around with it afterwards by using the tags that make this happen. It's a little more work but not that hard to do. Edit this message to see the tags and what they do. A tag stays in affect until the same tag is used again with a / in front of it,.

quote Originally posted by somebody: ...something somebody wrote...

...your reply...

quote ...something else somebody wrote...

...your next reply...

etc...

[This message has been edited by DRH (edited 11-25-2001).]

I feel a "6th" page comin up soon.

MJ, you got PM!

quote Originally posted by Jaygee79: just a quick question. what exactly is so dangerous about the masons?

Well (being careful not to step on toes or offend; MANY people are related to Masons)...

Freemasonry is a Secret Society that is targeting young and/or impressionable people, primarilly Christians.

It is (aside from all their claims to the contrary) a religious organization (read; cult), more specifically, a "Luciferian Organization". They emit a facade of "non-religious" meetings, and "meaningless" rites (rituals), and try to convince their members that they're really no more than a country club anymore, with an interesting past.

As members get more and more involved, and move through the ranks, they become more intertwined in the sect and eventually are asked to take steps beyond their original "initiation", now blood oaths are necessary to continue, and this is when the real info comes out.

The books they utilize include the Bible, the Koran (Islam's Bible), Morals and Dogma, Manual of the Lodge, A Text Book of Masonic Jurisprudence, the Masonic Ritualist, and several others.

Ray's dad, a 3rd-degree Mason (or Shriner), uttered an oath to accept penalty of having his eyeballs pierced, or his feet flayed, if he revealed their secrets (even to Ray).
Other oaths inlcude tearing open the left breast, having bowels removed and burned to ashes, throat slashing, tongue removal, and burial at the edge of water. (Many of these are also Satanic execution rituals).

They profess philanthropic activism (the Shriners, who's hospitals recieve only 1/3 of the money raised for them) and extend charity to their members families.

Even if their is no truth to the oaths taken, they are still symbolic of violent and murderous acts, and are incompatible with Christianity. They also represent rendering one's alliance to the sect, and this alone is capable of rendering one's Salvation (if they were in fact saved) void.

33rd level Master Masons are referred to as "Worshipful Master", and their beliefs at this point are that Jesus was only a man, and had no Deity. (And yes, ther are MANY more than 3 levels).

The "G" on some of our bills (US currency) is representative of gnosis; a god-deity, the 3rd level Mason's symbol is the 5 points of fellowship (pentagram, also used in Wicca as well as Satanism, along with the pentacle.) The "eye" on the pyramid is a symbol of Osiris, and Horus, the all-seeing eye gods of ancient Egypt, and were adopted to support a proposed link to the builders of the Temple of Solomon of the Old Testament.

-----------

The short answer;
Basically, it's a forbidden (by the Bible) order, that has the power to render an alliance to God void, in it's denial of the power of Christ, and in it's oaths, that seeks out those suceptible (sp?) to it, like any other cult.

-------------

As always, none of this is meant as a flame towards anyone; it is simply some of the info gleaned in my studies of this particular movement.

quote Originally posted by TRiAD: Well (being careful not to step on toes or offend; MANY people are related to Masons)... Freemasonry is a Secret Society that is targeting young and/or impressionable people, primarilly Christians. It is (aside from all their claims to the contrary) a religious organization (read; cult), more specifically, a "Luciferian Organization". They emit a facade of "non-religious" meetings, and "meaningless" rites (rituals), and try to convince their members that they're really no more than a country club anymore, with an interesting past. As members get more and more involved, and move through the ranks, they become more intertwined in the sect and eventually are asked to take steps beyond their original "initiation", now blood oaths are necessary to continue, and this is when the real info comes out. The books they utilize include the Bible, the Koran (Islam's Bible), Morals and Dogma, Manual of the Lodge, A Text Book of Masonic Jurisprudence, the Masonic Ritualist, and several others. Ray's dad, a 3rd-degree Mason (or Shriner), uttered an oath to accept penalty of having his eyeballs pierced, or his feet flayed, if he revealed their secrets (even to Ray). Other oaths inlcude tearing open the left breast, having bowels removed and burned to ashes, throat slashing, tongue removal, and burial at the edge of water. (Many of these are also Satanic execution rituals). They profess philanthropic activism (the Shriners, who's hospitals recieve only 1/3 of the money raised for them) and extend charity to their members families. Even if their is no truth to the oaths taken, they are still symbolic of violent and murderous acts, and are incompatible with Christianity. They also represent rendering one's alliance to the sect, and this alone is capable of rendering one's Salvation (if they were in fact saved) void. 33rd level Master Masons are referred to as "Worshipful Master", and their beliefs at this point are that Jesus was only a man, and had no Deity. (And yes, ther are MANY more than 3 levels). The "G" on some of our bills (US currency) is representative of gnosis; a god-deity, the 3rd level Mason's symbol is the 5 points of fellowship (pentagram, also used in Wicca as well as Satanism, along with the pentacle.) The "eye" on the pyramid is a symbol of Osiris, and Horus, the all-seeing eye gods of ancient Egypt, and were adopted to support a proposed link to the builders of the Temple of Solomon of the Old Testament. ----------- The short answer; Basically, it's a forbidden (by the Bible) order, that has the power to render an alliance to God void, in it's denial of the power of Christ, and in it's oaths, that seeks out those suceptible (sp?) to it, like any other cult. ------------- As always, none of this is meant as a flame towards anyone; it is simply some of the info gleaned in my studies of this particular movement.

actually i know someone who is the worshipful master of his local mason's group and does not believe that Jesus was only a man, and the 2 masons that i know have never or would never take part in a 'blood oath' and they are 2 of the most involved people in our church. maybe it's just certain groups of them that practice that.

Now you are starting to understand - the fact that they have reached a certain level in the Masons means they were required to take the oaths and everything that goes with it.

so now you have a person in a postion of leadership in your church who is bound to another organization - And Im certain he did not take any oaths to be a part of your church - so where does his real allegance lie?

This is why their organization is suppose to be secretive - they dont want people to know what goes on there - and they are instructed to LIE to any outsider that asks pointed questions concerning their beliefs and activities.

I heard that, at one time, the Knights of Columbus and the Masons were going to merge, and call themselves Masonites.
Apparently, the name was already taken, though.

------------------
Raydar

From the Department of Redundancy Department.

quote Originally posted by Jaygee79: actually i know someone who is the worshipful master of his local mason's group and does not believe that Jesus was only a man, and the 2 masons that i know have never or would never take part in a 'blood oath' and they are 2 of the most involved people in our church. maybe it's just certain groups of them that practice that.

Jaygee, the 33rd level Mason that you know has at this point taken tens of blood oaths, and is in so deep he could really never leave. He has spoken alliances with the sect that specifically state that Christ was just a man. In one rite preceeding his level, they recant; "Adonai is the god of darkness and Lucifer is the god of light".

I'm really very sorry.
This is abig problem with the Masons...they recruit Christians, and get people who were looking for a social club involved essentially in Satanism, on some levels.

Now the other people you know could be at any level of involvement, if they're just initiates, they wouldn't even know what they're into yet...it's only at about the 3rd level that they begin taking oaths.

...That "Masonite" joke was a riot! I wonder who else got it...

MasonKnights!

there not real strong

they tend to be heavy

they go soft on you if you leave em out in the rain.

but on the plus side - they are cheap.

there leadership council in pennsylvania would be the PA Article Board?!

and the group in charge of maintaining the dune buggies for the Shriners parade is the Car Board.

[This message has been edited by Ken Wittlief (edited 11-26-2001).]

Let me just interject that I am post number 192..common a few more and it'll top 200...

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'88 coupe, 5 speed;
Have you seen my website yet?
Http://www.LithiumEffects/pheageysfeiro
"The car formaly know as, and has now reverted back to being known as, Pheagey's Fiero."

Triad:

quote I understand. However, the worship of the saints and of mary, and of the Pope, in the place of Christ, is nothing short of idolatry. (praying to the saints, praying to mary, Pope infallability, "mary sightings", the belief that mary died virginal in spite of Christ's younger siblings, etc, etc...)

A correction (Now I know how Flamberge feels). Catholics do not pray to Mary or saints. This is something misunderstood by most non-Catholics. Catholics pray for Mary (or saints) to 'intercede' for us, i.e. to pray to Jesus.

For example. One wouldn't as Mary for good health. One would ask Mary to pray to Jesus so that JESUS can grant good health. Yes, there is a difference. If you believe in afterlife, then you believe that the souls are 'up there', right? Are these souls just some particles like photons? No. Therefore it makes sense (to us Catholics) that they are capable of praying for us.

Flamberge

quote However, I find it interesting that whenever religious topics happen in open forums (or conversations) the moment someone says "Mormon" people are quick to voice what "they" (the Mormons) believe. Their sources are always anti-Mormon sources, and are subjective and generally untruthful.

I kinda sympathize with you. I don't know much about the Mormons (other than bits from my Mormon neighbours) but I don't care to dispute the religion or prove that it is wrong to anyone. The same is happening to the Catholic church. Non-believers (or 'competing' religions' members) hear stories (or even read them from unreliable sources) and believe them to be the truth then go around repeating these 'stories' like they're facts.

You see, Triad, there is definitely a lot of gray area, no matter what you believe. You seem to believe that Jesus had siblings. To me, this is completely ridiculous(no flame intended).

I do side with you on the Mason issue, though. My parents have done some reading on this cult and a lot of it confirms what you are saying. I think RayB has been lied to.

sorry i just don't believe that they would do things like that.

quote You seem to believe that Jesus had siblings. To me, this is completely ridiculous

holy cow - I guess its time to crack open the bible then - when Jesus was preaching to the masses His mother, Mary, and His brothers came looking for Him to take Him away

Rather than quoting scripture and verse I recommend you start at Matthew 1 and keep reading till you find it for yourself.f

then you might stumble on some other interesting things, such as "call no one 'Father' except God who is in heaven"

and the warnings that part of the church would go its own way, and practice things He had not taught, including: abstaining from eating certain foods (like meat maybe) and that marriage would be forbidden (ie priests and nuns maybe?!) and the warning that you should have 'nothing to do with these people!'

[This message has been edited by Ken Wittlief (edited 11-26-2001).]

Jaygee, again, I'm sorry.

Voytek; if you asking Mary (and the Saints) to pray for you, you are praying to them. This was my point. We don't need to pray to them (and there's no Biblical foundation for it or Biblical support that they could even hear you) since Christ opened the door for us. When He said "Pray in this way", He did't pray "My father David,(or Moses, or whomever) please ask my Father God Almighty to give me strength in the coming trials...", He taught us to pray to God, in His Name. Placing someone else in His place is in essence, worship of that person, and is idolatry. Placing statues of specific saints in the ground of the house you just bought to bless and protect it(a common Catholic practice) or placing reminders/images (totems) of a specific saint in your car (for protection, another common practice) is idolatry.
I know this is a hard word, but show one Biblical foundation for these actions.

Also, as for Jesus' siblings (all younger, as Mary was a virgin when He was born); see
Matthew 12:46-50, Mark 3:31-35, John 7:1-10. It refers to Jesus' brothers, traveling with Mary, and goes so far in John as to say that they did not believe in Him. (John 7:5).

When the people there told Him (in Matthew and Mark) "Your mother and brothers are outside and wish to speak to You" they were clearly speaking in the physical sense. His reply, pointing at His disciples; "Here are my mother and my brothers. For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven, is my brother and sister and mother." is clearly speaking in a spiritual sense.

This is not a debated issue, every Christian doctrine allows that Christ had other siblings through Mary. Only the Catholic doctrine of Mary's eternal virginity is in opposition, which there is no Biblical foundation for. (If there is ever the question, Mary's was not a virgin birth, either. This is a growing Catholic belief, for which there is also no Biblical foundation, is is obviously just a distortion of the growing worship of Mary.)

One more point on Mary worship; in latin countries (heck, even in Florida several years ago), who is it that Catholic people claim to have "appeared" to them? Who do they claim to have healed them? Jesus? No, Mary, "mother of the world".

This is a lie of the enemy to distort the point that Christ was making when Mary was chosen to be His "mother". The same point He made in who He chose for His disciples, and even for His ancestors, physically speaking;
God works through those who are least amoung us.
She, the disciples, and even most of His lineage, were no one special, they were simply wlling; and called.

The point; you don't have to be anyone special to be called of God, and to be able to do great things in His Name.

Bible names his brothers in matt 13-55
"He's just a carpenter's son, and we know Mary, his mother, and his brothers – James, Joseph, Simon, and Judas."
how can you think a woman with 5 sons is virgin ??????
how can a beliver think J C was a only child if bible names 4 brothers?????

ROMAN cathlic church replaced pagan gods with mary and saints in their positions just as they replaced the holidays of the romans with their christian X-mas on the date of sol invictis 12-25 and easter at the springtime date of festival of ester, but esters symboles of the young rabbit and chick have come down to us as the easter bunnie.

afiro-cubans replace the saints of cathlic's
with old gods of their past in santirea cult that kills animals to get the gods help for them, much as the romans did but in reverce.

any groupe that the church don't like is call satan's they have a long history of this
masons only a small part of this trend that shows total fear of any groupe not under church control.christians donot play well with others, never have or will respect rights of people not in their cult and thats why they are a DANGER to all.

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Question wonder and be wierd

Wow, guys. Have you ever thought that Jesus (and the Bible) may not speak in the literal way? I guess all blacks are brothers and sisters too then, eh?

Hmmmm, let's see: do I go with the beliefs of prophet Ken Wittlief or 1 billion other catholics? That's a tough one.

That's the problem with religious extremists - they take things very literally. Also, which bible are you reading? There is as many versions of bible as there are Christian churches.

Triad - asking a soul (Mary's or others) to pray for you is NOT the same as praying to them. If you believe in souls or afterlife (which I believe you do) than the logic that these souls are very much alive and in contact with God makes sense.

Oh, Ken - I don't recall the Catholic church calling anyone but Jesus (God) the father (and certainly not Mary). And the warnings you talk about could mean two things:
1. Pertain to other break-aways from the Catholic church.
2. Prove that you believe that the Catholic church IS THE original church (just not necessarily on the right path).

Your understanding of the Catholic church is based on interpretations given to you by non-Catholics or disgruntled Catholics.

Thanks for trying to tell me I'm living a lie. I guess the lies must be working good - we've had 10 new Catholics (among others from United Church) converted last Sunday just at our parish (there are 41 Catholic churches in Calgary).

You know, that reminds me - it's funny how many non-Catholics (particularly JW's) claim they ALL used to be Catholic at one point but now they found truth (sarcastic tone). So where are all those new Catholics coming from? I mean, if everyone is leaving, and everyone who's staying is living a lie, how come the church keeps growing? You know, Ken, jealousy is a sin, too.

So now you are claiming catholics DONT call their priests 'Father'?! Isnt that infact their title? Father John, Father William...

?!

it really is amusing how you keep pulling the 1 billion number out as if that proves something - if you were more familiar with the 'literal bible' which you shun, that would bother you too - many are on the road that will lead to destruction - so when it comes to getting it right with regards to Jesus, being in the majority is not a comforting feeling.