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Harry Potter must go. by Joe Torma
Started on: 11-18-2001 01:58 PM
Replies: 931
Last post by: Cliff Pennock on 02-04-2002 08:13 PM
Mach10
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Report this Post11-22-2001 06:26 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Mach10Send a Private Message to Mach10Direct Link to This Post
Wow, I leave for 3 days (sick) and things quiet down... Tell ya, that don't do much for my self-esteem

1) Radio carbon dating as actually woefully innacurate... It tends to skew things on the order of "too late" rather than too early. i.e., a radio-carbon date of 10,000 years is usually something like 11,231 years old... And the like. C-14 decays at a constant rate, this is true. Trouble is that the intake of C-14 varies from year to year. Increased solar activity results in a higher level of natural C14.

How they calibrate is actually using California Redwoods to track various climactic patterns. They've got a whole crop of Redwoods that are 5000+ years old that they measure off of. By matching up ring-patterns, they have created a scale that spans back to about 10,000BC.

There are other, much more sophisticated forms of radiometric dating. Electroflourescence dating in ceramics is useful, as is a whole host of dating techniques.

Truthfully, I've held proof in my hands that the world is MUCH older than 10,000 years. And this is just from Human remains. Not even going to GO to dinosaurs.

In terms of the bible being irrefutable historical proof? Hardly. I will give it this: It is very accurate about several events at around 1000BC or so... That's about it. All that says is that the original manuscript is very old. Doesn't say ANYTHING about it's integrety as a historical document.

There are many events in the Bible that have been misinterpreted in the past (Great flood, for example. Which of the several hundred ice ages is this refering to?). As with any anthropological study, the only way to know is to procure a time-machine. But, given the evidence on hand, we can extrapolate a reasonable explanation.

I'm not saying that the bible is false. What I AM saying is that anything to be taken as factual historical evidence MUST be taken with a grain of salt. As far as I'm concerned though, it's the teachings that are important, not the dates or individuals.

Nice to see that we're getting civilized again

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Ken Wittlief
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Report this Post11-22-2001 09:42 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Ken WittliefSend a Private Message to Ken WittliefDirect Link to This Post
someone who understands carbon dating answer a couple questions for me please.

the test depends on the amount of C14 the living organism received from the sun while it was alive, correct?

so if the sun was not putting out c14 at the same rate in the distant past, or if the radiation was blocked from reaching the surface of the earth by something, like the canopy of water/vapor that the bible says covered the earth, wouldnt that completey invalidate the results of any test done on something that was alive before the canopy collasped? ie - before the flood?

wouldnt that make the object appear to be vastly older than it really was, instead of thousands of years, maybe millions of years?!

since a fossel no longer contains any of the original material of the living organism - it has all been replaced by rock - fossilized - therefor you can not carbon date a fossel, correct?

the other stuff about the age of the earth - it assumes that errosion and soil deposits are being laid down now at the same rate as they have always been - so if there was a world wide flood, where is the continuity?! how do you know how old a layer is or how fast it eroded or was laid down? How do you know there were hundreds of ice ages before the last one, or that there even was a last one?!

say there was a green house like condition on the earth 10,000 years ago, the atmosphere was very different, more dense, higher vapor content - and maybe the surface of the earth was flatter

and something cataclismic happened - an astoroid collision that causes the atmosphere to be half blown away - or the temp to change so that the water condenses out and floods the earth.

its not hard to come up with many ways a catastrophy could have hit the earth 10,000 years ago that would invalidate our attempts to date rock formations, fossel carbon dating, ice age records, plate techtonics...

but like I said earlier, scientist exclude such events and assume things only change gradually.

personally I find it hard to believe they have access to 10,000 year old red wood trees - i thought the oldest ones were about 2000 years old - so any attempt to calibrate c14 dating past that is based on assumptions that no discontinuities have happened at any point in the past.

as for Ray B and others who deny the existance of god the only real problem you have to deal with is this: any person who is honest with themselves takes a good look at humanity and at themselves and sees no hope for our race or for our future.

those of us who go through life on our own steam have a clear understanding of what is right and wrong, what we should do and what we shouldnt do, and if you are honest you know that it seems to be impossible to live up to what we know is right.

this is even more true if you slip a bit and get behind. If a person wants to quit smoking, why is it so hard?! or drinking, or drug, or overeating?!

often the harder we try to get our lives to where we want them to be, the more we screw it up.

that is what being a christian is all about. Ray says he wants God to show him the way - he doesnt want to listen to other people. Thats what the Holy Spirit is all about - a small still voice inside you that is just barely enough to give you the strength and understanding to do the right thing, without your own spirit being overpowered - without loosing your freewill.

you will be amazed at how easy that is. All you have to do is ask for it, and slowly and gradully your eyes will be opened to things - things that didnt bother you before will now - things you didnt take joy in before, but you wanted to do, you will - things you didnt want to do before you will find the strength to overcome.

Thats what being a christian is all about - not going to church in a building every sunday - not in memorizing bible verses - its waking up everyday and asking the Creator of the Universe "what should I do today" and discovering you your own amazement that if you listen to the gentle guiding that comes to you, that your life is filled with joy and peace.

Your situations may not change. Your job may not change. Your family may not change. the world certainly will not change. But you will - you will be like a completely differnt person till oneday you will look back at the way you use to live and you wont believe that was you.

Do you need proof for that? Do you need proof that you are happy? Do you need proof that you have peace and joy in your heart? When someone tells you they love you, do you ask for proof?!

Or do you hold your arms out and accept it?

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JSocha
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Report this Post11-22-2001 09:45 PM Click Here to See the Profile for JSochaSend a Private Message to JSochaDirect Link to This Post
Voytek.

No, I don't feel empty in any way.

Just so you understand, I was baptized Roman Catholic, went to a catholic school (complete with nuns and rulers...slapped on the fingers OUCH they hurt!) for 5 out of 6 years; every morning up the stairs for the Pledge of Allegance and daily prayers and in the evenings before we went home; church on Sundays and mass every Friday at 11AM till noon before our classes headed downstairs in the church basement for our school lunch. Can you believe this?! I was even an alter boy and went to confession regularily.

Since our family was well known (since we are in a small community of 3,000 +/-), we were very good friends with our Priest's as well as the nuns. Also, since my family grew the biggest garden here in town, they came over every year and got vegetables and/or we were over at the nun's/Priest's house visiting.

Anyways, as I grew older however, my perspective on things and belief structure changed.

Also, not one follower of religion (be it Priest, Rabi, Reverend, etc.) has been able to answer several of my questions about life, starting at Adam and Eve and/or before regarding life with no mention in the bible.

As far as if my wife (or anyone else) would be sick (trying to remember what you said back on the previous page), I would pray...not to a God in specific...just hoping she (or whomever) would get better. I however, don't feel I need to believe in a God just to have "hope" for such things.

My wife believes in an afterlife, God as well as strongly believes in Angels.

I however don't. I just feel that "we are", "we live" and "we die".

One day our power cells go out...we close our eyes and we either have a moment to reflect on our lives or not and able to judge ourselves whether we had a good life (the heaven we inevitably create for our own peace of mind) or a bad life (the enivitable hell we might subsequently condem our selves too thus not leaving us in peace before the last memory fleets and everything goes black).

Profound...I know. That's why I don't talk much about it, because it does end up in contraversy at some point where somehow, somebody feels I need to be saved.

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TRiAD
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Report this Post11-22-2001 09:58 PM Click Here to See the Profile for TRiADSend a Private Message to TRiADDirect Link to This Post
I hope no one takes this wrong, but most of the people I see with that situation (had unanswerable questions, so the gave up on God) are/were Catholic.

Why is that?

Is it because Catholicism is one of the single most corrupt and "religous" (read MAN MADE) beliefs on the planet?

Is it because Catholicism has been corrupted from within so many times in the past (yes, when the Pope is on his chair, he is infallable, but here's how about a dozen of them screwed the entire God-fearing world at one time or another)?

I don't claim to have the answers, only more questions.

I would be open to try to answer your questions, however, socha. I would take several days (weeks?) researching every aspect of your question and different views on it, to give you a variety of answers, and where they all come form, as well as my own conclusions.

At any rate, all I really know is that God Created. Man fell. Christ came in the form of a man (to create a connection between God and man) and lived a blameless life. He was crucified unjustly, and rose form the dead on the third day.
In Him I have life everlasting.

Now, I do try to live at peace any time it depends on me, and I do try to improve the quality of life for those around me. Most Christians I know live by these ideals.

Anyway, that's all. Just my observations, an offer, and my statement of Faith.

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Report this Post11-22-2001 10:18 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Mach10Send a Private Message to Mach10Direct Link to This Post
C-14: Carbon 14 is formed in the upper stratosphere... Direct contact with cosmic (not necessarily solar) rays. and Carbon Dioxide. Gamma radiation and such. Plants absorb and incorporate, animals eat plants and incorporate, other animals eat other animals, and incorporate. In the case of animal remains, it's actually the date that the animal last ATE... Since MOST animals eat at least once a year, this test is appropriate
This is the kind of radiation that can and does peirce through clouds. Even covered in high-moisture, volcanic ash etc... If the earth was surrounded in a lead sheath, I would agree with this... But not a cloud of H2O... Sorry

C-14 dating is good FAR beyond 10,000 years. Currently, we can go back to about 75,000 years. However, due to the inconsistant amount of C-14 in the atmosphere, the accuracy starts to fail past this. If you look at the curve, it's a wavy diagonal line. You can get a decent idea of how old the specimen is, but not a terribly good date. On a 35ky old sample, you could be off by as much as a thousand years, one way or another.

Fossils contain MOSTLY carbon, actually. Calcium Carbonate is a big one... Although a fossil is rock, it's still organic... Also, in the case of OLDER fossils, you start using Uranium-Thorium dating (Uranium pccurs in set amounts all over the earth) and test for the resulting isotopes, either within the sample, or the surrounding rock...

Erosion: We know that there was at least ONE ice-age based on a few facts:
-No other force (excluding divine intervention) could drop 500T rocks in the middle of an otherwise empty feild but a glacier. We see evidence of glaciers all over N America... You don't get glaciers from a bad couple of winters...
-Ice-Core samples from antarctica show with great accuracy the average amount of precipitaion.
-N.America is STILL springing up like a sponge after the last one. The ice was so heavy, it depressed the land, making all the water run inland to the great lakes. It was only in the past 9,000 years or so that they started flowing out again...

As for the erosion, and Niagra Falls? Niagra dates back 10,000 years ONLY because it was flowing the OTHER way before...

Erosion is consistant across the board, not up and down it. You can dig in one spot 50m down, take a picture, then move 500km away and do the same. If you compare the photos, you will see patterns. You can match up the layers like rings on a tree. Gives you an idea of what vegetation was around, if a volcano erupted, and how dry/wet it was.


Catastrophic event: It would have to be one HELL of a meteor to do anything other than blanket the world in a 2cm layer of ash. Oh, and incidently, researchers are finding just such things in ice-layers in Antarctica. The kind of impact you are talking about would drill a hole clean through the earth. That kind of kinetic energy would most likely turn the planet into a star.
High-condesation is what causes an ice-age. You get TONS of precipitation, which cools the earth, which precipitates more, which cools... etc... Eventually, you have almost NO moisture left, a 35km tall slab of ice, and an average global temperature approaching Winnipeg.

Now, NOTHING is for certain. I can't go back 12,000years and ask the guy who made this arrowhead stuff. We have to do what we can with what we have. We don't have constants. While I say that the evidence points to the earth being several billion years old, I wasn't there. I can't say. Who knows? Maybe God will show up and prove us all wrong. Any TRUE scientist will keep an open mind about anything. You've given some good points as to how we could be wrong. I've given you some to say that we have a good reason to think we're right. Scientific theories are overturned all the time. But at the moment, this is what we have to work with.

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Mach10
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Report this Post11-22-2001 10:29 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Mach10Send a Private Message to Mach10Direct Link to This Post

Mach10

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quote
Originally posted by TRiAD:
...

ROFL!!! That's why I don't like Catholicism!

I want to point out, however, is that I DIDN'T walk out, I got sick... I came back when things started getting more civilized

I don't think catholicism is a "man-made" religion any more than any other new testament religion. Don't forget that Catholicism has been around for a LONG time. Most of the christian religions around today are break-aways (no wonder ) from the Catholic Church. Basically anyone who liked Jesus, and thought he was far more important than any old priest with a funny hat... Or thought that perhaps weaving people onto cart-wheels wasn't the best way of converting people...

I'll be the first to admit that the Catholic church has had it's fair share of problems. Corruptibility in the middle ages, a pagent for meddling in politics, and this fascination of a ruling high-priest... But it WAS here way before most of the recognised Judaeo-Christian religions...

But that doesn necessarily make it any more or less valid as a faith. God and Jesus are the important bits... Not the name of your church.

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Report this Post11-22-2001 10:33 PM Click Here to See the Profile for CooterSend a Private Message to CooterDirect Link to This Post
If carbon dating is so accurate, then why does the head of a dinosaur date thousands of years older than his tail?
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Mach10
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Report this Post11-22-2001 10:38 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Mach10Send a Private Message to Mach10Direct Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Cooter:
If carbon dating is so accurate, then why does the head of a dinosaur date thousands of years older than his tail?

I didn't say it was that accurate. Beyond about 75,000 years, it starts to see-saw. It is still reasonably accurate ... But in a 4.5MYO dino bone? thousands of years represents FRACTIONS of error... 5000 years is 0.11%

That's pretty damn accurate

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firstfiero
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Report this Post11-22-2001 10:59 PM Click Here to See the Profile for firstfieroSend a Private Message to firstfieroDirect Link to This Post
Man... I'm sorry I missed this one. I tried to read as much as possible and I think I got the general gist. Anyway I have a perspective I don't believe I've seen mentioned... I was raised a Mormon. I got my girlfriend pregnant at the age of 16 and was excamunicated for having a child out of wed lock. Any way I have some observations from what I've read

1)Someone made the coment that man wrote the bible but he was controlled by god. Here's why I have a problem with that. Mormons believe in the bible of course but they also believe in the book of Mormon. The book of mormon was found by joseph smith after by the Angel Moroniah (I know I screwed up the spelling) who showed him where the gold tablets were and gave him the ability to read them. I feel it's bunk pure and simple. And that's why I can't read King james version of the bible as the exact words of god. Ya want to read the true word....read the dead sea scrolls.

2)believeing in God is fine. If it's makes you feel better as a person great! It's religion that scares the hell out of me. Were currnetly condemming the Talaban for killing in the name of their religion but Christians of killed far more in the name of christianity then they ever have. I believe in god and certanly don't think this was one big accident but I avoid religion as the money making,scare tactic useing BUSINESS that it is.

As I said as a child I was made to do some pretty odd things like baptisms for the dead. Theirs a story for ya! So I'm sure that has scarred my views.
And about this harry potter thing. I brought up my kids (9 and 12) with the commen sense that what is on the movie screen is phantasy and fun. Nothing more...Nothing less. Thats probobly what I hate most about christians. If they don't like it then they immediatly pass judgement on anyone that does.
Finnaly a joke for ya..
Jesus and moses are sitting on a beach.
Moses says "I wonder if I still got it?" He walks down to the water raises his hands in the air and the sea devides. He brings them back together and the sea collapses. So the jesus says "I wonder if I still got it" So he walks down to the water and tries to step out on to it to walk across it and falls right in. After several attempts at this he walks back dejected and says "I don't get it I used to have that one down cold!" and Moses says "Was that befor or after you got the holes in your feet?"

I know I'm going to hell! Anyway good conversation guys with alot of good info!

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maryjane
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Report this Post11-22-2001 11:08 PM Click Here to See the Profile for maryjaneSend a Private Message to maryjaneDirect Link to This Post
should have named this thread Harry Potter must go....on & on & on &on.
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JSocha
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Report this Post11-22-2001 11:35 PM Click Here to See the Profile for JSochaSend a Private Message to JSochaDirect Link to This Post
WOW!

I firmly "believe" this will make it to 5 pages in no time! And I have "faith" in everyone that they can do it!

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PFF
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Report this Post11-23-2001 04:45 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Return of FieroSend a Private Message to Return of FieroDirect Link to This Post
you know, i was hoping to advert the who religion thing with my coment about the kids out the window. BTW, none of my kids have tried it yet, but im still hoping!!!!!! back to reality, why is it we seem to seeth on the religion thing? (bong needs to be cleaned.... harry potter) i mean, everytime it gets started, it apears to be the SAME argument over and over with a few different twists and turns. (kids took my broom out the window) you know, if we wanted to get into the religion thing, i could open a string that is listed as "Religous Battlefield", and you could all go nuts. (worshiping the Fiero god) just a thought (oh lord Fiero, bring peace to all non-belivers so they can walk the path of the Fiero like all your loyal parishiners. Fiero god, grant me the power to convert these siners to the way of the Fiero) is this silly enough to show you where this is going?
seems like symantics to me.

A very silly,
Myke

ps
the thread is about a kids movie, if you all have forgoten by now.

pps
SMILE EVERYONE!!!!!!

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Flamberge
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Report this Post11-23-2001 05:32 AM Click Here to See the Profile for FlambergeSend a Private Message to FlambergeDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by firstfiero:
Thats probobly what I hate most about christians. If they don't like it then they immediatly pass judgement on anyone that does.

So does every other religion, person with an ideal, culture, etc. more or less. Why else is this thread 4 pages long (so far?)

Actually, no one is really passing judgement. But maybe they are disagreeing with other people.

I am Mormon, and while "Baptisms for the Dead" and other Mormon beliefs might seem to be "bunk" by you, (which is cool, if that is how you feel,) the LDS church *is* 10 million members strong. And that is in spite of the bad press the LDS church gets. Interested in what we believe, everyone? www.mormon.org.

I wasn't raised in the church. I was raised German Lutheran. But at 22 I converted. That was 4 years ago. I haven't looked back once. HOWEVER I feel that everyone needs to go down their own path. As for you being excommunicated, I would guess other Christian churches would frown on premarital sex too? At least the two I have been a part of. But even so, your choices are your choices, and while not right for my own life, they are right for yours. For that I congratulate you. Not everyone can vocalize their most central beliefs to the world. (This is difficult for me.) But it helps to read every statement in every thread with the preceeding words "in my opinion." Since everything said here is just that person's opinion (except for the factual stuff, but I am talking about interpreting the data.)

I have tried so hard to stay out of this thread, but here I am. Sorry all. We all have free agency, and in the end, we will all end up dead. Where we go after that is up to the person who has a ticket (admit 1) to the realm of the "living?-not-so-much, thank-you."

I think this thread is actually pretty civilized and teaming with intelligent debating.

Neither science, nor religion, run by man, is infallible. Religions, every kind, is always dependant on human leadership. But the best religions will be the ones that have an organization set up that can effectively remove (or buffer) the human Homer Simpson Factor. Science is this way too.

Not too long ago, a few years (nothing in the geological time ) a tourist observed the sphynx in Egypt and took a picture of it to a geologist. "What does this look like?" he asked, showing the side of the sphynx, masking what it was. The geologist said "A textbook example of water erosion. Why?" This launched a huge debate (and opposition) by Egyptologists whose life-long theories were on the line. The water erosion showed the sphynx was much older than the Egyptologists had guessed. They weren't happy.

Also, what happens to astronomers who get "too" interested in alien life? They tend to get blacklisted. Remember the astronomers who argued about the Cydonia Mensae region of Mars during the early 80s? Where are they now?

I am not anti-science, and I believe that someway, somehow, all the questions will be answered in the end. Everything from the flood and the age of the earth to free agency. For now, however, we don't have all the information. Science doesn't know everything there is to know. Religion only covers the intagible (if you aren't religious,) so ultimately it is up to everyone to decide what they believe. It is tempting to be quick to jump to a conclusion, but the fact is, we don't know everything there is to know about everything. Science has a long way to go before it understands more about things. That is why the phrase "law" is used with such respectfulness in the world of science (in the circles I have been visitor to.) Most things are only theory. Even if they can be proven, they still remain theory most of the time.

"1500 years ago *everyone KNEW* the earth of the center of the universe. 500 years ago *everyone KNEW* the earth was flat, and 15 minutes ago you *knew* that we were alone in the universe. Imagine what you'll know...tomorrow." - Agent K, MIB


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firstfiero
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Report this Post11-23-2001 09:58 AM Click Here to See the Profile for firstfieroSend a Private Message to firstfieroDirect Link to This Post
The mormon religion is a cult. No more no less. It's an exclusive white rich person's club. Let me give you another one of their wonderful beliefs. They believe that when the battle between satan and god broke out that we were devided into 3 groups. The people that fought with god were sent to earth as white people, The people sent to hell were the people who fought against him and the lazy people who wouldn't fight were sent to earth as black people. Gee I wonder why black and hispanic people lasted at our church for all of about a month befor they disapeared. lol It's all about the money to the mormons. Have you ever been apart of a church that not only expects you to pay 10 percent tithing but calls you in at the end of the year to go over how much you paid and how much you still owe! The only thing I can really say good about the mormon religion is that at least they didn't kill in the name of their religion. They moved to utah to escape persucution and just be left alone to follow their beliefs. I truly believe the Mormon religion is a cult. That being said it is a peaceful religion that doesn't hurt anyone. Oh well...I realize that you'll deny everything I just said and thats fine. From spending 17 years in the church I know what I say is true and I learned a long time ago not to argue with someone over religious beliefs.

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firstfiero
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Report this Post11-23-2001 10:31 AM Click Here to See the Profile for firstfieroSend a Private Message to firstfieroDirect Link to This Post

firstfiero

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Some of the chic religious comics I think use to many scare tactics but I posted the one for the mormon religion. It gives you a good idea of what they believe in.

http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0061/0061_01.asp

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Voytek
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Report this Post11-23-2001 10:54 AM Click Here to See the Profile for VoytekSend a Private Message to VoytekDirect Link to This Post
JSocha - I think you need to be saved.

Triad - for the most part, this thread stayed away from pointing out which religions are wrong and which are right.

FYI - the Catholic church has over 1 BILLION worshippers, worldwide. That may explain why they have the most corrupt members. If you take, for example, your local United Church, you'll find corruption just as well, but much lower, proportionately to the number of members. PEOPLE ARE PEOPLE. To obtain this number of members, the Catholic church must have done SOMETHING right. Listening to you, one would think it's all been bad.

I don't know much about other Christian religions (or ones that claim to be Christian). We do, however, have some Mormon friends (and have had a few of them in the past). I can tell you this: many of them are just as de-generated as any other church-goers. Unfortunately that's just the way it is.

I certainly wouldn't be going around PFF passing judgments about churches. The discussion was about whether God exists (and about Carbon dating, etc.)

If a religion doesn't suit you, you shouldn't bash it - just don't join it. Just like we are told it is wrong to judge Islam based on the actions of a few fanatics.

Just a friendly pointer.

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TRiAD
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Report this Post11-23-2001 11:10 AM Click Here to See the Profile for TRiADSend a Private Message to TRiADDirect Link to This Post
Again, this comes back to people thinking I'm bashing other religions. Did you read my entire posts? Did you read everyone else's?

MY BELIEF (Christianity) is that we are right, and that these other beliefs are wrong. I'm not shouting at anyone saying convert or die! am I?

Mormons believe that THEY are right.

Wiccan's believe THEY are right (actually, the views mentioned hewre are more like "we have no regular belief, just that organized religion is wrong", but whatever)

So when I state that Islamic people aren't Christians (which was a sarcastic and laughable assumption anyway) because they don't believe in the Diety of Christ, or call on His Name for their salvation, that it my belief. (which is backed by the Bible)

So, quit hounding me for my beliefs, and I'll continue not trying to convert anyone here.

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Report this Post11-23-2001 11:37 AM Click Here to See the Profile for NealClick Here to visit Neal's HomePageSend a Private Message to NealDirect Link to This Post
I think for a topic disscusing religion were doing really well at discussing and not flaming.

Somthing else to think about, in a different post i mentioned a theory but couldn't remember the name, well its "Religious Pluralism". The idea that god is at the center and he has "many faces" or in other words many paths to reach him. Also it is said god created people in his image and there are many different looking people, giving validity to the theory. The theory will look at all the major world religions as being accepable to god, just one of his many faces. However cults, witchcraft and the like will never realize god. It is a VERY interesting theory that is worth reading up on.


Also, ive been holding back on this but no more. I see religion as accomplishing 3 major tasks, 1) explaining the unknown 2) providing guidence through life 3) hope after death (yes i know it does more than this but for the sake of argument). Now many people will say religion isnt valid because of science, but science can explain the unknown, not compleatly but were working on it. Now im a FULL supporter of science, but where is the life guidence and the hope in science...

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Report this Post11-23-2001 12:23 PM Click Here to See the Profile for VoytekSend a Private Message to VoytekDirect Link to This Post
Um, Triad - are you talking to me? I didn't accuse you of saying 'convert or die'. Well, maybe you're not referring to me...

 
quote
Is it because Catholicism is one of the single most corrupt and "religous" (read MAN MADE) beliefs on the planet?

This is all I was talking about.

In any case, if someone was 'hounding' you, I'm sorry to hear that. I just don't appreciate blunt and unsubstantiated opinions like the one above.

Just like some were bashing Mormons. Not my kind of religion but I don't think it's right to put it down, and definitely not here on PFF.

In any case, I enjoy a good debate as long as you don't start throwing around accusations.

Neal - good points.

May the force be with you.

[This message has been edited by Voytek (edited 11-23-2001).]

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Report this Post11-23-2001 01:34 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Jaygee79Send a Private Message to Jaygee79Direct Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by JohnnyK:
Second, please don't be rude to someone because they disagree with you..

easy to tell someone else that, huh

sorry, this thread has stayed away from flaming, i guess i'm not helping much

[This message has been edited by Jaygee79 (edited 11-23-2001).]

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Report this Post11-23-2001 01:39 PM Click Here to See the Profile for DaRkLoRDSend a Private Message to DaRkLoRDDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Flamberge:
Also, what happens to astronomers who get "too" interested in alien life? They tend to get blacklisted. Remember the astronomers who argued about the Cydonia Mensae region of Mars during the early 80s? Where are they now?

Richard Hoagland, former NASA consultant http://www.enterprisemission.com/
Michael Bara http://www.lunaranomalies.com/
(I think that's the right URL for Mike Bara.)

I'm not sure what happened to the others, and I can't even remember any other names at the moment...

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Report this Post11-23-2001 05:24 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Ken WittliefSend a Private Message to Ken WittliefDirect Link to This Post
ok I understand better about c14 dating now - but Im still under the impression that the atmosphere sheilds the earth from MOST radiation from the sun and the cosmos - so Im still under the impression that more atmosphere would provide more sheilding and hence C14 dating would be screwed up.

or is it the Van allen belts, caused by the easths magnetic fields that is the sheild - in which case - a change in that could affect the amount of C14.

Im not on a quest to convince everyone that C14 dating is invalid - more that sciecne assumes things have always been more or less the same - they base their conclusions on this - so if the assumtion is wrong their conclusions are wrong.

Im curious if anyone has any idea how the religions of the world could be tested or examined to determine which one is the 'right' one. It seems odd that God would tell people on one side of the earth one thing, and tell others something very different - so they cant all be correct.

also, why are so many people so fond of saying that christians have killed millions of people in the name of their religion?! People have killed billions of people - humans kill each other - its a sad fact of our nature - I dont think christians have been the only ones doing the killing.

Look at WW2 - 60 MILLION people dead. Which religion should we pin that on?! Did americans kill germans and the Japanese because of our religious beliefs - that men should be free?

As far as I know there have never been any religious killings in the United States stemming from any large scale organized religious group. Before you bring up witches in salem - that was not the US - at the time it was a colony of England.

I think in many ways the United States has lived up to many of the ideas that Jesus preached - and has grown and prosperd - as a result maybe?

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Report this Post11-23-2001 05:37 PM Click Here to See the Profile for TRiADSend a Private Message to TRiADDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by TRiAD:
...Could it be because Catholicism is one of the most corrupt and "religious" (read MAN MADE) beliefs on the planet? ....

 
quote
Originally posted by Voytek:
...I just don't appreciate blunt and unsubstantiated opinions like the one above....


I understand. However, the worship of the saints and of mary, and of the Pope, in the place of Christ, is nothing short of idolatry. (praying to the saints, praying to mary, Pope infallability, "mary sightings", the belief that mary died virginal in spite of Christ's younger siblings, etc, etc...)

The "rituals" and precepts are also nothing if not man made.

These are aspects of catholicism that directly reflect the beliefs it was supposed to have "overthrown" in Rome. The Pharisees and Saducees (sp?) were teachers of man's law, not God's, and I find it ironic that religion replaced religion, but the falsity (religiosity) remined the same.

These are simply my views, as someone who believes in a living, approachable God, who was once VERY upset with "the teachers of the law", and Whom I suspect still is.

It's not meant as a flame, or to specifically tear-down a specific belief, these are just where that belief and mine differ...greatly.

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Report this Post11-23-2001 05:46 PM Click Here to See the Profile for maryjaneSend a Private Message to maryjaneDirect Link to This Post
For Ken: Get ready for it, regarding WWII. It has been brought up several times by non-believers that Hitler was raised a Catholic and because of that upbringing, the Catholic Church is somehow responsible for his madness. Go figure.
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Report this Post11-23-2001 06:17 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ray bSend a Private Message to ray bDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Ken Wittlief:
ok I understand better about c14 dating now - but Im still under the impression that the atmosphere sheilds the earth from MOST radiation from the sun and the cosmos - so Im still under the impression that more atmosphere would provide more sheilding and hence C14 dating would be screwed up.

ON THE BOTTOM NOT ON THE UPPER PART

or is it the Van allen belts, caused by the easths magnetic fields that is the sheild - in which case - a change in that could affect the amount of C14.

Im not on a quest to convince everyone that C14 dating is invalid - more that sciecne assumes things have always been more or less the same - they base their conclusions on this - so if the assumtion is wrong their conclusions are wrong.


C-14 DATES ARE RUFF NOT EXACT AND HAVE A RANGE + OR - BUT CAN BE CHECKED BUT OTHER WAYS TO DATE AGREE MOSTLY

Im curious if anyone has any idea how the religions of the world could be tested or examined to determine which one is the 'right' one. It seems odd that God would tell people on one side of the earth one thing, and tell others something very different - so they cant all be correct.

MORE GOOD WORKS AND LESS EVIL ACTS RESPECT FOR OTHERS WAYS OF LIFE WITHOUT TRYING TO CONTROL OR CONVERT THEM.

also, why are so many people so fond of saying that christians have killed millions of people in the name of their religion?! People have killed billions of people - humans kill each other - its a sad fact of our nature - I dont think christians have been the only ones doing the killing.

NO JUST THE MOST ACTIVE WITH THE HIGHEST BODY COUNT

Look at WW2 - 60 MILLION people dead. Which religion should we pin that on?! Did americans kill germans and the Japanese because of our religious beliefs - that men should be free?

GERMAN NAZI TANKS AND PLANES ALL HAD THE CROSS ON THEM AND ALL NAZI'S WERE CHRISTIAN AND KILLED JEWS, GAYS AND GPYIES FOR THE PURE CHRISTIAN NATION AS A GOAL.WAR WITH GODLESS COMMIES WAS PART OF PLAN FROM DAY ONE.

As far as I know there have never been any religious killings in the United States stemming from any large scale organized religious group. Before you bring up witches in salem - that was not the US - at the time it was a colony of England.

MORMAN'S DIED BEFORE THEY RAN AWAY TO UTAH KILLED BY USA CHRISTIANS.

KKK HATED AND KILLED JEWS AND CATHLIC'S IN ADDITION TO BLACKS ALL KKK MEMBERS WERE CHRISTIANS OR NOT ALLOWED IN.
50'S RED SCARE WAS BACKED BY CHRISTIANS
AS WAS GAY WITCH HUNTS FLA RAN INTO LATE 60'S AGAINST TEACHERS AND COLLAGE STUDENTS AND GOV WORKERS RUN BY CHRISTIANS.

I think in many ways the United States has lived up to many of the ideas that Jesus preached - and has grown and prosperd - as a result maybe?


FOUNDING FATHERS WERE MOSTLY DEIST NOT CHRISTIANS B F, G W , T J, T P, J A .
LACKING CARE FOR POOR BUT JC THOUGHT THAT MOST IMPORTANT!!!!!
MORE LIKE RICH MAN TRYING TO FORCE CAMEL THRU EYE OF NEEDLE USEING HI-TEC!!!!!

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Question wonder and be wierd

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Report this Post11-23-2001 06:53 PM Click Here to See the Profile for TRiADSend a Private Message to TRiADDirect Link to This Post
The "Founding Fathers" argument never set well with me, either.

It's well known that MANY of them were Freemasons. Washington was a 52nd level Master mason when elected.

This is why we have Osiris, (the eye, sign of an Egyptian god) on our dollar bill, and why D.C. was originally laid out in the shape of the "compass and square", the Masonic symbol.

To this day, they don't allow black members, and are still BANNED in most countries, including England, as of about the nid 1700's. (Tell me again why they wanted seperation from England?)

BTW, Mormonism was founded by a Mason, as well. Interesting bit of trivia there...

If you're not sure what the Masonic Lodge is, try this on for size...another cult. More specifically, a "Luciferian Organization". Their lower levels appeal to the "good nature" of people, associating with movements like the Shriners (another "secret society" with interesting core beliefs) and other "good works".
They claim to be NOT a religious organization, and accept all manner of other religious followers into their fold.
They even try to recruit young people, with "Job's Daughters" for high-school girls, and "Demalay" for the boys, and the adult women have "Eastern Star", their symbol? A pentagram with other symbols in it.
It's only after your "initiation" (once also used for the early presidents) and after you've reached upper levels (after taking "bloody oaths") that you're allowed your own copy of the book of the Masonic Lodge.
It details how Adonai is the god of darkness, and Lucifer is the god of light. It also details MANY other deities, rites, rituals, etc.
Oh, it also details the manner in which you will DIE if you reveal any secrets of the Masonic Temple. (It's an old satanic execution ritual). Brigham Young was a Mason, and attempted to have the book published outside of the Lodge, and was executed in this very manner.

There are VERY close ties between most law enforcement and fire-fighting "fraternal orders" and the masonic Lodge, as well.

Don't know where this is leading, except don't buy into the righteousness of the founding fathers, they had alterior motives.

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Report this Post11-23-2001 08:21 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ray bSend a Private Message to ray bDirect Link to This Post
SORRY TRIAD BUT NOT SATAN BUT MURATHA THE GOD OF THE ROMAN ARMY BELIFE THAT CHRISTIAN STOLD THE MAJOR HOLIDAY FROM
LIKE SOL INVICTUS 12-25 HOLIDAY
AND FESTIVAL OF ESTER IN SPRING [EASTER]
ALLSO TOOK REINCARNATION AND ETERNAL LIFE FROM THEM. BUT MISSED MAIN TRUTH ABOUT PROGRESSION OF THE EQUINOX.
MY DAD WAS A 33rd degree member and thats as hi as they go in the shrine.
shrine is top club in masonic order
but none of them belive in it most member are christian.
it is just BS in old rights only used for new members.
only thing they worship is booze and beer!!!
not blood more weird BS at local country clubs than in masons.
and not banned in england as english royals are/were members maybe in past was banned but not inforced accept in very cathloic places or very long anyway.

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[This message has been edited by ray b (edited 11-23-2001).]

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Report this Post11-23-2001 10:46 PM Click Here to See the Profile for DaRkLoRDSend a Private Message to DaRkLoRDDirect Link to This Post
TRiAD, you are correct about the Masons... there was an EXCELLENT article written about 6 weeks ago that had the history of the masons, how they related to the ancient knights templar, and how it was related to islam throughout history. masons are still very much in control of many important functions of the us government.

there's more to this than most people are aware of.... email me if you'd like to discuss this some more, I have some interesting website links you might be interested in!!

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Report this Post11-23-2001 11:06 PM Click Here to See the Profile for DaRkLoRDSend a Private Message to DaRkLoRDDirect Link to This Post

DaRkLoRD

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hmm, my post was rather poorly worded... too tired to fix it.. d@mn long day...

anyway, what I meant by "related to islam", is it mentioned several battles between the templar knights and islamic warriors, or their ancestors, whatever... too tired to remember correctly.

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Report this Post11-23-2001 11:40 PM Click Here to See the Profile for TRiADSend a Private Message to TRiADDirect Link to This Post
Thanks for the backup Darklord; Ray thinks that since his daddy is a member of a secret society, he knows all about them.

You know? Ray seems to have interesting points as well every once in a while, too bad he posts in all caps and in broken jibberish...I'd like to actually have some idea of what he's saying sometime...or maybe it's better this way.

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Report this Post11-24-2001 12:02 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Ken WittliefSend a Private Message to Ken WittliefDirect Link to This Post
An interesting note on Christmas - everyone knows the bible doenst state what day of the year Jesus was born - and that Christmas was 'stolen' from the winter soltice.

But recently someone did take note that Jesus cousin - John - his birth was documented and referenced to that of Jesus.

The interesting part is that Johns father was a priest, and the name of his family is given - and the priests served in the temple in a long sequence based on their family - a tradition that is still followed today, or at least they still know whos 'turn' it is today.

So - given that Johns father was serving in the temple (when he lost his voice) and you can go back and figure out what months he would have been 'on duty', and based on what year it is believe Jesus was born, and the time references from the birth of John to that of Jesus. If you follow the logic it all makes sense and it is all traceable.

it is now believed that Jesus was actually born in late september - in fact I think they have an actual date, but I dont remember what it is.

So Christmas should really be in late september.

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Report this Post11-24-2001 12:27 AM Click Here to See the Profile for TRiADSend a Private Message to TRiADDirect Link to This Post
VERY cool!

So, let's trace this for sure, and begin a petition to move it, so pagans can quit whining that "we" stole their holiday.

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Report this Post11-24-2001 12:56 AM Click Here to See the Profile for DRHSend a Private Message to DRHDirect Link to This Post
I've often wondered how Santa Claus, a magical elf, and the Easter Bunny, an enchanted rabbit, manage to peacefully coexist with the celebrations of Christ's birth and resurrection. I know some of the more conservative Christian churches frown on them, but for the most part they are accepted. Where are the Harry Potter type protests???

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Report this Post11-24-2001 01:46 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Joe TormaClick Here to visit Joe Torma's HomePageSend a Private Message to Joe TormaDirect Link to This Post
Whoohoo...My first superthread!
And nothing about my original post!

Moronic Movie Goers
Religion
Carbon dating
Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny?!

Good stuff!
[exit]leaving the fire-doors open on the way out..

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Report this Post11-24-2001 02:15 AM Click Here to See the Profile for FlambergeSend a Private Message to FlambergeDirect Link to This Post
That isn't what the Mormon church believes...the thirds thing. *shrug* Anyway, you're right, I will deny what you have said as the truth as I believe it. I am a Latter-Day Saint, and I am telling you I do not believe the things you have said Mormons believe. I know you grew up in the church. Are your parents/brothers/sisters still members? Just wondering.

As for it being a cult...it is not. Unless believing in Jesus Christ as the atoning savior of the world is a cult. I respect that you don't believe in the church, but please respect my beliefs in same. I'm not asking you - or anyone else here - to believe what I believe. But saying "they believe this" is astounding to me when it comes from someone who is (at best) rusty in his Mormon theology.

And as for blacks and hispanics...they outnumber whites in the LDS church. More than half the church is outside the US, mostly in south america and africa.

And the LDS church is not the only church that wants some kind of tithe or offering. It is in the bible. Most protestant churches have a collection plate: same thing. They don't check to see if you are paying an honest tithe, but the LDS church does. Absolutely. But so what? I pay 10% of my earnings (which as a college student is pretty small) but have NEVER had money problems, even when I feel like I might have to do without. I never do. And the 10% is the first thing to go out of my paycheck.

Look, I am not trying to be rude, not at all. I am just trying to stand up for what I believe, and would like people to respect that.

One more thing I believe: All of us, every human under the sky, are all brothers and sisters. I believe it and know it.

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Report this Post11-24-2001 02:18 AM Click Here to See the Profile for JSochaSend a Private Message to JSochaDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Voytek:
JSocha - I think you need to be saved.

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Report this Post11-24-2001 04:00 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Mach10Send a Private Message to Mach10Direct Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Ken Wittlief:
ok I understand better about c14 dating now - but Im still under the impression that the atmosphere sheilds the earth from MOST radiation from the sun and the cosmos - so Im still under the impression that more atmosphere would provide more sheilding and hence C14 dating would be screwed up.

or is it the Van allen belts, caused by the easths magnetic fields that is the sheild - in which case - a change in that could affect the amount of C14.

Im not on a quest to convince everyone that C14 dating is invalid - more that sciecne assumes things have always been more or less the same - they base their conclusions on this - so if the assumtion is wrong their conclusions are wrong.

Im curious if anyone has any idea how the religions of the world could be tested or examined to determine which one is the 'right' one. It seems odd that God would tell people on one side of the earth one thing, and tell others something very different - so they cant all be correct.

also, why are so many people so fond of saying that christians have killed millions of people in the name of their religion?! People have killed billions of people - humans kill each other - its a sad fact of our nature - I dont think christians have been the only ones doing the killing.

Look at WW2 - 60 MILLION people dead. Which religion should we pin that on?! Did americans kill germans and the Japanese because of our religious beliefs - that men should be free?

As far as I know there have never been any religious killings in the United States stemming from any large scale organized religious group. Before you bring up witches in salem - that was not the US - at the time it was a colony of England.

I think in many ways the United States has lived up to many of the ideas that Jesus preached - and has grown and prosperd - as a result maybe?

Good points, almost all of them... I only wish to correct on one point. When C-14 dating was first discovered, it was assumed that it was a constant. Nowadays, we know MUCH better. The amount of C-14 depends on a host of different variables... Precipitation, climate, atmospheric changes, orbit around sun, visiting comets, nearby supernovas etc...
What happens NOW is that we have a calibration scale through which we have been able to track the changes. Dendrochronology, U-T dating, K dating... To accurately date a sample, you run a whole schlack of tests, and take the mean. It'll be off, but only by a few hundred (or thousand, depending on age/sample). How do I know this? I'm cramming for my Archaeology mid-term on Monday You guys are ACTUALLY helping me study

Other than that, the point is well taken. Science DOES take a lot of things for granted.

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Report this Post11-24-2001 04:10 AM Click Here to See the Profile for GarethWrightSend a Private Message to GarethWrightDirect Link to This Post
well, I almost hate to be the one to jerk this back to some version of the stated topic, but I went and saw Harry Potter today, and really enjoyed it. I have also read the book, and enjoyed it too.
Get used to having H.P. around, theres a second in the works now, with 5 more after that planned, one to be released every year. They are making them as fast as they can before the stars age too much. If you haven't seen the movie (which does a really good job of sticking to the book) or read the book, I recommend them. Keep in mind though, its only a story
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Report this Post11-24-2001 04:53 AM Click Here to See the Profile for maryjaneSend a Private Message to maryjaneDirect Link to This Post
Huh? What was that last thing you said? Only a story? You mean this ain't even about a real person??? Great gobs of geronimo
gravy!! nearly 5 pages-100+ replys and now THIS? I GOTTA start payin attention. I think I missed Thanksgiving.......goodnight.
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Report this Post11-24-2001 08:40 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Ken WittliefSend a Private Message to Ken WittliefDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by JSocha:

its the ones that protest the most "I dont need/want to be saved" those are the ones that are cryingout for someone to save them

:c)


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