I could present an argument that the Bible MUST be a factual book taken in it's plain, literal sense that would stand up in any court. You don't have to take it "on faith", or "just believe".

2 issues, though. First of all, I would INSIST on having explicit permission AHEAD of time with a person to discuss it, because I don't want to offend someone or their right to not have it pushed on them, "shoved down their throat", etc. pick your own expression.

Second of all, even if I COULD prove it, would some of you then base your actions in life on it and if necessary, change your behavior? Honestly?

*silently buckling up*

Megalomaniac - as in, they give they impression that they believe they are gifted, more important, some how singled out to be a part of their religion.

It also seems to be the way people are recruited into the group - they are told they are special - you have a strong intuition, or you have more ______ than most people.

Ive also seen the attitude in people I know who were pegged as genius as a child, and sent to a special school for the gifted. By the time they are 18 they think they are Gods gift to humanity.

Am I the only one that has perceived this attitude in 'witches' ?

Can't honestly say that i've ever met one.

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Joe

quote Originally posted by frontal lobe: I could present an argument that the Bible MUST be a factual book taken in it's plain, literal sense that would stand up in any court. You don't have to take it "on faith", or "just believe".

Honestly, I would like to see this evidence. If taken literally the bible will contradict science on many occasions. Simply put if you interpret the bible literally you cannot believe in science. The facts science presents are much more tangible and real to the times than the bible is.
Also during history the bible has been continually reinterpreted by the church, to accommodate for changes in society... (meaning most Christian churches recognize science, therefore defending the literal interpretation of the bible wont fly)

This is not meant as a flame, im actually very interested how you would argue that case.

this is starting to get old people. it has degenerated into people repeating the same arguments over and over again.
religion is *only* valid to those that follow the same teachings. to everyone else, it's a bunch of repetitious, fundamentalist dogma. this goes for *every* religion except for maybe Taoism...
can we agree on that? let's drop the whole religion thing and go back to talking about cars, brittany Spears, and other *important* subjects

She sure gets around....

Is is me, or is she getting "rounder" by the week

Plastic girl meets plastic car?

Neal,

I didn't take it as a flame. Those are very legitimate questions that you have there.

I love science. I've certainly had enough of it: 5 years of college and 4 years of post-graduate.

I also love the Bible. I have read it cover to cover approximately 20 times. Although it is not intended to be a science book, it is scientifically accurate in EVERY instance. Although it is not intended to be a history book, it is historically accurate in EVERY instance. Verifiable by SECULAR science and history.

I wouldn't trust much of what "christian" churches believe, or say they believe. Many are "christian" by self-declaration only, and not practice.

I'll try to get something concise out to you by e-mail this week. Thanksgiving in U.S., you know.

To the rest of you on the forum, I really don't mind at all if you reject the Bible as true. I don't treat you any differently because you don't. I consider you acquaintances and friends and enjoy our contact together on the forum.

It does make me sad, though, when I can tell that someone is rejecting hearsay or error ABOUT the Bible, and not the Bible itself. But let me reiterate: I have tried to be RESPECTFUL of people on the forum and not engage in attempting to "correct" these things unless specifically requested.

Thanks, guys.

Lobe,
I would be very interested in your proof. Feel free to email it to me when you have it ready. Please cite your sources. I'd love to cross check them. I am geniunely interested. And thank you.

quote Originally posted by frontal lobe: [B] I love science. I've certainly had enough of it: 5 years of college and 4 years of post-graduate. ?????JIM JONES U ???? I also love the Bible. I have read it cover to cover approximately 20 times. Although it is not intended to be a science book, it is scientifically accurate in EVERY instance. Although it is not intended to be a history book, it is historically accurate in EVERY instance. Verifiable by SECULAR science and history. WHILE I AGREE COVER TO COVER IS BEST FOR FLOW AND CONTEXT, I QUESTION SCIENCE AS TO DATES, LIFE AGES, 800, 900 AND 1000 YEAR OLD MEN???? AGE OF EARTH?????ACCURATE????? B S !! LIKE STOPING THE SUN IN THE SKY OR A WORLD WIDE FLOOD???? NEVER HAPPENED CAN'T HAPPPEN!! AND HISTORY IS WORSE NO REAL DATES OR PHAOROH NAMES USED. NO RECORDS OF RED SEA ARMY LOST OR JEWS IN EGYPT OR IN HOLY LANDS INTILL 1000 YEARS AFTER CLAIMED KINGDOM. I wouldn't trust much of what "christian" churches believe, or say they believe. Many are "christian" by self-declaration only, and not practice. AGREE BUT THINK IT IS ALL NOT MANY ]

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Question wonder and be wierd

ray b,

You gave me a good laugh there, bud. No, not Jim Jones or Bob Jones University!

I actually went to U. of Iowa, and then U. of Illinois.

I only mentioned the reading of the Bible through cover to cover about 20 times (it's actually more, but I wanted to be careful not to exaggerate) so you would realize that I took part of your advice: question. I don't know if I've followed the "be wierd" part! I had to read it myself as the "christian" message I was getting was inconsistent or poorly substantiated.

All I am saying to you guys is, Hey, you've got a brain. Here is something that I have researched MYSELF and found. IF you want to consider it, great, I'll PRIVATELY e-mail it to you. I would do it publicly, but if I did that, then I would not have express permission from too many people and so don't want to unnecessarily offend anyone (i.e. "pushy").

So no problem, formula88. I'll make out a concise little presentation with the references and e-mail you and Neal.

Hey frontal!

Since of course I'm not religious, and perhaps condemming myself because of my own personal beliefs and since you have read it so many times from cover to cover...I'm just wondering if you yourself have came across any "loopholes" that would per chance help somebody like me without religious beliefs get off the hook so I can get by when that time comes and I find out somehow I was wrong all along?

Well as Ray B states in his signature: "Question wonder and be wierd"

Well...I'm questioning...wondering...and just being plain a$$ wierd! hehehehe

Frontal Lobe, if you wouldn't mind, I'd like to se the email as well.. I've also researched this stuff, and found it to be very interesting, even though not from a religious viewpoint.

p.s. there's enough evidence to indicate that there was a large flood about 13,000 years ago, though obviously not over the entire planet. (just the areas where the people who wrote the bible lived...)

thanks!

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steve@fieroproject.com
http://www.fieroproject.com

Ken: That is where you are TOTALLY wrong. Scientists would LOVE to find proof of a god. It would answer a lot of questions. If they found proof, they would be the first to make it known. However, if religions found proof that there was no god, and it was only science, do you think they would let that be known?
To sum it up, science is looking for the answers, wether there be a god or not. Religion will never admit there is no god, even if that were the truth.

johnnyk,

I just want you to know that I didn't have any personal bias one way or the other when I started to try to answer some questions of life. I wasn't interested in religion, I was just interested in REALITY. I'm a big boy. I can face reality. I just didn't know what it was, and was getting conflicting opinions-with BIAS on both sides as you accurately pointed out. So that's why I had to roll up my sleeves, and do some investigation, and decide for myself.

JSocha, yes, buddy, I do know the "loopholes", but I can't give them to you by e-mail unless you expressly give me permission to send them to you. So let me know here or by e-mail.

frontal--I have no problem with being emailed...unless of course it conflicts with you or within the loopholes you have found that there is a detailed "postmortem audit" that I would be subjected to and/or required to undergo. Since I don't quite have all my spiratual paperwork in order and therefore I would probably be severly penalized at the Pearly Gates Auditing Office after such deliquencies have been found out.

ok now everyone has lost me completely!

Science delibrately IGNORES the issues of God and religion - the basis of science is cause and effect - test and results - trial and error - scientists are only interested in things they can repeat in the lab and verfiy.

And excellent example of this is when you are conducting a test, and it is run repeatedly, if one trial is noticably different from the rest, the data from that one is THROWN AWAY - and attributed to equipment or procedural error.

By its very nature scientist have to ignore God - if God is tinkering with the universe while you are trying to observe it, then you are lost - you cant conclude anything.

And religion is at the other extreem - the fail safe there is when you dont understand whats going on you have to accept it by faith.

I think we need something in between science and religon. How would pure science validate the existance of God? Give 100 mice cancer and pray to Allah to cure them. Then give 100 lab mice cancer and pray to Jesus to cure them.... and see which group of mice has the best survival rate?!

A humanity-wide attempt to get to the bottom of religion would be a whole new endevour - nothing like it has ever been done before - its certainly is not being done now.

And what is going on in this forum with the personal messages and private email nonsense?!

Jesus preached publically. He healed the sick publically. He rode into Jeruselum publically. He was executed publically. He didnt do His job in secret or behind closed doors - so why all of a sudden does everyone want to take a discussion of ideas and beliefs off line.

Thats what a forum is - a place to discuss ideas and thoughts and exchange information and tell other people what you think and feel PUBLICALLY!

Whats gotten into people on here?!

quote Originally posted by Ken Wittlief: ...Whats gotten into people on here?!...

They saw Cadaver excommunicate me, and are afraid it will happen to them.

If a Christian did to a Wiccan what he did to me, there would have REALLY been a war...

No ken, I get what your saying, I just know your wrong. If an experiment has gone awol, and data is a off from what it should be, they keep that, add it to the mean, and do more tests (Yes, my friends are all science majors). Science doesn't ignore god, it just has no proof. And if god himself can't proof his existence, thats pretty sad. Example, I once asked a Christian for proof of god, and his answer was "Look around! Thats all proof".. I don't think he knew what "proof" meant..?

I cant imagine what test or experiments any scientist would be running or conducting in which they might get unexpected results, and then would look at the 'erronious data' and conclude "this must be proof that God exists".

I think we must be thinking of different things. I am an engineer and took physics and chemistry in college. When you are doing a simple experiment, like dropping a steel ball 1 meter and measuring the time it takes to fall, you do it 10 or 20 times and measure average the results.

But since you are expecting the ball to fall at the same speed everytime, if one of your trials says the ball too 50% longer, or twice as long, then you DONT average that into your results, you assume somthing when wrong with that trial and you throw that piece of data away.

and you certainily dont say, I think God interefered with that one trial to prove His existance.

If that were the case then we have all the proof of God we need - Windows is a robust and foolproof operating system - so every time it crashes or locks up, thats not a SW bug, that is God interrupting what you are doing to get your attention :c)

Talk to your science friends and ask them about this specifically. One of the assumptions they make when coming up with theories and concepts is: they assume that things dont change - they assume the speed of light has always been the same - the laws of physics have always been the same - that things change gradually - and that nobody has been tinkering with the universe.

If you look from a scientific perspective there is a great deal of weight behind the idea of a global flood. Tropical fossels have been found in the artic areas. If the mountains were not present the amount of water that now covers 75% of the earth could easily have covered the rest of it. The bible speaks of a canopy of water being above the earth, in the upper atmosphere, it says it NEVER rained before the flood, that there was a high vapor content in the air, and it says that at the time of the flood the water that was trapped in the upper atmosphere was released and that springs of water in the ground were also opened up.

So look at the implications of all this. Before the flood people lived for 1000 years. Obviously dinosaurs lived sometime 'before' the flood.

If there was a canopy of water in the upper atmosphere then:

the entire earth could have a uniform temp from the equators to the poles - tropical plants in the artic.

the air pressure would be higher - scientist have concluded that dinosaurs needed a higher air pressure/oxygen content to exist

the amount of radiation reaching the surface from the sun would be a small fraction of what it is today - that could affect the life span of a human, and it would totally throw off the results you would get from carbon dating anything that was alive before the flood - carbon dating measures the amount of C12 a living organism was exposed to - and that can from solar radiation.

the flood would also account for the seperation of the continents - if the surface was fairly flat, and covered with water, and then the continents were pulled apart over a short period of time, the waters would receed into the oceans (where they are now) the plates would shift, mountain ranges would be created in a matter of weeks, and surface features like the grand canyon would be created in a month by the incredible amount of receeding water.

Will scientists consider any of this? No. Because it is accounted for in the bible, and therefor it would be tagged creation science (even though it has nothing to to with the creation, we are talking about the flood here).

So they ignore it, they wont even consider it.

One thing I found cool...
You can measure the erosion from a waterfall, say Niagra. See how far "upstream" the falls move every year, every 10 years, 100 years, so on...

Take that data and average it, measure how far the falls are form the cliffside now...you can tell how long the falls have been there, roughly.

Millions of years? Try under 10,000.

Our Wiccan Earth Science teacher told us that in college. She does not believe in God or Creation, but worships "Mother Earth" essentially, but this she could not explain.

I see Johnny's point. For instance, regarding the thought that the world was once flatter than now. Mountains have been dated to be older than the supposed time of the great flood. #1, funding for such a study would be extremely hard to find. Not many foundations would want to be the one known for proving the non-existance of a supreme being, nor would many individuals. Assuming of course that it turned out that way. #2 Scientists are still people, and many are both religious and scientists. Individuals might hesitate to be part or parcel to such research as they would be branded blasphemers (sp) by their friends. Deviations in experiments are usually not 100% accurate, hence the disclaimer of %error given with many of them. Look at all the tests/examinations done on the shroud of Turin. It's been carbon dated to be a fraud but there are still questions of the accuracy of the testing data. Interpretation of the data plas a large part, & still isn't an exact science. If God were to appear one day, & perform some spectacular thing, some would claim 'mass hallucination' or hysteria. For people who do believe, it's no big thing, but for those who don't, I always wonder what type of proof it would take. Honestly speaking, exactly what would constitute proof of God's existance to Johnny or RayB? Not looking for a flaming reply, just curious. Either of your reply's would be welcome.
Don

quote Originally posted by maryjane: I see Johnny's point. For instance, regarding the thought that the world was once flatter than now. Mountains have been dated to be older than the supposed time of the great flood. #1, funding for such a study would be extremely hard to find. Not many foundations would want to be the one known for proving the non-existance of a supreme being, nor would many individuals. Assuming of course that it turned out that way. #2 Scientists are still people, and many are both religious and scientists. Individuals might hesitate to be part or parcel to such research as they would be branded blasphemers (sp) by their friends. Deviations in experiments are usually not 100% accurate, hence the disclaimer of %error given with many of them. Look at all the tests/examinations done on the shroud of Turin. It's been carbon dated to be a fraud but there are still questions of the accuracy of the testing data. Interpretation of the data plas a large part, & still isn't an exact science. If God were to appear one day, & perform some spectacular thing, some would claim 'mass hallucination' or hysteria. For people who do believe, it's no big thing, but for those who don't, I always wonder what type of proof it would take. Honestly speaking, exactly what would constitute proof of God's existance to Johnny or RayB? Not looking for a flaming reply, just curious. Either of your reply's would be welcome. Don

Hey Don!
They have eyes, but cannot see...
They have ears, but cannot hear...
When the Jews were exiled from Egypt and were in the desert, God was with them day and night, as a pillar of smoke by day and a pillar of fire by night...
But when God and Moses went up the mountain, the Jews asked Aron to buid a golden calf...
How many Jews saw the miracles of Jesus first hand, yet still they questioned the "proof"...
And today with all the "wisdom" man has gathered, the question of life still eludes us...
crash...

Ken, you must not be a comedic fan of "WC Fields".

WC Fields, not only was a comedian, a drunkard, but he absolutely did not believe in religion because he had been put up for adoption and was adopted by an abusive family with an alcholic father. So he absolutely distaned the belief of a God. Had a little problem with his finances, so was a penny pincher trying to get around the government at all corners by turning their laws against them through financial loopholes...keep this in mind.

Any time God was mentioned he would get furious and argue that there is no God, yada, yada, yada.

However, on his death bed, a friend came into visit him and seen him for the first time, ever, in WC Fields life. reading the Bible.

When his friend asked him what he was doing, WC Fields replied, "Looking for loopholes".

Hence my comment. I just thought it was classic!
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I myself do not believe in God, let alone Satan. Therefore, to me there is no Heaven and there is no Hell. We just are. I go much deeper or farther then any Athiest out there to the point of absolute rejection and only look at the Bible as a mere collection of stories handed down from parent (or other) to child and just recorded over the centuries. I also view the Bible as a collection of authors, much like you would find a book from an author on being the perfect parent or how to manage your finances. In est, a guide to your own personal discovery.

I have my beliefs. You have yours. I respect people for their beliefs, as they are their beliefs.

By the way, there are so many religious philosophys out there from Amish (sp?) to ZEN (hopefully that covers from A-Z ), that we haven't heard their views.

Any Amish people here on the forum? Care to share your view on religion?

OH! Silly me! They believe in something entirely different and are still cast in the 17th century without TV, computers and other modern marvels. Is there view about God the correct one? How do you view or what comments might you have made at one time regarding their religious beliefs that would down play them.

We all believe in something. IMO, we are either all right or all wrong, in some incetecimal (sp?) way.

As far as my belief...maybe I'm right...maybe I'm wrong. Which none of us know for certain other then our "belief" system in what we are following and what we have been taught and each have come to believe in.

I don't force my views or belief structure on people. When they ask, I'll share. But once they start attacking my "personal" beliefs, its time to move on to another subject, because I don't attack people on their views as I respect them for their belief.

Anywhooo...sorry so long winded.
-----------------
Oh and Ken, the first part of this, before I went off on a tangent was to explain about the "loopholes" and the rest was just me sharing to the rest of the forum. Hopefully you understand my sense of sarcastic humor now.

quote Originally posted by TRiAD: One thing I found cool... You can measure the erosion from a waterfall, say Niagra. See how far "upstream" the falls move every year, every 10 years, 100 years, so on... Take that data and average it, measure how far the falls are form the cliffside now...you can tell how long the falls have been there, roughly. Millions of years? Try under 10,000. Our Wiccan Earth Science teacher told us that in college. She does not believe in God or Creation, but worships "Mother Earth" essentially, but this she could not explain.

Easy answer to that the last ice age was about 10,000 BP, ok more like 13,000 BP. The Laurentide ice sheet extended itself over all of canada and into central usa. The ice sheet and a variety of glacial fluvial processes resulting from it carved the landscape from northern CAN to the upper mid latitudes of the USA. Thus explaining the 10,000 yr or so age of ANY North American river north of the upper USA.

Triad: Oh man, your not one of those people who only think the earth is a few thousand years old, are you?

JSocha - I'm not trying to convert you or anything, but I do need to say something. Doesn't your life feel somewhat empty?

Whether God exists or not (I believe he does), would you not feel better knowing that there is a purpose to life, other than just to be born, live and die?

And what about hope. If you should ever happen to be in serious doo-da, or if your wife became violently ill, or if one of your kids was run over by a car and was clinging to life in the hospital, etc., etc. Whom do you turn to? Science? What if science isn't there to help you? Would you give up?

I think you see my point. I do think that many non-believers are very righteous people, but morals and commandments aside, faith equals hope.

Do I sound like a preacher yet? Well, I couldn't quote the Bible (even though I do know it somewhat, just not the paragraph and page numbers and so on) but I do believe life would be pretty empty if the only ones we could turn to were other people just like us.

Some people ask for proof that God exists. Anyone could argue that miracles (signs of God) do happen all the time. On the other hand, the non-believers could argue that it's nothing but a bunch of coindcidences (even though there are many happenings that science cannot explain). It all boils down to faith. Faith gives hope and hope gives a greater peace of mind.

Everything on earth is superficial and material. You can't take any of it with you when you die (not even your Fiero, although I'm thinking I'd want to be burried in mine ). In that case, what's the point of being here? Why would you want to be nice to other people? Does it really matter whether you are or not?

Just something to think about.

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quote Originally posted by JohnnyK: Triad: Oh man, your not one of those people who only think the earth is a few thousand years old, are you?

Most scientific theories are proven. To do this, you must provide a study, complete with a control.

When they began carbon dating, and figuring all these dates in the millions of years, where was theri control? Was there a million-year-old guy hanging around with a rock that he watched come from a volcano to tell them, "yes, THIS rock is 1M ys/old, THIS is your control"?
No, they used the fossil record. They used the layers of rock, and the fossils in them to determine age of certain rocks they were dating. The problem? Still no control. How to "date" the fossils? Carbon dating.

It's "circular reasoning" which is not sciantific in the slightest.

Im not trying to sound like a know it all, but I gotta speak up, this pertains exactly to my field of study.

Carbon dating, and dating of any radio active material is based on the half-life of the particular substance, which is a proven scientific fact. No I cant tell you something is 12,345 yr old, but I can tell you +/- a couple hundred years, and in geologic time that's like saying something happened 2 days ago, not 100% accurate but close enough that it doesn't matter.

Also dating based on sediment layers is a proven fact, sometimes less accurate than the method above but there are many ways of scientifically proving that different kinds of earth (dirt, rocks, etc) will erode at different rates. Accompany that with knowledge of sedimentation processes, such as a volcano eruption, it is not hard to determine ages of things.

Also relative age can be used, deeper into the sediment layer and it must be older, right? and the earth is constantly rebuilding itself at a somewhat constant rate, lava flows consume deep earth and redistributes new earth... But this in itself gives us scientific proof about age.

On a side note, I will never discount the validity of the bible, but I don't think there is any way to interpret it literally. Earth was made in seven days right? what if a day for god is 1 billion years for people...

[This message has been edited by Neal (edited 11-22-2001).]

quote Originally posted by Neal: On a side note, I will never discount the validity of the bible, but I don't think there is any way to interpret it literally. Earth was made in seven days right? what if a day for god is 1 billion years for people... [This message has been edited by Neal (edited 11-22-2001).]

Good point, Neal.

Even the Bible says a day to God is like 1000 years, and vice-versa...

But my point was, where is the CONTROL for your estimation of years? Where is the proven FACT that something is millions of years old? Who was there to tell us? How do you know the 1/2 life of something, if even science hasn't existed long enough to have been around that long. Even with 1/2 life theories, there is no control.
PORVE that it is that old...that's all.

PROOF OF GOD's BEING, UNDER YOUR CHRISTIAN RULES HE SENDS HOLY SPIRIT TO GUIDE CONVERTS ON TO THE RIGHTEOUS LIFE PATH.
SO WHY SO MANY DIFFERENT CULTS THAT WAR WITH EACH OTHER???AND NONE ON A TRUE PATH EVER???
WHY NOT ONE TRUE CHURCH GUIDED BY THE SPIRIT
IF THERE IS ONE AND TRUE RIGHTEOUS FOLLOWERS OF SAME KNOWN TO ALL????
WHERE IS GODS HAND IN HISTORY OF EVIL DONE BY AND IN THE NAME OF ALL CHURCHES.
IF GOD IS, WHY DOES HE HIDE FROM US, WHAT IS THE SURPREME RULER OF ALL AFRAIDE OF NOW, THAT PREVENTS HIM FROM LEADING HIS FLOCK NOW WITH A VISIBLE PRESENCE AS IT IS CLAIMED HE DID IN THE FAR PAST???
WHY ALL THE HATE, OF THE WORLD, BY CHRISTIANS WHO HOPE FOR A BETTER DEAL IN NEXT OR AFTER/LIFE INSTEAD OF INPROVEING LOT OF COMMON MAN IN THE HERE AND NOW.
WHY ALL THE STUPID RULES ABOUT SEX THAT SEEM COUNTERPRODUCTIVE IN A OVERCROWDED EARTH.
WHY ARE THERE SO MANY GODS WITH MANY DIFFERENT CULTS FOR EACH GOD ALL CLAIMING TO BE THE ONE TRUE GOD AND ONE TRUE WAY.

PART TWO
WHY SO MANY ERRORS OF FACT IN BIBLE LIKE DATES AND AGES OF HOW EARTH AND LIFE'S BEGINNING AND PLACE IN UNIVERCE???
FLOOD THAT NEVER COVERED EARTH,SUN MADE TO STAND STILL IN SKY ECT.???
WHY IS TRUE NAME OF CHRIST WRONG IN BIBLE NOT ONE NAMED JESUS HIS MOTHER MARY CALLED HIM YAH-SHO-WA MODERN NAME IS JOSHUA NOT JESUS WHY IS DEVINE BOOK WRONG ON MAJOR POINT LIKE IN NAME TO SAVED BY??????
IF GOD WANTS ME TO FOLLOW HIM WHY MUST I FOLLOW A MAN'S TEACHING, WHY CANNOT GOD SHOW HIMSELF AND LEAD THE TRUE WAY FOR ALL MEN.
IF AND WHEN I SEE GOD I WILL BELIVE IN HIM BUT IF I HEAR A MAN I WILL NOT FOLLOW WHAT A MAN SAID ABOUT GOD AS MAN LIES ABOUT GOD!!!

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Question wonder and be wierd

Triad, radioactive carbon dating is pretty exact. It is done by taking the KNOWN decay rate of a certain isotope and using that know for comparative study. All radiative material decays, all at different rates, but each is pretty much constant enough to be used as a benchmark. Don't get me wrong, I myself belief in the hearafter;in God. I'm just saying that this world is more than a couple thousand years old. I've seen too many things (good & bad) on this earth that defy scientific explanation not to beleive, plus, it just happens to be my choice. Besides, you are going about this all wrong. Ask someoone to prove God doesn't exist. They can't. I'll guarantee, within a few paragrphs they will turn it around, to be back at you to prove He does.
Fierowrecker, I understand the "they have eyes, but can't see..." The reason some people can't see Him, is because they've had no need to; yet.

maryjane: seatbelt laws.. ok, that's your choice. so I agree that it's not the best LAW.. good SUGGESTION, one that I always follow, but personal safety stuff shouldn't have to be forced upon you.

emissions laws.. that's a different story. I like clean air. smog makes me sick.. and all the people who don't care about the environment, and think it's cool to modify their car and have it spit tons of unburned hydrocarbons out into the atmosphere.... probably won't live long enough to see the damaging effects anyways. it's the same as big factories who only filter their smoke stacks during EPA inspections, or dump waste into rivers.

don't get me wrong, I love modding cars, and someday hope to have a built up 1934 buick sedan street rod, carbed V8, headers running straight to resonated tips, nothing modern at all. but I'd still tune it to be as efficient as possible, and it wouldn't be driven much anyway. I see cars driving along with liquid gas dripping out of the exhaust. (you could smell it when it stopped at a light) that's running way too rich. I'm not sure if it's intentional or just a poorly tuned car, either way, it's bad.

same with smoking.. I believe people can smoke if they want to... but not in public places. (bars excepted.. I never go to bars anyway...) I'm not saying I don't think you should smoke, just saying I agree with public smoking bans.

basically.. people can smoke as much as they want.. but not around me. and they'd better not even think of using taxpayers health care funds when they get lung cancer....... (major pet peeve of mine)

as for the IRS (Revenue Canada up here), it wouldn't be so bad if the governments didn't waste so d@mn much money. you think the taxes are bad there? we have over 50% taxation here, depending on which tax bracket you're in. but still, I think many things shouldn't be government funded.. and that would lower taxes. but.. I'm not an economics expert, there's probably reasons why it wouldn't work etc..

oh well.

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steve@fieroproject.com
http://www.fieroproject.com

[This message has been edited by DaRkLoRD (edited 11-22-2001).]

Ray - I know what your problem is. It took me some time to figure out what it is that makes talking to you so tiresome. You DON'T address other members' POINTS! You state a bunch of opinions. Once you get a reply, you go ahead and state some more opinions - please try addressing some specific points that people have raised and you just might get an answer to your 'wonderings'. Maybe you can try to dispute some points. If you have nothing to offer, then at least sit back and try to analize what others are saying. OK?

You mention all the bad things that happened in the world, some done by people who CLAIMED (let's make this distinction ONE MORE TIME - we've been through this a 100 times - try to absorb this one buddy) to be Christian. Then you wonder 'Where was God'? You see, the general belief is that, if there is God, there is also a devil. The BAD things that have happened can be attributed to the devil. The fact that the bad deeds have been OVERCOME, can be attributed to God.

Also, think about this. A lot of good has taken place throughout the centuries. Maybe there was a hand of God there somewhere? You seem to think that only bad sh_t happens and it's all because there is no God.

#1. MAN HAS FREE WILL.
#2. Ultimately GOOD (God) prevails. I mean, it HAS to - after all, you ARE here, aren't you? If good didn't prevail, Hitler would have exterminated anyone who didn't have blond hair and blue eyes. If good didn't prevail, there would have been a nuclear war between Soviet Union and the US a long time ago.

Are you absorbing this? Yeah, yeah, you can say 'all good and all bad is attributed to man'. This is where the word 'faith' comes in. For some reason, you have none. Fine. Does the name Thomas mean anything? Oh, I'm quoting fairy tails, am I? Let's assume for a moment that they are. Would it really be so bad to follow those fairy tails? I mean, they don't say ANYTHING that might harm humans.

You complain about sex. Well, the bible can't stop you from humpin' before you get married. Knock yourself out if you must. Can you say S T D?
Can you say H I V?

Yeah, I know. Someone will say 'be responsible', etc. There is no such thing as 100% certainty.

Let's suppose for a minute that EVERYONE only screwed the person they married. How would the deseases get around? There would be no danger that your spouse has anything because how would they get it? So now look at the bible again. Is the teaching in our BEST or in our WORST interest?

Don't dwell on this example. This is just an example of how the 'fairy tales' are actually in our best interest. I'm not a saint myself - everyone gets tempted .

You see, Ray, you talk primarily about Christians and how hateful and wrong they are. Look at yourself first. You preach 'live like there's no tomorrow'. Unfortunately, if we followed that, there really wouldn't be a tomorrow.

BTW, do you know how to turn off Caps Lock? I can show you if you like - it's really simple.

Voytek: 2 things. First of all, a few posts ago, you stated that you would like to believe that there is a point to this life, not just to be born and die, and that is what I've been trying to say. People hope and wish that there is a "god" just to make themselves feel comfortable. They don't want to be alone in the universe..

Second, please don't be rude to someone because they disagree with you..