quote Originally posted by maryjane: Sooo...guy/gals; who's the anti-Christ? (not sure to use a capital 'c' or not) Has he made his appearance yet?

I'm pretty much in agreement with Jack Van Impe on that. The only things I've disagreed with JVI are that he believes the Earth as we know it will go on forever (the Bible is pretty clear to me regarding it's "passing away"), and he thinks the Pope is a really great guy.

Almost forgot to answer the question. I think the AntiChrist is a mature adult, already in a position of power, probably in a Euro country, and will soon have all the answers for the world's biggest emergencies.

[This message has been edited by Cheever3000 (edited 12-05-2001).]

quote Originally posted by ray b: MJ DO YOU REALY THINK A FIGMENT OF JOHN OF PATMOS'S FEVER DREAM WILL END THE WORLD??? UNIVERCE TOO????? WELL IT IS ABOUT AS LIKELY AS THE SUN NOT RIZING AFTER AZTEK'S STOP CUTTING OUT HEARTS AS THEY THOUGHT GODS WANTED TO INSURE SUN RIZING. DON'T YOU THINK ENDING A WORLD FULL OF LIFE IS EVIL VERY WEIRD EVIL WORSE THAN TALIBAN EVIL AND THATS VERY VERY HARD TO DO!!!!

I think God will end the world, if we don't do it ourselves first. (even that will be in His plan.) Yes, this world is full of evil, always has been, always will be. But, when I post a question like that, it is mostly to learn from, get an idea what others think.(I already know what I believe) I've learned a lot here. For instance, I never dreamed that atheism is as widespread as it is. I never realized that there is such animosity between people who believe in God. I always thought everyone was like myself, believe and let believe, so to speak. If a person is a Muslim, Catholic, atheist, Hindu, that's fine with me. I'm really only concerned with what I believe. I asked about the anti-Christ because I don't know much about the subject, and thought it would be interesting to read. My sight has really gone downhill in the last few years, so I can't read much anymore, unless it is on the WWW and I enlarge the text a lot, then it takes forever, because it takes up so much space.
Hope it answered your question.

I think I can see Cliff's rooftop. Hope he doesn't mind me peeking in his window when this hits 15 stories.

HEY GUYS! Cliff's got his Christmas tree up. Sure is pretty! I think we need to send him some Fiero Ornaments!

[This message has been edited by JSocha (edited 12-06-2001).]

quote Originally posted by maryjane: Sooo...guy/gals; who's the anti-Christ? (not sure to use a capital 'c' or not) Has he made his appearance yet?

You guys know there's more than one, right?

Here we go...

1 John 2:18-27 and 4:2-3 (NIV)

2:18

Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrist's have come. This is how we know it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.
But you have an annointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth. I do not write to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it and because no lie comes from the truth. Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a man is the antichrist - he denies the Father and the Son. No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also.
See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you will also remain in the Son and in the Father. And this is what He promised us - even eternal life.
I am writing these things to you about those who are trying to lead you astray. As for you, the annointing you recieved from from Him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as His annointing teaches you about all things and as that annointing is real, not counterfeit - just as it has taught you, remain in Him.

4:2-3

Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone into the world. This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, but the spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.

2 John :7 (NIV)

Many decievers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deciever and the antichrist.

So, we see that:

*There are MANY "antichrist"s
*the decieving spirit of the "antichrist" was in the world even in John's time
*Anyone who denies Jesus is the Christ, or that He came in the flesh IS the "antichrist"
*Anyone who denies Christ also denies God, and they are the "antichrist"

Tough lessons, indeed.
I shall refrain from calling Ray the antichrist.

So, where's this "one antichrist" who is to "rise to power" before the second coming?!
It's a Catholic myth people...just like Purgatory. Neither are in the Bible. At least, not in the translations the Prodestant churches use.

I know who the antiChrist is - I have talked about it before but i will recap - mostly cause i like hearing myself talk!

I dont have Rev 13 in front of me right now, so Im not sure if this is the antiChrist or the Beast it refers to

but the part about summing the number of his name and it is 666 and that it is a mans number (or mans numbering system) and that it requires insite and understanding to figure it out - that always bugged me - like its a puzzel to be solved and I had an intuitve sense that there IS an answer.

and I figured out an answer that makes sense to me, and it fits in with the rest of the text about a one world government, and what would be construed to be a computer based cashless monentary system - no more cash - every thing is done by means of funds transfers - electonically - so if you are not part (if you do go along with the system) you have no way to buy or sell anythig and no way to work and be paid.

Computers store letters as numbers, using something called ASCII code. This is old stuff - it goes back to the days of WW2 teletype machines - each letter has a number assigned to it, unique for upper and lower case, and each other charater on a qwerty keyboard has a number too.

to make a long story short, the ASCII codes numbers for these letters add up to 666 in base 16 (hexidecimal) which is the numbering system that all digital computers throughout the world use

TheUnitedNations

note the correct upper and lower case must be used - and note the spaces are not used (they are implied by the capitol letters and the spaces between your name is not part of your name - in fact, the old testiment was originally written with NO spaces between the words)

to me this is a red flag that someday the UN will be the basis of the one world government, the AntiChrist may still be a individual who will head it - and it will be some act of the UN that eventually condemms Israel and turns against it militarily - bringing about the battle of armageddon.

BTW - dont think of the earth as being destroyed. When Adam fell, the earth fell with him, and all the rest of creation. The earth and nature and mankind is 'fallen'.

what will happen is that all of creation will be restored, or even made better than it was originally. So our physical bodies will be replaced with something better - something eternal, like Jesus received when he was resurrected (yes resurrection is different than revived).

Its as if the earth has been, or will be totalled, and instead of fixing it, it will be replaced with a new one.

Its something to look forward to, not something to be feared - which BTW always amuses me when I hear environmentalist saying we have to save the earth. If you think mankind has been hard on this planet, wait till you see what GOD is going to do to it!!!

quote Originally posted by TRiAD: So, where's this "one antichrist" who is to "rise to power" before the second coming?! It's a Catholic myth people...just like Purgatory. Neither are in the Bible. At least, not in the translations the Prodestant churches use.

not true. i'm protestant and we believe that. it's all in revelation.

I think you got the catholic myth part completely backwards. I talked to a man once who studied to be a priest, and ended up being something more like a decon (if thats the word they use)

and he said his understanding is that the whole book of revelation is more like a threat - Gods 'plan Z'

and that NONE of it will ever happen, because God will lead and guide us through the catholic church to make sure things never get so bad that He has to use plan Z on us.

Which is completely wrong. Revelation is absolutely necessary for Gods plan for use to be completed. Man fell in Genesis - the path for us to be restored to our original nature happed at the Cross - we were sealed with the promise that we will be redeemed at Penecost, and revelation is the conclusion, when we are finally and completely restored to the state that God originally intended for us.

Revalation is only scary if you are on the wrong side of the fence when it happens - up until that point we have an open door to repent and be spared from the terror of it. But just like God closed the door on Noahs Arc with His own hand, the door that is open before us right now will be closed when the things in revelation begin to happen. Then the only path for those who repent will be to go through the trial by fire -and they will have to suffer that wrath of the AntiChrist for refusing to worship him.

The 'one' antiChrist who 'rises to power' is described in great detail in the Bible. I don't know how you could miss it. Not just in Revelation but in Daniel as well. The others you mention are little antiChrists, not the big one. They are deceivers, seeking fame or fortune, but they're nothing like this guy will be. He will fool everybody.

The descriptions in Revelation aren't a "vision" given to John. Rather, he was taken through time to see the events as they actually happen. Definitely not an Ebenezer Scrooge dream kind of thing, or "here's what could happen" as in It's A Wonderful Life.

BTW, the Second Coming of Christ is a two-part deal. First He calls up His people and meets them in the air and takes them home, aka the 'rapture'. After this is when the antiChrist takes over. He will make a peace deal with Israel, then will break it in 3-1/2 years. Then after another 3-1/2 years (7 years total, aka the 'tribulation'), Christ will return for the Battle of Armageddon and start his 1,000 year reign. Then Heaven (more accurately, 'the heavens') and Earth are destroyed and a "New Jerusalem" will be the eternal home of the believers.

Okay, have I made enough people mad?

I think I'll take the stairs out of this building, I don't trust the elevators here.

I don't really have time to look all this up myself, but I am reading all this with a kind of amusement. Don't get me wrong, it is interesting, however everyone seems to have their own opinion or version of what's to come. This is definitely a good reason for people like me (who don't indulge in excessive details) to stick to the general principles, taught for centuries.

All of you, and particularly Ken, are putting forth ideas and interpretations in a manner that only says 'This is the right one - believe me, I am right'.

quote I talked to a man once who studied to be a priest

Ken, I don't mean to pick on you, but let's get this man here on the Forum and have him confirm to us what you are saying. Also, I don't mean to dispute his studies, I am simply using this as an example.

quote Which is completely wrong

.
How do you know that it's wrong? What makes YOU so sure on who's right and who's wrong? No offence, but there is more of you here claiming 'I've talked to this guy or that guy and he told me himself that....' etc, etc., or 'I was told this or that, so that guy is certainly wrong'. That's kinda like Ray saying he's seen (or read) about Christians committing all of the world's crimes. Proof?

Is this like supposed to make things more believable? I mean, come on. We're sitting on the forum, not even seeing each other's faces and in most cases, not even knowing each other's first names, and trying to convince each other that 'this is what's going to happen - I know this because I've interpreted it ALL by myself'.

You are discarding centuries worth of studies by scholars 100 times more intelligent than you (not saying that you're not intelligent) and claim that, in your short life, you've found the answers and 'have been born again' or 'found true Jesus' or whatever else.

Many thought that the world would end at the year 2000 and claimed that, if you read the bible correctly, that is what it will tell you. Um, let me feel myself... yup, still here. I'm being somewhat sarcastic here (in case you haven't noticed) but you get the idea.

AntiChrist could be anyone or anything. I see the media as being antiChrist. I see Rayb as being AntiChrist. Maybe Hitler was the guy. Sh*t, I think the guy next to my office is an antiChrist.

This is how cults and sects begin. This is how TV evangelists make their money.

No real point here, just an opinion.

[This message has been edited by Voytek (edited 12-06-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Voytek (edited 12-06-2001).]

Just an interesting note..
a good friend of mine is in the US Navy, and was assigned to the USS Hawkbill (SSN 666)

Onetime the sub hit some ice, and had to surface rapidly.. my friend said that they blew the balast tanks, and the sub rose to the surface.. Anyone watching the water at that time would have seen a huge black thing rise up out of the water, making a lot of noise, thrashing about, with a big 666 on the side.

and btw, if you're gonna be converting ASCII characters to numbers, WilliamHGates adds up too.. lots of web pages on that.
I bet you could make lots of stuff add up to an ascii value of 666...

though I do agree btw. as long as humanity is the way we are now, a one world government would be bad news. With everyone using e-cash, it would be easy to track everything that people do. We'd have no privacy, and it could be a totalitarian state... relating back to the Mason references, the US $1 bills have on them the text "Novus Ordo Seclorum" (sp?) which translates roughly to "new secular order"... coincidentally, this is right under the "pyramid eye". go ahead, check your money. it's not just there for decoration people. also, Bush specificaly used the words "New World Order" during the gulf war..
Oh, another thing... there's been some talk about implanted biochips for ID purposes.. sounds cool, right? the phrase "mark of the beast" comes to mind... (implant scars)

p.s. I do understand where Ray is coming from.. I know many people who claim to be christians, but are VERY anti-christian in their actions... It's sad that all christians are lumped together with these bad ones, but it's the same idea as people who consider all muslims to be terrosists. If that's all you ever hear about a certain grup, all you ever experience, then you start to assume they're all like that. For most of my youth, I only ever encountered really evangelical christians who would put others down, tell others (esp. ME) that they're not as good as they were because of religious differences, etc... I got sick of it.

I've read a lot of the bible.. I've read other documents relating to the same period in history.. I've studied other religions and beliefs, and I have formed my own unique belief system, that doesn't fit into any other religion.

Like I said, just looking for a middle ground.

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steve@fieroproject.com
http://www.fieroproject.com

[This message has been edited by DaRkLoRD (edited 12-06-2001).]

Im not going to bother to run the ascii check on bill gates, not because I dont believe you, but because you miss the point.

If the fbi is looking for someone named bill smith, then every bill smith in the world is not rounded up and arrested.

there are many aspects of the beast and the antiChrist detailed in Rev 13 and other places - the beast will have to fullfill all of them - not only the 666 name thing.

The United Nations IS in a position to potentially become a one world government, esp after the rapture when all the Christains have been taken out of the way, and there is nobody left to object based on christian values and beliefs.

bill gates and Ronald regan and www are not in the postion to become a world governemnt or leader of one.

The penalty for accepting the mark of the beast is eternal damnation - so God has forwarned and given many ways to identify the Beast when he comes. 666 is only one of the many.

So if you see someone whos license plate number is 666 please do not drive a wooden stake through their heart.

But if at some time soon, the governements of the world choose to surrender their soverenty in whole or in part to the UN, and a global cashless monetary system is created (maybe as a way to stop the funding of terrorism and crime?!) and you see an attempt to combine the religions of the world into one, or you see a person associated with the UN who claims to somehow fullfill the expectations of all religions...

AND btw when you sum the letters of his name (its name) and they add up to 666 (in a manner that is relavent to the world that exists at the time)

then you need to decide if you are better off going along with this new system, or rejecting it, even if it means loosing your own life.

Thats what the propheices in the Bible are all about. In Jesus own words "Dont be fooled by these people - dont follow them - dont go along with it - because I have told you/ warned you, AHEAD of time"

in this case, 2000 years ahead of time.

quote Originally posted by Ken Wittlief: The United Nations IS in a position to potentially become a one world government, esp after the rapture when all the Christains have been taken out of the way, and there is nobody left to object based on christian values and beliefs. But if at some time soon, the governements of the world choose to surrender their soverenty in whole or in part to the UN, and a global cashless monetary system is created (maybe as a way to stop the funding of terrorism and crime?!) and you see an attempt to combine the religions of the world into one, or you see a person associated with the UN who claims to somehow fullfill the expectations of all religions... then you need to decide if you are better off going along with this new system, or rejecting it, even if it means loosing your own life.

Agreed fully.

666 is the amount of gold paid in tax to Solomon.
bible loves number games 3 7 12 are magic and good numbers,under their system.

terminal thinking is very dangerous,and evil,
for a superpower with H-bombs that can end our world, with a button push.
Also BS CRRAPPP !!!!!!!
AND ALL WHO WORK TO BRING ABOUT THE END TIME are EVIL NASTY FOOLS AND VERY DANGEROUS TO ALL LIFE ON THIS PLANET.
much better if your crazy belife dies then our planet!!!!!!
but as there is no god NO FEAR !!!!!
BECAUSE IT IS ALL A VERY BAD FAIRY TALE
sad realy that people kill others over this!!
please SOMEONE INVENT A NEW FABLE WITH RESPECT FOR ALL AND END THIS MADNESS NOW.
IF YOU FOLLOW ANY FAKE GOD AND ALL ARE FAKE
YOU ARE PART OF THE WORLD WIDE TERROR SAME AS BEN LADEN. MAYBE SMALLER PART BUT A PART!!
LIVE FOR TODAY, LAFF AT FOOLS, END ALL FAIRY TALES, SO FOOLS WILL NOT USE THEM TO KILL.

AND QUIT CALLING ME THE ANTI-CHRIST
I AN ANTI ALL FAIRY TALES NOT JUST YOURS
ANTI GOD,GODDESS,DEMI-GOD ALL AND EVERY GOD
ALLAH TO ZORE AND ALL THE NAMES INBETWEEN.
BELIVE IN YOUR FELLOW MEN AND HELP THEM
AND NO GOD BS HELPS ANYONE, EVER!!!!!!!

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Question wonder and be wierd

ok ray, so according to your philosophy anyone who is not you is evil. am i getting this right?

i've never, in my entire life, encountered someone so narrow-minded as you.

Ok, I did some checking and it was "BILL GATES III".. anyway, my point was lots of people figure out names that add up to "666" in ascii value, and some are pretty funny

In terms of the antichrist, etc.. it's one of those "I'll believe it when I see it", but I do believe it's possible, and I'll definitely start to get worried when I see it coming true..

Another thought occurred to me, the "mark of the beast" could be a reference to a barcode ID.....

here's a website I found in a really quick search, it basically outlines the "mark of the beast" in relation to some sort of ID device.http://www.countdown.org/armageddon/mark_of_beast.htm

after a bit more reading, it sounds like this idea is fairly common.
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steve@fieroproject.com
http://www.fieroproject.com

[This message has been edited by DaRkLoRD (edited 12-06-2001).]

In the 80s some people were saying it was Ronald Wilson Reagan (6 letters in each name). There's also something in the bible about the beast or antichrist recovering from a seemingly mortal wound. I guess Ronnie did get better pretty quick after that assasination attempt...

quote Originally posted by Jaygee79: ok ray, so according to your philosophy anyone who is not you is evil. am i getting this right? i've never, in my entire life, encountered someone so narrow-minded as you.

if and only if your belife suports killing for god, and has a record of dead bodys in it history like bible does and most other religions do yes you are helping spread the evil.
STONE THEM ALL only the one without blood on their hands are not guilty, as are all who suport ben lauden with cash or prase or in any other way.

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Question wonder and be wierd

quote Originally posted by ray b: if and only if your belife suports killing for god, and has a record of dead bodys in it history like bible does and most other religions do yes you are helping spread the evil. STONE THEM ALL only the one without blood on their hands are not guilty, as are all who suport ben lauden with cash or prase or in any other way.

ray,
I think you need to narrow it down a bit. You're saying you would kill anybody who follows any religion that has ever had someone kill another in the name of that religion. You're talking about the vast majority of people on earth.

Won't you get lonely???

As for God destroying the world, didn't he make a covenant with us after the flood and said he would never destroy the world again? Or did he mean by not using a flood? He even gave us the rainbow to remind us of this. If the world is destroyed again it will be by man's own hand. Anyone who is against God is an antichrist.

quote Originally posted by DRH: Here's a challenge for everyone... Try to find a topic that ray b can't turn into a rant against Christians!!!

Rustang's: POS or F'ed up crap?

quote Originally posted by avengador1: As for God destroying the world, didn't he make a covenant with us after the flood and said he would never destroy the world again? Or did he mean by not using a flood? He even gave us the rainbow to remind us of this. If the world is destroyed again it will be by man's own hand. Anyone who is against God is an antichrist.

he said he would never again destroy the Earth by flood.

I have a story that I had not really thought about for quite a while. Gives some cause to think:

This is a TRUE story, told to me by the guy it happened to. My boss, at Taco Time (go ahead, LAUGH )was this person.
At one point we (the other employees) were talking about religion during a break. He comes in and tells us about how he was a devout baptist for most of his life, but that he was convinced that it was a steaming pile of
So I asked him what had happened? He pulls open his shirt and shows us the huge scar on his chest. Got it from a serious heart-attack, needed some heap-big angioplasty, (which didn't work) followd by a bypass. I asked him what it had to do with anything?
"Nothing," he said, "only the fact that on the ride to the hospital after my collapse, I flat-lined. I was clinically dead for 4 minutes. Got some brain-damage out of the deal, too. Still got numb parts on my face and left side." Again, I had asked as to how that affected his faith. "I was dead, and all I can say is that there is NOTHING. You grey out, everything goes black, and then it's EMPTY. That's why I am so happy to be alive. I've seen the other side, and it's empty. Don't live your life worrying. Live well, be nice to others, because it's the only shot you'll get, and there's no reason to ruin it for anyone else, either."

That's my little story...

Whatdya think?

OK, the "Beast" in Revelation is NEVER called the "antichrist" in the Bible.

Why is it I'm the only one posting Biblical references to back up my posts? What, you can say "Oh, he's in Revelations (BTW, there's no "s" on the end) how could you miss it?" Uh, go READ it again! It NEVER calls the Beast the antichrist. This correlation is one of MAN and is not supported in the Bible.

Jaygee...what denomination are you? There are VERY few (if any) prodestant denominations that believe in Purgatory. maybe Episcopals and Lutherans, but I'm not even sure about them. They are the ones that carried most of the Catholic beliefs with them when they severed.

At any rate, forget what you think you believe...show me purgatory in the Bible!

Ray...

quote Originally posted by ray b: ...YOU ARE PART OF THE WORLD WIDE TERROR SAME AS BEN LADEN. MAYBE SMALLER PART BUT A PART!!...

You are the second and LAST person who will EVER call me Osama bin Laden, one of his followers, or a member of his cause.

This is THE single most OFFENSIVE thing you could EVER say to ANYONE!!!!!

I don't think calling people militant murdering followers of THE terrorist falls into Cliff's "no flame" policy. I hope he removes you.

[This message has been edited by TRiAD (edited 12-06-2001).]

quote Originally posted by Jaygee79: he said he would never again destroy the Earth by flood.

NO HE DID NOT
"8-21GEN."I will not again curse the ground anymore for man's sake; for imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every living thing"

YOU DO KNOW THIS IS A FABLE STORY nobody wrote dowh gods words as he spoke them or with out a fact to come near a world wide flood ever,over mt tops ever, in 40 days of rain?? ever. were is the water now??????
local floods sure even very big ones like black sea basen flood at about 10K years ago
100s of miles of very slow flood in that one but no 40 day wwf DID NOT HAPPEN NO WAY NO HOW!!!!!!!!

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Question wonder and be wierd

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Jaygee79:
he said he would never again destroy the Earth by flood.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

NO HE DID NOT
"8-21GEN."I will not again curse the ground anymore for man's sake; for imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every living thing"

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Hey Ray, ever hear of Genesis 9:11?!
""I establish My convenant with you: Never again will all life be cut off by the waters of a flood; never again will there be a flood to destroy the earth."

quote Originally posted by ray b: NO HE DID NOT "8-21GEN."I will not again curse the ground anymore for man's sake; for imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every living thing" YOU DO KNOW THIS IS A FABLE STORY nobody wrote dowh gods words as he spoke them or with out a fact to come near a world wide flood ever,over mt tops ever, in 40 days of rain?? ever. were is the water now?????? local floods sure even very big ones like black sea basen flood at about 10K years ago 100s of miles of very slow flood in that one but no 40 day wwf DID NOT HAPPEN NO WAY NO HOW!!!!!!!!

Well, we COULD get glaciers that are over 35km high... But even with ALL of the water condensed and precipitated, you wouldn't get much more than a few hundred hike in sea-level...

Course, that would SERIOUSLY drown a lot of area. Think of the tides exposing and hiding hundreds of meters of meters of beach... That represents only a few meters of ocean...

'Course, the other option is divine intervention. Considering that God could create the very earth, I don't think that a few million billion gallons of simple H20 would be much of a challenge

Mach10 everyone knows if your heart stops beating you are not declared dead, he was only unconscience.

I loose conscienceness every night and dont have a continuous sense of awareness from bedtime to sunrise.

Besides, if he is convinced there is no heaven or hell, then arent you free to do whatever you darn well please, with no fear of ultimate accountability?!

quote Originally posted by TRiAD: Ray... You are the second and LAST person who will EVER call me Osama bin Laden, one of his followers, or a member of his cause. This is THE single most OFFENSIVE thing you could EVER say to ANYONE!!!!! I don't think calling people militant murdering followers of THE terrorist falls into Cliff's "no flame" policy. I hope he removes you. [This message has been edited by TRiAD (edited 12-06-2001).][/B]

where does it say a name the word "YOU" is a broard brush to mean all, not anyone individual poster. do you feel any guilt for the real crimes done in the name of your god's other cults ?????
maybe thats why you cry so much??????
you do know that abrahams GOD is the god ALLAH TOOOOO same as JC claims to be part of same god as mohammed was a profit of.
many many cults of same god all have a spin on ideas but down when it counts all look the same too me.
BUT I ATTACK ONLY BELIFE NOT PEOPLE
and again you attack me not my ideas!
and try to cencer what you can't debate
the record is clear look at it !!!!!!!

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Question wonder and be wierd

[This message has been edited by ray b (edited 12-06-2001).]

Ray, never speak directly to me again. I'll do the same.

quote Originally posted by Ken Wittlief: Mach10 everyone knows if your heart stops beating you are not declared dead, he was only unconscience. I loose conscienceness every night and dont have a continuous sense of awareness from bedtime to sunrise. Besides, if he is convinced there is no heaven or hell, then arent you free to do whatever you darn well please, with no fear of ultimate accountability?!

Don't know about that. I would consider someone with 0 BP as "dead."
The fact that he was suffering from necrosis of various tissues would constitute as "dead."

How does the bible define life or death? I'm curious, as I don't remember any reference...

But, about accountability: So, if you have no preconceptions or beliefs about an/the afterlife, then you are automatically an nihilistic sum'***** ? There's always personal accountability: I.E., I'll feel bad for you if I kick you in the nuts and steal your car

no i simply dont see his connection from his near death/ post death experience to the conclusion to be nice to people...

maybe make the most of your life, cause this is all there is, there is a logic to that.

but given 'there is no afterlife'

I dont see the connection to 'therefor be good, be nice...'

quote Originally posted by Ken Wittlief: no i simply dont see his connection from his near death/ post death experience to the conclusion to be nice to people... maybe make the most of your life, cause this is all there is, there is a logic to that. but given 'there is no afterlife' I dont see the connection to 'therefor be good, be nice...'

Oooohh.... I get it... No, that wasn't my point. I was unclear, but I'm basically asking how you you can justify your faith to such a person? He's a good guy, was great to his employees, and had a couple of really cool kids. All outside appearances marked him as a decent guy, for what that's worth. He just had an experience that was profound enough to completely destroy some 45 years of religious experience.

My point is that if there isn't an afterlife/god etc., then true, there's no reason to be nice to people... But then, there's no reason to be a sandy little butt-hole either. Also toss in the fact that if you cross the wrong person, he/she will come after you with a really big stick.

Ken & Mach10 have almost brought us back to the evolution topic. If we're just animals, then why bother with morality?

quote Originally posted by Cheever3000: Ken & Mach10 have almost brought us back to the evolution topic. If we're just animals, then why bother with morality?

Why not?

evolution does have its own set of morals

its called 'acting like animals'

:c)

quote Originally posted by ray b: where does it say a name the word "YOU" is a broard brush to mean all, not anyone individual poster. do you feel any guilt for the real crimes done in the name of your god's other cults ????? BUT I ATTACK ONLY BELIFE NOT PEOPLE and again you attack me not my ideas! and try to cencer what you can't debate the record is clear look at it !!!!!!!

Since you used the word 'all', I assume you are talking to all believers. Therein lies the problem, that you can't see. When you attack a person's religious belief, you are, in fact attacking that person. Religious beliefs are often so profoundly felt, that there is no separating them from the person-they actually make the person.
You ask us to check the record, that it is clear. Our record is clear to us also. You challenge by asking "You were there? You saw all this?" (or something to that effect) I could ask you the same thing. All ancient history is open to interpretation, and speculation. You can't have it both ways, Ray. If written word is a fact for you, it must be taken as such for others also. History has been re-written many times and will be again, many times. In answer to asking about feeling guilt-Not A Bit.
You've stated in the past that you fear religious people because of the past. I fear nothing--on this Earth. Not disease, not atheists, not war or famine. Not even thermo-nuclear war. I Know who I am, what I am. I am a hypocrite sometimes, I curse, I have killed several times. I sin daily. BUT, I believe in God & believe I am forgiven these mortal sins. Man might kill me, might slander me, but I will live on, in a better place. And, I don't recall seeing anyone call you the anti-Christ. You may have weird philosophical beliefs, but I won't give you that much credit.

quote Originally posted by Mach10: [QUOTE]Originally posted by Cheever3000: [b]Ken & Mach10 have almost brought us back to the evolution topic. If we're just animals, then why bother with morality?

Why not?

[/B][/QUOTE]
many greek schools of thought like stoic or socratic or spartian are based on right and wrong independent of GODS will or retribution
romans were very bigg on morals and virtues for men under their immoral gods rule.
our criminal justice system [when not corrupted] trys to be moral with out waiting for gods judgement.
fairy tales and justice do not go together very well at all.
thats why laws againts mans nature are wrong sex and sexcrimes are a good example.
rape is a crime allways, but sex for cash is not ever a crime. unless you belife is to be in the way of rights of people to do what they want with their own bodys!!!
laws that limit hurt are right.
but laws that limit rights are wrong.
even if the right is to hurt yourself, but yourself only, not others!!!!
most are very afraid of real freedom, but as tom jefferson said "IF YOU LIMIT ANYMANS FREEDON YOU LIMIT MINE".

MJ ck out post at 1:31 this pm for anti-c attack,only wish I had the power but no such luck.

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Question wonder and be wierd

[This message has been edited by ray b (edited 12-06-2001).]

quote Originally posted by Mach10: [QUOTE]Originally posted by Cheever3000: [b]Ken & Mach10 have almost brought us back to the evolution topic. If we're just animals, then why bother with morality?

Why not?

[/B][/QUOTE]
I ask a related question in another thread. Never got much of an answer. If you accept the evolution theory or not, where did man get his sense of morality? Did man just one day decide we would not behave as animals? In other words, when & why did man cast off the law of the jungle,(survival of the fittest) and become compassionate? Animals do not really respect other animal's property, mates, food source, or territory. It happened long before the laws that RayB mentioned. Mankind had already acquired a sense of law from somewhere. I prefer to believe we get our morality and most of our laws from religion, our sense of right and wrong.