Believe what you want to. & I never said they didn't own any crude pipelines. I said they mostly dealt in Nat Gas, Electricity, & steel. I didn't say it, but the fact is, they simply don't have(had) the clout to influence major producers. I don't have to do a web search to know how gasoline is wholesaled, retailed, transported, or downstreamed. Aren't you the guy that tried to tell us that all the nuclear weapons are stockpiled in Terminal, Texas? Now THAT'S a fairy tale. Sky fallin yet? You are probably still believing Clinton didn't have sexual relations with "That Woman". Way past my bedtime. goodnight Ray.

[This message has been edited by maryjane (edited 12-12-2001).]

I'll admit, I haven't been followed this story, but problems with Enron is nothing.

On the news last night I caught something about a cell phone company in California got 4 billion in help from the government or something to setup phone licenses in the LA area, within a year the company went belly up, and now the government wants to buy those much needed licenses for 6 billion.

$240,000,000 although means a lot to me and you is really only chump change when you look at this fiasco.

It's a shame really and I see your point rayb. Big energy companies and government influence only benefits them and doesn't help the rest of us.

[This message has been edited by Tigger (edited 12-12-2001).]

I think Larry Flynt is behind it and Enron was tampering with the p0rn pipeline futures

quote Originally posted by maryjane: Believe what you want to. & I never said they didn't own any crude pipelines. I said they mostly dealt in Nat Gas, Electricity, & steel. I didn't say it, but the fact is, they simply don't have(had) the clout to influence major producers. I don't have to do a web search to know how gasoline is wholesaled, retailed, transported, or downstreamed. Aren't you the guy that tried to tell us that all the nuclear weapons are stockpiled in Terminal, Texas? Now THAT'S a fairy tale. Sky fallin yet? You are probably still believing Clinton didn't have sexual relations with "That Woman". Way past my bedtime. goodnight Ray. [This message has been edited by maryjane (edited 12-12-2001).]

BUT only because of republican idiots did his BJ cost us tax $$$ when the CHRISTIANS IN the house went NUTS and tryed to impose their stupid MORALS on him. as they love to do to OTHERS but lets not talk about BUSH who is realy a thief with billions in taxes rebated to people who donot need the $$$$$ but nothing for the layedoff WORKERS NOW who do.
WAS HIS claim to be a COMPASIONATE conseratve a big LIE just to get elected with the HELP of cheats and FIXES but thats OK as he is on GODS side.

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Question wonder and be wierd

How can you tell when Bill Clinton is lying?

His lips move.

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Greg, aka Boomer
Red 85 GT

quote Originally posted by ray b: BUT only because of republican idiots did his BJ cost us tax $$$ when the CHRISTIANS IN the house went NUTS and tryed to impose their stupid MORALS on him. as they love to do to OTHERS but lets not talk about BUSH who is realy a thief with billions in taxes rebated to people who donot need the $$$$$ but nothing for the layedoff WORKERS NOW who do. WAS HIS claim to be a COMPASIONATE conseratve a big LIE just to get elected with the HELP of cheats and FIXES but thats OK as he is on GODS side.

Shut up Ray. Why do you deserve to pay less in taxes and therefore less for services you use then someone making more? As a matter of fact upper income people use little or no Govt services in thier personal life. Its communist attitudes like that that irritate me. Its like this, I own a home and pay taxes. I have no kids. I pay more in taxes then people with kids. Who is using the services my taxes pay for more? Me or the person with 5 kids? So why do I pay more???
You are a socialist in my opnion.

And don't forget - immoral, anti-Christian and Freemason socialist.

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quote Originally posted by Voytek: And don't forget - immoral, anti-Christian and Freemason socialist.

DOES NOT YOUR OWN BIBLE CALL bearing false witness a sin.
my morals are good just not based on fairy tales but real TRUTH.
DAD was a mason I never was.and have no plans to join them.
and long term work for goverments showed me that socialisum will not work I WANT LESS BUT FAIR goverment with out RELIGIOINS CONTROL OF LAWS AND RULES.
1 out of 4 is correct you fail the grade with a 25% =F

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Question wonder and be wierd

quote Originally posted by ray b: I WANT LESS BUT FAIR goverment

So what is fair about taking from the wealthy (high taxes) and redistributing it to the poor (welfare, long term unemployment benefits, social medicine, etc.)? You sound like a hypocrite to me.

quote Originally posted by BN Boomer: So what is fair about taking from the wealthy (high taxes) and redistributing it to the poor (welfare, long term unemployment benefits, social medicine, etc.)? You sound like a hypocrite to me.

INcome TAx was passed as a tax on the richest of the rich
NEVER WAS TO BE A WORKERS TAX like it is now
when the SS tax and co parts of that are added to income tax even a worker pays 15% in ss and about 10% income tax or 25% of his gross income befor local taxes. rich pay 20% on capital gains and it is now going down now under BUSH.
39% is top rate but only after loop holes and deducks and only 14% higher than workers rates and only on earned income not long term profets.
OUR GOVERMENT PAYS WAY MORE TOO COrp. LIKE ENRON in corprate wellfare than to poor NOW.
ck the # as to who got what from Bush and his gang of theives NOW
I guess a BJ is a bigger crime to some then to steal millions of our tax $$$$.
BS REPUBLICAN BS

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Question wonder and be wierd

Why don't you try answering the question next time? Why should I have to pay a higher percentage of my income in taxes simply because I am more succesful? Where is the fairness in that?

And Social Security is just another burden yoked upon us by do-gooders like you who want to take money from the successful and redistribute it to the less fortunate. I'd rather manage my own retirement, thank you very much. If someone doesn't want to eat Alpo when they get older, then they should plan and live their lives accordingly. Fortunately, I don't have to participate in Social Security but do have to pay into Railroad Retirement.

quote Originally posted by ray b: INcome TAx was passed as a tax on the richest of the rich NEVER WAS TO BE A WORKERS TAX like it is now

Ahem... let me be the first to wave your flag

That line of thinking is why we don't just have a welfare program, its generations of income redistribution from productive, job creating people to those that choose not to work. It's funny how you cater to those that refuse to work instead of those that create jobs for many people.

And president Clinton's BJ scandal is totally in character for his supporters. Sure he's not the first president to ever finagle some stupid intern during his term. He was just arrogant enough to not only get caught, but brazenly declare that only intercourse defines a marital indescretion and a BJ is ok. Not to mention all the lying that preceded the "admission". Ray you should be really proud to vote Democrat and support Bill Clinton and his legacy as a fine example for American children.

quote Originally posted by BN Boomer: Why don't you try answering the question next time? Why should I have to pay a higher percentage of my income in taxes simply because I am more succesful? Where is the fairness in that? And Social Security is just another burden yoked upon us by do-gooders like you who want to take money from the successful and redistribute it to the less fortunate. I'd rather manage my own retirement, thank you very much. If someone doesn't want to eat Alpo when they get older, then they should plan and live their lives accordingly. Fortunately, I don't have to participate in Social Security but do have to pay into Railroad Retirement.

WISH I COULD UNDERSTAND how a RR worker thinks they pay a HIGH rate of TAX and how TAX CUT FOR RICH affect you?
I pay about 25% my rich buddy did pay 39% on income BUT ONLY 20% capital gain and lower next year.
BUT he deserves that because a grampop he never did meet was a good scammer and briber.
so when he sells the stock he was given he shouid pay less tax then I DO for working .
AND YOUY THINK THATS FAIR AND HE NEEDS A BIGGER BREAK so lets lower the allready lower capital gains rates more THATS WHAT BUSH DID.

WAKE UP RICH DO NOT PAY TAX THEY DODGE DEFURE OR DEDUCT taxes in ways you can't even dream of.

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Question wonder and be wierd

quote Originally posted by ray b: WISH I COULD UNDERSTAND how a RR worker thinks they pay a HIGH rate of TAX and how TAX CUT FOR RICH affect you? I pay about 25% my rich buddy did pay 39% on income BUT ONLY 20% capital gain and lower next year. BUT he deserves that because a grampop he never did meet was a good scammer and briber. so when he sells the stock he was given he shouid pay less tax then I DO for working . AND YOUY THINK THATS FAIR AND HE NEEDS A BIGGER BREAK so lets lower the allready lower capital gains rates more THATS WHAT BUSH DID. WAKE UP RICH DO NOT PAY TAX THEY DODGE DEFURE OR DEDUCT taxes in ways you can't even dream of.

Get your nose out of the poor man's pocket and look around at the Big Picture. The rich guy uses money to invest. Those investments fund corporations. Corporations hire people. <--That was your clue. The RR worker gets his $600 tax rebate (or fill-in-the-blank tax cut of your choice) and invests in nothing.

Sure they get an unfair reward. It's due to the unfair risks that are taken! I'm not saying there aren't abuses but this is a result of tax and investment incentives provided by the gov't with the intention of influencing the private sector in some way, usually to help out "less than fortunate" folks with jobs or worse, handouts.

Ray do you have a 401k or other tax-deferred retirement account? Are you a homeowner that files long form and deducts interest payments? Do you own shares of stock or mutuals? Do you own any corporate bonds? If so you are a member of the group you readily accuse of theft and deception. If not, please say "Thank You" as you pass by every employed person who's wallet you are emptying after you retire.

Ray you dont seem to understand. Not all the rich are crooks. Thats bull you have to believe so that you can act the way you do. There are some hard working people out there that deserve to be succesful. Envy allows us to condem them for it. I like to think that the harder you work the better the rewards. By your democrat thinking its the oppisite. Capitalist = hardwork = rewards. Communist = hard work = same lifestyle as lazy slobs. I am not rich. I am considered middle class. But I pay more then my fair share in taxes. For serveices I dont use. I just dont understand people that want to see the succesful fail. it gives you some perverse sense of pleasure. If you suck the whole world should suck. And the successful should fall all the harder becasue they dared to climb a little highe for thier dream. You are an American by birth not idealology. Your view of corporate America is the same as the Arabic view of civilian America. You see that they have so much more then us. They see we have so much more then them. They want to bring us down hard. Is that what you want also?
BTW I know this is rambling........

quote Originally posted by thomas_l: Get your nose out of the poor man's pocket and look around at the Big Picture. The rich guy uses money to invest. Those investments fund corporations. [b]Corporations hire people. <--That was your clue. The RR worker gets his $600 tax rebate (or fill-in-the-blank tax cut of your choice) and invests in nothing. Sure they get an unfair reward. It's due to the unfair risks that are taken! I'm not saying there aren't abuses but this is a result of tax and investment incentives provided by the gov't with the intention of influencing the private sector in some way, usually to help out "less than fortunate" folks with jobs or worse, handouts. Ray do you have a 401k or other tax-deferred retirement account? Are you a homeowner that files long form and deducts interest payments? Do you own shares of stock or mutuals? Do you own any corporate bonds? If so you are a member of the group you readily accuse of theft and deception. If not, please say "Thank You" as you pass by every employed person who's wallet you are emptying after you retire.[/B]

HOW MANY CO. invest in american JOBS NOW????
most seem to be exporting them to other countrys for cheap labor.
see any made in USA stickers on shoes [like nike or rebock].ADDS are all they make in USA.
we invented TV's are there any made in USA now??? NO, vcrs NO, DVDs no.my new computer monitor a philips magnavox was made in CHINA
I looked for a made in USA UNIT but no luck
as all are from far east countrys now.
SO how do tax credits help us get more jobs HERE AND NOW???????
I have owned a trailer, all my boats and houses free and clear with out any loans ever. so do not get the tax breaks that support the banks and S&L's HIGH RATEs.

I invest in GINNYMAY's and CD's some and mostly in collectables and art.
I have owned and run two small biz's myself and worked in big biz tooo.
BUT FAIL TO UNDERSTAND why rich should pay a rate less than I do in total tax.
thanks to a state goverment pension plan i could retire now but will not yet.

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Question wonder and be wierd

quote Originally posted by ray b: SO how do tax credits help us get more jobs HERE AND NOW???????

OK - I'm not rich but my fed tax donation could support a small family pretty well for a year. Here's my own example:

I get a couple thousand knocked off my tax bill from mortgage interest and other itemized deductions. Conversely on 9/18 the day after the markets re-opened I bought Delta Airlines stock (OK its not UAL or AMR but I live in THE Delta hub city and fly Delta 90% of the time). A month later I bought a new Chevy pickup.

The tax discount made more of my own hard earned cash available to invest the money elsewhere. I personally benefit because DAL has gone up $10/share since then and I have a shiny new truck. The risk is that DAL could go bankrupt and I could lose my own job and have to sell the truck at a loss. I took some risk and gained some reward. My DAL share purchase with 1000's of others increased the capitalization of DAL and meant fewer people layed off as they recover from 9/11. I and a few thousand folks got new trucks and some guys at the GM plant got to build more units instead of shutting the plant down for a week or two. A few administrative folks at GMAC also get to be employed as they service a few 1000 new loans. My contribution is chump change. Me and everyone else make a difference.

I can't say much about consumer electronics and shoes. Maybe if Nike or Sony got a tax break they could afford to hire some retirees in south Florida to sew athletic shoes together. Until then they will go to the sweatshops in southeast Asia. That being said, what happens when the goods reach our shores? Anyone home Ray? They may be manufactured overseas, but the distribution channel is staffed with Americans from the customs broker to your local store or home delivery guy. Your Air Jordans paid some guy in Taiwan 1¢ (which probably bought food for a whole day in his country), a few bucks to the customs agent, some US tax duty, truck or rail carrier, wholesale distributor, more truck/rail, retail center, maybe the FedEx or UPS guy if you bought thru Eastbay.

Your rationale is oversimplified and has a hard spin to the left Ray. If you want to raise a ruckus don't be selective in your facts.

quote Originally posted by ray b: HOW MANY CO. invest in american JOBS NOW???? most seem to be exporting them to other countrys for cheap labor. see any made in USA stickers on shoes [like nike or rebock].ADDS are all they make in USA. we invented TV's are there any made in USA now??? NO, vcrs NO, DVDs no.my new computer monitor a philips magnavox was made in CHINA I looked for a made in USA UNIT but no luck as all are from far east countrys now. SO how do tax credits help us get more jobs HERE AND NOW??????? I have owned a trailer, all my boats and houses free and clear with out any loans ever. so do not get the tax breaks that support the banks and S&L's HIGH RATEs. I invest in GINNYMAY's and CD's some and mostly in collectables and art. I have owned and run two small biz's myself and worked in big biz tooo. BUT FAIL TO UNDERSTAND why rich should pay a rate less than I do in total tax. thanks to a state goverment pension plan i could retire now but will not yet.

I think the world is about to end.... *CRASH!* SH SH SH SH SH SH SH SH SH SH SH....

I ACtually AGREE with Ray on something: YES, local companies (both US and Canadian) are exporting jobs overseas. Yes, almost nothing is made locally anymore.

NOW, the part that I agree with is over.
Ray, think about this:
#1. If you provide tax cuts to the rich, PERHAPS they will find an incentive to KEEP some of those jobs in North America. It IS the rich that own the companies and it is the desire for increased profits (greed if you will) that drives jobs away from here. Now, give the business owner a break and, just maybe, his costs will go down and he'll decide to stay rather than move his operations to China.

#2. The rich are paying pretty damn high taxes, you're just looking at it the wrong way. Let's use this example for argument's sake: if the middle class guy makes $50,000 per year and pays 25% in taxes, he will pay $12,500 in income tax, right? Now take the rich guy. Let's say he makes $200,000 and pays 30% in tax. That means he will dish out a total of $60,000 in tax!!!! Does that make sense?

Yeah, I kinda envy the rich too - who doesn't? But that doesn't mean that we have to bring their income level to the same level as ours through taxing them more. Then what would be the point of being rich?

Exactly voytec. Why work hard? Why start a company that provides entertainment, goods and services? If you are going to be attacked until you make the same as a guy that works the standard 40 and goes home?