Maryjane ever rear the code of laws by hammurrabi king of babylon that containes
the 10 commandments in their original form way before moses stold them.
every culture has laws/rules and most forbid killing and stealing.
cubans ref's come for the $$$$ they hate freedom we have here and lov fascist GOP plans like bush has for us.

fogglethorpe how bout this QUOTE"I come with a sword to set brother againts brother...."jc

DHR laws should never be based on fairy tales, only on facts not feelings.

TRiAD no christians are not the taliban but the underlaying evil is the same as is the harm they can and have done to all those who are not in agreement with the plan as they see it.WHENEVER SOMEONE THINKS GOD[any god] IS ON MY SIDE so.... LOOK OUT BAD SHIITT IS COMING SOON.
paranoia is fear without reason I have 1,000,000,000 reasons to fear christians as that is the number they have killed.

falconhulk you are off by 4236 in total posts and as less than 100 were about christians so your off by 4900 learn to count

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Question wonder and be wierd

quote Originally posted by Mach10: Voytek: I'm paraphrasing. I've read the bible, cover to cover, a total of 12 times in my life. The bible had a LOT to say about old-testament wrath and smiting. That's the "hate" part. Hate the sin, not the sinner? I remember that... But it's still nice to see that Gay-bashing is still a national sport.

You need to read it again, and since you claim to be a believer, pray that He will guide you to understanding through His Spirit. That's the ONLY way the Bible will ever mean anything to you, or anyone.

I am not a gay-basher. I don't know any Christians who are.

quote Yes, I'm angry. Religion does that. I'll get over it. I'm still friends with whoever's in this thread. My opinion stays here. It's not important, see? I'm not really biased. Ok, I tell a lie. In this thread, I'm slagging the faith pretty bad. I defend Christianity when it suits me. At this moment in time, it doesn't. I can give PLENTY of reasons why christianity is a good thing. But it wouldn't be constructive to my arguments.

Glad to see the honesty here. Hopefully HE doesn't decide it doesn't suit HIM to "defend" YOU when the time comes.

quote I have sampled several different brands of Christianity. I bounced from Mennonite, to Baptist, to Protestant, and back to Catholic.

Uh, Mennonite and Baptist ARE Protestant denominations. Try again.

quote I've read up on others. You know WHY I went back to Catholicism? Because the same hipocritical BULLSHIT is present WHEREVER there are people in the Congregation. Hipocracy is human nature. Triad: I don't feel that I mis-understood anything. EVERYTHING in the bible is subject to interpretation. Don't get me wrong. I have strong faith in Jesus, and in God... I have ABSOLUTELY NO FAITH in the church. Far too much crap has gone on in the past for that. This is from ALL walks of Christianity. Jesus would be being violently sick if he was around us (in the physical sense) today.

Again, I find myself agreeing with your unhappiness with the state of the church today...so, what are YOU doing to MAKE IT BETTER?
That's right, it's easy to complain about how bad things are; has it ever ocurred to you that you're aware of the problems in the church because you're supposed to help FIX them?!

quote So go ahead, pick up another rock.

You just did it for me.

Email me if you'd like to continue your discussion with me.

Triad: Pm OK? I have no qualms defending my arguments.

quote Originally posted by ray b: DHR laws should never be based on fairy tales, only on facts not feelings.

Why wouldn't we start exterminating anyone that was in any way genetically inferior or was a burden on society? Looking at it purely from a scientific standpoint, wouldn't we become a stronger species since only the best would reproduce and we wouldn't waste valuable resources on those that had nothing to contribute?

Catholics are Christians. That is the basis of Rays arguments. True, the later schisms resulted in the multi-denominational christian faiths we see today. But the "1,000,000" deaths were done in JC's name. As a christian/Catholic, *I* have to live with that. It was your ancestors taht did it, too.

Mach,
yeah, got your PM, let's take it to email.

For the record, the acts he's complaining about from the Catholics are one of the reasons why the protestants left. "My ancestors" disagreed with the church/dictatorship idea, left it (those who weren't killed for their beliefs by said Catholic church) and came here and founded a "free" society.

And Catholics are NOT Christians.
Their belief that "The Catholic Church is the ONLY true path to God, and all others are doomed" seperates us.

Any Catholic wanting to argue their Christianity should inquire with their preist. He'll tell you that I'm right, and that Catholics aren't Christians.

No RayB, I haven't 'reared' anything but 4 children and a few heads of livestock. I am
however, familar with Hammurrabi and his 'codes'. He was ruler of ancient Babylon in the 1700's BC. His codes were set down in the name of Bel Marduk, the idol god worshipped at that time in Mesapotamia (sp?). There were over 25 rules or laws in this code, most with a punishment of death.
One law resolved a person's guilt or innocence by throwing him in a river. If he drowned, he was guilty, if he came out, he was innocent. And yes, RayB, there is a lot of paranoia here. Some people continually rant about hoiw scared and frightened they are and how they are being unfairly persecuted here in this democracy. They are so paranoid in fact, they constantly blame everyone else for their woes and shake and quiver so much, they can't type a complete sentence. Been going on for some time, but so far, there are few takers on these spiels.
Wonder why? After all, the sky IS falling, the world IS flat, and beyond this point, THERE BE DRAGONS. To be sure, we keep defending their right to their beliefs and freedom of speech. THAT right having been defended countless times by those whose swords are not unstained. But, to borrow a line from Jack N., I wish they'd go peddle crazy somewhere else, we're all full up here.

quote Originally posted by TRiAD: Mach, yeah, got your PM, let's take it to email. For the record, the acts he's complaining about from the Catholics are one of the reasons why the protestants left. "My ancestors" disagreed with the church/dictatorship idea, left it (those who weren't killed for their beliefs by said Catholic church) and came here and founded a "free" society. And Catholics are NOT Christians. Their belief that "The Catholic Church is the ONLY true path to God, and all others are doomed" seperates us. Any Catholic wanting to argue their Christianity should inquire with their preist. He'll tell you that I'm right, and that Catholics aren't Christians.

Ah, this is true. The *only* true faith is through the Catholic church, the church of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost... Etc...

It's an argument of semantics (seminaries? ) so it'll end here... Where were we? I think I'm lost! I'll find my place... Worry not, dear readers

quote Originally posted by Mach10: All right, you twisted my arm... Ray: Sorry bud! Hammurabi had a total of 282 laws. The Law Code stone was found at Susa, Elam, in 1901. MJ: Sorry, but Hammurabi was given his [b]282 laws directly from Shamash, the Sun God, and God of Justice. Some excerpts: "If a Fire broke out in a Man's house, and a man who went to extinguish it cast his eye on the goods of the owner of the house and has appropriated the goods of the owner of the house, that man shall be thrown into the fire -§25" "If a physician performed a major operation on a Man with a bronze lancet and caused the mans death, or he opened up the eye-socket of a man and has destroyed the man's eye, they shall cut off his hand -§219" So from this, we can infer that a) Shamash liked run-on sentences, and b) distrusted doctors -Ancient Civilizations, Scarre & Fagan So anyway... Back to fundamentalism... We're busy arguing ancient history... I'm not sure I can even tie this in... [/B]

I didn't say Marduk gave Hammurabi the laws, I said they were set down in his name.
"The king who ruleth among the kings of the cities am I. My words are well considered; there is no wisdom like unto mine. By the command of Samash, the great judge of heaven and earth,let rightousness go forth in the land; BY THE ORDER OF MARDUK, my lord, let no destruction befall my monument. (caps are mine for effect- he is refering to the stone pillar that is inscribed with the code of laws) In E-Sagil, which I love, let my name be ever repeated;let the oppressed, who has a case at law, come and stand before my image as king of rightousness; let him read the inscription, and understand my precious words: the inscription will explain this case to him; he will find out what is just, and his heart will be glad, so he will say:

"Hammurabi is a ruler,who is a father
to his subjects, who holds the words of
Marduk in reverence, who has achieved
conquest for Marduk over the north and
the south, who rejoices the heart of
Marduk, his lord, who has bestowed benefits
for ever and ever on his subjects, and has
established order in the land"

your just proving my points debating which cult is the true christians and who's not as if the was a god there could only be one religion to worship him his way and he would tell them the way he wanted. but as there is no god each man is free to con others in his name how ever the man wants to.

I favor the only religion that didnot belive in it's own god MITHRAISM in it later forms it only sought to keep the knowlage of the procession of the equinoxes from taurus to aries and now pisces and soon to be in aquarius[as in dawning of the age of aquarius].
SOL INVICTUS [sun in victory] on 12-25 was the major holiday as the winter solstice had past and day grew longer again by then.
free mason's are somewhat the desendents of this movement.
roman army followed this belife untill it's end.

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Question wonder and be wierd

Good Lord, send for the Paramedics!! I'm havin an attack. The world must be at an end.RayB actually said he "favored" a religion.

I'm impressed, MJ...

Still seems to me, though, that the rules were written, and set down by Samash. The reference to Marduk in this case seems to be an incantation to sanctify the tablet, and preserve it... I could be wrong though. NEVER trust an english interpretation of a 3000-years EXTINCT language

See? Ray makes perfect sense, sometimes

quote Originally posted by ray b: ...but as there is no god each man is free to con others in his name how ever the man wants to...

Ray, you're pushing your beliefs (or lack thereof) down our throats with your constant repetition of "there is no god"...

We all know your views, you can stop spouting now.

you all are going on the assumption that all protestants, catholics, etc. are Christians. Belonging to a religion or church does not make you a Christian.

quote Originally posted by Jaygee79: you all are going on the assumption that all protestants, catholics, etc. are Christians. Belonging to a religion or church does not make you a Christian.

Maybe I'm wrong here, but my idea of a "Christian" is one that follows the teachings of Jesus Christ. By that logic, Mennonites, Mormons, Protestants, Catholics, Baptists, Puritans, and JWs are all Christians. The implementation differs, and from then on, it's semantics

It's a silly argument, and dangerously close to "You don't have the real religion, *I* do." Kinda like what ray b said.

quote Originally posted by Mach10: Maybe I'm wrong here, but my idea of a "Christian" is one that follows the teachings of Jesus Christ. By that logic, Mennonites, Mormons, Protestants, Catholics, Baptists, Puritans, and JWs are all Christians. The implementation differs, and from then on, it's semantics It's a silly argument, and dangerously close to "You don't have the real religion, *I* do." Kinda like what ray b said.

My point was that sitting in a church pew for an hour and a half once a week doesn't make you a Christian. Being Catholic or Protestant or whatever doesn't necessarily mean you're a true Christian. It's the beliefs and the lifestyle that goes along with it that makes you a Christian. A lot of people think that just because you go to church means you are a Christian. That's where a lot of the "the Catholics killed so-and-so many people..." comes from. Well they may have been Catholics but obviously they weren't Christians. BTW, Jehovas Witnesses are not Christians, and some may argue that Mormons aren't either (I personally don't know).

quote Originally posted by Jaygee79: My point was that sitting in a church pew for an hour and a half once a week doesn't make you a Christian. Being Catholic or Protestant or whatever doesn't necessarily mean you're a true Christian. It's the beliefs and the lifestyle that goes along with it that makes you a Christian. A lot of people think that just because you go to church means you are a Christian. That's where a lot of the "the Catholics killed so-and-so many people..." comes from. Well they may have been Catholics but obviously they weren't Christians. BTW, Jehovas Witnesses are not Christians, and some may argue that Mormons aren't either (I personally don't know).

i know some jws that would disagree heartily. actually, i'm sitting across a cubicle from one. many people define "christian" as one who follows his teachings... what other definition do you want?
mormons also call themselves the "church of jesus christ of latterday saints" where i live. same deal.

but that was a very good point. it's not about going to church that makes you a christian, it's your actions and how you live your life.

the horrible bs that occured in the middle ages, (and later) was done in jc's name. arguably the people doing the heinous acts believed they were doing what was right and just. the problem was that the rest of the congregation went along too. if god came before you and told you to do something no matter how brutal would you not do it? think abraham and his son at the altar. it's the same dillema.

my problem is that i don't believe that god/jc told these people to do that sort of thing. i don't think witches/witchraft are evil any more than a firearm. i think that everybody has an equal capacity for ill ****. now if i take that into account i'm already a heretic as per my faith. so what parts of my bible are genuine? which parts were modified to suit the inquistiton? the witch trials? any number of the various persecutions that have prevaded christian history. what part of the bible is the right part? this is my problem with religion. actually people are my problem with religion.

Jehova's Witnesses are NOT a recognized religion by the US. They are, by definition, a cult. They also do NOT count on the Name of Jesus for their resurrection, rendering their donctrine useless.

Mormons are now a recognized religion, but have never been considered to be "Christians". Their doctrine differs from the Bible in many, many ways, even though the Bible is one of te books they teach from.

We need to understand the definition and the meaning of the word Christian.

Basically, anyone who depends on the Name of Jesus for their salvation is saved. Anyone who gives their lives to Him and lets Him direct their lives is a Christian.

There are many "other" religions and beliefs with other gods, leaders, ideals, etc. Many would LOVE to be called "Christians", but in fact fall short.

This is VERY basic, but you get the idea.

quote Originally posted by TRiAD: Jehova's Witnesses are NOT a recognized religion by the US. They are, by definition, a cult. They also do NOT count on the Name of Jesus for their resurrection, rendering their donctrine useless. Mormons are now a recognized religion, but have never been considered to be "Christians". Their doctrine differs from the Bible in many, many ways, even though the Bible is one of te books they teach from. We need to understand the definition and the meaning of the word Christian. Basically, anyone who depends on the Name of Jesus for their salvation is saved. Anyone who gives their lives to Him and lets Him direct their lives is a Christian. There are many "other" religions and beliefs with other gods, leaders, ideals, etc. Many would LOVE to be called "Christians", but in fact fall short. This is VERY basic, but you get the idea.

well the jws *are* a recognised religion in canada... as are mormons... this is starting to turn sour folks. it's starting to become x and y aren't real religions, *z* is the only religion. no way in *hell* am i getting involved in that.

quote Originally posted by Mach10: i know some jws that would disagree heartily. actually, i'm sitting across a cubicle from one. many people define "christian" as one who follows his teachings... what other definition do you want?

a Christian is someone who follows His teachings, and also accepts Him as their Lord and saviour. JW's don't believe that. They think he was just a plain old guy. My grandmother is a JW. Once when I was young I told her how I watched a movie on TV about Jesus. She got mad and said that my mother shouldn't let me watch that crap. So no, I personally don't think they are Christians

I think what Jaygee79 is refering to is what we used to call 'Sermons on Sunday & sinning on Monday" type of thing, not what denomination you claim. You know, banker is in front row every Sunday, foreclosing on the unfortunate's homes on monday so he can have a wad of cash to throw in the plate when it is passed around. I really don't care what you believe in, as long as it is not forced on me. Like I say, it's all faith-based anyway, even atheism. None of us can say with 100% sureness what is right, only what is right for ourselves. You could just as easily substitute the words Fiero, Mustang, Corvette, republican, democrat, or independant in these discussions and the same would hold true. To each his own with no malice held for others.

quote Originally posted by Mach10: well the jws *are* a recognised religion in canada... as are mormons... this is starting to turn sour folks. it's starting to become x and y aren't real religions, *z* is the only religion. no way in *hell* am i getting involved in that.

it doesn't really matter if they are recognized religions (at least not IMHO), just whether or not they are Christian (isn't that what this was about? maybe i missed something). I just don't want people to have the wrong idea of what constitutes a Christian. It takes more than just saying you're one to make you one. I like MJ's example.

quote Originally posted by maryjane: I think what Jaygee79 is refering to is what we used to call 'Sermons on Sunday & sinning on Monday" type of thing, not what denomination you claim. You know, banker is in front row every Sunday, foreclosing on the unfortunate's homes on monday so he can have a wad of cash to throw in the plate when it is passed around. I really don't care what you believe in, as long as it is not forced on me. Like I say, it's all faith-based anyway, even atheism. None of us can say with 100% sureness what is right, only what is right for ourselves. You could just as easily substitute the words Fiero, Mustang, Corvette, republican, democrat, or independant in these discussions and the same would hold true. To each his own with no malice held for others.

well put.

jaygee: i think we're both thinking the same thing but our words are getting tangled. mj said it better than i did...

as for jws all the ones i know (i am on good terms with 3 families) are "christian" in the aforementioned sense... maybe there are different factions? whatever, the original intent of this thread has been lost entirely.

it started as addressing a loaded question to a recognised "religious expert" (billy grahams daughter?) who replied with the usual dogmatic toss-the-blame-around response. i hit back at it hard, and we've been bickering ever since. i don't know that we've accomplished anything...
well, that's not true. i've accomplished a lot... i blew 2 whole shifts writing responses here. that's awesome!

anyhoo, unless anyone has anything valid to add to the discussion (and i'm perfectly willing to carry on) i'm thinking we should end it here more or less.

i'm impressed! a long religious debate that hasn't resulted in a cliff-brand smack-down

way to go people!

[This message has been edited by Mach10 (edited 11-19-2001).]

quote Originally posted by DRH: Why wouldn't we start exterminating anyone that was in any way genetically inferior or was a burden on society? Looking at it purely from a scientific standpoint, wouldn't we become a stronger species since only the best would reproduce and we wouldn't waste valuable resources on those that had nothing to contribute?

who gets to pick what is inferior and who is a burden is steven hawking an reject as he can't walk and talk. or some dummy who is a sports star but can't think or act like a usefull person and is a danger to others???
who will be in charge of this program goverment, insurance co, doctors, or what???
who knows what is the best way to force evolution and in what derection to take???
migets may be the best crew for starships or those with out legs.
morals are not only found in religion every one needs good laws and to respect each others rights.
killing is not the way to cull bad geans just a licence to breed, but we are no where near the point of that yet.

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Question wonder and be wierd

oh great. eugenics *again*.... didn't you guys try that in the 20s? oh wait, canada did too

eugenics is bad.... sterilizing people is bad.... m'kay?

while i think that genetic manipulation can be a good thing and that cleaning up things like cancer or cystic fibrosis would be good we have to find ways of doing this *without* denying a person's right to breed.

Haven't read the whole thread, but I did read something funny: Christians are the ones who follow the teachings of Christ. Well, funny here is, the Muslims also accept Christ as a prophet(sp?), they just see Mohammed as the last prophet. So Muslims are in a way Christians as well

Just my funny $0.02

quote Originally posted by ray b: who gets to pick what is inferior and who is a burden is steven hawking an reject as he can't walk and talk. or some dummy who is a sports star but can't think or act like a usefull person and is a danger to others??? who will be in charge of this program goverment, insurance co, doctors, or what??? who knows what is the best way to force evolution and in what derection to take??? migets may be the best crew for starships or those with out legs. morals are not only found in religion every one needs good laws and to respect each others rights. killing is not the way to cull bad geans just a licence to breed, but we are no where near the point of that yet.

You tell me rayb. My post was in response to your post that laws should be based on facts, not feelings. How would you make a case for keeping 'burdens to society' alive with just facts?

The idea that people even have rights is a feeling, not a fact. There is not one bit of scientific evidence that any of us have a right to do anything.

that's it! i'm not reading any more posts by ray. it takes too much work!

quote Originally posted by Screwie: Haven't read the whole thread, but I did read something funny: Christians are the ones who follow the teachings of Christ. Well, funny here is, the Muslims also accept Christ as a prophet(sp?), they just see Mohammed as the last prophet. So Muslims are in a way Christians as well Just my funny $0.02

This is where ignorance takes over.

Muslims do NOT believe in the Diety of Christ, only that he was a prophet. The do NOT worship Him or rely on Him for their Salvation.

This isn't worth continuing if you people are going to intentionally be stupid about it. Learn your beliefs if you're going to argue them.

Laters.

quote Originally posted by DRH: You tell me rayb. My post was in response to your post that laws should be based on facts, not feelings. How would [b]you make a case for keeping 'burdens to society' alive with just facts? The idea that people even have rights is a feeling, not a fact. There is not one bit of scientific evidence that any of us have a right to do anything. [/B]

bill of rights in our "C"
french rights of man
UN declareation of rights of man
and many others list rights of men
and as laws of the land and inforced by goverments they are more than feelings.

point of my post you quoted is I don't know who is a burdon now or in the future DO YOU ?????

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Question wonder and be wierd

not a valid reply, Ray. He specified "scientific" evidence, not ideological or geo-political documents. You are fond of reminding us all, that the words on paper do not prove the existance of
something you can neither see nor touch, you can't have it both ways. Legal, or constitutional laws & science related laws are not the same. You know this.

OK THEN YOU MUST BELEVE IN LAWS THAT ARE JUST
AND BE READY TO FIGHT AGAINST UNJUST CHANGES
TO THEM LIKE BUSH AND GANG PLAN NOW!!!!!

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Question wonder and be wierd

quote Originally posted by ray b: OK THEN YOU MUST BELEVE IN LAWS THAT ARE JUST AND BE READY TO FIGHT AGAINST UNJUST CHANGES TO THEM LIKE BUSH AND GANG PLAN NOW!!!!!

OK, Many times you have you have brought up these "laws" that are being changed and are "unjust", Which laws exactly do you not agree with?

quote Originally posted by ray b: bill of rights in our "C" french rights of man UN declareation of rights of man and many others list rights of men and as laws of the land and inforced by goverments they are more than feelings. point of my post you quoted is I don't know who is a burdon now or in the future DO YOU ?????

I said the idea that we have rights is a feeling. Considering the Constitution was written by the same people that wrote the Declaration of Independence, I'd say they are based largely on the feeling that these rights were given to us by a Creator. These feelings were made into law which is exactly what you said shouldn't happen. The only difference is you agree with some and disagree with others.

No, I don't know who is a burden. Who should figure it out? The people you say that should be making laws based on fact, not feelings. My question still stands; based on facts, why wouldn't they start passing such laws? BTW, I don't think we should be doing this. I'm just trying to play out your scenario.

quote Originally posted by TRiAD: This is where ignorance takes over. Muslims do NOT believe in the Diety of Christ, only that he was a prophet. The do NOT worship Him or rely on Him for their Salvation. This isn't worth continuing if you people are going to intentionally be stupid about it. Learn your beliefs if you're going to argue them. Laters.

Hoho, take it easy man First of all, I'm not ignorant, you even say that what I say is true. The part where Muslims are in a way Christian is just my funny interpretation of that fact. Second of all, none of the above mentioned is my religion, and third I'm not arguing about it. So next time I appreciate it if you don't call me stupid and ignorant, thank you very much. A bit of respect for eachother would do a lot of good.

quote Originally posted by Oreif: OK, Many times you have you have brought up these "laws" that are being changed and are "unjust", Which laws exactly do you not agree with?

MOSTLY IF ASHCROFT IS FOR IT I AM AGAINTS IT
LIKE BUSH'S PAY THE AIRLINES NOT THE WORKERS
9-11 RELIFE LAWS OR TAX REFORM RICH GETS THE CUTS WORKERS GET SQUAT.
OR THE EFFORT TO STOP OREGON VOTER PASTED LAWS ABOUT POT FOR ILL,AND DOC ACCESTED LIFE ENDING FOR TERMINALLY ILL.
WHAT HAPPEN TO STATE'S RIGHTS THE KKK MAN FORGOT ABOUT THEM????? OR GOD FIRST LAWS WAY BEHIND????

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Question wonder and be wierd

Wow..that's a lot of reading. You know what I think is funny....every person thinks their religion is the only one, and the others are wrong. I never understood where in the bible or anywhere it says that. Isn't that passing judgement on others which is against one of the ten commandments? Why cant we all just take the example that Jesus showed us and love each other? Doesn't matter what religion you belong to, weather you are a homosexual, have premarital sex, believe in abortions, whatever. IF we all lived by the bible and what we believed in we wouldn't argue on this stupid stuff all the time! Just my thoughts. I wont even go into some of what I think..because my keyboard cant handle it . Have a great day and try to get along!

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James Essar
AOL IM Name: FieroMaster88
Not your ordinary 88 coupe!

Being ignorant doesn't mean you're stupid. Look it up.

It's not namecalling, it's pointing out a fact.

Calling Muslims Christians will get you killed (in Islamic nations, by the Muslims), so I think a little warning is fair.