Was surfing the net reading info on arab/israel conflict and came upon this piece - not something you'd see in the news, it being based on fact (I checked the historically correctness, I try not accept anything I read on the net as truth, unless its posted on pennock's of course), pro-israel, and written by an arab. Anyways here it is:

"The term Palestine was originally invented by the Roman Emperor Hadrian to symbolize the permanent destruction of any Jewish presence in the Land of Israel. Hadrian mispronounced the name of the Philistines, Israel's ancient bloody enemies who were notorious for throwing their children into the fire as human sacrifices to their pagan god.
The term "Philistines" comes from the Hebrew word plishim, which means "foreign invaders." The Philistines were universally known to be foreign trespassers who had no right to the land which they had conquered.
Ironically, by adopting this name, the foreign Arab invaders in Israel today are effectively acknowledging that they too have no right to the land.
For nearly 2,000 years, the Jews have been forcibly exiled from their historic homeland. Despite this, there was always a Jewish presence in the land even during the darkest periods of the Muslim conquests, the Mongolian invasions, the Crusades, the Turkish Ottoman occupation and finally the Nazi occupation in the 1930's and 40's.
Overall, however, the land was desolate and uninhabited. British census figures showed that in the latter part of the 19th century, there were only 200,000 residents in all of what today is Israel as well as all of what today is the state of "Jordan." And roughly a fifth of those residents were Jews. The Arab claim that there are now some 10 million "Palestinians" is an absurdity.
There are no "Palestinians" and there is no "Palestine." The vast majority of the Arabs who currently reside in the State of Israel immigrated to the land from Egypt in the first half of this century in order to obtain employment and other economic opportunities from the growing Jewish community.
"There is no Palestine in history, absolutely not," said Dr. Hitti, the official spokesman for all of the Arab nations and for the Arabs living in Israel, while testifying before the Anglo-American Commission in 1946. In 1948, the Arab League, representing the entire Arab world, declared before the United Nations that there was "no Palestine" and that all of Israel is part of southern Syria."
All of a sudden, in the 1960s, the Arabs decided to invent the myth that a separate Arab nation called "Palestine" once existed.
The Leader of the PLO is Yasser Arafat. Arafat was born, raised and educated in Cairo, Egypt. Like almost all of the Arabs who claim to be part of this mythical people, he is in every respect an Egyptian. "

I'm just curious as to where all these references to pagan sacrifices keep coming from, possibly related to the traditional distorted christian view of wiccans, aka "witches"??

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steve@fieroproject.com
http://www.fieroproject.com

The Philistines were Baal worshippers, hence the reference to human sacrifice.

"There incense and perfumes were burned (IV Kings, xxii, 5; Jer., vii, 9, xi, 13, and according to the Hebrew, xxxii, 29), libations poured (Jer., xix, 13), and sacrifices of oxen and other animals offered up to the Baal; we hear even (Jer., vii, 31;xix, 5;xxxii, 35; II Par., xxviii 3) that children of both sexes were not infrequentlly burned in sacrifice to Melek (D. V. Moloch, A.V. Molech), and II Par., xxviii, 3 (perhaps also IV Kings, xxi, 6 ) tells us that young princes were occasionally chosen as victims to this stern deity."
( http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02175a.htm )

Philistines were phonicians[modern lebonon] who founded carthage romes enemy[hanibal] and that riff is very old propaganda by the winner of the punic wars rezirected by the jews who came from egypt too see exiodus.
no religious state is moral all are evil.

sub riff, jews one god was started by king tut's dad amon and "jews" are egyptians that followed tut's dad new religion and left after old gods return to power on the dads death. timing is right on check the dates.

nazi occupation???? never happened brits ruled 1918 till 1947 partition nazi never got near there other side of egypt [libya] was as close as they came.

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Question wonder and be wierd

[This message has been edited by ray b (edited 11-15-2001).]

Interesting but inaccurate. I don't want to start a flame war so I won't comment.

Oh well, so much for not responding. The nation of Israel ceased to exist in 607 BCE. That was when the Babylonian empire destroyed Jerusalem. After that point there was no more Jewish King from the line of David. The Northern 10 tribe Kingdom had broken off from Judah years before 607, but it also ceased to exist. From that time on Israel has been an occupied land. Babylon, Assyria, Medo-Persia, Rome and others have all claimed ownership of the land. But I beg to differ that the Muslim rule was dark and secluded in ignorance. Muslims are resposible for our method of counting, reading and education. Muslim universities taught many how to read and write when Europe was in the dark ages. Muslims have been extreemly tolerant in past ages when it comes to religion. PBS had a fantasitic program on the history and theology of Islam. I'm not saying the Palestinians are right or wrong, nor am I saying the Jews are right or wrong. These people in the middle east have lived beside each other for hundreds if not thousands of years. Why is it that now they can't share the land? Look at India and Pakistan. Bottom line is that extreem fanatical devotion to religion is the cause of most of the worlds problems today.

Fanatical devotion to SELF is the cause of most of the world's problems, with or without religion.

quote Originally posted by frontal lobe: Fanatical devotion to SELF is the cause of most of the world's problems, with or without religion.

Somebody hit the nail on the Head!

if people are devoted to themselves above all else, why are there so many people fighting with religious motivations???

thanks for the info btw, I'm not too familiar with Baal.. but I do know a lot of people have some pretty wacked out ideas about wiccans.. wicca = satan worship is one of the most common incorrect ideas.. sorry for jumping the gun there, I was posting from work and had to type fast as my boss was walking down the hall towards the office, and I had to post a truncated version of my message, and then get back to work.

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steve@fieroproject.com
http://www.fieroproject.com

quote Originally posted by frontal lobe: Fanatical devotion to SELF is the cause of most of the world's problems, with or without religion.

Yes! I'm not bashing religion, actually I'm very religious. But the most important thing is to have an open mind towards other peoples culture and beliefs. I think we can all agree on that.

quote Originally posted by Jay: Yes! I'm not bashing religion, actually I'm very religious. But the most important thing is to have an open mind towards other peoples culture and beliefs. I think we can all agree on that. [/B]

Amen to that! (Sorry I couldn't resist)

quote Originally posted by DaRkLoRD: if people are devoted to themselves above all else, why are there so many people fighting with religious motivations??? thanks for the info btw, I'm not too familiar with Baal.. but I do know a lot of people have some pretty wacked out ideas about wiccans.. wicca = satan worship is one of the most common incorrect ideas.. sorry for jumping the gun there, I was posting from work and had to type fast as my boss was walking down the hall towards the office, and I had to post a truncated version of my message, and then get back to work.

They aren't fighting FOR the religion, they are fighting for themselves, and justifying their actions by religion. It's all for Personal gain, whether spiritual, or physical. Basically the guy running at your home with a torch isn't doing it because God told him to, but because he's like every other snake-mo'fo on this world, and trying to get ahead. Maybe you have better land. Maybe your race is percieved by him to be "favored," Maybe 100s of years ago, some of your ancestors insulted his. Regardless, the reasoning is the same. I can guarantee you if Jerusalem was some God-awful reeking swamp, no-one would be fighting over it >:\

[This message has been edited by Mach10 (edited 11-15-2001).]

quote Originally posted by ray b: sub riff, jews one god was started by king tut's dad amon and "jews" are egyptians that followed tut's dad new religion and left after old gods return to power on the dads death. timing is right on check the dates.

I believe the King Tut's dad was Akhenaton (
(http://www.geocities.com/TheTropics/2815/tut.html) (His name was actually Amenhotep IV, but he changed it after his "revolution".. Akenaton means "Aton is satisfied" will explain later...) - amun was actually part of king tuts full name, King Tut-Ankh-Amun. Akhenanton didn't actually believe in/create the idea of an abstract god, he moved the emphasis from emperors being god to the sun being god.

In egypitian culture Kings were seen as Gods themselves. "Thus physically the Pharaoh was the human embodiment of the divine powers sf the Nile and .f vegetation, of life, death and resurrection sf Osiris and Horus" (http://mars.wnec.edu/~grempel/courses/wc1/lectures/03akhenaton.html) When Akhenanton became king he took a wife which did not look like the "standard" egyptian (there is speculation that she was black). Akhenanton children as well picked up these "peculilar" physical charecteristics (This is seen through the art which has been recovered and identified from his time). As a result of this it can be speculated that Akhenanton felt the need to move the focus of religion away from the physical of the kings (who weren't physically perfect) and moved towards something which was abstract, yet still physical at the same time (The sun). "He tried to replace the traditional, official Egyptian religion of Amarna by a new concept of god. Although still embodied in the sun, this concept, called Aton, was understood more abstractly and monotheistically. This meant that he had to make a revolution. He had to attack and destroy the traditional patterns of religion, which were thoroughly woven into every aspect of Egyptian life. He had to change the theology, ritual and ecclesiastical structure"

Even Amenhotep's God was a form of Idol Worship, which is what seperates his beliefs from teh Jewish beliefs of the same time. It appears to be more likely that Amenhotep in fact attempted to adopt Jewish beliefs into Egyptians Beliefs, rather then the other way around.

It must not be forgotten though that Many Jews of that time did practice Egyptian beliefs, and at one time they almost were destroyed by god as a result of it (or at least thats how the story in the old testament goes - the golden calf).

Anyways, I have work to do... I'm not trying to start a flame war, just thought I'd attempt to clear some things up.. (BTW I'm by no means an expert on this, I just checked 4-5 different web pages onthe subject which all more or less said the same thing... so please feel free to correct me)

nobody ever got burned in a flame war and religion debates will start one but in the wake of 9-11's real flames computer bs is a good way to blow off steam i only try to fight about ideas and not attack people just ideas.

history is allways the story told by the winners but all storys have many points of veiw.
your are correct on names and sungod but bible is not on the spot record it claims to be most real scholars think one man wrote most of first part about 3-400 bce note that pharaol is not named in the bible and no pharaol ever died in red sea or lost a army there.lot of facts donot fit bible based history and only a few do fit it.and real records even the deadsea scolls are all eary a.c.e.

founder stories all have heros but stones tell real story and no record of any eary jews can be found pre mid 300's bce in stones even on tenple mt. unlike egypts tut and dad who may be the first jew.
but no belife is unchanged by time and no they were not instant jews that took time to slowly come about long after his name was forgotten.
but there are records of nubian [black] pharaols ruleing both upper and lower egypt.

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Question wonder and be wierd

quote Originally posted by ray b: nobody ever got burned in a flame war and religion debates will start one but in the wake of 9-11's real flames computer bs is a good way to blow off steam i only try to fight about ideas and not attack people just ideas. history is allways the story told by the winners but all storys have many points of veiw. your are correct on names and sungod but bible is not on the spot record it claims to be most real scholars think one man wrote most of first part about 3-400 bce note that pharaol is not named in the bible and no pharaol ever died in red sea or lost a army there.lot of facts donot fit bible based history and only a few do fit it.and real records even the deadsea scolls are all eary a.c.e. founder stories all have heros but stones tell real story and no record of any eary jews can be found pre mid 300's bce in stones even on tenple mt. unlike egypts tut and dad who may be the first jew. but no belife is unchanged by time and no they were not instant jews that took time to slowly come about long after his name was forgotten. but there are records of nubian [black] pharaols ruleing both upper and lower egypt.

Check your pms

Ray is right on all these points. IMHO, Christians are FOOLISH for treating a 2000-year old MAN-MADE document as (ahem) Gospel. I believe in the message, not the words. Created in 7 days? Sure... But who's defining the days? Somewhere in that book says that inthe kingdom of God, one second is a million years... Read the message, not the words. Words are from people, the message is from God.

But look at all the lovely things that Christians have done to other Christians, and done to other people... I'm sorry, but people that can do that wouldhave NO problems "adjusting" the bible. God is deliberately staying out of it. When we sort out our own problems, he'll be back.

[This message has been edited by Mach10 (edited 11-15-2001).]

And the Fiero gods looked down upon the barren earth and saw it was lacking. They placed a small mid engined chariot before the people. But only the true believers did follow as satan cursed the first of the Fieros with his fires from hell.

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My Fiero | Fiero Accessories

DISCLAIMER: I'm not taking any of this as a personal attack, I just can't speak on behalf of anyone else, hence the use of I. (Damn political correctness!)

quote history is allways the story told by the winners but all storys have many points of veiw. your are correct on names and sungod but bible is not on the spot record it claims to be most real scholars think one man wrote most of first part about 3-400 bce

I believe the bible is a "on the spot" record (Read the book "The Torah in History" its pretty long (two volumes 500 pages each) but in terms of historical correctness of the Old Testament its quite good. It's not a history book but it doesn't make any historical claims it can't keep.

quote note that pharaol is not named in the bible

"Pharaol" is named numerous times through the bible (Old testamente), are you refering to the specific name of the Pharaoh? As I said before, I don't feel the bible is a history book, therefore no need for the Pharaohs name, but it does use the word Pharaoh (or at least the hebrew equiv.)

quote and no pharaol ever died in red sea or lost a army there.

"history is allways the story told by the winners but all storys have many points of veiw." If a Pharaoh died in the red sea do you really think he'd write it down? Ancient Civilizations have a tendency to record their victorys, not their defeats. In terms of that whole parting of the sea thing, there is historical proof of that occuring. (The tide actually DOES reach such a low point that you can cross in certain locations at the sea)

quote lot of facts donot fit bible based history and only a few do fit it.and real records even the deadsea scolls are all eary a.c.e.

What facts don't fit (in specific please)?

quote and no record of any eary jews can be found pre mid 300's bce in stones even on tenple mt. unlike egypts tut and dad who may be the first jew.

"history is allways the story told by the winners " - Are slaves winners? what possessions to slaves own? Where does a slave even learn to write? How do you expect to find "stones" left behind by a people whose sole purpose was to put together "stones" for others? Any "stone" they created would appear if it was an Egyptian "stone"...

EDIT:
About the no proof of Jews on the temple mount - that's just pure Palestienien propoganda. If you ever go to Israel there is a tour you can take right by the western wall where you can go through tunnels and see each layer of the old city of jerusalem (If you want to see this tour you have to book a few months ahead, its very cool and popular). This is the same tunnel which caused a huge uprising in the Palestienen Community in Jerusalem a few years ago and some people being killed.
Back to my point : this tunnel actuall goes directly under the temple mount, following the original streets which Jesus and other religous figures must have walked on at one time. It there is still a partial building together underground, called the "Holy of holys", which is right under the temple mount. Only the highest priest could go into this room once a year (On the holiest day of the year). It's written about in the old testament. It is known that this is the holy of holies for two reasons - The dimenions of the walls and location are given in the old testament (and match), and artifacts have been found around the building which further reinforce this idea.

Neat, huh?

[This message has been edited by Adrift (edited 11-15-2001).]

quote Created in 7 days? Sure... But who's defining the days? Somewhere in that book says that inthe kingdom of God, one second is a million years... Read the message, not the words. Words are from people, the message is from God.

I read this great article, I believe it was by Stephen Hawking although I may be wrong.. It was all about traveling at the speed of light and the estimated age of the universe, basically mathimatically turns out if you travel at the speed of light for seven days you end up with a number surprisingly close to that of the estimated age of the universe...

(or at least this is How I understood it with whats left of my grade 12 physics education)

It was a really cool article I wonder if I still have it around here somewhere

quote there is historical proof of that occuring. (The tide actually DOES reach such a low point that you can cross in certain locations at the sea)

By "explaining" parts of the bible with empirical evidence, and showing that that sort of thing happens on a regular basis, you ARE kinda killing it

Oh, and take it from me... Ancient civilizations will write down ANYTHING... But it's usually bill-of-sales
Had to study an old cuniform tablet from Ur, which is a reciept for a farmer for 2 sheep donated to the Temple of Inanna
Winners don't destroy documents, they destroy EVERYTHING. Burn 'em to the ground, salt the earth, and jump on the little pieces that are left

Egyptians were cool about this. Even through their defeats, they recorded EVERYTHING. We have a clear historical Kings list back to ~3000BC. Place of Birth, Time of Death, what he did, and his medical record... Egyptians were good at records

quote By "explaining" parts of the bible with empirical evidence, and showing that that sort of thing happens on a regular basis, you ARE kinda killing it

True!

Every argument raised here is a double edged sword in disguise, why couldn't religion just be simple, like car repair? No, wait a minute....

quote Originally posted by Adrift: True! Every argument raised here is a double edged sword in disguise, why couldn't religion just be simple, like car repair? No, wait a minute....

Hehehe... here's a paraphrased quote from (yet another) Terry Pratchett novel:

"The Great God OM stared in disbelief. How was it that Humans were so fixated on Divine miracles? They were impressed by things like water turning into wine. Ha! A mere quantum reaction! If you were willing to wait several trillion years, it would happen anyway! And yet, they would ignore the TRULY miraculous processes, like how sunlight, through intricate reactions makes the wine in the first place."

bible history is very hazie on who what where and when never names a pharaol so we can date it to a real year
egyptian history is very clear about who did what when and where win or lose it all was recorded.
no dead kings did not record lossed battles but the next kings scribes did and gave real numbers of losses in lands and men that we can read now for every pharaol.
jews temple was rebuilt or maybe built in about 400 bce and again in roman times before it was leveled in 66-70ace revolt.
arabs built dome of rock on site of temple.
red sea is BS it never happened.
jews claim a kingdom pre babalonia war in pre600 bce but no trace found of it or in records of others around them.
david and solomon kings with out a trace in stone records were they real or myths nebuchadnezzer is first real person in bible we can find nonbible record of.

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Question wonder and be wierd

I believe there were coins minted when david and solomon were kings. I remeber seeing these coins in museums (the real deal). You also find them at antique shops all over Israel. If my memory serves me correctly it has a piccture of the vines form the united nations logo with the blue-emblem thing from the centre of the quebec flag. If that isn't Proof of the existence of these Jewish kingdoms I don't know what is...

We've reached the eternal religous discussion standstill. You say "red sea is BS it never happened", I say "Red sea did happen its not BS" - we run in circles. Its getting really late, and I need sleep. Have to go junk yarding tomorrow!

quote Originally posted by ray b: bible history is very hazie on who what where and when never names a pharaol so we can date it to a real year egyptian history is very clear about who did what when and where win or lose it all was recorded. no dead kings did not record lossed battles but the next kings scribes did and gave real numbers of losses in lands and men that we can read now for every pharaol. jews temple was rebuilt or maybe built in about 400 bce and again in roman times before it was leveled in 66-70ace revolt. arabs built dome of rock on site of temple. red sea is BS it never happened. jews claim a kingdom pre babalonia war in pre600 bce but no trace found of it or in records of others around them. david and solomon kings with out a trace in stone records were they real or myths nebuchadnezzer is first real person in bible we can find nonbible record of.

As an Anthropologist (in training ) I'm going to have to agree. There isn't any sign of the "lost Israeli" tribe. Not in ANY written record. Not in any archaeological sense. There's nothing to say that those coins weren't minted after the fact. Show me an archaeological write-up, and I'll believe it. My Canadian Nickel shows a beaver on it. Doesn't mean that we worship/live with/were ruled by beavers

quote Originally posted by Mach10: [QUOTE]My Canadian Nickel shows a beaver on it. Doesn't mean that we worship/live with/were ruled by beavers

Worshipping beaver can't be a bad thing can it

quote Originally posted by Adrift: I believe there were coins minted when david and solomon were kings. I remeber seeing these coins in museums (the real deal). You also find them at antique shops all over Israel. If my memory serves me correctly it has a piccture of the vines form the united nations logo with the blue-emblem thing from the centre of the quebec flag. If that isn't Proof of the existence of these Jewish kingdoms I don't know what is... We've reached the eternal religous discussion standstill. You say "red sea is BS it never happened", I say "Red sea did happen its not BS" -

I use facts like dates of first coins lydia 643-630 bce to say david coins are BS fakes as david was born in 1085 bce or more that 400 years befor first coin was made.TOO BAD REAL HISTORY DOES NOT JIBE WITH THE BIBLE and religious fakes is BIG BIZ IN THE HOLY LAND
"there is enuff wood from the true cross for sale to build the ark of noah" old quote.

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Question wonder and be wierd

quote Originally posted by AusFiero: Worshipping beaver can't be a bad thing can it

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steve@fieroproject.com
http://www.fieroproject.com

quote Originally posted by AusFiero: Worshipping beaver can't be a bad thing can it

Bad Auzzie! Bad! *smack* BAD! *smack*

Just because there is no archealogical evidence of David and Solomon does not mean they didn't exist. These sites today are "holy", nobody wants to risk destroying them to dig deeper. Cities are built on top of older cities, so it's not surprising that evidence is not found.
Joseph and Mary travelled to Bethlehem to be registered by the Romans. They did this because that was where Joseph was from. He being of the tribe of Judah and a descendent from the line of David. The Jews kept records of which tribe and which inheritance each person belonged to, in order to know who was of the priestly class. Josephus mentions that registration, he being a Jewish historian writing for the Emperor at or around that time. Is it so far fetched that Joseph and Mary did travel to Bethlehem because they were of David's line? Those records have since been lost (Probably in the fire and destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD)

There are historical records other than the bible (Egyptian to be specific) that mention Shishak's invasion of Jerusalem, which is also recorded in the Bible.

You're right, the Bible is not a historical text book, but when it deals with historical events, I tend to believe it. The bible mentions not only Nebucadnezzer, but also Cyrus, Derius, Tiberius, Shishak, and many other historical people.

Many did not believe that Pontius Pilate was a real person. There was no historical record of him until 1942 when a stone was found inscribed with "Pontius Pilate Govenor of Judea" So again, just because we have no physical evidence doesn't mean it didn't happen.

In reference to the 7 days of creation, we can look at it as 7 distinct time periods, not literal days. Each "day" or time period specific things happened.

quote Originally posted by ray b: I use facts like dates of first coins lydia 643-630 bce to say david coins are BS fakes as david was born in 1085 bce or more that 400 years befor first coin was made.TOO BAD REAL HISTORY DOES NOT JIBE WITH THE BIBLE and religious fakes is BIG BIZ IN THE HOLY LAND "there is enuff wood from the true cross for sale to build the ark of noah" old quote.

Here comes the double edged sword again - so if david didn't exist, how do we know when he was born? Like I said before, we've reached the point where there are no longer answers - only opinions, which we all naturally differ on.

quote Originally posted by Adrift: Here comes the double edged sword again - so if david didn't exist, how do we know when he was born? Like I said before, we've reached the point where there are no longer answers - only opinions, which we all naturally differ on.

date is from catholic encyclopedia on line,
from begats listed in bible does not mean he was real just the bible based date used for his birth.
TRUST BUT VERIFY, COUNT YOUR CHANGE, IF YOU GET A DAVID COIN IT IS A FAKE OR LATER ISSUE.

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Question wonder and be wierd