I know a few mentioned last week or so there were no women combat fighter pilots. I have a friend that is, and Dateline tonite at 9pm is interviewing some. Their dropping bombs in Afghanistan from F-14's and flying off Carriers. So heres a thumbs up for the ladies.

Thanks Roger. I am one of those you corrected about the female fighter/bomber pilots.

Yea and I started it all. I'll watch.

The Navy started bringing them into the nuclear power program back in '94, but only for aircraft carrier duty. I say let's get them on subs, too.
And I mean that with all the seriousness and professionalism I can muster.

Damn straight... women still aren't allowed on subs in Canada 'cos they might be a distracting influence

I'm sorry, but if you are in charge of running a nuclear sub(not CAs... we run peddle-power), packing enough firepower to flash-glaze an entire state and can't keep it in your pants... Is this the woman's problem? Or is it the horny and irresponsible crew members? I think that if a woman on board really would cause such a problem, then you have TOTALLY the wrong people at the triggers >:\

Mach10, I haven't been in the military for quite a # of years, but try to stay current. Boomers stay sumerged for weeks, even months at a time. Space; berthing qtrs, showers, &
heads (bathrooms, to you landlubbers) are limited. Not sure if subs still use 'hot bunking' or not. Every spare space is usually jammed with critical equipment. Medical/dental is adequate, but limited. Pregnancy on board surface vessels with coed crews is a common occurance as are problems with love related jealousies and arguments. I imagine the strain of the awesome responsibilties these crews deal with everyday is bad enough as it is without throwing another factor into the game. I was once stationed on a place (Gitmo) that had no civilians, off-base liberty, but did have female sailors. LOTS of problems. Fights, suicides, divorces. You're right, it is not usually the girl's fault, sailors will be sailors no matter where they are. Only in the
sub question, there are usually no ports of call to visit. Nothing against the ladies, it's just an inherently dangerous place down there already. As far as not having the right people "on the trigger", the USNSS is the best trained and picked on the planet.

[This message has been edited by maryjane (edited 11-03-2001).]

MJ: I see no reason why "sailors" can't be every bit as responsible and disciplined as any other portion of the population. I do not doubt the training and skills that these people have, but if they can't even co-exist with one or more females in close proximity for an extended period of time then I feel that perhaps they are training the wrong people.
Seriously, it's not THAT hard not getting romantically involved with a co-worker. You'd think that in a high-impact, high risk, high-responsibility job like that, sex would be farthest from their minds. If I'm at the helm of such a powerful and sofisticated machine, I would tolerate NO ESPECIALLY this kind of crap from my crew.

Having said that, I *do* think that it would be a bad idea to simply start tossing women onto subs with things in their current state. You are right. At this point in time, sailors are sailors, and to complicate matters at this time would be counter-productive. Changes need to be made so that the women can fight too, anywhere, any time.

Beats the hell out of me what changes would need to be made, but "sensitivity training ( ) is not the way to do it.

wow! A civilized discussion! Ain't seen one in WEEKS

Edit: Ubb corrections

[This message has been edited by Mach10 (edited 11-03-2001).]

To begin with, Submarine sailors already are far more disciplined and resposible than the majority of thier civialian counterparts in society as a whole. You can't even keep sex out of the office in a norrmal business, so the crews better have a MUCH higher stndard. Take the Ohio class vessels. This class itself carries about 50% of the U.S. nuclear arsenal capability. Can't get much more responsible than that! Officers and crew number about 170, I think.
Usual ratio on surface ships for coed crew is 10% women (approx). Try that , stuffed into an area as small as a sub for several months, average age for enlisted crew is in early 20's, What was on 'your' mind at that age? nature WILL take it's course.

quote Originally posted by maryjane: To begin with, Submarine sailors already are far more disciplined and resposible than the majority of thier civialian counterparts in society as a whole. You can't even keep sex out of the office in a norrmal business, so the crews better have a MUCH higher stndard. Take the Ohio class vessels. This class itself carries about 50% of the U.S. nuclear arsenal capability. Can't get much more responsible than that! Officers and crew number about 170, I think. Usual ratio on surface ships for coed crew is 10% women (approx). Try that , stuffed into an area as small as a sub for several months, average age for enlisted crew is in early 20's, What was on 'your' mind at that age? nature WILL take it's course.

Whatdya mean what "WAS" on my mind?!? I'm 21! I can say that sex isn't on my mind 24/7... more like 22/6

I got an idea... now that the military allows gay men into it, we now have a place for 'em... Co-ed subs (sorry, that's bad )

Joking aside, I still don't see why there *has* to be a problem. I can guarantee you that 95% of the crew members will be responsible (celibate ). It's the other 5% that we'd have to worry about, and i think there is plenty in place in the military codes to deal with it, if people would take it seriously.

Ya REALLY want someone with PMS on a nuclear launch trigger??? Actually, you and I are just guessing anyway. Let's hear from someone who has some expertise in this matter. (Nuclear subs, not the sex thing) There is at least one PFF member that has been on em. Can't remember who tho.

quote Originally posted by maryjane: Ya REALLY want someone with PMS on a nuclear launch trigger??? Actually, you and I are just guessing anyway. Let's hear from someone who has some expertise in this matter. (Nuclear subs, not the sex thing) There is at least one PFF member that has been on em. Can't remember who tho.

Meh... I'd rather a PMS hair trigger, than a sailor with blue-balls who just recieved a letter saying that his wife has just run off with his brother

Yes they still do hot bunking on subs . . .and the passage ways are too narrow for avoiding hanky panky. But, why not a whole sub of women? It would seem to me that some women possess the ideal temperament for sub duty.

quote Originally posted by SteveJ: Yes they still do hot bunking on subs . . .and the passage ways are too narrow for avoiding hanky panky. But, why not a whole sub of women? It would seem to me that some women possess the ideal temperament for sub duty.

That's a good point

We all know subs are long, hard and full of seamen. And then you want the ladies around knowing that? hehehehe

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Glad I started an interesting discussion for once. Only took 600 or so posts to do it.

Yes, maryjane, I am one of them. An enlisted nuke, too (notice the faint blue glow). I've been pushing a sub through the water for the last 14 years since I finished the 2 year nuke pipeline, with the exception of a three year shore duty tour and a year of new construction on a boomer.

Despite all the glowing testimonials to our high quality, the occassional dirtbag does get into the system, but they usually get run out quickly by a whiz quiz (zero tolerance, baby), or something similarly offensive. And the surface Navy doesn't get our poor quality rejects anymore, only the ones with a genuine unsuitability problem. The Navy in general doesn't take any dirtbag off the street, thankfully. There are women in the military who are dedicated professionals, and should be given the same opportunity to learn things that men have. At least allowing them back into the nuclear world as operators (instead of as caretakers as they did 20 years ago) is a big step.

Sensitivity training is not what is required, but a clear understanding of the rules, and the consequences for breaking them. The Swedes have women on subs, and I think the Dutch also.

A female only crew sounds like a neat concept, but it takes years of experience to learn how to command, run a department, and lead a division. The officers make 3 distinct 2-3 year sea tours before they are selected to be a commanding officer. You can't jump from a hig level job on a surface ship directly to one on a sub. The Brits do it somewhat, but their sea/shore duty rotations are different, also. The early 20's average age is a cool recruiting tool, but the experienced people are still needed to lead them. It takes the average enlisted guy only a few weeks to qualify to steer, but he has years of experience backing him up continuously while he is driving.

PMS doesn't just affect women, either. And men have our own afflictions as well. You spend three months underwater and see how nice a person YOU are.