That is the last straw I will never buy a new GM vehicle not even if I win the lottery, unless the Camaro and Firebird makes a return. This proves GM is STUPID!!!!! All bean counters at car companies should be shot.

For those who want to see it thierselves: http://www.yahoo.com/s/2073

Yeah that's been discussed. And disgust.
//www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum6/HTML/000156.html

Well I can see GM continues its morbid march with head affixed firmly in anus.

Seriously is this a suprize. I thought this fact had been known for a year or more.

I knew about it and everybody knew about and yes it has been discussed but this is the first public release and final commitment to GM's ignorance!

The cars are dated. They have little going for them, its been their time for several years. Do you really think GM is going to drop out of the 'stang/f-body wars and let Ford and Chrysler duke it out? I bet they introduce replacements into the marketplace soon.

Woo Hoo!! ...

I hadnt heard about this.
Let me appoligize to anyone who is mourning the loss of these cars..
but my gear-head brother and I had it out the other day about how the Fiero was only in production for a few short years .. This proved that they were crap..Yet the camaro has been around for many years and will be around for ever because they are the best ..

Sometimes bad news comes at the best time

i hate GM for this, it's because there lack of quality marketing skill's ,i mean when's the last time you saw a firebird ad on tv? can't they just buy honda and all those japs right out??? arean't chrysler,gm,and ford the 3 giants of the world?? just another stupid mistake made by GM really really pisses me off!!!

I do belive GM thinks their vette is all the competition for a mustang they need.

they are cancelling the F body platform until its return in 2005 where it will regain it's foothold on the sprtscar market - I thought everybody knew this?

I heard that too cmwest, but we will see. I thought it was just hype about them cancelling till now? Who says they will ever make them again once thier gone.

Santa: buy them outright? Sweet, then we can ONLY buy poor quality automobiles...

[This message has been edited by JohnnyK (edited 09-27-2001).]

Personally, I think GM will surprise us in 2005. I think that they will come out with the F-body replacement without the usual hype. All of a sudden, it will just be there. And I'm putting my money on a retro look (w/current technology, of course).

BTW--The Vette isn't meant to compete with the Mustang. Two totally different cars. A $50,000 car isn't meant to compare with a $20,000 car.

And when it/they return, they are slated to be front wheel drive pieces of crap. Typical for GM to 'lowball' everyone this way. (It's financially cheaper for them to build FWD cars. Trust me - it's all about the Benjamins with GM ...)

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Boomtastic

Look for a two-door Camaro coupe based on a new Holden platform. RWD. V-8. Real trunk instead of a hatchback.
Aus posted pics, a while back. I don't have time to find them, now.
It's rumored to be based on the new Holden Monaro, if I remember correctly.
If you've ever seen a Holden sedan, you will understand that this is a good thing.
(Holden Commodore SS is about the size of a GP, I think. Has 4 doors. RWD. LS1 and a 6 speed. )

I've also heard rumors that Pontiac is considering producing a car in Bowling Green. Whatever that is supposed to mean.

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Raydar - aka Steve

Black 88 Formula.
Red 88 Duke coupe. "The Project"
88 Formula parts car. "The Donor"

poor quality automoblies? jap cars are poor quality my friends dad had a 1990 honda prelude his seat fell through the floor there crap it's time you realized that ,people who bash american cars are just bashing themselves america's made the *automobile* not the japs! if you supposrt what comes out of japan so much plain and simple MOVE THERE!

Its been rumored that in '05 the camarobird will return as a 2 seater based on the original.

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Tyler Morgan, 1986 GT

Power Steering, Holley Scoop
Aim=FieroDriver1986

I'm not surprised about the Firebird, but I have to say I am surprised that they are getting rid of the Camaro. I see those things everywhere. You'd think they make enough money on them to keep 'em going. I still want a new vette though

The F-Body , certinally a force to be reckoned with on the streets , but in the showrooms across North America it's the slowest moving car there is. Dealers can't give them away. I won't get into the GM vs. Ford debate , but the mustang outsells it by a wide margin (3 to 1). There are no plans to ever bring back the F-body (From the mouth of Mike Black GM marketing engineer) , not in 2005 , not ever. It's being shelfed permanently. It was initially thought they would bring out a platform that would span the midsize market and the Camaro would be part of that program. But the idea of a FWD Camaro made the brass at GM leary , thus the program was cancelled and that is why you won't see a FWD v8 impala either.

From a sales / financial point of view , the Camaro was a repeat loser. Unlike the Fiero which sold enough units to keep it's head above water (easily) , there is little room in the market for inexpensive niche cars. These are cars not everyone wants that fill a small portion of the market and are lower cost. IE the low cost/ profit does not offset the low production numbers.

There pumping out mustangs at full steam , they seem to appeal to all age groups and their sales are strong as ever. I have no real position on this (I don't wanna start a thread war). We have a 95 5.0ltr mustang and my mom loves it. I have driven a few F-Bodys and they have great power , but I can see how they appeal to a market that can't have them /afford them.

For GM , this death has been long talked about , and long overdue.

Want to hear some exciting news??? Go back to Off topic and read about GM's new 4.0ltr that is being built to replace the N*

IMO GM's F-Body's are not all that great besides the speed factor. I recently read a great article asking the question to why they are outsold badly by Rustangs. The writer seemed to prefer the styling of the stang, and teh refinement (both in the engine and chasis) to the f-bodies despite their obvious speed advantage.

I think its simply a "fun to drive" factor, whcih for me is speed, but more importantly handling and feel (hence my love for Fiero's: respectable speed with outstanding handling and a small size for tossability.) Last time I was shopping for a new car I test drove a 98 Camaro and 97 Ford Probe back to back. Camaro was the new redesign and the Probe was a leftover 97 (last year made). I liked the Camaro's looks... t-tops chrome wheels, etc but it felt like I was steering a ship! It felt like a long and heavy car that didn't like its direction changed all that much. On the other hand the Probe felt much more nimble and liked being thrown thru corners.

I ended up buying the Probe because of this. Despite a disadvantage in HP, the car was simply a lot more fun to drive! I really think this is why they are getting killed at the showroom. The Mustang is also a lighter and shorter car, and I would imagine is therefore more fun to drive.

I cannot wait to see what GM with Bob Lutz's influence pumps out in the next few years! He'll do a great job with the Camaro. I've also heard rumors of a Bowling Green-built sportscar for Pontiac! Soudns great, but what will Chevy think?

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John
AOLIM: Fformula88

1988 Fiero Formula
1985 Fiero SE 2M6

there are people who won't have anything other than that type of car (ponycar). a few may be able to move up to vettes and vipers and such, but gm is going to give ford about 3 years to draw in that market for themselves. if ford were smart they whould concentrate on the mustang to make it as appealing as possible for the buyer who's replacing their f-body during this time. and also crack the whip on quality to hold them for when/if the f-body returns.

remember ford almost did the same thing when it brought out the probe, and almost went down the wrong road with the svo also (which i guess wasn't a bad car, but it wasn't a v8 that so many need to have under the hood). i think this is something gm may regret later.

I'm going to get flamed for this ...

quote Originally posted by Santa Cruzer: jap cars are poor quality my friends dad had a 1990 honda prelude his seat fell through the floor there crap it's time you realized that

Every manufacturer has - and will - make a lemon. Unfortunately, the Americans make more of them ...

quote Originally posted by Philphine: if ford were smart they whould concentrate on the mustang to make it as appealing as possible for the buyer who's replacing their f-body during this time. and also crack the whip on quality to hold them for when/if the f-body returns.

Ford actually is going to come out with an all new Mustang for the 2004 model year... just ahead of the anticipated '05 Camaro. If they do it right it will make it awfully tough on Chevy to gain back a large portion of the market.

This new Mustang has the possibility of being a really big improvement over the current edition. Its going to be the first new platform for the car since it went to the Fox platform (read: Fairmont)in the 70's! I believe its going to have an all independant rear! Combined with vastly greater chasis stiffnes this car should be lightyears ahead of the current edition!

Santa Cruzer, you need to breathe into a paper bag for a while, or at least go back on your ritalin. Settle down.

I thought people from Germany actually made the first car, didn't they? Benz and those guys. And just because you like the products from a certain country doesn't mean you want to move there.

I am sorry your dad fell through the floorboard of his Prelude, but at least since it is a such low car, he probably didn't get hurt.

I don't mean to be overly politically correct, but there are a lot of people on the forum that are hurt by the "jap" reference, due to it's strong association with WWII. For their sakes, you might want to just consider saying Japanese cars.

Regarding Camaro's and Firebirds, I agree that they were big cows of a car. WHY do you need that large a car that 99% of the time is only sat in, in the front seats. It's such a lard-butted handful that, sure, the power is GREAT, but steering it isn't fun.

I do hope they bring one back that weighs about 400-500 pounds less.

Camaro's and Mustangs , both fast cars.

But not too hard to build a car that will run circles around one of them for 1/2 the price. Although I wouldn't mind trying a new Independent suspended mustang in an autocross or on a track

JM

I don't really mind that GM got rid of the Camaro and Firebird, except it makes GM's already boring line even worse. I don't really care for large muscle cars, prefering smaller two-seaters, but with the Corvette being the only sports car produced by GM now it's really kinda sad. Isn't Pontiac supposed to be a performace division? Why is it that Chevy has the sports car?

I don't have a clue what GM is doing, but I'm pretty sure that if they don't do something to change soon, I'm never going to buy another - and all four of my cars so far have been GM.

Really, why does GM need Chevrolet, GMC, Pontiac, Oldsmobile (did I rightly hear that they've killed it?), Buick and Cadillac? There's a hell of a lot of overlap that happens in the product lines. Even the Camaro vs. Firebird thing is a good example, are they not basically the same car except for styling differences?

I think GM needs to decide what divisions they really need and then start focusing on making these division work well. I don't see any need to Olds or Buick - don't get me wrong, they have some great cars, but these could just as easily be brought out my Chevy, Pontiac or Caddy.

Basically if I'm looking for a car, I think I should be able to identify with a division. For example if I want a luxury performance car, what car do I consider when I look at GM: Chevy's Monte Carlo, Pontiac's Grand Prix, Buick's Regal, Olds'.. okay I have no idea what I would look for from them... or the Caddy STS. That's all within the same sort of market from the same company. If you look at some of the imports though, I know that if I want a luxury car, it's probably an Acura(vs. Honda) or a Lexus(vs Toyota), etc.

GM stated that the reason for ditching these models was that they weren't selling enough, For example last year: Camaro - 42,131, Firebird - 31,000. Maybe it's because they've split their market too much with the competition that's currently available. Having 5 or 6 division was fine back in the 50's and 60's, even into the 70's before the imports became big over here. Now GM isn't just competing with the imports, Ford( and affiliates) and Chrysler(Ditto), but it's also competing with itself to a large degree. Selling 73,000 Camaros wouldn't have looked as bad on paper.

GM has it in themselves to produce some good cars, but they don't see to be able to market themselves for shite. I find all their offerings boring and uninspired. Unless you're looking for muscle, GM really isn't the company to buy from right now. If I was looking for a reliable car to get me around, or a sports car, I'd go import. I might consider a Caddy for luxury car, but even the asian import companies are offering some good luxury cars now. Seems to me it's time for GM to wake up and smell the Sake.

1st the fiero and now this!
GM really wants to lose out to other car companies don't they

Now if theres a Knight Rider movie what kinda car is K.I.T.T gonna be???
A civic

it was oldsmobile who was first,they celebrated there 100 yr mark, mercedes came latter.

Proof GM is stupid

- Fiero
- GTO
- Banshee
- 2.9 Turbo Trans AM
- Firebird
- Camaro
- Buick Grand National

All great cars that ax, because we the consumer don't want them! I am really starting to hate GM.

what was the turbo 2.9 transam supposed to be?

and wasen't the banshee just another firebird ahead of it's time?

Turbo Trans Am - had a 2.9 L turbocharged engine that really moved. I think it was a 1988 or 89 model. There were some produced and then mysteriously droped.

The Banshee was a two seater car that was in concept phase before the firebird was ever dreamed of.

[This message has been edited by dennis_6 (edited 09-29-2001).]

The turbo trans am was a 3.8 similar to the grand national.

IDEA!!!! Let's all e-mail Bob Lutz about possibly bringing back the Fiero! No Firebird/Trans Am = no performance car it the Pontiac (GM's performance car?) line up. Let GMC trucks handle the SUV thing (it should be their bag anyway). Let's get this campaign rolling!!!!

quote Originally posted by TI_3VOM: IDEA!!!! Let's all e-mail Bob Lutz about possibly bringing back the Fiero!

I'd love to. From what I've heard about the man, I suspect it might even do some good.
I suspect that his e-mail addy is as closely guarded as Fort Knox, though.

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Raydar - aka Steve

Black 88 Formula.
Red 88 Duke coupe. "The Project"
88 Formula parts car. "The Donor"

I know I am going to get flamed for this but I can't idly sit around and see how many of you that know so little about the demise of the f-body platform can give accurate, informative information.

1st off to the person that stated, "Mustangs outsell camaro/firebirds 3 to 1." That is the only statement that I read that was remotely correct for 2001 production.

In 2000 Mustangs outsold f-bodies by almost 5 to 1 (218,525 Mustangs vs. 45,417 f-bodies). F-bodies closing ground but too little too late. Look at economy and fuel prices affecting the sales of all performance cars.

What this margin doesn't tell you is that the majority of Mustangs sold in the US are base 6 cylinder models. A swaggering 70%. Approximately 30% of the Mustangs produced were GT's. Of this 30% the Rousch and Saleen conversions account for 5% of total production. And who wants to spend $42,000 on a Saleen Mustang just so you can keep up with a Firehawk Trans Am or SS Camaro?

Mustangs have marketing campaigns that target the female driver. More women are buying Mustangs than f-bodies. GM has never had a great or even good marketing campaign for the Firebird or Camaro. How many Mustang commercials or ads have you seen in the last couple of years compared to f-bodies? Think about it, Ford has a great marketing campaign compared to GM.

The other rumors that everyone talks about, "front-wheel drive platform , Holden platform, retro platform" Are all hype.

The word from GM reps that frequently visit boards like ls1.com, slponline.com, firehawk.org and the likes have made it clear that if, and that's a big if, the f-bodie returns it will be based on a platform that can be shared by another vehicle to save money. Part of the rumors about bowling-green is that it has been said that the f-body would share the same platform as the Corvette. Now if you believe that GM will allow this to happen then I would highly recommend you seek some professional help.

Here are the most common reasons that are shared on the demise of the f-body.

1. Sales have diminished so that the line can no longer be cost effective.
2. Current configuration of f-body would be too cost prohibitive to impliment 2003 federally mandated side impact laws. Car would have to be redesigned.
3. F-bodies were keeping up with Corvettes for less money, Firehawks and SS's.

I only speak so strongly on this topic since I am an f-body owner and it pains me to see how many people use bits and pieces of info that they read and don't follow the whole story line.

The end of the f-body platform has been talked about since 1999. 1993 was boasted by many car magazines and reviews to be the best bang-for-the-buck design. Pontiac put forth a challenge to all the performance car companies to build a car for under $30,000 and have the performance and quality of the Trans Am. No one accepted. And Pontiac came out with the rebirth of the muscle car.

If anyone thinks that there isn't a niche market for a car in GM's platform take a look at the Corvette. They have averaged 23,000 cars per year over the last 15 years. Even hitting a low point of only 9,752 units. The introduction of the C5 help to boost sales but not by much.

F-bodies created a niche for the performance car enthusiast that couldn't afford the high performance cost of Corvettes, Porsches, Vipers, etc. With some minor after market add-ons you had a car that would run with and beat most Corvettes and Porsches.

Mustang until lately have offered nothing but an underated excuse for v8 power and an eye soar for exterior and interior design. Ford has lied on horsepower ratings to state that they can compete with the f-bodies. Just look at the advertised hp rating of the Cobras over the past years and then read the letter of apology from Ford for over-rating the hp.

Ok, I have gone on too many tangents so I will jump off of my soap box.

I currently own an f-body no need to say which one but I will be the first to tell you, as far as styling, power, performance and comfort goes I would never trade this car for a Mustang or Corvette.

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AIM - SWags2933

84 Fiero SE (being modified)
88 Formula

Lepper - I seen an ad in Autotrader with a guy with a turbo Trans Am claiming to have a 2.9 in it. I don't know if this was true but that is why I posted the info.

IwannaIRM- Amen

I also agree-its time to e-mail Bob Lutz and also Pontiac. I find it hard to believe that "the performance division" will not have a v8 sports car of any type for sale in 2003 model year-something has to be in the works. Recently read an article that GM plans 75 new models in US in next 2-3 years.
I would not count out a mid-engine car from being one of these-especially in light of the new cadillac cien concept. if they are considering a $100,000+ mid-engine car, a 25-30K model would be an easier business case to justify.
What ticks me off is that gm lets the fiero sit dormant while competitors offer their own mid-engine cars, fully well knowing that fiero(with inline 6 or v8 engine) could easily be the market leader over boxster and mr2.

Ok who's got Bob Lutz's email addy? I feel the need for a covert op. Anyone know what happened to Shelby? He had a good formula small car big engine. Fiero would stand a good chance with him too if he were to be invited to GM by Bob Lutz!

I FULLY agree with you gtjeff!

I think I found how we can get in contact with Bob Lutz!!!!

I read in an article that Bob Lutz was going to remain chairman of Exide Technologies Inc.
Which means that GM can not stop you from getting to him through exide. I don't know what chances an email address could be obtained from exide, but it has to have better chances than an email with fiero mentioned directed through GM.

Link to the article: http://www.thestandard.com/wire/0,2231,19090,00.html

Exide's website: http://www.exide.com

Just an ideal...
And yes I have emailed them myself.

[This message has been edited by dennis_6 (edited 09-29-2001).]