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Open letter to all PFF users. by theogre
Started on: 09-22-2001 12:27 AM
Replies: 19
Last post by: Mach10 on 09-24-2001 04:14 AM
theogre
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Report this Post09-22-2001 12:27 AM Click Here to See the Profile for theogreClick Here to visit theogre's HomePageSend a Private Message to theogreDirect Link to This Post
Like many of you tonight, I watched 2 hours of heartfelt music and messages carried on over 3-dozen TV networks and thousands of radio stations.

Again I say to you, the acts of the week past are not acts of any sane faith. The terrorists claim they do this in the name of Allah and Mohammed. I believe Mohammed would weep in shame if he could see the acts done by this radical minority.

Iíve watched one story after another of Arab people being harassed by commercial airlines, other companies, and individuals. This Must Stop Immediately! No person who is truly American can be so blind as to blame these atrocities on an entire religious faith, race, or anything else.

Iíve heard for a week straight, ďLetís nukeím Ďtill they glow,Ē ďGasím till they ooz,Ē even ďLetís germ Ďem out.Ē While I more than understand the rage of many people, such comments are anything but amusing, not remotely funny at all. No sane person would even begin the activities required to do these things. As hard as it was not to puke when I heard of the attack, itís been just as hard not to puke when people say things along the these lines. As I said in my previous thread, being pissed off is a normal part of dealing with this. Being stupid and arrogant is not. This kind of behavior is flat out insulting to the intelligence of our society and our founding fathers.

Many of you have commented about how much I know about cars, and thanked me for helping you. In reality cars donít mean sh_t in the grand scheme of things. The future of our planet is now at stake.

Please take some time, sit down and just breathe. Donít think. Just Breathe. Donít read/watch/listen to any news. Just Breathe. Ignore all the political talk. Just Breathe. Do you hear that voice? The one thatís always been there... The one thatís telling you the truth, even when every thing else in your life was a lie... Itís Scared. Itís Angry. Itís Confused. Itís Sad. Even still it tries to understand. The real answers are out there for those truly willing to not only ask the question, but also listen to the answer.

I urge you all to find those answers. Dig hard thru all the political bull sh_t. Donít surrender civil liberty in the name of safety. No free world can ever be 100% safe. No matter how much some of you may think so, None of you really want to live in that kind of world.

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11-Sept-01, The day the world as we knew it ended.

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Report this Post09-22-2001 01:20 AM Click Here to See the Profile for SootahClick Here to visit Sootah's HomePageClick Here to Email SootahSend a Private Message to SootahDirect Link to This Post
Well Said.

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FieroHeather
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Report this Post09-22-2001 01:26 AM Click Here to See the Profile for FieroHeatherClick Here to Email FieroHeatherSend a Private Message to FieroHeatherDirect Link to This Post
thankyou.
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MinnGreenGT
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Report this Post09-22-2001 01:31 AM Click Here to See the Profile for MinnGreenGTClick Here to visit MinnGreenGT's HomePageClick Here to Email MinnGreenGTSend a Private Message to MinnGreenGTDirect Link to This Post
Very well stated... a thanks from me as well.
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My7Fieros
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Report this Post09-22-2001 01:35 AM Click Here to See the Profile for My7FierosSend a Private Message to My7FierosDirect Link to This Post
I think your intentions are well meant, but "dont surrender civil liberties in the name of safety" doesnt quite sit well with me if Im reading that statement correctly.
Sorry, but my heart doesnt bleed for anybody in that part of the world, or anywhere for that matter, that has the slightest bit of sympathy for these people. And I dont mind giving up some of my "civil liberties" for the sake of safety.

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fogglethorpe
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Report this Post09-22-2001 07:31 AM Click Here to See the Profile for fogglethorpeSend a Private Message to fogglethorpeDirect Link to This Post
Posted by theogre:
"I urge you all to find those answers. Dig hard thru all the political bull sh_t. Donít surrender civil liberty in the name of safety. No free world can ever be 100% safe. No matter how much some of you may think so, None of you really want to live in that kind of world."

He's right...it is never necessary to forfeit liberty for safety's sake. In fact, we are LESS safe in such an instance, because the threat of totalitarianism looms over us more as our freedoms slowly erode.


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fierobaby
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Report this Post09-22-2001 08:57 AM Click Here to See the Profile for fierobabySend a Private Message to fierobabyDirect Link to This Post
well said... I watched the telethon it was very moving. I really liked Mariah Careys Performance... it was very touching and well said! :-) Theorge
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Report this Post09-22-2001 09:38 AM Click Here to See the Profile for SageClick Here to Email SageSend a Private Message to SageDirect Link to This Post
Dave;

Very well said, and I for one am with you.

No one in the history of the world has as of yet, found any way to unite all people in all parts of the globe for anything. We all suffer from what I call "me-itis". It affects each and every one of us at different levels, and manifests itself in various ways in unlimited methods. It makes us incapable of seeing any perspective but our own. It causes us to harber ill feelings toward anyone that is different than we are. It makes us love a certain way, and hate a certain way. It blinds us to the reality of natures way of creating balance. It is pretty much what, in my opinion, keeps the world in general, as screwed up as it is. Its roots are in ego, and like noses and a$$holes, we all have one. We all have our own "view" of what reality is. Unfortunately, more often than not, it is not even close to being accurate.

"Seek first to remove the beam from your own eye, then you can see clearly to help remove the beam from your brother's eye" Sadly, most of us have become so accustomed to the beam in our own eye, we don't even realize it's there.

Sorry about the rambling, but I just wanted to let you know that I thought you said very well some things that desparately need said. Now the challenge is to get as many people as possible to understand it, and behave accordingly.

Pax

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gkozlov
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Report this Post09-22-2001 10:06 AM Click Here to See the Profile for gkozlovClick Here to visit gkozlov's HomePageClick Here to Email gkozlovSend a Private Message to gkozlovDirect Link to This Post
It is very difficult to fight terrorism. Many terrorist take there own lives in their actions, so punishing them is impossible. Attacking their family and friends by going to war with their people is in my opinion wrong.

I was born in the former Soviet Union. My Parents nor I should not be punished for anything that another Soviet has done. But, Iím as American as any of you reading my reply to this post. People of Middle East should also not be punished for the actions of the few. I agree with what theogre said. We should not take out our anger or frustrations on any innocent people who looks like.... We shouldnít punish people based on their race.

I'm an Infantryman in the United States Army. It has been a long time since the US has had to actually fight for our rights and freedoms. This was not an attack on someone else; it was an attack on us. It was not an attack on our military or government. It was an attack on our civilian population.

I know in my heart why I joined the infantry. It was not to kill, hurt, or injure. Iím here to fight and protect our constitution. I gave up many of my constitutional right by joining the Army so my wife and my children wouldnít have to.

These people that attacked our country live with terrorism as part of there daily lives. They are prepared to live and deal with terrorism on a daily basis. I refuse to allow my children to grow up in fear of terrorism. So where do I stand on this situation? We should punish those involved. Anyone involved or anyone in support of terrorism should be hunted down and punished.

As I stated before we shouldnít punish people based on their race. Neither should we just sit back and do nothing.

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Report this Post09-22-2001 11:41 AM Click Here to See the Profile for deceler8Click Here to Email deceler8Send a Private Message to deceler8Direct Link to This Post
Hearing Billy Joel do "New York State of Mind" made me take his old albums out and listen to them again.

There were many absolutely riveting performances last night...the remake of "Wish you were here" was stunning...I could listen to that over and over.

"God Bless America" is a song that we've all probably taken for granted...it will never be the same again after Celine Dion's performance last night. Absolutely breathtaking. Brought tears to my eyes.

The greatest gift we could give the Afghan people would be freedom and democracy. The Afghans face their biggest test in perhaps all their history. The unfortunate part is the destruction and pain we must inflict on them before they make this decision.

The old slogan "Because freedom isn't free" also takes on a new meaning. While we are a merciful people, we must necessarily show the world there is a cost to perpetrating the kinds of acts we all witnessed on September 11.

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Black88GT
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Report this Post09-22-2001 03:00 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Black88GTSend a Private Message to Black88GTDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by theogre:
Iíve watched one story after another of Arab people being harassed by commercial airlines, other companies, and individuals. This Must Stop Immediately!


I'm sorry but, if I was on a plane with arabs, I would feel very worried if not hostile about taking off and getting in the air with them. Its easy to sit here and say "don't do this to arabs" and "don't do that to arabs" but when it comes down to your life or someone you love, I'd like to see the reaction of anyone saying these type of things.

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Report this Post09-22-2001 06:10 PM Click Here to See the Profile for RaydarClick Here to Email RaydarSend a Private Message to RaydarDirect Link to This Post
Ogre, Well said.

I have (like everyone else) been following this situation since it happened. I have heard the entire spectrum of responses. From "do nothing" to "nuke 'em".
I haven't commented much or expressed an opinion because the truth is, I just don't know what the proper course of action is.
And the truly frightenig reality of the situation is that nobody else does, either.
I feel sorry for the decent people of this country who happen to be of Eastern origin. They don't deserve to have to deal with the inorance of a few narrow minds.
I *do* feel that anybody that is here illegally (not just Arabic people) should be deported. Immediately. No questions asked. Just "out".

What has impressed me most though, over the past days, is the outpouring of kindness and generosity that people of other nations have shown to us.
Of course I am unspeakably sad for the thousands who lost their lives, and their families, but what has really brought tears to my eyes is the compassion, prayers, and "best wishes" that others have shown us.

I wish to express my heartfelt thanks. Makes us, here, feel "not so all alone".

Steve

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Report this Post09-22-2001 07:46 PM Click Here to See the Profile for theogreClick Here to visit theogre's HomePageSend a Private Message to theogreDirect Link to This Post
I work for a bank that employs many people from the middle east and India actually....
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Report this Post09-23-2001 01:32 AM   Send a Private Message to theogreDirect Link to This Post
I read this earlier but didn't feel my thoughts were complete enough to reply. so anyways, Saying that "cars dont matter, they arn't important" is like saying Baseball(example) isn't important. How many believe baseball isn't important? I know many baseball players have things to fall back onto if they dont have baseball, but people dedicate their lives to it. Therefore, it IS important to them. Now, cars may not be everything in life. But without em, alot of ppl wouldn't be doing what they are doing.

In the event you do not understand this 'point of view' plz AIM me at Fiero88cpe .. to discuss it further

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Adrift
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Report this Post09-23-2001 04:19 AM Click Here to See the Profile for AdriftClick Here to visit Adrift's HomePageSend a Private Message to AdriftDirect Link to This Post
I didn't hear anyone yell "Lets kill all wasps!" when Timothy McVeigh did his dirty work - the reason people are blaming all arabs are because they are a minority in North America, and humans tend to use minoritys as scapegoats to make them feel better about themselves (This is across the board, all over the world)
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Black88GT
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Report this Post09-23-2001 04:28 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Black88GTSend a Private Message to Black88GTDirect Link to This Post
Timothy McVeigh was one person, acting with 1 maybe 2 others. The unibomber is probably the only other one I can think of, but that guy lived in a shed out in the woods.

These arabs are better organized and have more people. They have hijacked numerous planes all over the world. They bombed the WTC before. They held our hostages for over a year in 1980. Now this. They flew 2 planes into the WTC and 1 into the Pentagon. This was not some mail bomb from a lunatic or a car bomb from a disgruntled ex-soldier.

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Report this Post09-23-2001 10:01 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Mach10Click Here to Email Mach10Send a Private Message to Mach10Direct Link to This Post
Black88GT: I go to school with several, I am in the same Hapkido class with one of them. I trust him enough to let him put me in a potentially fatal choke hold, and he returns the favor. I feel FINE about flying with arabic people...

What you are doing is discriminating against a race of people because of the actions of a few. Yes, there have been lots of terrorist attacks. True, a good portion have been done by groups of at least arabic decent. In perspective, the columbian drug-states have been far worse (at least until now) so we're talking on the order of thousands, maybe 10s of thousands of people. Possibly even hundreds of thousands Yes? All right, compare that to the total arabic populations, on the order of HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS. Suddenly, those 100,000 people aren't much of a representative...
Let's take the IRA. They have about 1000 active members; at least 400 fully active hardcore members, and at least that number in semi-active members. that means that given the population of Ireland, which in 1992 was 3,548,000, that give the chance that every red-headed person you meet has a 0.0282% chance of being an IRA terrorist.

Now, let's look at the middle east. Here's a population breakdown of the relevant areas:

Egypt 67,273,906
Turkey 65,599,206
Iran 65,179,752
Algeria 31,133,486
Morocco 29,661,636
Afghanistan 25,824,882
Iraq 22,427,150
Saudi Arabia 21,504,613
Syria 17,213,871
Yemen 16,942,230
Tunisia 9,513,603
Israel 5,749,760
Libya 4,992,838
Jordan 4,561,147
Lebanon 3,562,699
Oman 2,446,645
United Arab Emirates 2,344,402
Kuwait 1,991,115
Qatar 723,542
Bahrain 629,090

Now, that boils down to a total population of 336,547,997 people. Let's say there are 100,000 active terrorists. That's a huge number, and probably far too big for the 20 or 30 known active groups. That means that the total number of terrorists (based on this generous number) would be on the order of 0.0297% of the population of the middle east. Sitting between an Afghanistani and a Belfast man, I'd be more worried about the Irish!

Of course, Statistics will tell you anything you want My point is, don't discriminate against an entire race because of the actions of a (relatively) minute few. Given the statistical numbers, almost as much of the population of Ireland are terrorists as the Middle east. But we don't go around labeling the irish as terrorists. That's the only point I want to make. My numbers may or may not be correct (it *is* the net) but the point rests. Not all arabs are terrorists. In fact, a VERY small number are, so don't treat them all as such.

edit:
btw, here's a good read. A report on terrorist activities in various M.E., countries: http://www.hatemonitor.org/Terrorism_rpt/pattern_global_terrorism_98/mideast.htm

[This message has been edited by Mach10 (edited 09-23-2001).]

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MsBeth
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Report this Post09-24-2001 12:12 AM Click Here to See the Profile for MsBethClick Here to visit MsBeth's HomePageClick Here to Email MsBethSend a Private Message to MsBethDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Adrift:
I didn't hear anyone yell "Lets kill all wasps!" when Timothy McVeigh did his dirty work - the reason people are blaming all arabs are because they are a minority in North America, and humans tend to use minoritys as scapegoats to make them feel better about themselves (This is across the board, all over the world)


Thank you for pointing this out ... I understand how not knowing who is involved makes it difficult to say who isn't involved but a blanket accusation that all Arabs or Muslims are bad is just like saying all catholics are bad or all redheads are bad or all football players are bad - it is not logical. I for one hope that we do not respond by acting like those that have instigated this horrific tragedy... hating an entire race just because .... it isn't right for them and it isn't any more right for us.

Sadly this will require that we do have to live in a different world than we are use to ... a world that other countries live in where terrorism is an intricate part of everyday life.

That being said ... I hope we find the responsible parties and make them pay for a very long time in ways that aren't humane or just or quick. For each family, friend, boss, parent, child ...they all must be avenged - there is not other way to insure this NEVER happens again. And hopefully one day we can return to a world that more resembles the one we grew up in ... one free of the horrors inflicted by terrorists.


MsBeth

[This message has been edited by MsBeth (edited 09-24-2001).]

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Black88GT
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Report this Post09-24-2001 12:16 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Black88GTSend a Private Message to Black88GTDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Mach10:
Black88GT: I feel FINE about flying with arabic people...

What you are doing is discriminating against a race of people because of the actions of a few. Yes, there have been lots of terrorist attacks. True, a good portion have been done by groups of at least arabic decent. In perspective, the columbian drug-states have been far worse (at least until now) so we're talking on the order of thousands, maybe 10s of thousands of people. Possibly even hundreds of thousands Yes? All right, compare that to the total arabic populations, on the order of HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS. Suddenly, those 100,000 people aren't much of a representative...
Let's take the IRA. They have about 1000 active members; at least 400 fully active hardcore members, and at least that number in semi-active members. that means that given the population of Ireland, which in 1992 was 3,548,000, that give the chance that every red-headed person you meet has a 0.0282% chance of being an IRA terrorist.


OK first off, what Columbian drug lord has bombed an embassy, or hijacked a plane, or flew that plane into a building? Give up? NONE. What IRA member has bombed an american embassy? Hijacked a plane? Give up? NONE.

What I am doing is making a generalization based on facts. What other method should I use? Should I flip a coin to see if someone might be a terrorist? How about put everyones name in a bucket and pick one? Making a generalization based on facts or previous accounts is not racism/discrimination. You think when I drive down Baltimore city I don't get a little nervous when I see a group of black male teens on the corner and I am stopped at a red light? I know that they are most likely to commit a crime based on the location and their age/sex/race. Sorry but thats the facts, I can't change them to suit your political correctness B.S.

[This message has been edited by Black88GT (edited 09-24-2001).]

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Report this Post09-24-2001 04:14 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Mach10Click Here to Email Mach10Send a Private Message to Mach10Direct Link to This Post
Black88GT: So what you are saying is that if it isn't against an American establishment, person, or embassy, it isn't terrorism?

I have news for you: Have you ever heard of the mass-graves in Central and South America? Entire VILLAGES disappear regularly when the crops don't meet expectations. No-one dies, they just vanish. Kids are shot openly at night in the larger cities. You've suffered one incident like this, and it entitles you label every arab a terrorist? Hundreds of thousands of people gone. Anthroplogists are STILL digging up mass graves, containing THOUSANDS of people every year. All shot execution style. Everyone grows Cocaine beside their food crops, because if they don't they disappear too. No-one offers any resistance, because they live in TOTAL terror. Terrorism has won in the Latin-american countries to the south of you. Now, I'm of hispanic decent. Am *I* a terrorist? Hardly. But why not make some generalizations about ME also? You know, as a half-spaniard, I also have Moorish blood in me. So maybe I'm part terrorist, too?

I'm opposed to "PC" as well. But then, I don't walk around calling Americans "Yanks" or the guy in the Wheelchair a "gimp." I do this out of common courtesy to others. By the same token, I don't automatically assume that every native I meet is a drunk, and that every black person is a criminal. Sure, a lot of native people around my area are chronic alchoholics. Sure, the black population in the larger cities may have a higher crime rate. But in both cases, there are MANY more that aren't. Just because they are more VISIBLE, doesn't mean that they accurately represent the population. Consider that, before passing judgement on a person you have never met.
I'll admit that the group of people on the street corner make me nervous. Hello! Group of people in the downtown Core area?!? What difference does it make what skin color they are?

I'll give you an example, from a local sample, no guesswork involved. This is all from PERSONAL experience. No web-pages, no newspaper articles. Just what I've done, and seen, and listened to.

I live in Winnipeg, MB. As well as being one of the best places to eat (largest person:restaurant ratio in N.America), it is also geographically close to many Native Canadian Reserves. As such, we have a large population of Native peoples. Mostly Cree, if you are interested. Now, driving down Main street at any time of day (and Ferrari_CDN and SlothGT will attest to this) and you will see a disproportionate number of native canadians staggering around, drinking out of paper bags, starting fights, and selling drugs. Pretty typical downtown slum behavior (perhaps the only cross-cultural constant?). Now, as everyone in Canada knows, the occurence of alchoholism in native populations is triple that of the normal, middle-class honky (such as m'self.). This is plainly evident. Now, I had the opportunity to visit some friends up in the reserves, and visited several. You know what? Alcholism was no more a problem than any other racial population. Without going into the background reasoning FOR the higher occurence rate, it is clear that the problem lies mostly with the urban-dwelling native populations. Or is it? You see all these people staggering around pissed-drunk on the street in broad daylight. You see it Day after day... What about the natives that DON'T live in that area? What about the ones on the reserves? Actually, lining up 10 of them, and asking to guess which one is an alchoholic, you'd probably get it right within 3 or 4 tries. But that leaves a hell of a lot of "sober" natives. So, going by numbers, alchoholism is a problem, but it isn't a defining characteristic. A Sober native isn't a statistical abberation. But who do you think gets more attention? The family quietly living their lives, or the half-dozen that start a fight that ends up on the hood of your car, while commuting to work? What if you see that family ONCE, but that same group of people everyday? What would your impression of them as a people be? You'll NEVER see any of the reserve natives. They rarely if EVER come to the cities. For me, I met 6 people that hadn't even seen a "white man" in their lives. None of them were drunk... I've seen both sides of it, and can say safely that you can't equate "drunk" with "native"
However, not all people have seen what I have. Most people only see the bad side. Based on that, it isn't exactly a fallacy to say that most natives are drunk. After all, 99% of the natives that they'd see on a daily basis would be drunk. You won't see the otherside unless you look.

In this particular example, you see only rabid freaks ramming planes into buildings, you see only the Taliban thrashing women for not covering, you see only the people cheering the successful attack on the states. Given only this information, it's REASONABLE to assume that everyone in that part of the world is a fanatical monster...

But what you have to remember is that there is a LOT more behind the curtains. What about Ahkbar the Goat-herder, living in the middle of a desert, 5 days in any direction from any urban center. He can't read, can't write, doesn't even have electricity. He has Goats, a wife, and some kids. He has HEARD of the Taliban, and what they preach, but it isn't the same as what he was taught by his father. But it doesn't affect him, since the Taliban doesn't come into the desert to make trouble with him. So he lives his life quietly, and peacefully. Says his prayers, loves his family. You know what? There are HUNDREDS of MILLIONS of people JUST like him. Some of them moved out of the cities to escape the taliban and their violent regime. They came to the states, and brought their culture and way of life with them. No-one gave them a second look, because America is the land of opportunity. Now, some crazy assholes kill a lot of people, and they happen to be of the same people that he fled. So now he has to put out flames in his church, take his beaten-up children to the doctor, and replace the windows of his car. Does that sound fair to you? I'm not asking you to change your mind. I'd be the coolest person in the world if I could. All I'm asking is for you to THINK about what's going on. THINK of what's happening that you can't see, and the Media finds too boring to cover. Remember that you, like most others, will only ever see the worst of what a particular type of people have to offer. In my case, it's booze and drunken, paint-scuffing violence. In yours, it's crazy people running into banks loaded with explosives.

So just consider. Please?

[This message has been edited by Mach10 (edited 09-24-2001).]

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