Not to belittle the achievements of our intelligence and enforcement people, but I have always thought one reason we haven't seen more terrorism on U.S. soil is that when the bad guys get here and hang around long enough, then they see what an incredible place it is. They see that total freedom is NOT chaos, but can actually work! They see how good they have it here, and so they just drop their plans and defect from their former bosses. With our society sliding into the gutter over the years, they are no longer impressed. This kind of thing will increase.

quote Originally posted by Don_Chi_Chi: I've heard, there's alot of celebrating in other parts of the world.

I saw the video feeds of that. The sad part is seeing children celebrating with them. ...brainwashed

Where is everyone that was in chat?

quote Originally posted by fieroburton: this might sound messed up but for all that they did to us we should give them a gift... the gift of nuclear winter .

I could be mistaken, but I think the effects have to be planetwide for nuclear winter to occur.. but we could still turn them into glowing dust. heh

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steve@fieroproject.com
http://www.fieroproject.com

I guess I'm again going to post some unpopular opinion, but here goes:

First of all, painting all arabs as terrorist and blood-thirsty animals is not only racist but very much incorrect. I would encourage you to learn about the Quer'an (Their version of the bible) before labelling Islam as a blight on society. They share many if not most of the same values we do.

Eds, I'm personally disgusted by your attitude. I understand the anger - terrorism is horrible, it plays on the fears of society. It doesn't target indiscriminately, it purposefully targets the innocent because that is the most effective way to bring pressure on the government. I did many essays on terrorism in my university days, but had never imagined something like this happening in America. Like Mach10, though I can't condone your blow 'em to Hell attitude and let God sort 'em out attitude.

I know that the US government will find the people that did this. They will make damn sure they can't do it again. Bin-Laden, Saddam, Islamic Jihad and the rest of them are hardly indicative of Middle Eastern society. I have lived there. The majority of the people are very hospitable to strangers, very welcoming. Don't let the acts of a few monsters shape your views of an entire people. We all have our own skeletons: McVeigh, KKK, FLQ ( a terrorist group in Canada during the 70's) but it doesn't mean we're all murderers.

Don't get me wrong. I fully condone the use of force in retaliation for this act. If it's state sponsored terrorism, give them a **** kicking they won't soon forget. If it's a group get rid of them. Just don't think that regular tactics are going to work with terrorists. This is the sort of thing best handled by the CIA of old. A militia in Lebanon once took some western and soviet citizens hostage. The Soviets sent a KGB team in to negotiate for the return of their hostages. This consisted of removing the testicles of the offending "negotiator", placing them in his mouth and returning him in a body-bag to his militia. The soviet hostages were returned a few hours later. That's how you negotiate.

Tonker - say what you want, but I dont see RAG HEADS, did I say RAG HEADS, I meant RAG HEADS blowing sh1t up in Canada

I agreee! More shitkicking, and less racism. One person told me "War against terrorists was impossible. Kill one group and another springs up..." If this is the case, then I say that the US should start the worlds largest game of "Whack-A-Mole" until the threat is neutralized...

MJ: I am unfortunately a little older and a little wiser. In answer to your rhetorical question, YES. That is quite close enough, thank-you. In this situation, swift and hard retaliation is in just order. I don't know that offering more stiff resistance to china would have changed this, but I do see your point.

Strike back HARD for the people that you've lost to this sensless bout of self-righteous testosterone.

The Horror has only just started, the worst is yet to come. Many of you on this forum are going to find out shortly that you or someone you know has lost a family member or friend today. Between 10am and 12 this morning I had already talked to numerous co-workers, only to learn that 4 of them had either family or friends working in the World Trade Center Bldgs.

The weeks ahead are not going to be pleasant and the best that we can do is try to "support" each other on this forum.

Think twice before you "Flame" someone for their comments, there's a lot going through our heads at this time, which for some may come out in the form of anger and frustration, just to name a few elements.

My thoughts are with all of you.

Tom

And what would you say if they were an Isreali group unhappy with the lack of full support for Israel vs. the Palestinians? I'll bet you couldn't tell the difference between some of them and the "rag-heads". What if they were Iranians? They aren't "rag-heads" either. They're persians. What if your oh-so-concrete reports aren't quite as accurate as you think. Maybe they're US citizens like Tim McVeigh. Why don't wait and see who the hell you should be persecuting before passing judgement CM.

As for not having had aircraft falling on our heads here in Canada, would it have made you feel better if we did? Would that make you happy CM?

quote Originally posted by Mach10: [B]I agreee! More shitkicking, and less racism. One person told me "War against terrorists was impossible. Kill one group and another springs up..." If this is the case, then I say that the US should start the worlds largest game of "Whack-A-Mole" until the threat is neutralized... B]

hell yeah, we are the last SUPERPOWER NATION, we can crush anybody in the world, we have friends(England and France & others) we have the best air force, navy and ground force. we should just knock them sand n*ggers back to the stone age.

WTF. i don't know what i'm saying, i'm still trippin' on why someone would be dumb enough to attack us and in such a cowardly way.

I understand that there are many emotions in play here. It needs to be said that racism is not helpful in healing, though. You have a sizeable arab population in the US. I'll bet almost every one of them is as proud to be an American as you are, as disgusted and horrified as you are. A few of them may well have lost friends or family in this tragedy.

I'm not trying to take anything away from your pain. As much as we may hate to admit it, Canadians associate very closely with Americans. We share much of the same culture - most of our TV, movies, radio is american. Many of our traditions are American. We're much closer to the US culturally then we are to Britain. We share the same defence concerns - we're practically part of the same economy. In fact I'm probably geographicall closer to New York than most Americans. Don't think that this even hasn't touched us. Most of us will do anything we can to help.

Maybe there's a difference in the fact that we swear allegiance to a different flag, maybe there's not. If there is then it's probably because you feel there's been damage to American pride and/or honour. I can only assure you that we feel the pain of your losses. I know of at least one Canadian on one of the flights - I'm sure there will be more. I don't think this is a time to worry about national or ethnic differences. I know many of us have family in the States, some who are citizens.

What happens to the US affects us very deeply. It would probably be accurate to describe it as a brotherly relationship. The US is like the big brother, that sometimes irritates us but we feel a kinship and concern for nonetheless. We'll be here to help you in any way we can.

I could only get through the first two pages of this tread before I had to post to it.

My stomach has a knot in it soooooo deep that I feel my toes are tied up around my shoulders because of it.

I have been up the WTC twice in my journies to NYC, and as a retail worker...that would have really bit going to work that day in one of the many shops underneath the building. If I were working in that bookstore, I could possibly have died today.

As a Canadian, I am very furiated at the way the U.S. has been pounced upon, and my heart goes out to those families who have lost loved ones today. *sigh* Tis a sad sad day.

Tonker, you may be right, I've never been to the mideast. I've always felt the Palestinians should have a homland, but not neccesarily kick Israel out to get it. I believe all those who want freedom should have it and should recieve assistance from those of us who already have it. The problem is , we don't know yet who is responsible for this deed. It could still yet be the homegrown variety, but my gut feeling says no. We've coddled terrorists for years, starting way back to Iran taking the U.S. Embassy hostages. We took little or no action
then, in the Beirut Marine bombing, the bombings in Kenya and the USS Cole. The difference is that in those instances, thoses men & women were in the Foriegn service, or in the military. Military personell know the risk when they sign the paper. There's always a risk of going into harm's way. I never thought I would live to see the day that "Remember New York" might be a battle cry. These were civilians, not collatoral damage, but were the only targets.
When the civilian death reports start being reported from the reprisal attaks that are sure to come, I hope people remember the thousands of civilians killed today.
War a is nasty, bloody, messy, smelly, and rotten business. If you're lucky enough to live thru it, you spend the rest of your life trying to live WITH it. But sometimes you have no choice. This is one of those times, because we've candi-assed out for so long. Our cia and other intel agencies have had their hands tied for so long, they will have to be turned loose to do what they have to.I don't expect it to turn into WWIII, but will be bloodier than the Gulf war if we have to go into a place like Afganistan. They're expierenced, dedicated, well armed and on their own turf. A few cruise missles are'nt going to do it. It's going to be ugly. We're fixin to find out who our friends really are. Welcome to combat, boys and girls, 21st century style. I haven"t lost any friends or relatives in this that I know of, but I've lost some contrymen. Time to stop makin nice and start makin bullets & bombs again.

(Musical notes go here) Happy Anniversary to us (More musical notes....)

8 years. Woo hoo. Had to explain "terrorism" to a five year old....

and I suppose Tonker could have told the difference between a South Vietnamese and a Northern Vietnamese ( Vietnam War ), between the Protestants and the Catholics ( IRA - Ireland ),

Actually I wasnt there in NY, You werent there in NY - but they are still Rag Heads, they wear rags on thier heads - its like calling the White Socks White Socks- because they wear White socks, same with the Red Socks - Or even the Wigs in English Parliment - because they wear wigs - how is the phrase rag head derrogetory?

MJ: This time, I feel the US is FULLY justified to do whatever is necessary. If they don't this kind of crap will keep coming. There is a time for diplomacy, and a time for action. I still believe the China thing was a time for diplomacy, but I know for sure that this is the time for ACTION.

I'm not ready for war, but who is? Dig out your people, brush off the dust, then leap into the fray, and show these animals that you CANNOT do this sort of thing EVER again.
If it means full-scale theater of war, so be it. Canada will be behind the states on this one, I'm sure. I know I am.

Nobody noticed the date too, September 11th, 9-11. I can't say anymore then f-king WOW. Trade centers, GONE.
Chris

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Check out my site at: www.customdynamix.com
2 '87 GT Projects

OK, I've been wathing the news most of the day. I find if funny they don't show the videos of the people in the middle east celebrating and dancing here in the US. Iv'e been watching cnn/fox/abc/cbs all day nad didnt see ANY of it. I live near the border and I get a few canadian stations. I've seen it many times on the canadian stations. Its funny how censored the US news is.

quote Originally posted by FieroFanaticus2: I don't think the person responsible for this really cares what happens to him. He has succeeded in his goal. I don't think any of us can fully understand at this time how this is going to effect us. The SH1T has hit the fan.

just remember...when the sh1t hits the fan it blows back in your face!

reading the news on Yahoo - its funny to hear the reactions in China, they stepped up the security at out embassy in Beijing, however they feel it was out fault for the whole spy plane incident, and that America deserves this - also there was an unmanned spyplan shot down over Isreal early this morning before all this happened - FYI

Jim Sutter, the owner of IRM, owns the civilian contracting firm that does all the electrical maintenance at the Pentagon. His company is the only non-military person who has an office in the Pentagon building.

Let's keep them in our thoughts.

Archie

Here is what I would do.

OK, this is assuming we know that Bin Laden is in Afghanistan. First, I would deploy half the troops in the region to Pakistan and the other half to one of the former Soviet Central Asian nations bordering Afghanistan. Thats around 50,000 troops in each one.

Then, deploy 2 subs, 2 carriers, and 4 battleships to the Arabian sea between Oman and India. Maybe even more.

I would send Afghanistan a message saying we will be deploying special forces units into the capital using any/all means necessary to aprehend Bin Laden and any of his co-conspiritors. If anyone is to interfere in their mission, we have 100k troops and 8 naval ships on standby in the area.

I think it could work. They wouldn't be dumb enough to interfere, well atleast I would hope not. If the special forces fail, we could always just send it the troops. I am sure the rebels would help us.

quote Originally posted by c m west: Tonker - say what you want, but I dont see RAG HEADS, did I say RAG HEADS, I meant RAG HEADS blowing sh1t up in Canada

Thank you, that was my next point. The reason the RAG HEADS (hope I didn't offend any rag heads or their fans) are attacking the US is due to our support of Israel. We're interfering with their religion and they want to make us pay. Well, we paid now Bush must go scrape off some real estate. I actually never wrote anything to the effect of kill ‘em all and let God sort 'em out. That was Mach 10's paraphrasing me writing we need to go over, place 50,000 troops per adverse country, walk through and eliminate all adverse people, and then reestablish a new government while we never leave them unattended. We need to baby-sit that region forever. No one answered my question; is anyone gullible enough to think the royalty of those countries has no clue as to who doing what, when, and where? The rag-head royalty is hiding behind the veil of false ignorance and we need to baby-sit them just like we did Japan in 1945 for 50 years.

MJ,

I agree, time to "let loose the dogs of war". Let the CIA do what it's supposed to, give the military the money it requires to to its job properly. We have the same problems in Canada. Our defence budget is always the first thing cut. It's so bad that some analysts suggest that we can't afford tanks or fighter aircraft and that we should leave that sort of he up to the US. What a crock! Sometimes you have to defend freedom with a big stick. I realize that I sound like I'm contradicting myself from the Spy-plane thread, but to me this is an entirely different situation. Lives were lost and you need to make sure that these guys realize they aren't going to be able to do it again.

As for the scenes you see of arabs celebrating in the streets, it makes a nice news-worthy shot. Notice how they don't show you all the arabs in the middle east who aren't out celebrating? As always you have to take what you see in the media with a grain of salt. Some arabs harbour resentment for the US backing of the Israelis, I'm sure. Just as many others recognize the help that the US has provided them. I'm sure more still don't have any opinion on the matter and are just as happy living their lives that way. They probably believe what their political leaders tell them.

The media keeps saying that the world will change forever, this isnt the first time something has been destroyed, killed, etc. - is all this hype or what are they getting at?

quote Originally posted by EdsB52: Thank you, that was my next point. The reason the RAG HEADS (hope I didn't offend any rag heads or their fans) are attacking the US is due to our support of Israel. We're interfering with their religion and they want to make us pay. Well, we paid now Bush must go scrape off some real estate. I actually never wrote anything to the effect of kill ?em all and let God sort 'em out. That was Mach 10's paraphrasing me writing we need to go over, place 50,000 troops per adverse country, walk through and eliminate all adverse people, and then reestablish a new government while we never leave them unattended. We need to baby-sit that region forever. No one answered my question; is anyone gullible enough to think the royalty of those countries has no clue as to who doing what, when, and where? The rag-head royalty is hiding behind the veil of false ignorance and we need to baby-sit them just like we did Japan in 1945 for 50 years.

Rather than going into it at length, I'm just going to say here that I believe many of your points are ill-founded and inflammatory.

To use Japan as an example you would first need to go into a discussion of the causes of that conflict. I don't believe that this is the time or the place, but I will gladly take it to e-mail if you like.

Racial discrimination is never a valid platform. It makes you no better than Bin-Laden or the Nazis.

Occupation of the arabs would probably be counter-productive. Notice how well it has worked for Israel? I agree there are arab states that would benefit from a new government. Bush blew it in '91. But I don't know how well it would work. They're a very different culture. The arab countries are much less secular.

In some cases, "The rag-head royalty" as you so succinctly put it, may indeed have some idea of what's going on. In many cases they don't. They're no more likely to know what's going on than your intelligence community. In fact they're probably much less likely to know.

Anyways, rather than debate this at length here, I'll let you take it to e-mail if you like. If not we'll just let it rest for now, shall we?

Eds: Uh, the fanatic wing of Islam isn't just after the US because they are siding with Israel. Islamic leaders have percieved western society as a threat to their way of life for quite a while. Firstly, the idea of American "Freedom" conflicts quite heavily with what is percieved as right and proper. Women showing their hair!?! Men shaving their beards?!? Unheard of! Take a visit to Saudi Arabia. People are friendly enough, but the sense of propriety is somewhat offended.

Secondly, the US is quite vocal about preaching it's freedom and love of democracy. This raises dangerous opinions in the populace. Thoughts like "If I was American, I wouldn't have to dress how I like only indoors." For the resident Theocracy, independant thought is a Bad Thing.

Remember, though, that the majority of the islamic fanatics can't read. The Qua'ran teaches peace and tolerance. True, there are some rules about what is considered proper which may seem restrictive, but in general, Islam is a pretty nice concept.

Now, insert some frothing power-hungry madmen, who "read" the Qua'ran FOR these people. "Allah says you go to heaven if you blow up this plane" and crap like that. Suddenly, due to the already devout followers, Islam is dangerous. Not cool.

Most of the Arab states don't need "babysitting." The same way that not all germans were nazis. True, there are some rotten apples in the basket, but let's face it. Find me a society without one. The problem inherent with the societies in question is that they place religion above all else. This is great when the people doing the reading are preaching love and tolerance. Not so good when waging Ji'Had against everything western. 99.5% of the populations are just people trying to make money to feed their families. Most are happy the way things are, and don't pay attention to politics. They won't EVER thank you for "liberating" them.

However, the .5% are terrorists. Terrorism is EVIL. Terrorism MUST be stomped out. Unfortunate, but if innocent people must die, then so be it. The corruption does spread deep. There are people at the top that look the other way. Maybe they are forced into it, maybe they have financial interest. Maybe they just don't like Americans. The tricky bit will be sorting out which is which. I thouroghly applaud the USs stance that harboring these monsters is the same as co-conspirating.

I won't pretend that the Israel-Palestine thing doesn't have anything to do with it. However, the facts remain that the Islamic right-wing have more reasons (at least for themselves) for what they do.

quote Originally posted by EdsB52: Ya, that's true. Even the terrorist pilots had family and friends. Oh, you were referring to the lost Arab souls on the aircraft weren't you?

I was actually referring to the Arab-American citizens who enjoy the same protection under your Constitution and pay the same taxes that you do regardless of whether they were in the plane, in the WTC or among the emergeny response teams.

quote "If there is then it's probably because you feel there's been damage to American pride and/or honour." No, just feel the damage to 10-20,000 fellow countrymen and women, not mention billions of dollars in loss. If we did this to someone else we would be required to reimburse and compensate. It's not complicated, so please don't make it.

So basically you've just agreed with me, haven't you? I said there would be no difference in the way we feel at the tragedy unless "you feel there's been damage to American pride and/or honour." At least that was the context within my posting that you left out. This loss of human life is terrible regardless of your nationality. The loss of capital is also unfortunate, but can be replaced.

[This message has been edited by Tonker (edited 09-12-2001).]

quote Originally posted by c m west: and I suppose Tonker could have told the difference between a South Vietnamese and a Northern Vietnamese ( Vietnam War ), between the Protestants and the Catholics ( IRA - Ireland ), Actually I wasnt there in NY, You werent there in NY - but they are still Rag Heads, they wear rags on thier heads - its like calling the White Socks White Socks- because they wear White socks, same with the Red Socks - Or even the Wigs in English Parliment - because they wear wigs - how is the phrase rag head derrogetory?

So, does that mean a person with cloth wrapped around their head is wearing a terrorist uniform??? Or does that just mean that all terrorists have cloth wrapped around their head?

*shakes head* what a retarded statement...

Bryce
88 GT

Tonker, I don't think Ed was aking if Our gov't knew what was going on with terrorist groups. He was referring to whether Afgan, Syria,Jordan,and Palestinian heads of state knew what was up with, Bin Laden,Hammas(sp),Islamic Jihad, and other groups. The FBI and Justice Dept keeps pretty close tabs on groups like the KKK, Aryan Nation,and even the Republic of Texas, here in the states. The Islamic leaders may know everything about
the terrorists. But they have a pretty good idea, and they couldn't operate from these countries without at least their permission, if not their support. At this time of night, it is pointing more and more toward Bin Laden. These groups often move into population centers when things get hot, for protection afforded from knowing the U>S> has always shied away from high collatoral damage. There will be a lot of it this time, because we just don't care anymore. 10,000 civilians is a lot of damage here. Members of congress have already indicated that just giving Bin Laden up will not suffice, Afganistan is to pay for their part in harboring him so long. The Russians need the cash, maybe we could pay them to do it, but I think they've had a belly full of their 'Vietnam'. This is no longer just about revenge, it's about justice. Justice for 10,000(est) innocent civilians. Of course
it is important to remember how few invaders have left Afganistan victorious.

MJ: Good points. Bin Laden is a graven coward. If Afghanistan is willing to turn him over, that would be a positive thing, also. It tells the rest of the world that it'll be harder to hide from your wrath. Then you can execute Bin Lanen publicly, and stick his head on a pole. MAKE AN EXAMPLE OF HIM.

I meant that I think US intelligence services (and Isreal's Mossad) probably know more about the goings on of Terrorist groups in the Middle East than many of the Arab countries do. At least until recently that is. I'm sure back in the 70's and 80's they knew where all of the big-wigs in the terrorist community were at any given time. That's just a guess though. The arab states just don't have as many facilities to do this as western countries do.

I'm not too sure how honest the Afghani's are being, though. More to the point, they had their opportunity to produce Bin-Ladin well before this tragedy took place, so they're as much to blame even if they didn't know what he was cooking up.

As for the Palestinians, I don't know how much Arafat knows about what the terrorist bombers there are doing. My suspicion is that he's kept out of the loop. Realistically he and the Palestinian leadership would be a liability if they knew what was going on. They may know where these guys hide out though. The problem is that if they're seen by the Palestinians to be selling out these "freedom fighters" they may lose all their credibility.

I suppose Syria might have some idea of what's going on with Hamas. I doubt if the Lebanese can track their movements or activities, they still have their own problems.

I don't think Libya is in the terrorism game anymore, either. They seem to be trying to go legit.

I'm sorry I've missed out on this thread for this long, but I have been at work. Frankly, EDS your posts disgust me. Your racial bantering is no different, albeit polar, from what Bin Laden tells his people. I'm sure that whoever planned this attack is laughing at you, as you turn on your fellow Americans just because of their heritage. There is little that can piss me off as much as stereotyping of any type. For your information, I am in University: 2nd year Electrical Engineering, top of my class. If I didn't decide on engineering, I would have poli sci, leading into law. Personal attacks on my intelligence, because of the fact that I have a cool head and am able to look at a situation rationally are incredibly unfounded.
I do hope that whoever is responsible for these horrendous attacks is brought down. However killing every non-american would be a very ineffective approach. This is a war, yes I believe a war!, against terrorism. This means they have no country, no territory. Conventional ideas like "bomb them all" just don't apply. In my opinion what needs to be done is unleash the FBI and CIA, surgical strikes, assassinations, and other direct, discreet retaliation is the most effective.
What worries me mostly now is how the US will react. If they go ahead hot-headedly and start bombing the hell out of Iraq, Iran, Sudan, Afghanastan, etc. without discretion there will be many countries that will not stand for it! China, India, maybe even Russia would not allow it! We do not want to polarize such world powers again, it's been done, we should learn from our past. However, some retaliatory action must take place. If there were none, it would be like painting a big target on democracies (particularily the US) everywhere! Not doing anything would be telling whoever is responsible that they can get away with whatever they want!
It is a dilemma, and one that I pray Bush and his advisors can find a reasonable course of action for.

Brandon

quote Originally posted by Nashco: So, does that mean a person with cloth wrapped around their head is wearing a terrorist uniform??? Or does that just mean that all terrorists have cloth wrapped around their head?

pretty much, we should just bomb all the middle east. set an example to the rest of the world, ride them down like grass, make the middle one big hunk of sand.

[This message has been edited by Sleeper (edited 09-12-2001).]

First, I don't think just giving up Bin Laden is going to suffice. Second, The attack in Afghanistan is by rebels of the government. These rebels are hoping to capture/eliminate Bin Laden in order to win U.S. support so they can gain power there.
I don't think the U.S. Government is going to be happy with that. Also Afghanistan is not the only country in Bin Laden's circle.

Many middle-east countries will try to stay out of the way if an Official Decloration of War is instituted. Many know that a line was crossed by this and retaliation will be violent and swift.

In the past punishment of terrorists was limited to those that actually participated in the act. Leaving the planners, financers, and the main structure in place to create more terror.
Now is the time to eliminate them ALL.

My brother told me that he saw a blue fiero in some of the damage shots on TV. It had been crushed by debris. This isn't a car that belongs to anyone we know is it?

Does anybody know?

I just read that they believe the plane that went down in Pittsburgh was headed for the White House. Allegedly, guys on the plane overpowered the rag heads (there's that word again) and crashed the plane before it reached D.C.