Originally posted by Wolfhound: Urchin, U.S. Fighters were circling the city.
Hmm... According to the news broadcast I was watching they weren't American. I know U.S. planes are there now, but apparently as the bombings happened there were foreign fighter planes spotted. Assuming the time frame reported is correct, these could not have been American planes... they simply could not react that fast.
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02:56 PM
Wolfhound Member
Posts: 5317 From: Opelika , Alabama, USA Registered: Oct 1999
Roger, When you fly into National (Reagan) the Pentagon is right under your wing. All planes would have to be locked on during final to have prevented this. How will this be dealt with? It presents a dilemma. Dullis is about 20 miles away. I wouldn't be surprised if National was closed for a while.
Originally posted by rogergarrison: The Pentagon is all military, all branches of service. the jets are flying what they call CAP (close air patrol), there US fighters with orders to shoot down any unknown aircraft. They will also shoot down an airliner if suspect. 100 or so on board instead of hundreds or thousands on ground. I would expect National Guard or Air Force to start doing this as routine around densely populated areas at least for a while. Air Traffic Control will now also keep a close eye on airbourne traffic and following flight plans to the letter.
One thing that did surprise me was that the one jet was able to get to the Pentagon. It is protected by radar operated missiles on the building itself and is a NO FLY restricted airspace. Planes even coming close to it, the captial, or white house are warned to leave imediately or risk being shot down. Im a pilot and really recieved one of those warnings when I was flying into Dullas. "do not deviate from present heading or you may be targeted and shot down" is what I heard in my 6 seat Piper.
Foriegn military aircraft would never have gotten that close. Air Force can have jets in the air within 3 mins. Thats one reason im sure they used hijacked airliners. Foreign military planes are not allowed within 12 miles of US coast without filing prior flight plans and requesting it.
There were no foreign fighter planes anywhere near new york. Think about it, U.S. has all kinds of radar and would identify an obvious enemy plane way off shore. The only reason we didnt identify the airliners as hijacked was because there was no signal given that they were hijacked. So they had trained pilots on board obviously that knew exactly what to do to make sure they plane wouldn't be identified and intercepted.
According to the report the plane that crashed into the pentagon came in low right above tree line (Below radar) and banked right into the pentagon. No chance for a missile to hit or anti-aircraft fire.
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03:08 PM
Urchin Member
Posts: 798 From: London,Ontario,Canada Registered: Feb 2001
Originally posted by Black88GT: There were no foreign fighter planes anywhere near new york. Think about it, U.S. has all kinds of radar and would identify an obvious enemy plane way off shore. The only reason we didnt identify the airliners as hijacked was because there was no signal given that they were hijacked. So they had trained pilots on board obviously that knew exactly what to do to make sure they plane wouldn't be identified and intercepted.
They were all F-15s that I saw, very obvious.
Exactly my reason for question. I'm not blind...I saw what I saw. As for believing it...that is another story. Hence the reason why I brought it up. I am fully aware of the capabilities of radar, and any defence methods used. I was simply wondering where these claims came from.
------------------ If you can read this, I'm parked.
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03:14 PM
rogergarrison Member
Posts: 49601 From: A Western Caribbean Island/ Columbus, Ohio Registered: Apr 99
Originally posted by Wolfhound: Roger, When you fly into National (Reagan) the Pentagon is right under your wing. All planes would have to be locked on during final to have prevented this. How will this be dealt with? It presents a dilemma. Dullis is about 20 miles away. I wouldn't be surprised if National was closed for a while.
Ive never flown into National. You have to call ahead at least a day and they give you an arrival time. You have to be there at the assigned time or you lose your spot. They know that way every flight coming in and precisely what time. There is a corridor that you must fly in without diviating. They discourage all small planes and charge a large landing fee to keep them out. When you are on approach they follow your movements pretty thoughly. It is a tough job though and if they think your up to no good all they have to do is push a button. I have to think someone was asleep on the job or something, as soon as it turned off it flight path it should have been seen and fired on imediately.
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03:15 PM
rogergarrison Member
Posts: 49601 From: A Western Caribbean Island/ Columbus, Ohio Registered: Apr 99
Originally posted by fieronv: According to the report the plane that crashed into the pentagon came in low right above tree line (Below radar) and banked right into the pentagon. No chance for a missile to hit or anti-aircraft fire.
I still have to think someone wasnt paying attention or didnt believe what was happening. Dullas and National both have radar that can even see aircraft on the ground.
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03:21 PM
fierobaby Member
Posts: 4019 From: Niles, Ohio, USA Registered: Jun 2001
its hard to believe this happened... I'm 17 I should have had to seen everything I did... none of us should... I don't know who to blaim but someone did it and when they are found hopfully they will be killed...
If anything I would think that someone couldn't believe what was happening. Also if you were at the trigger would you fire at a commercial airline? I don't think I could.
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03:31 PM
PFF
System Bot
Spektyr Member
Posts: 558 From: Wichita, Ks. USA Registered: Apr 2001
Well for one thing, an anti-aircraft gun or missile isn't going to vaporize a jumbo jet. You may blow it apart, but instead of one huge missile filled with fuel, you'd end up with a few hundred smaller projectiles and pieces in a cloud of burning fuel, still headed towards the Pentagon.
You fly low enough, you can get REALLY damn close to a radar dish before they know you're there. I heard that they were talking about this plane clipping telephone pole wires, so it was damn low.
I'm ex-Navy so I've lived around the Marines. Let me tell you, right about now we've got several thousand Rabid Leathernecks who are just chomping at the bit to get a piece of whoever the a-holes that did this are. Bush just needs to narrow it down and then unleash Mother Green and her Fighting Machine.
Hell, we could make it fair. Just leaflet bomb the entire area.
"To whom it may concern. Tomorrow we're going to send in the entire US Military to kill, maim, and torture those who are responsible for the attacks on American men, women and children. If you are not one of these people, you'd better start handing them over.
Our military will be shooting anything that moves, and most things that don't."
Hell, carpet bomb the fraggers with F.A. Explosives. All the power of a Tac-Nuke, without the annoying side-effects.
Just let the military go to town. We hardly ever let them play with their expensive toys for real.
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03:35 PM
rogergarrison Member
Posts: 49601 From: A Western Caribbean Island/ Columbus, Ohio Registered: Apr 99
true, ud have lots of falling pieces, but theyd fall all over in separate parts, even fields and woods. not like a direct hit into thousands of people. Not nearly the damage. The one that crashed years ago, barely even damaged the bridge it hit. For a while no one even knew it was a plane at all.
This was just utterly horrible!! The Wife works in Downtown Chicago. She called me at 8:30 & said they were telling everyone to evacuate the Downtown area. I freaked out because she works in a Federal building. Prayers go out to all affected by this travesty...
fieronv, that is no shame on you at all that you couldn't push the button to down a commercial airliner and innocent people on board. However, it is my impression that the military people have had plenty of time to think about this, and plenty of training so that the person sitting there to push the button CAN do it. Sorrow about it later, nightmares maybe, etc. but at the moment--able to carry out the duty assigned.
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03:53 PM
HummelHund Member
Posts: 1037 From: Niceville, FL, USA Registered: Apr 2001
I'm feeling fairly safe down in near Eglin AFB, we've got a few fighter squadrons here as well as some Navy squadrons at NAS Pensacola. There's also a SEAL team based over there, and a Ranger base on Eglin. I'm just wondering if the pilot of the plane that crashed in PA crashed it on purpose there to prevent the terrorists from killing any more people than there were actually on the plane. I'd like to think I would've done something like that. My prayers are with the victims and their families.
------------------ Sean W. '84 SE, The "Buzz Bomb". (restoration project/daily driver) '84 SE (Dad's Project)
A friend of mine who's an airline pilot, just told me the following interesting tidbit: All planes were westbound flights and all turned to hit their targets eastbound - facing Mekka.
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04:24 PM
PFF
System Bot
EdsB52 Member
Posts: 850 From: Tempe, Arizona, USA Registered: Jul 2000
Originally posted by Brandon86SE: Alright, I see a lot of slamming going on here that shouldn't be.
I'm 19, and jumped out of bed this morning when my roommate told me that a plane just hit the world trade center. I then watched the coverage for two and a half hours, skipping school. This is by far the biggest tragedy I've seen in my lifetime. The towers, the pentagon, and a jet downed in Penn. (my guess with that is the pilot took it down under gunpoint so it wouldn't get to any major centre) I've been glued to the TV, and horrified with what I've seen this morning. I feel sick to my stomach, all those people. One of my best friend's sister works as an intern at the UN there. I haven't yet been able to get a hold of her, to hear if she's heard from her sister or not.
However, I can't agree with the slamming of arabs and arabic nations taking place. Albeit, the most likely culprit of this is Bin Laden. However, he has released a statement denying any involvement. I saw Arafat on TV nearly in tears commenting on the situation. I haven't seen anything yet, but I'm sure king Hussein of Jordan (a middle eastern country) will release something very soon. They've always kept very close ties with the US and Canada. I can understand the emotional aspect going through everybody right now, and seeing *some*, keyword, *some* palestinians rejoicing in the streets certainly adds to it. But there is no saying where the terrorist leaders are, and running a violent operation in the middle east will likely do nothing more than take innocent lives. I know this will be investigated thoroughly by the FBI, CIA, etc. Running in and scaring everyone important out of the area is not a reasonable course of action. Stealth, and a quiet operation is the only way to really find the people involved.
Saying all arabs are terrorists, and that the whole middle east should be taken over and controlled by the US is wrong, immoral, and bordering racist. Please nobody take this as overly offensive, as I understand the state of heightened emotions everyone is going through right now.
My prayers go out to everyone involved in the situation.
Brandon
You make me look like a conservative moaggot, but in this case I'll wear the title. When you say "school," do you mean High School or Junior High School? Hello.....from the Olympic crisis in the 1972 (I think) Olympics, the 1980 Iranian hostage crisis, the 1993 World Trade Center bombing, the Pan Am lockerbee 747 bombing, do I need to go on??? Terrorism is rag-headism; rag-headism is terrorism. By you saying we don't need to take over that region lock, stock, and barrel tells me you don't care about the safety of your family. What form of terrorism doesn't arive out of the Arabic nations? Does a year go by where some form of terrorism doesn't occur? In WWII, we subjugated the Japs and the Germans for fear they would resurect their military and resume the war; don't we need to implement that strategy with ALLLLLLL of the Arabic nations? Ever get in a fight with someone when they plead you to let them up, you do, and they come back and kick your ass? I did about 12 years ago in a bar fight and had the guy get up and pull a knife on me. Of course I ran my ass off! Anyway, this is not the time for liberal action, unless ofcourse you don't care about your family.
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04:34 PM
85Josh Member
Posts: 425 From: Louisville, Ky USA Registered: Feb 2001
Bin Laden, a Saudi millionaire and Islamic militant, believed to be in exile in Afghanistan, was blamed for the 1998 bombings of the U.S. Embassies in Kenya and Tanzania in which 224 people died.
An Arab journalist with access to bin Laden told Reuters in London the renegade Saudi had warned three weeks ago of an ''unprecedented attack'' on U.S. interests.
Washington has offered a $5 million reward for his capture. George Tenet, director of the CIA, said this week the tall, thin Saudi was the most immediate and serious threat to U.S. security.
Beside the embassy bombings, U.S. officials link bin Laden to last year's bombing of a U.S. Navy ship in Yemen and with foiled plots in the United States and Jordan at the turn of the millennium.
The previous worst act of terrorism in the United States was the 1995 bombing of the Alfred P. Murrah federal building in Oklahoma City in which 168 people died. Timothy McVeigh was executed for that attack earlier this year
The earlier bombing of the World Trade Center in 1993 resulted in six deaths and hundreds of injuries.
Reuters 15:12 09-11-01
Copyright 2001 Reuters Limited. All rights reserved. Republication or redistribution of Reuters content, including by framing or similar means, is expressly prohibited without the prior written consent of Reuters. Reuters shall not be liable for any errors or delays in the content, or for any actions taken in reliance thereon. All active hyperlinks have been inserted by AOL.
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04:40 PM
EdsB52 Member
Posts: 850 From: Tempe, Arizona, USA Registered: Jul 2000
Originally posted by rogergarrison: You know that arab owned businesses and owners are gonna pay when some mad Americans retaliate on them. Personnaly, I think all the arab counties should have been turned into a big hole in the ground full of free oil 20 years ago. Slam me back if you want, we cant sit back anymore and kiss azzes.
Fnckin right. Fnck anyone that slams you for saying that. These rag-head governments hide behind the veil of, "It's not the authority of our government doing this, it's radical factions. We don't condone this and will help the US prosecute the culprits." Is anyone fnckin stupid or naive enough to belive this? I see it already; we're soft-shoeing these MFers. We're going to discover which towel nation did this. Clue to scared government: They all ran down the same German Sheppards leg and they're all related. The target is large, you don't need to discriminate.
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04:45 PM
skitime Member
Posts: 5765 From: Akron, PA, USA Registered: Aug 2000
Originally posted by Cliff Pennock: A friend of mine who's an airline pilot, just told me the following interesting tidbit: All planes were westbound flights and all turned to hit their targets eastbound - facing Mekka.
Perhaps another reason for the western bound planes is they left fully fueled for the west coast with masssive quanities of fuel onboard.
frontal lobe: I was in the Army for 7 years and trained to shoot at enemy targets but I still would of hesitated at shooting a "American" commercial airliner. I don't think that any one in the military could of shoot. What if this was just a plane with a problem? This doesn't mean that I don't want to go out and get revenge for this outrage against America! I just don't want anyone to blame the soldiers that were at the Pentagon. My heart felt sorrow goes out to all the people who are affected by this tragedy.
"In the City of God there will be a great thunder, Two brothers torn apart by Chaos, while the fortress endures, the great leader will succumb", "The third big war will begin when the big city is burning" - Nostradamus-1654
well, the "fortress" mostly endured.. only part of it collapsed.. secretary of state was on the opposite side of the pentagon, so while it's a tragedy, no major loss of command resulted from that strike..
Just heard some woman reporter was on the flight that hit the Pentagon, she was telling her husband on her cellphone that theyd been hijacked by arabs and the phone went dead....
sidenote, get your tanks full gas went up .40 here this afternoon.
Originally posted by DaRkLoRD: what happened with this one?
The only thing more I have heard on that is that the gov't is denying claims that it was gunned down. Something else I heard similar to this is that there are two passenger planes missing! Not sure how that is possible.
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05:46 PM
Mach10 Member
Posts: 7375 From: Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada Registered: Jan 2001
Firstly, I will say that I cannot condone the use of terms like Rag-heads. Please refrain. Not every islamic individual is a frothing lunatic with explosives strapped to his chest. That sort of mentality is the kinds that results in internment camps. That's not a good thing. Please don't go down this road
Having said that, I can only wish Fire and brimstone (with a USAF logo) on the ****ing rabid animals responsible for this. I am PRO US intervention in these matters. I say route out each and every last fanatic. The USs statement about any nation or regime found HARBORING these slimeballs should be considered co-conspirators. I can only hope for minimal civilian casualties, but I say do what needs to be done. Terrorism must be stomped out. Find the party responsible, and terminate with extreme prejudice.
Two packages were left at Capital Hill, here in Canada, so it's a good bet that we will be involved too. It's time for fanaticism and terrorism to stop. If it means all-out war, so be it. Justify it with the lives of innocent people who just got to work.
It's too bad that peace can't last. But I understand that while these groups are still active, with their contempt at all things western (or different), peace cannot exist. Welcome back to the fray, America. It's time to make an example of some sub-human degenerates
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05:54 PM
Urchin Member
Posts: 798 From: London,Ontario,Canada Registered: Feb 2001
It's hard to imagine what these people expected to accomplish by such an apalling act against all of humanity. Just when there were begining to be some stirrings of sympathy for the Palestinian cause, in response to the constant application by force by the Israelis, some zealous faction goes and commits an unspeakable horror that just cannot be justified. To make matters worse, they let themselves be seen celebrating in the streets....I doubt if they ever manage to garner sympathy after this, no matter what happens to them.
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05:58 PM
Urchin Member
Posts: 798 From: London,Ontario,Canada Registered: Feb 2001
fieronv, I tried to make sure you knew I wasn't arguing with you or belittling you, either; and I wasn't disagreeing with you. And you've been in the military and I haven't. I just assumed that whoever was running the defense systems for the pentagon, white house, capitol, etc. would have been prepared to take down ANY kind of threat, even a commercial airliner. I was assuming they would have some pretty concrete guidelines of when to go ahead with such an action. And they certainly wouldn't have tons of time to sit around and discuss it and its implications. And I just assumed it would be gut-wrenching and require a special kind of courage to go ahead with it. But if you or someone else knows differently, please let me know because as I say, I have no experience in the military.
And EdsB52, nobody should think you are inconsistent or hypocritical for being "conservative" in one area and "moderately left" in other area.
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06:05 PM
RiceCooker Member
Posts: 1178 From: Calgary, Alberta, Canada Registered: May 2000
Our planet has been changed forever today... ...The world is a very dark place
I have seen pictures of Palestinians (even children) dancing in the streets and celebrating.
I feel so much pain and sorrow for those who have lost their lives and for the many more innocent people that will lose their lives because of this.
Our world will never be the same, economies, international relations, racism. Im not going to say where i stand on this, in fact im not even sure where i stand but there are many people who will persecute each and every middle eastern asian or arab or whoever they feel is responsible.
Be with the ones, you love and cherish every moment.
...we cannot yet comprehend what has happened and we do not know the events that will unfold...
