I'm probably one of the most conservative Forum members. I believe in peoples' responsibility to keep inoffensive the things they present to the public. For example, I don't think you should have to change the TV station or turn it off when something offensive comes on, rather I believe the TV stations & networks should have a keener sense of taste & decency. But that's not going to happen, is it?

I frequently see and read things in the Totally O/T section which offend me. Up to now I have simply gone on to other topics. But lately those things are so numerous that they are inescapable. And it's not just within the posts of certain threads, it's also in the subject lines, and it even sometimes shows up in sigs. All I can do now is stay completely out of the O/T section.

I respect your right to post whatever you want (subject to Cliff's tolerances), I really do. Apparently the vast majority of Forum members are not bothered by the things that bother me. I'm happy for you that you have a place to enjoy with others. I'm just saying that more often than not, I don't enjoy it anymore.

But this Forum is way too valuable to my Fiero hobby for me to leave it entirely, and hopefully I too have something to contribute to other owners & drivers. I'm just not going to open the O/T section anymore.

I don't expect anyone to be saddened, shocked or changed by this, I just wanted to share my opinion. I am a little curious if anybody has a similar opinion. For a few days I will check this thread for replies. Thanks everybody for your patience in reading this. Most of you won't agree with me, and that's fine. I do enjoy the diversity and the humor and the cool things you people come up with.

Do you know if i can put nitrus on my 84 Fiero?its' a 4 cilinder.

Awww Man! I hope your just messin with all of us here cause we all enjoy your friendship in all the areas of this forum and do value what you have to say.

This is the saddest note I believe we all have gotten.

Awww Cheeve, won't you reconsider?

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quote Originally posted by Maniak84: Do you know if i can put nitrus on my 84 Fiero?its' a 4 cilinder.

Damnit stimp! now you have gone and made me cry. Poor guy is martyring himself and all you do is make me laug... uuuh cry

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This is a copy of RiceCooker's witty signature,
It makes me a lemming

[This message has been edited by 84Bill (edited 06-20-2001).]

quote Originally posted by Maniak84: Do you know if i can put nitrus on my 84 Fiero?its' a 4 cilinder.

i JuSt LuV a ReAl MaN wItH "nItRuS" iN hIs RiDe TeLl Me It LoWeReD aNd HaS lOtSa StIcKeRs

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Show me your 3" Exhaust Tip

quote Originally posted by 84Bill: Damnit stimp! now you have gone and made me cry.

Hey Bill, get a life.

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This is a copy of 84Bill's copy of RiceCooker's witty signature,
It makes me a lemming^2

I second that Steve

hey tiffny i lowrd my car with som bags of concret. sins my shox are blon out it works prety good. I got loony toons nascar sticker with taz over the whole in my fender tat I tried to put a cb antenna on my car and I got those naked girls like on the mudflaps of truckers on my back of my 84 Feiro, its a 4 cilinder. Are you hot loking?

I would like to apologize for my second cousin, Maniak84, and his inproprieties in this thread. His branch of the family didn't believe in leaving the double wide to look for mates.

Bill, I don't think Chuck is "martyring" himself. I have met him in person and he is an extremely good-natured kind of guy. I think that he posted this to brig awareness of what he perceives to be an issue. I admit to probably being more of a cause then a solution, but I wouldn't dream of flaming hin for his convictions.

I think it is probably good to have the OT be a dank basement of sorts where people can air out some of their sillines without corrupting the tech or general chat. I trust that we'll always be able to find the cheeve in those areas continuing to contribute his sincerely upbeat style...
Vaya con dios, el Cheever, we'll be seeing you around.

Maniac84
You had me at hello... you had me at.. hello.

quote Originally posted by Maniak84: hey tiffny i lowrd my car with som bags of concret. sins my shox are blon out it works prety good. I got loony toons nascar sticker with taz over the whole in my fender tat I tried to put a cb antenna on my car and I got those naked girls like on the mudflaps of truckers on my back of my 84 Feiro, its a 4 cilinder. Are you hot loking?

What, no Calvin urinating on a Ford logo?

BTW, I think FieroTiffany is a guy.

mar·tyr [mrtr ] noun (plural mar·tyrs)

1. somebody put to death: somebody who chooses to die rather than deny religious or political beliefs

2. somebody who makes sacrifices: somebody who makes sacrifices or suffers greatly in order to advance a cause or principle

3. somebody in pain: somebody who experiences frequent or constant pain as a result of something

4. somebody seeking attention: somebody who complains a great deal in order to get sympathy from others

Hehe, Steve. Darn cordless keyboard and fat fingers. I know HOW to spell, sometimes it just gets away from me. I'll be watching you!

Oh and Bill, ease up on Cheever. He's a nice guy. There's not a lot of them left.

Ok stimpy I respect your opinion of the man.
Let me put down the flame thrower, take off my body armor put down my trusty side arm (websters dictionary) flick on the light and crack open the door to my bunker for a sec.
I would like to make an apology to Cheever2, I know I have put up some posts on here that some would find offensive.
So to keep this place that I enjoy so much a little bit cleaner, for him and for others that have been here for a while and still other that may follow. I will refrain from using any sort of outright profanity in any way. I do enjoy this place since it combines both my love of computers and passion for Fieros. I can only wish that others enjoy it how ever it suits them. Cliff has stepped in and made "general" comments here and there, I have respectfully stayed within those bounds. He made no comments on the use of language and indications of language in any posts I have seen(except for the auto thing) but I will not myself give him a reason to.
Cheever2 I respect your position, your leaving O/T was not in vain

[This message has been edited by 84Bill (edited 06-20-2001).]

I'm a nice guy hehe.. the devil is always on my tail though

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1988 Hawaiin Orchid Coupe
AIM: GalenRPG

quote Originally posted by stimpy: I'll be watching you!

So that's you in the white van on the other side of the street. I was suspicious at the lettering on the side that said, "Flower Delivery, Not A Surveillance Van".

quote Originally posted by Steve Normington: So that's you in the white van on the other side of the street. I was suspicious at the lettering on the side that said, "Flower Delivery, Not A Surveillance Van".

Darned surveillance vans.

A lot of things offend me too, but I suck it up and (sometimes) ignore them.

Cheever,

The whole dang board seems to be getting out of hand as I mentioned in one of my other posts, the George Carlin thing.

We've always gotten along good and I will be glad to see you still in other sections. If the attacks keep on going I think we will see more and more people leaving the board altogether. We have lost a few good ones in the last few months already.

Stand for what you believe in, buddy. That is all we can do...

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Tennessee Fiero Owners

If some people are actually leaving this board because of what you are reading, then you don't really give a **** about cars... It'll only be the minority that can deal with opposition and conflict that are still here. The reason this whole board is here is because of a common interest in cars.. specifically, FIEROS... if you can't deal with what most of us call HUMOUR, so be it.

I have as much or more humor than the next guy, Johnny.. A lot of what has been going on here lately is nothing short of personal attacks and nit-picking at anything to flame over... If you think it is all humor, you are reading different posts than I am.

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Tennessee Fiero Owners

quote Originally posted by Cheever2: ....I am a little curious if anybody has a similar opinion....

I agree with you Cheever. I have just about quit looking at the O/T section except to follow a couple of older threads that I had found to be of interest. And since it looks like they have fallen off the map, I won't be back here (the O/T section) either. Besides the subjects, posts, etc., that I find offensive, it pretty much just looks like an AOL chat room around here. I don't have a problem with that, I just don't care to be involved.

I will continue to enjoy the Technical, General and Mall sections though and hope I can learn something new about my car and maybe help someone out occassionally.

I would rather have the freedom to feel the need to change the channel, than to be limited to what can be aired in the guise of "political correct"edness.

You never know when you will be the next one to be censored, and for reasons you feel are *completely* unfair to you.

Do what you gotta do, Cheever... see you in the other sections.

Cheever2: I'm with you on this one. If I'm not mistaken, though, some people here misred you (and some just ignored you, which in a way proves your point). I don't completely agree with Songman's comments. While personal attacks here may or may not have become more severe (depending on your definition or a personal attack), it's more the general content, swearing (can't say I'm not guilty of that) and 'low' quality of posts that are on the rise. Some people almost seem to make an effort to sound like idiots. It discourages me to read on when I see stupid posts or topics.
Oh, and before some of you flame me for not having been here long enough, I've been reading PFF for a couple of years now and even used to post from time to time (mainly in technical).

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quote Originally posted by JohnnyK: If some people are actually leaving this board because of what you are reading, then you don't really give a **** about cars...

Couple of points. First, Cheever did not say that he was leaving the forum, just that he will be mostly avoiding O/T. Now as far as someone being offended by some of the topics in the O/T section equalling that tey are not hardcore Fiero fans, well that's a serious jump in logic. What does pot smoking, ****, or making someones celphone go beep have to do with cars.

Nw, Cheever2 is a hardcore car guy. He woke up at 3 in the morning to drive his car up from Houston Tx to Oklahoma City to attend a Fiero show, bringing a spare deck strapped to his decklid for a Fiero brother. What have you done for us lately,Johnny?

What have I done? Thats sounds kind of like a personal attack. i wasn't attacking anyone, i was questioning their logic. I offer, no one takes them (I still need someone too take all the crap from my shed).. Frankly, I know most of the topics in here are stupid, but I still use this section to get information (about, gas heaters for instance). You never see me starting topics about donuts and what not.

I just can't say anything right lately! heheh

I think me and Maniak are gonna go somewhere and have a beer... it's a 4 cylinder, right?

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Tennessee Fiero Owners

True dat, Johnny. But you (and I, believe me I realize that) have been known to get a bit incindiery in response to some threads. I enjoy most threads, even the stupid ones and the flame wars. Does that make me a "car guy"? Those are totally unrelated attributes.
Don't take what I'm saying as a personal attack Johnny. You're alright, for a Canadian. (Uh oh, here comes Voytek, I'm gonna get an a$$-whuppin!) I just wanted to make a point that Chuck is definately a "car guy", and I thik that is part of the reason why he'd rather not go through the type of topics that are populating this section. Different strokes for different folks, right?

What is "stupid"?
What defines stupidity in a O/T section?
Here in O/T, you can post what ever the hell you want to(within reason). I may not agree with some of these posts, but it is what another member is wanting to post, so be it.

Let it go.

Cheever, I agree w/ you. I don't consider myself to be too conservative but it sure seems like the aggression level in all categories is up by 10K % over the last several months. Profanity is definitely up and flames seem to be more easily started (maybe the dry weather...). If Cliff ran stats on those items I'm sure it would be off the charts in the last 3 or so months. Humor does not necessitate profanity. Maybe we could talk Cliff into starting a rude-n-crude category for those that have the need. On the 1st amendment comments... Americans are free to say whatever they want... here are two examples: in MI you can be arrested for swearing in public or earshot of child or something; in any state (maybe even here on the forum) someone can be hauled into court for defamation and slandering and end up poor and penniless for life. So define 'free speech'. And no I'm not ACL activist. I think those laws serve their purpose and would prefer to see some control maintained here on the forum... preferably voluntarily by respect and courteousness to others. BTW if we don't show some respect to the women of the forum we may drive them away as well.
Sorry for the rant, you're free to skip...

Wait a second.. You can't swear on this thing.. it just turns into astericks... are you telling me that the space where a profanity SHOULD be is too vulgar for you?!

87GTZ43 - Women get more respect, admiration and drooling on the forum than any guy. If I see any more respect, I'm gonna start having respect coming out of my you-know-what.
Stimpy - you got THAT right (the a$$ whuppin' thing).
Oh, and WTF is 'incindiery'???

Johnny, No the words will get masked but the implied intent comes through clearly. Here is an example specific implication and non-specific implication... eg "what the f***" and "what the ...". If you tell me that 99.99999% of the english reading population can not fill in the asterisks, I'll call you a swamp salesman (PC for BS). The intent for the 1st one is quite clear and need not be specified while the 2nd one is left for the reader to put their own word/thought in the sentence. (to each their own w/o offense)

Voytek BTW my car is a 3.4 not a 4.3 (60 degree vs 90 degree). I think the word you were searching for is 'attention' and I agree with you. I wouldn't exactly say respect though. eg. When a new female 1st announces her membership to the club, a very long thread emerges with at least one existing male member (don like that wording), asking her to post a picture of herself. I don't think that has ever happened w/ a new male addition. If she had a sense of humor (and the ultimate Fiero - one that appealed to the masses), posted a picture of the ugliest woman she could find, she would never get a 'pile on' thread again (until the joke was out). This of course is not fact, just my opinion but I would lay serious money on it. Now don't get me wrong, I don't think messing/joking around is a bad thing but it has been taken to the extreme and probably made some of the lady folk a bit uneasy. I guess my intended msg is to keep it light but don't offend. It takes more wit to carry that out than it does to be crass step on other forum members (Cheever comes to mind). Granted you can't please all of the people... but if we were to move the line up a notch or two, I think we would have a better forum and less people would be offended.

quote Originally posted by JohnnyK: It just turns into astericks... are you telling me that the space where a profanity SHOULD be is too vulgar for you?!

Gosh by golly yes I guess it would be to some. But gee willikers it's not that dad gummed hard to come up with other more PC words to use in their place. I mean jinkeys I think it will actually be fun to use alternate words for a change.

Being an "in your face" conservative type, I agree with Cheeve in spirit, but have decided to deal with the possible repercussions. My view is that there are people, when overcome with logic, will resort to shouting and namecalling. If there's no light, how do people tell what the dark is? On a forum like this, the readers can and have to make up their own minds.

I have my opinions, I try not to include asterisks, and I try to get across the idea of what I mean without appearing to attack. Sometimes I fail, especially when I talk to my wife.... However, I stand, brush myself off, and try again. As the Hebrew National commercial used to say, "(I) have to answer to a Higher Authority."

As to the First Ammendment, it has been established that "community standards" is the general rule, and that some speech is not protected (e.g.: Yelling "Fire!" in a crowded automobile forum.) Hate it as much as I do, the KKK and the ACLU have an equal right to their opinions, and to state them clearly and logically (If either group possibly could) without creating a riot. Of course, a favorite, asterisk laden adage of mine is that opinions are like (rectums), everone's got one, and it's usually full of (more asterisks).

As far as I'm concerned, I've done a good job here when, in however long it takes, my Formula is done, and I drive off to a show, and one or all of you are there, we can all take the time to shake hands and say, "Good to know you."

Perhaps we shall have to implement a G-PG-13-R-XXX rating system in the subject line, that way you will know whether it is too offensive for you. That way none will be insulted by the rednecks, perverts, retards and unmentionables who get their kicks from posting stupid stuff that has nothing tuh do wit fieros. Oops, I'm one of them!

So it doesn't actually matter if the actual profanity is there, it's the INTENT that bugs you? Isn't that a bit childish? I mean, people swear. I don't care if it's classy or not, people do. Do you not rent any movies because they're are swear words? Your not one of those people that take them back and demand refunds because it was barbaric and unfit for children?

Johnny, I swear... and cuss too... like a Marine. Especially when I have the decklid up and the car argues with me. My point was that this is a public forum governed by applicable law and Cliff's rules so people 'should' act as if they are in public and not in the privacy of their office, bedroom, bars etc. I don't care what standard other's choose to live by, that is why I live here. It was merely a suggestion. If people are not offended by a certain behavior then by definition that is an acceptable behavior. In this case Cheever was offended by something (I don't know what) and I mentioned that people may want to expand their vocabulary.
IMO this topic is a pile horse bones (maybe even ashes)... I've spoken my piece and no hard feelings so I will spend my valuable energy on more interesting threads such as the 500 post Lisa thread... (nah not really)