In a couple of thousand years of civilization we as a society have been unable to prove or disprove either theory. We sure as hell aren't going to come to a scientific confirmation in a forum of car guys. Nothing personal against the originator of this thread, but I believe if widely responded to, it will achieve nothing but inflame tempers. I hope this thread dies a quick and painless death.
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09:05 AM
hugh Member
Posts: 5563 From: Clementon,NJ,USA Registered: Jun 2000
I agree with Stimpy. I've learned in the past that people get extremely disgluntled when some mentions anything that goes against the existence of God. And if I were a christian, I'm sure that I'd feel just as strongly.
I agree, minds probably won't be changed by this, but if you want my vote: the theory of evolution is garbage.
Humans were never animals, and have always had souls, whereas animals never have.
Eyes. They could not have evolved. You either have them or you don't, no in-between is possible.
All mutations are destructive, not constructive. Metamorpheses are not evolutionary, and hybrids do not reproduce.
Time and space. God put the two together for our existence, and He can take them apart.
I just told my wife about this discussion, and her .02 is: either of those you vote for have to be taken by faith, but there's more scientific evidence for a divine creator than for things to have evolved by chance.
I don't know what to believe any more... I used to be a pretty big Christian. But now...I just don't know anymore. I want to believe in God, but there are so many facts that disproves his very existance. Now a days, you either believe in a God, or you believe in Science. If God were to just come down here right now, throw me some words, I would definitly believe in him...no doubt. But this has not happend. But maybe its just me...maybe its because of the fact that so many of my loved ones have died on me as of late(since new years day) and all of my recent misfortunes. Maybe this is why I question my believes. So when it comes down to evolution vs. creation, I kind of want to side more with creation in hopes that there is a God out there.
Well, I know this is going to start something, but it has to be said.. Creation... What a load of crap.. I'm sorry, but all this people who believe in creation say there is all this stuff to disprove evolution, but there is not ONE solid fact of proof for creation. I'm sorry guys, but people don't appear out of thin air. People evolve. I have yet to find someone who can give me one piece of evidence for creation without saying "The bible". (My ex was a crazy christian, sorry if I'm a little bitter on this subject). Anyways, there are a lot more things to prove evolution than there are creation (considering there is NOTHING to prove creation). Alright, I'm done for the moment.
So, all living things have some stuff similiar in their DNA. What does that prove? What about when scientists discovered a pyramid of one of the great Egyptian Pharaohs. Inside was the tomb of the leader's young son. The detailed hieroglyphics gave a discription of how the first born son was stricken with a great plague. Science were able to put a date with the time of this Pharoah's reign- The biblical account of the Passover. There is scientific evidence that key events of the Bible did happen. Why does every living thing share some of the basic DNA code? We all came from the same origins. If there is a such thing of evolution, and we evolved from lower forms of life, then why are there still these lower forms of life? Why are there not apemen running around somewhere today?
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01:11 PM
Raydar Member
Posts: 40726 From: Carrollton GA. Out in the... country. Registered: Oct 1999
I think that there may be a bit of truth and much misunderstanding to both sides of the story. All of our beliefs and theories are based upon information that has been handed down (and subject to interpretations and translations) through the ages. That includes the Bible. Bottom line? I don't know. I believe that Science and Religion don't have to be mutually exclusive, though.
------------------ Raydar - aka Steve
88 T-top Formula 88 soon-to-be-V6 coupe
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01:11 PM
Patrick's Dad Member
Posts: 5154 From: Weymouth MA USA Registered: Feb 2000
KR31: It's OK to question your faith, even to question God. Sometimes it makes your faith stronger. Seek, and you will find.
JohnnyK: I've yet to see a person evolve. In thousands of years of recorded history, we are still the same. Our attitudes haven't even evolved....
In the beginning, there was an infinitesimal point of infinite energy. Then, one day (For lack of a better term. In the absolute nothingness that surrounded it, which didn't actually exist, but, for the point of argument, we will say was there, and had the property of linear time, which also didn't exist....), it exploded, creating in it's impossibly hot confines, all of the matter, energy, and time that we can and can't observe. Some 10-12 billion years later, in a coalescing mass that would become a galaxy, a smaller coalescing mass becomes a main sequence star, and ten other, much smaller masses become planets, although, one almost becomes a tiny star itself. One of the planets can't handle the strain of being near the almost star, so it explodes into hundreds of thousands of bits. One of the other planets, a rocky body, is just the perfect distance to form a stable atmosphere and oceans, for the one closer to the star will have runaway greenhouse effect, and the one behind it will be too cold. But the third planet (We didn't talk about the first planet), was just right, tilted 23º, so that when it was closer to the sun, the northern hemisphere, where most of the dry landmass was, would be tilted away from the star, and it would not get too hot, and vice versa. From this, chemicals souped together to form bacterium, which mutated into cells, which joined together to form crude creatures, then more complex, specialized forms, then to plants, fish, animals, dinosaurs (Which were killed by a piece of that planet that couldn't take the strain) and, finally, primates that could not only communicate, but reason and question their place in this universe.....
Which story takes more faith?
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01:32 PM
stimpy Member
Posts: 8197 From: Salinas, CA Registered: Jan 2000
And so it starts... I don't know of any other subject that is going to inspire more strongly held opinions. Where we come from strikes a resonance to the very core of our beings. What is our true identity, cosmic incident or the loved creation of a divine sentient being? I think people will always look to the theory that is more complimentary to their lifestyle.
I think the creation theory does put more burden on individuals to lead an ethical, moral existence. The existence of a higher power makes us mortals divine creatures in our own right if indeed we are created in God's image. However, if our existence can be attributed to a chaotic chemical incident, then we have no real responsibility to our fellow man above some reptilian instinct.
Since no one on this forum was there at the beginning of existence, nor can we refer to anyone who was, we must take the whole question on faith. I'd prefer to side on the fence that has room for a divine power that brought our existence to be.
Patricks Dad: It takes a lot more blind faith to believe that people just suddenly "beamed" into existance.. All of a sudden there was nothing, and then there were two naked people standing there? I don't think so. Cooter: That is exactly what I am talking about. I want someone to give me a piece of evidence towards Creation, NOT try to DISPROVE evolution. All Christians ever do is try to disprove every other theory, knowing very well that there is no proof to their beliefs. I also have yet to meet one christian who can talk and have a logical argument without every answer being "Read the Bible" "It's in the bible". Without the bible, Christianity has nothing to go on. (Not trying to be a dick, just stating my opinion). Thank you.
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01:47 PM
hugh Member
Posts: 5563 From: Clementon,NJ,USA Registered: Jun 2000
Whoa there JohnnyK, you got yourself one hell of a Marilyn Manson complex! You, like really, hate "Christianity". Here's something smokable for yor pipe. Every single religion (that I am aware of) holds some form of creationism as a core belief. So go ahead and throw Bhuddist, Taoist, Islamic, and Hindu folks in the mix. In fact, the only relgion that holds evolution as a forgone conclusion is the religion of science. Johnny, you ask for someone to prove that we did not evolve and that we were created without quoting scripture. What it boils down to is faith. If you prefer to put your faith in a lack of divinity in man, then that is your right. I think that you cheapen your own existence in the process. But to ask for proof that someting never happened, sorry, by definition that is impossible. Only things that happened can be proved, and at this time, neither theory has been proved. Gotta have faith.
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02:10 PM
Will Member
Posts: 14226 From: Where you least expect me Registered: Jun 2000
Originally posted by KnightRyder31: I don't know what to believe any more... I used to be a pretty big Christian. But now...I just don't know anymore. I want to believe in God, but there are so many facts that disproves his very existance.
Tell me a few of these facts which disprove God's existence.
Now a days, you either believe in a God, or you believe in Science. If God were to just come down here right now, throw me some words, I would definitly believe in him...no doubt.
"..blessed are they who have not seen and yet believe..."
Really, how much of a stretch is it to believe in something standing in front of you? Our evolutionist friends here could manage that one.
But this has not happend. But maybe its just me...maybe its because of the fact that so many of my loved ones have died on me as of late(since new years day) and all of my recent misfortunes. Maybe this is why I question my believes.
Think about Job's experience. You're not the only one to have problems. My Grandfather died recently.
So when it comes down to evolution vs. creation, I kind of want to side more with creation in hopes that there is a God out there.
"...faith as a mustard seed..."
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02:18 PM
Will Member
Posts: 14226 From: Where you least expect me Registered: Jun 2000
Originally posted by JohnnyK: Patricks Dad: It takes a lot more blind faith to believe that people just suddenly "beamed" into existance.. All of a sudden there was nothing, and then there were two naked people standing there? I don't think so. Cooter: That is exactly what I am talking about. I want someone to give me a piece of evidence towards Creation, NOT try to DISPROVE evolution. All Christians ever do is try to disprove every other theory, knowing very well that there is no proof to their beliefs. I also have yet to meet one christian who can talk and have a logical argument without every answer being "Read the Bible" "It's in the bible". Without the bible, Christianity has nothing to go on. (Not trying to be a dick, just stating my opinion). Thank you.
Show me some evidence which disproves creation.
If there are two states for each gene (and there are more for some), then the total number os states accessible to 30000 genes is 2 raised to the 30000th power. That's a big number. Why don't you thnk about the probabilities of assembling thirty thousand bits into the correct sequence to make you... randomly. That's of the same order as the probability of a monkey hitting random keys typing out Hamlet.
Examine the world aorund you. How many processes can you name which take things from disorder to order but are not the result of consciousness? Loosely speaking, you--within you body--have considerably more order than the soil and rock on which you walk, which in turn is more orderly than interstellar dust and gas. Consciousness is the only process in the universe which goes from disorder to order. Everything else goes the other direction.
Originally posted by Patrick's Dad: JohnnyK: I've yet to see a person evolve. In thousands of years of recorded history, we are still the same. Our attitudes haven't even evolved....
Physical evolution takes millions of years to occur naturally.. and psyhologically, everyone has the capacity to act in any way, and people's attitudes aren't dependent on our DNA.... therefore attitudes can change over time, but not "evolve".
Some facts that disprove creation? How about the fact that NOTHING has EVER just appeared out of nowhere? How about the fact that the only thing that states creation is correct is the bible. Things don't just "happen". The world isn't just "created" out of nothing in 7 days. Nothing appears out of thin air. At least science tries to prove things, instead of relying on blind faith that you hope there is something better than this. I have to come to accept the fact that this, is hell.
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03:37 PM
bHooper Member
Posts: 4156 From: greensboro, nc Registered: May 99
Thank you Patricks Dad...I believe that you are right. Will: Why are you attacking me? All I said is how I feel, thats all. I didn't think it was the christain way to attack someone. Do you want me to make a damn list of all the people that have died on me in the past 2 months??? I will if needed. I am not saying that I'm the only one with problems, I never said that, because I know its untrue. All I'm saying is whats on my mind, I don't mean to piss anyone off, I'm sorry if I had. I have to agree with GTBasterd...this is going to turn into a big flame war very quick.
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04:44 PM
stimpy Member
Posts: 8197 From: Salinas, CA Registered: Jan 2000
Originally posted by JohnnyK: At least science tries to prove things, instead of relying on blind faith that you hope there is something better than this. I have to come to accept the fact that this, is hell.
Someone needs to take sharp bjects and shoelaces away from JohnnyK. Man, what a depressing outlook on life. I don't think there is anything wrong with science. If something comes along that confirms the theory of evolution, I would be open to discussing its merits. However, the best argument I've seen comes from discounting the theory of creation, which comes out sounding a lot like hatred towards organized religion. Even with the theory of evolution, the origin of matter and energy must be accounted for. Personally, I think these are far too weighty of topics to be sussed out in a discussion of car geeks. I'm sure with a proper search, one could find a discussion on the internet of learned theologians and scientists where an enlightened debate is being carried out. Here in Fieroland just ain't the place.
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05:13 PM
Will Member
Posts: 14226 From: Where you least expect me Registered: Jun 2000
Originally posted by JohnnyK: Some facts that disprove creation? How about the fact that NOTHING has EVER just appeared out of nowhere? How about the fact that the only thing that states creation is correct is the bible. Things don't just "happen". The world isn't just "created" out of nothing in 7 days. Nothing appears out of thin air. At least science tries to prove things, instead of relying on blind faith that you hope there is something better than this. I have to come to accept the fact that this, is hell.
Are you going to do anything but state "It isn't so."? I was hoping for an open minded discussion. Just because Humans have not observed something doesn't mean it has never happened. Science doesn't walk around with the proverbial chip on it's shoulder trying to prove something. Science seeks to understand the universe. This entails an open-minded approach. Only ideas that can be disproven by observable facts/phenomena can be discounted. The existence of God has not and can not be disproven by observable facts/phenomena.
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05:19 PM
Shaun41178 Member
Posts: 1285 From: Whiney McWhinersons Moms Coochie Registered: Jan 99
All religions have a basic story of creation because people wonder where they came from. So a story was born of how humans came to be. Then this story was written with a collection of other stories that were handed down and then this book was given a title.
Anyone here ever play the "Telephone" game when a kid? You start off a story and tell one person and only one person then that person goes and tells one other person. By the time you get to the 10th, 20th or hundreth person that story is not the same as the original story. Ok now play this game with hundreds of years of story telling. The story is going to be different by a considerable amount from the original story. I guess when it comes to "The Bible" I am not a literalist. I think many of the books or stories in the bible are just stories to describe what happened.
So carbon dating was able to say that a son of some pharoh died of some strange disease around the time of the plagues in Egypt. SO WHAT! It doesn't prove that a God was behind it. All it says is that science today can't explain what disease this son died of.
Christianity believed for the longest time or maybe even still does believe that we are the only living concious beings in this great universe. Now science has shown that life once existed on Mars with some rock that was found here on Earth. So now The "pope" for the catholic church had to recognize this fact and say that "maybe we aren't alone" I mean in all these galaxies and all these star systems that there is not one other planet that has intelligent life on it? Give me a break. Do these intelligent beings have souls too? Will we meet them in "heaven" too?
Why do all religions think that their religion is the "correct" religion and all others not believing in "their" religion are going to hell? If intelligent life exists on other planets out there at this time and since Jesus and Christianity only is on this planet, and to christians it is the "correct" religion, then does that mean that all those other living beings are going to go to hell too?
For the longest time Catholics believed the Earth was the center of the universe and that the earth was even flat. People were condemed for saying the earth was round and that it was also not the center of the Universe like religion had taught. How many people died from the churches hand over the years because it had such control over peoples lives and dictated what people could or could not believe? Advanced Science comes along and then the church has to keep changing its belief system.
It has been proven that the universe is some 12 billion years old. Our solar system has been proven by science that it is only 4 billion or so years old. So that means that it took roughly 8 billion years after the universe "began" for our planet to even begin to take shape as a hot ball of rock. What was going on in those 8 billion years? What was god doing? Was he creating life on other planets and giving them a choice and a Jesus too?
Life did not start here on this planet in 7 days. At least it wasn't a 24 hour day that we have today. This has been proven by science I might add you. This does not prove that there isn't a God though. It just disproves a story in the bible. Which is why I find literalists of the bible rather funny. They irritate me but I laugh in the end.
I can write more but no reason to as I am not going to change anyones mind. Just expressing some of my personal beliefs and questions that I ask others that are so strong in their beliefs. I went to catholic schools my whole life as a kid and I think it only made me disbelieve more as it left more questions then answers. At least science can give me answers. This doesn't mean I don't believe in a God. perhaps something did create the universe and there is some omnipotent being out there that created the universe and is just letting it go from there. Whatever happens in the universe happens and if life exists on other planets then thats all good too.
By the way I really enjoyed the movie "Dogma" too. If you havent' seen it then I suggest you rent it.
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05:27 PM
Will Member
Posts: 14226 From: Where you least expect me Registered: Jun 2000
Originally posted by KnightRyder31: Thank you Patricks Dad...I believe that you are right. Will: Why are you attacking me? All I said is how I feel, thats all. I didn't think it was the christain way to attack someone. Do you want me to make a damn list of all the people that have died on me in the past 2 months??? I will if needed. I am not saying that I'm the only one with problems, I never said that, because I know its untrue. All I'm saying is whats on my mind, I don't mean to piss anyone off, I'm sorry if I had. I have to agree with GTBasterd...this is going to turn into a big flame war very quick.
I'm wondering if I shouldn't even respond to this as I will probably just dig a deepr hole, but here goes:
I wasn't attacking you. I wasn't trying to attack you. I'm sorry you took it that way. I was only trying to offer a little help.
From my point of view, it came across as though you were saying "I'm questioning my beliefs because bad things are happening to me." This brought the story of Job to mind. I'm sorry if I interpereted your words incorrectly. Patrick's Dad said to seek. I was just trying to give some advice on where.
Maybe I should just keep my big mouth shut next time and expend my energies on an argument that can not be won by either side instead of trying to help people.
Originally posted by rodmcneill: What are the members views on this since this has come up for discussion in various school districts around the country.
I don't care either way. I have better things to think about.
Oh yeah just to correct something, Catholics don't believe that any other religion but their own is going to Hell or whatever, we believe that if you have a good heart you will go to heaven, even if your an Atheist. So I am staying out of all this but I will correct falsehoods.
Shaun, it was not carbon dating (the same method that has a 10 million year variance between the head and tail of the same skeleton), but the detailed description that was in the hyroglyphics found in the tomb. That account was as it was described in the Bible. Why would a great pharoah write such details if they never happened?
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06:09 PM
Tigger Member
Posts: 4368 From: Flint, MI USA Registered: Sep 2000
I agree with Raydar. It's hard to take one view while completely discrediting the other. Ok, we evolved from a single cell organism that slowly evolved into what we are today. That's a jim dandy way to look at it, however what created the single cell?
One of the biggest things we don't understand, that still leaves some room for a god-created universe is what caused the Big Bang, and what was here before it happened?
What was here? Space was here. Infinite space (well, I've never been to the boundaries, I can't imagine infinite space, but I assume it is. Shaun: Amen.
Black88GT: Well, take Pentacostals for example. If you don't believe in what they believe in, you are going to hell. You are damned, etc, etc.
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08:23 PM
stimpy Member
Posts: 8197 From: Salinas, CA Registered: Jan 2000
Johnny, now it seems like you are intentionally muddying the waters. This debate is not at all about the merits of orginized religion. I personally have a phobia about attending large worship services due to being a victim of some pretty heinous behavior from church people. So I can kinda relate to your distrust of religion. The origin of existence is a far larger question then "Who is right, the Methodists or the Lutherens?". I urge you to divorce your mind from your hatred of religion and be open to the possibility that there is something spiritual to our being. I think that you may actually find some comfort in the thought that we are not just walking worm food.
cooter there are no apemen cause we ate them like the many other cridders we wiped out in those days. human evolution is prouven fact DNA? shows who decended from what when ect.carbon data is easy to f up small ash on bone could do it. darklord good call. big bang =god, well if it wants to why not but christians don't like any compition look at the record up over 1 billion killed by them in holy wars and witch hunts ect evil nasty system the new evil empire.have they stoped killing people, not in most places just a pause now. any one trying to prevent teaching of evolution is a nut as is any one beleving in createnisum.
[This message has been edited by ray b (edited 02-25-2001).]
I have a friend who is doing a lot of research in the field of using science to prove religion. As for the seven days... there is a formula that has been calculated which would equate the seven days at the time of creation to the more likely 4.5 billion years or so that it would equate to today.
Another thing that was found out in the field, was the probablity of everything occuring just how it is without divine intervention. I believe it was somewhere upon the odds of winning the big time lotto 1000 times in a row.
Also, for those who say that there has been no visible signs of God.... i used to feel the same way. I was in a big time struggle with my faith at that point in time, so i asked for a sign. i received one and it helped out a lot.
Things on the Bible.... While i do believe that most of the things in the great Book are true, you must keep in mind who wrote it. God did not pass the Bible down from his big comfy LazyBoy and there it was. Men (and maybe women too) wrote it, so there is the possibility of distortion.
Also i am curious about a couple of things mentioned. First off, is it true that catholics believe that if you have a good heart you go to heaven, with or without religion? i hadn't heard that before, but being lutheran, i guess i wouldn't have. Second, why is it that we can't discuss topics like this here? this is the off topic section and i don't see how the fact that we are crazy about our cars that we shouldn't have any other interests. Why should it be a flame war? the majority of us are adults here, so why are we going to get bent out of shape if others have other opinions?
Alright, there were my two cents, and i hope that i offended someone, cause that is how all good deep conversations start.
peace out,
------------------ Fuzz busters are for those who can't outrun the cops.
