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Creationism vs Evolution by rodmcneill
Started on: 02-25-2001 03:48 AM
Replies: 154
Last post by: Oreif on 03-08-2001 11:58 PM
ray b
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Report this Post02-27-2001 01:42 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ray bSend a Private Message to ray bDirect Link to This Post
scientific american
[http://www.pbs.org/saf]
science news
[http://www.sciencenews.org]
if you want to learn the truth
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ray b
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Report this Post02-27-2001 02:21 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ray bSend a Private Message to ray bDirect Link to This Post

ray b

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man made god, all the gods in his image for mans reasons, so you are god.
DNA is the record of evolution itis all in the code and soon will be used to do many things not dreamed of in resent past.like clones and grown parts for replacement organs.
evil men in the church fear the truth and try to hide it with BS like creatinisum.
just as gaileio was told to not speak in past.
those who don't remember history will repeat it. thats why gW bush is a big threat to freedom now.
you can beleve what you want but if my laws are based on your fairrie tails we got a big problem this is not a christian nation but a free nation and i hope it stays that way as the rule of law is better than rule by gods will or what nuts think is gods will.
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TheHans
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Report this Post02-27-2001 03:53 PM Click Here to See the Profile for TheHansSend a Private Message to TheHansDirect Link to This Post
Wow Stimp,
Take a breather..
151 really got ya goin'
Too bad you couldn't make a decent comeback.
You really made yourself look uneducated.
At least you accomplished something in your infantile writings.
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1FST2M6
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Report this Post02-27-2001 04:58 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 1FST2M6Click Here to visit 1FST2M6's HomePageSend a Private Message to 1FST2M6Direct Link to This Post
i'll quote from the book of Armaments Chapter 2, verses 9-21
"..oh Lord bless this thy Hand Grenade, that with it thow maist blow thine enemies to tiny bit in thy mercy... "


[This message has been edited by 1FST2M6 (edited 02-27-2001).]

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p4n1c
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Report this Post02-27-2001 05:00 PM Click Here to See the Profile for p4n1cSend a Private Message to p4n1cDirect Link to This Post
I think there would be a lot less problems in the world if people would just shut the fu** up about this subject. Believe what you want of how we came to be here, all I know is that I came out of my mothers womb. Just like most mammals on the planet.

We are here, we are alive, that's all that matters. Enjoy life and quit bitching about something that doesn't even matter in the scheme of life. We live, we die. Where we go after that? Who knows? The only way to know is to die.

To say anyone is educated about this subject is full of sh**, did we(as in us on this planet Earth in this day and age) live so many billions of years ago? No. Are there accurate records? No. Is there adequate evidence on either side to make a solid conclusion? No. Should we waste our limited time on this planet to ***** about it? In my opinion, No.

So take the time that you would've took responding to this thread and go out and have fun, work on your Fiero or take the kids out for ice cream. Do something productive.

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Report this Post02-27-2001 05:14 PM Click Here to See the Profile for stimpySend a Private Message to stimpyDirect Link to This Post
Ya know, the Canadian guy makes sense.

I think it's ludicrous to think that someone will "win" this argument. I think it is good to have an open mind in matters metaphysical, and it does comfort me to believe in a divine creator. If that makes me weak, relying on a crutch to get through life, so be it. Everyones got their crutches. I certainly don't feel that a personal faith makes me a dangerous killer, devoid of all morals, any more then I believe that those who don't feel as I do are bound for an eternity of damnation. I know this topic will go on, with our resident crank rabies chiming in with his charming Son of Sam writing style of his,but I think it's time folks realize that no minds will be changed and no souls saved. It's just a bunch of car geeks chirpin'.

Oh, PS to TheHans... "You talkin to me? You talkin to me? I don't see anyone else around, you must be talkin to me."

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Predator
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Report this Post02-27-2001 05:58 PM Click Here to See the Profile for PredatorClick Here to visit Predator's HomePageSend a Private Message to PredatorDirect Link to This Post
Hey, 1FST2M6
I think somebody has been watching Monty Python
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BENGAL4
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Report this Post02-27-2001 06:17 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BENGAL4Send a Private Message to BENGAL4Direct Link to This Post
Check this out, if you wan't to know the real truth about creation v/s evolution.

www.christiananswers.net/menu-ac1.html

If you want to know the TRUTH. Pick up the Bible and He is in there. From Genesis to Revelation. His name is Jesus. "I am the Truth and the Truth will set you free"

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p4n1c
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Report this Post02-27-2001 06:46 PM Click Here to See the Profile for p4n1cSend a Private Message to p4n1cDirect Link to This Post
I'm open to beliefs, I'm glad people have something to get them through the day, it's just that I hate people arguing over them. When it is their own right to believe in what they want. Why debate something you believe so strongly in? Someone's not going to agree and you can fight until you're blue in the face and nothing will be solved.

To quote a song, "...don't give a f*** if it's good enough for you, cuz I'm alive"

Please don't shove religon in my face, and don't shove scientific reasoning in my face. Just be happy to be alive..... And to have a Fiero. (I don't have one yet. )

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ray b
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Report this Post02-27-2001 07:11 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ray bSend a Private Message to ray bDirect Link to This Post
bengal4 thats a funny site, but where was the flat earth in the dead center of univerce page you think that it was riped out or what .
didn't see the instructions for witch burning what happened to them.
every one needs to see that site it is amazzing that they are so very wrong about every thing.
the PERSON you call JC was call ya-sho-wa=
joshua by his mom not jesus only one of the big errors in that book.
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DaRkLoRD
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Report this Post02-27-2001 08:00 PM Click Here to See the Profile for DaRkLoRDSend a Private Message to DaRkLoRDDirect Link to This Post
ray, just a small note.. while it might be true that joshua is another form of the name jesus, the being called "yahoweh" (or "yahweh", correct form is YH.WH) was god. not jesus..

minor detail, I know.

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Report this Post02-27-2001 08:11 PM Click Here to See the Profile for p4n1cSend a Private Message to p4n1cDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by DaRkLoRD:
ray, just a small note.. while it might be true that joshua is another form of the name jesus, the being called "yahoweh" (or "yahweh", correct form is YH.WH) was god. not jesus..

Again it doesn't matter, because someone could be wrong about that too. All this "evidence" and "fact" is subject to human error and interpretation. I could say he was called Jumpin' Jack and write it in some book, bury it for a couple hundred years where it's dug up and they think it's the truth and start worshiping and quoting Jumpin' Jack from my book.

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Cooter
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Report this Post02-27-2001 08:11 PM Click Here to See the Profile for CooterSend a Private Message to CooterDirect Link to This Post
I still think that there is natural selection and environmental factors in heredity, but I just don't have the faith to believe in evolution. It is harder for me to believe that everything came from nothing and life happened by chance than believe that there is a supreme being that knew what he was doing and had everything planned out for us.
Of course, these articles also show a viewpoint that supports the creationism view:

Researchers compared DNA from a Neanderthal skeleton found in Russia to an older sample tested in 1997. While the two Neanderthal samples turned out to be just 3.5 percent different from one another, they were roughly 7 percent different from DNA in modern humans.

Scientists consider that to be a substantial gap.

"It all points away from the Neanderthal," said one of the researchers, William Goodwin, a molecular biologist at the Human Identification Center in Glasgow, Scotland.

The researchers challenge the theory that modern humans evolved from Neanderthals, which some believe mated in large numbers with modern Europeans before disappearing 25,000 years ago.

If that had happened, some argue, today's Europeans would show stronger genetic similarities to Neanderthals than other humans do. Yet the latest DNA analysis shows Neanderthal DNA to be no closer to Europeans than to other modern humans.

As far as the earlier mentioned article, I found this lawsuit against its author very interesting:

For those of you not enamored of bioethics, Arthur Caplan is easily the most prominent bioethicist in the country. Personally I can't stand him because he's so inconsistent -- I think most bioethicists like to call it nonideological, but as far as I can tell there is no single ethical view that guides Caplan's thinking. He, and most other bioethicists, tend to be moral pragmatists who make it up as they go along.
That being said, the family of an 18-year old man who died during from a genetic engineering experiment have sued Caplan in the sort of legal action that could only occur in the United States.

Researchers originally planned to do the experiments on fatally ill babies under the theory that the babies were going to die anyway, and even if the gene therapy didn't work it wouldn't likely worsen the babies conditions. Caplan stepped in and said no way. First, by definition the babies can't consent, and second, the parents of babies with this particular genetic condition tend to be so grief stricken that they'll grab at any chance and so they can't really give consent (I agree with Caplan on the first part, but think the second part is the sort of noxious holier-than-thou moralizing common to the field).

So the researchers decided instead to only do the gene therapy experiments on consulting adults. Which brings us to the lawsuit. The lawsuit essentially claims that if Caplan had just kept his big mouth shut, the researchers would have used babies and there's no way this 18-year-old would have ever agreed to be in the study, and as a result he wouldn't have died. Therefore, Caplan is partially to blame for the young man's death.

The amusing thing about the lawsuit is that the lawsuit essentially turns the tables on Caplan and argues that the 18-year-old couldn't possibly have consented to the experiments. This is kind of fitting since Caplan and other bioethicists have done so much to undermine reasonable definitions of what it means to consent to a medical treatment.
Articles referenced: http://www.foxnews.com/science/032900/neanderthal.sml http://brian.carnell.com/articles/2000/09/000102.html

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ray b
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Report this Post02-27-2001 08:43 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ray bSend a Private Message to ray bDirect Link to This Post
yashowa is not jah-way or god but was the name Jc answered to his mom.modern prononcation of yashowa is joshua not jesus.
the name jesus is total mistranlation of the name that should be used.nobody was called jesus by anyone intill romans tried to write
the book in latin from greek and messed up the name in tranlation.
by the way 1 god or three ??
jah-way=elohim=god=lord=
but whatt is the holy ghosts name? casper
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Report this Post02-27-2001 10:08 PM   Send a Private Message to ray bDirect Link to This Post
I think ya'll just gave me a big ass headache
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Standard
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Report this Post02-28-2001 12:40 AM Click Here to See the Profile for StandardClick Here to visit Standard's HomePageSend a Private Message to StandardDirect Link to This Post
"one...two...five!"

("three, sir!")

"three!"

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LuckyTheyWereEverMade
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Report this Post02-28-2001 01:17 AM Click Here to See the Profile for LuckyTheyWereEverMadeClick Here to visit LuckyTheyWereEverMade's HomePageSend a Private Message to LuckyTheyWereEverMadeDirect Link to This Post
God did not write the bible or the new testament. So I think we can all agree that whatever is in those books was written by humans.

As others have pointed out, at the time people believed the world to be flat and left handedness to be evil. Ignorance can be dangerous! At many times in human history, any attempt to reason through these issues led to retaliation and torture.

I for one am glad to have the opportunity to challenge creationism in this Forum without fear of the Spanish inquisition.

Since we have agreed to disagree on this one . . . let's get back to what we know:

Fieros are charming to the point of being divine. That GM ever built such an innovative and beautiful car is undeniably a miracle! So, god must exist.

Amen.

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frontal lobe
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Report this Post02-28-2001 02:21 AM Click Here to See the Profile for frontal lobeSend a Private Message to frontal lobeDirect Link to This Post
I have been following this thread with a combination of interest and sadness. I would like to make just a few comments.

1. I had no worries that this thread would cause major problems, because we all survived the "religion" topic that was one of the first "totally O/T" topics and got over disagreements, and got on with the fun of the forum.

2. I guess I am surprised at the inconsistent standard of proof required for belief by both sides. For example, many of the people that have to SEE something to believe it probably believe that George Washington existed. Where's the proof? We weren't there. It's just written in a bunch of old books. How do we know it wasn't all just made up? (Just an example--I believe he existed and did what is said he did.)

3. I'm also surprised at the faith exercised by some members. "I believe a certain scientist's work, even though I've never seen their degree, seen their lab, looked at their research methodology or results, etc." I'm not expecting people to do it, but from some of the comments people have made, that is the level I expected it would take to make them believe. If it takes them that much proof to believe, why will they not visit the TYLENOL factory to see what is really going in the tablets before popping one in their mouth (or pick any medicine, food, etc). People exercise faith (dependence) every day with MUCH less proof than they are asking for to decide on one of the most basic questions of life.

4. General life principle: your preconceived point-of-view shapes your perception of "reality". Example: In a somewhat recent football thread several of us saw the same event of Tony Siragusa tackling Rich Gannon, but a Ravens fan's perception was different than several others because of his pre-event point-of-view.

That principle is why it is unlikely anyone's mind is going to be changed after this thread. Most are coming into it with a point-of-view already decided, so they are going to interpret anything through that filter.

5. I have had LOTS of years of science, formal education, etc. AND I have also read the Bible cover-to-cover somewhere between 15 and 20 times (lost track). I'm not going to join the debate for above mentioned reasons, but if anyone has not already made up their mind and would care to seriously consider what criteria I used to determine the Bible is true and therefore worthy of me using it to guide basic decisions of life, and guarantee of eternal life with God after death, I would be happy to communicate with you privately by e-mail or phone. But if you are looking for an argument or debate, then please don't bother because nothing would change and it's not worth the potential for hurt feelings.

6. I disagree with many forum members on many topics, not just this one, but I respect your right to choose how to live your life, express your opinions, etc. and greatly enjoy our interactions on the forum.

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Black88GT
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Report this Post02-28-2001 02:24 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Black88GTSend a Private Message to Black88GTDirect Link to This Post
Galen, just trying to decipher Mr. 130 IQ according to FL. (gee now there's a reliable source huh - see "Florida recounts") has give me a big a$$ headache! It's one thing to disagree with someone's religion, but to mock it is what I don't agree with. I find that in both sides of the argument, however it's mainly with the evolutionism group. I mean rayb, how many theology classes have you taken? Hell, how many ENGLISH classes have you taken? Give me a break, if your gonna try and show up here like your a protege of Darwin himself, atleast use just a hint of proper grammar. There is a lot of good arguments here, very intelligent posts which I am truly impressed by, but when I see your posts, I can't take them seriously.
The sentence structure doesn't make any sense, so trying to find the point in the whole thing is useless.

I have had Priests/Clergymen with master degrees from some of the best colleges in the world telling me that the modern bible is a very close translation, and then your telling me that the name Jesus is the wrong "tranlation" and I am supposed to buy that when translation isn't even spelled right?

ahh I tried to stay out but ...


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frontal lobe
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Report this Post02-28-2001 02:33 AM Click Here to See the Profile for frontal lobeSend a Private Message to frontal lobeDirect Link to This Post
Oh yeah, almost forgot. Best example of "blind faith": I just recently read that some forum members eat something called SCRAPPLE!!!!!!
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Phaeton
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Report this Post02-28-2001 03:39 AM Click Here to See the Profile for PhaetonSend a Private Message to PhaetonDirect Link to This Post
"blue! no! red"
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Report this Post02-28-2001 08:35 AM Click Here to See the Profile for btothSend a Private Message to btothDirect Link to This Post
I believe in Red, Blue isn't real. Oh, wait, I'm looking at Blue... doh. I give up.
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1FST2M6
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Report this Post02-28-2001 08:44 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 1FST2M6Click Here to visit 1FST2M6's HomePageSend a Private Message to 1FST2M6Direct Link to This Post
thats Standard!


yeah Donald John Clease and Eric Idol are my Gods!

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stimpy
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Report this Post02-28-2001 08:44 AM Click Here to See the Profile for stimpySend a Private Message to stimpyDirect Link to This Post
Black88GT, hehe, I'm just amazed that rabies doesn't think that Mensa is a womans monthly time. And they said Lyndon LaRouche was dead!
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p4n1c
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Report this Post02-28-2001 08:52 AM Click Here to See the Profile for p4n1cSend a Private Message to p4n1cDirect Link to This Post
Frontal, you're talking about a hundred or so years ago, this topic spans to a few billion years for evolutionism and a couple thousand years for creationism. Translation for that span of time can be lost and/or greatly exaggerated in retrospect of a couple hundred years.

A friend of mine was not religous per se, but he studied religons and he was talking to me about more than a few inconsistencies that exist in the bible in regards to the writings in the book that it was translated from. One point that I can remember was the parting of the sea when it was actually the parting of some reeds in a marsh. I'm not saying that he was right, my point is that interpretation by ones own view and exaggeration are human traits that come into account for any subject.

I have read the bible, I don't remember passages or anything like that, nor am I educated enough to be in a debate about it. I just know I read it and put it away.

This subject itself is one that should be just left alone. To each their own.

The last 3 words I have for this thread are:

yvan eht nioj

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stimpy
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Report this Post02-28-2001 10:39 AM Click Here to See the Profile for stimpySend a Private Message to stimpyDirect Link to This Post
Party Posse rulez!
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Galen
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Report this Post02-28-2001 11:44 AM   Send a Private Message to stimpyDirect Link to This Post
Black88GT, Dork whats up? hehe.. creationism is the 3.4, and that Evolution one is the 3.8, which is better?
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Tigger
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Report this Post02-28-2001 12:20 PM Click Here to See the Profile for TiggerSend a Private Message to TiggerDirect Link to This Post
So... What came first, the chicken or the egg?
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btoth
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Report this Post02-28-2001 12:30 PM Click Here to See the Profile for btothSend a Private Message to btothDirect Link to This Post
Neither, the chicken evolved from something else.
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Report this Post02-28-2001 04:54 PM Click Here to See the Profile for sqoachSend a Private Message to sqoachDirect Link to This Post
um...it's cold outside.
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1FST2M6
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Report this Post02-28-2001 04:59 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 1FST2M6Click Here to visit 1FST2M6's HomePageSend a Private Message to 1FST2M6Direct Link to This Post
no it's not it's partly cloudy and 68*!


"...i came here for a good argument and all your doing is contradicting me... ! "

[This message has been edited by 1FST2M6 (edited 02-28-2001).]

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Report this Post02-28-2001 05:37 PM Click Here to See the Profile for beer_stud_21Click Here to visit beer_stud_21's HomePageSend a Private Message to beer_stud_21Direct Link to This Post
If anyone is reading the end of this 110 post topic here are my feelings on the subject: Anyone who believes in creationism needs to take an astronomy class and a archaeology class. I'm taking both these in college this term and the combination of the two give a pretty good argument for evolution. Now some random statements:

1) The bible is said to date the beginning of the earth to roughly 4000BC. Uranium 1)(i believe) dating places the oldest rocks on both the earth and the moon at roughly 3.3Billion yrs. I know ppl will say the science cant be trusted, but its a fairly simple process. Just compare the ratio of uranium to lead you have in a given rock and since we know how fast unranium breaks down we know how longs its been since the rock was created.

2) There is also some good evidence that we (Homo sapien sapien) did in fact evolve from primates. And to the person who said that we havn't evolved at all in historic time..... Well, without taking the lords name is vein... historic time is pretty damn short. If the bible is said to record back to 4000BC then we have roughly 6000yrs of recorded history.. There are 100,000 yr old human skelitons found is south africa that are in every way just like you and me. That would mean we are essentually unchanged for the last 100,000 yrs. But thats not to say we could not evolve somewhat in the next say 500k-1million yrs.

3) I dont believe in religion because #1 its so hypicritical. In the bible is says to be kind to thy neibor but yet the palesteniens and isrelis have been fighting over jerusulem for how long?

I will stop now.. anybody want to send me a comment will have to icq or e-mail me.. I dont think im going to read this thread anymore...

icq and e-mail are in my info.
-Marlin

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Galen
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Report this Post02-28-2001 08:14 PM   Send a Private Message to beer_stud_21Direct Link to This Post
tired of ya'll doing that, giving me a bloody headache... I'm a simple carolina man.. Keep it simple.
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Phaeton
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Report this Post02-28-2001 09:31 PM Click Here to See the Profile for PhaetonSend a Private Message to PhaetonDirect Link to This Post
Either or. Either or.
I'm gonna hold my breath until I turn blue or somebody gives a third choice.

j/k I don't give a rat unless I'm scheduled as the sacrifice.

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ray b
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Report this Post02-28-2001 09:43 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ray bSend a Private Message to ray bDirect Link to This Post
reading list
greek or russian bible in english translation
science news weekly mag
scientific american monthly mag
holy blood holy grail
rise and fall of the roman empire
red pink gray and black bible to see what was added by who,why,and when to the bible
by the way it is by harvard and oxford divinty schools.
life of christ by gore vidal
please don't stop at one source like the thumpers do, keep looking and learning.
sorry I don't type or spell well. I had a secretary when I was a office tipe just like I planed in school.
it is very nessary to ridicuie thumpers and their dupes as they are dangerous to your freedom.remember every one of the victoms of the bible thumpers in their long history or you maybe next.
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DRH
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Report this Post03-01-2001 12:04 AM Click Here to See the Profile for DRHSend a Private Message to DRHDirect Link to This Post
Religion and it's code of ethics is what originally separated us from the animals. Chimps don't have religion... they don't have a rule that says thou shalt not kill either...

Most religions have some very good value systems. Most of the problems come from people using the name of a religion to justify their own agenda.

I actually think science is a bigger threat to personal freedom than religion these days. Survellance technology has given the government the means to pry into private affairs to a degree that even the most zealous religious leader could only dream about.

Also... how long until all this DNA research starts getting used on people without their permission for the 'good of humanity'?

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Phaeton
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Report this Post03-01-2001 02:14 AM Click Here to See the Profile for PhaetonSend a Private Message to PhaetonDirect Link to This Post
I remember thumper saying "if you can't say something nice don't say anything at all".

Sorry, when it's a slow day in the tech section I get to spend too much time over here.

I'm enjoying this immensely. I did not expect a reasoned discussion on the positive ramifications of the conflict, and I've been entertained by the self depreciating caricatures of genuine belief systems both pro and con. Deliberately overstated for the sake of humor I am sure.

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btoth
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Report this Post03-01-2001 12:23 PM Click Here to See the Profile for btothSend a Private Message to btothDirect Link to This Post
Hey, stop using big words. j/k

My view: Somewhere a long, long time ago an alien race decided to try a science experiment by creating some new forms of life on another planet (Earth). They then left and since then, these plants and animals (or whatever they where) developed and natural selection and evolution took over to get us to where we are today.
(I must be watching too much X-Files. )

[This message has been edited by btoth (edited 03-01-2001).]

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JohnnyK
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Report this Post03-02-2001 02:40 PM Click Here to See the Profile for JohnnyKSend a Private Message to JohnnyKDirect Link to This Post
My views: As we become more advanced, science will soon prove that god never existed, and was only created to make some people feel better. What religious groups will have to say then, I can only imagine.
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ray b
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Report this Post03-03-2001 01:42 AM Click Here to See the Profile for ray bSend a Private Message to ray bDirect Link to This Post
creation 12
evolution 13
don't care 5
is it 2001 or 1901?
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