ray, there you go again. Human evolution a proven fact?! Was I asleep in class the day the 45 billion year old man was there? If evolution was indeed a proven fact, I think that would come as a surprise to the scientific community. Pray, tell, who was the scholar that made this breakthrough? Or did your dog tell you about this one too?

Nah, I'm good with sharp objects.. It is a depressing way to look at life, but slowly things are looking up (Well, there are huge downs too, but still). It just pisses me off that I should have had a perfect life (lots of money, good family, good home, etc) but for some reason it just didn't go as planned. For some reason I still felt like absolute crap for years and years. (Picture the worst you've ever felt, and multiply it by 10x. Then my best buddy died.. That was a kick in the pants.

The one thing you will always be able to count on down here on earth is that things very rarely go to plan. Believe me when I tell you that I know depths of despair in life. I don't want to seem like I am diminishing your pain in any way, but just to tell you that I have been able to draw comfort that there is some divine purpose to evry event. It may be years before you realize in hindsight what the reason for tragedy in your life might be. You may never find the reasons. But the chances of accepting are much better when you do have an open mind and some degree of faith in the future.

hmm.. i'm hungry. Anybody else wanna roast some hot dogs with me? Got plenty of flames...

I'm a science guy, and of course I believe in evolution. Creation just doesn't work for me. You say evolution is a one in a hundred billion zillion chance... go out a look up at the sky.. billions of suns, each with who-knows-how-many planets circling them. I'd say it's a pretty good chance that something was gonna happen on one of the planets. And we've also had 4 billion years to evolve.. just try to imagine how long that is.

I do believe that most of the events written in the bible are true. Just people keeping a written account of what happened, and looking for ways to explain things that they couldn't understand.

I highly recommend reading a book called The Cosmic Connection, by Carl Sagan. I'm reading it now. Lot's of food for thought.

all IMHO

opinions, opinions.

i don't know much to say here. i go to church, but that doesn't mean anything. i get bored there and about fall asleep. i doubt that everything in the bible is true. but i don't know this. it's a book of belief. but of course there are many books of belief. to say who is right, who knows. sure people can say their way is right and that everyone should believe. but why? what was the point for us to be on this earth? to live? to die? to have faith? if God knows all, then he knows who is going to just live here on earth, and who is going to have faith.
so what happens when you die? heaven or hell seems the only two ways. or, you just die.
so, why aren't we all just in heaven to begin with? is living a test of our faith? if God knows where we're going, why are we here to test that faith or non-faith?

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sqoach@yahoo.com

84 SE (project car?)
85 Coupe (parts car)
86 SC (daily driver)

I wanted to stay away from this topic, but I can't. IMHO, it takes more faith to beleive that we just happened, not that we were created in the Creators image.

Evolution is THEORY. It has been taught as fact for the last 70 years in this country. Evolution has not proved anything. Remember the name Nebraska man. They found a tooth on the prarie, and made a whole species of early man from it. Problem was, it was the tooth of an extinct pig. In the late 1800's, there was a skull found that they said proved evolution. They paraded it around Europe and it swayed allot of people. Come to find out, it was a human skull with the jaws of an ape. I have seen fabrications in our own Natural history museum here. They show models of reptiles growing feathers. BUNK.

As for creation, it screams to us every day. Just take a look outside, nature, animals, our very existance is the evidence. I don't claim to have all the answers, but my heart knows that there is a God.

JohnnyK, I am sorry that your freind passed away. I myself, buried my wife and a life long freind within a week of each other this past summer. God did not cause their deaths. I know that He does not sit above us saying, you die and you live. I have had a peace through out this whole ordeal. I know my wife is in His presence right now. That is the only thing that has helped me through this.

Bill

Hey Stimp,
I believe his name was Darwin. I am a christian, but believe in evolution. To say that it isn't so is to assume that the total theory of science is void.

Waa.. Waaa....
Don't cry about your lives.
Your weren't born in Malaysia and sold into sexual slavery in the Gaza strip at age 5. Raised every day being beaten bloody and gang raped. Then by some miracle survived until the age of 14 to be left homeless and without clothes. I needn't go on.
Count your blessings.

The bible wasn't written until about 200 years after jesus was here. Ya think the story might have got distorted a little?

On a timelime of humans why did Jesus just happen to show up in the 99th of 100 moments?

Father, Son, Holy Spirit? Do you know what Patriarchy is? Its reprocussions?

The only reason we even know about Jesus Christ is because his believers murdered and conquered more people to spread their religion.

The beginning of it all matter was something called a quantum fluxuation. Matter/Anti-matter... who cares? You still have to go to work in the morning and wash your hair.

I love god. That doesn't mean that I have to worship some idol my culture tells me to.

Puttin on the gloves.....

you schooling is the problem stimpy if bible thumpers run it. most know about DNA and how decent can be traced and timed,as to when we started and from what.it is all in the code just as differance in monkey DNA and mans.mitocondrila DNA [only from mom]rate of change is known and used to study when,different,specie devert .
you can beleve what ever you want, but things that kill over 1,000,000,000 people can't tell me how moral they are like the christians love to do.try reading scientific
american and not religious tracks if you want to know the truth .their error free bible got JC's name wrong and story of lazarus was the one found in egyptan tomb
but was written 1000 years before JC,s time.
not exodus no record of that found they don't even name the pharaoh and none ever dround in red or any other sea.

Bengal: I am very sorry about your huge loss. How you've managed to handle it is beyond me actually.

Anyways, as I was going to say, this is what doesn't do it for me. There is some guy in the sky who loves you unconditionally, BUT, if you do something wrong, he'll send you to a place of burning, eternal hell.. Sounds like love to me.

I read my reply and hope no-one took that the wrong way. I don't mean to say that any of our lives are any easier than anyone elses/

I feel very sorry for all our lost loved ones.

We must look beyond life and see death of our loved ones as a happy beginning in the heavens.

I hurt as much as any man. The only thing we have is Faith. Without it we are lost.

a couple points that i forgot in my previous rant......

first off, if we could understand the ways of God, we would probably either be God ourself, or be dead. I don't think that humans can possibly understand the ways of God, because we are very different.

Second... we tend to forget with everything that we do in today's society that we are right and that we are so smart. This applies to everything, not just the debate at hand. I'd bet money that the Nazi's thought that they were right to kill Jews. Americans thought that they were right in putting the Japanese in concentration camps during wwII. Yada Yada Yada.... All I'm saying is that we need to take things that seem to be "revolutionary" such as DNA and other technology stuff with a grain of salt. Chances are, that we're wrong on a lot of things. I think it was a Woody Allen movie where he goes to the future and finds out that smoking cigaretts is actually good for you.

Just some more food for thought

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Fuzz busters are for those who can't outrun the cops.

AIM: phool88fiero

I say believe what you want (unless it interferes with your daily lives. And trust me, YOU can't tell. Someone else has to tell you. Even then you will ignore them). But don't come crying to me when you die and everything goes black and that is that.

Just a few thoughts..

I'm somewhere in the middle of these arguments.. I'm minoring in Biotechnology, so I favor evolutionism over creationism of course. That doesn't mean I'm an athiest though. There's a lot of crazy stuff going on that I don't believe science can currently explain, stuff that is somewhere between "paranormal" and spiritual. I don't go to church, I don't read the bible regularly (though I have studied many of the stories of the old testament for their historical value) and I was very angered that I was punished for refusing to take part in religious readings at my high school (a small town PUBLIC school..) I've lied to people before, I have several gigs of pirated MP3s.. I've told my parents to shut up at several times when I was younger.. I've cheated on tests before too. and, if the life of a loved one was in danger, I don't think I'd have much of a problem attacking and killing someone. I also want to clone myself someday, and also have genetically engineered kids. Yet I don't believe for one second that I'm going to hell..

why? because I make mistakes, along with every other human. I usually try to do what I think is morally right.. I feel guilty when I'm sick or when I sleep in and miss class.. Not because I'll get marks taken off, but because I felt like I was somehow letting the professor down by not being there to hear their lesson. I get depressed when I think of all the people suffering in the world, especially children, and realizing there isn't a damn thing I can do to help any of them right now.. I complain about my 3 year old computer being too slow, how it can't render 3D scenes fast enough or how Photoshop takes up too much memory.. then I stop and realize how selfish I am. I'm feeling sorry for myself because my computer, which my parents bought for me as an 18th birthday present, isn't good enough... and yet there are kids dying of starvation, being beaten, used as slaves, etc. I almost feel as if I don't deserve what I have because I've done nothing to deserve it. I was born into a family that has provided almost everything for me.. I believe I chose this. I don't think heaven is just a place we go after we die. I think it's our true home, and the time we spend in this dimension is to learn and spiritually evolve (or progress, for those who don't like the term used in this sense) I believe in reincarnation, btw. I don't know why this happens, or what the outcome is. That's the true meaning of life.. I believe science can eventually explain everything that happens within this dimension, and even theorize about higher dimensions.. but while we're in this dimension.. I don't think we can begin to really understand the nature of existance, or even contemplate the reason WHY this all exists, if it does indeed have one. I don't go to church, I have broken some of the 10 commandments, yet I try to be a good person. I try to treat people the way I want to be treated, and don't go out of my way to be mean or unfair.. and if I do act that way, then I've probably had a bad day or that person has done something to hurt me in some way, and I was responding with "lower" emotions like anger.

To make a (very) long story short.. there is adequate proof in the human genome that we did evolve from prior life forms.. we might have had some help along the way, but I don't believe it was anything divine.. extraterrestrials, perhaps. but not whatever being created the universe.. I don't know what caused the big bang. the bible stated that god declared "let there be light" and suddenly there was light.. I might have the context wrong. My point is, I believe science can explain most of the stuff that happens.. eventually.. but there are some things they can't explain, because they can't be tested or examined or re-produced in a lab.. and those things are left up to you. Not a book to tell you exactly what to believe, not a person telling you what to believe, and certainly not someone telling you that you will be punished if you don't believe the stuff. Your beliefs should come from your heart. In the end we'll all discover who's right and who was wrong, but by then it won't matter. Science has got a lot of things wrong in the past, and so has religion. Neither is perfect, and neither is 100% correct..

which is why I'm in the middle.

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steve@fieroproject.com
http://www.fieroproject.com

A couple more cents from me... The general consensus among religion seems to be that failure to believe in Jesus/God is basically securing your fate in Hell. I feel that I'm a genuinely decent person. I try to go out of my way to help people that need it, I don't harm animals, etc... I know so-called Christians that are completely the opposite. The bible says that these people can ask for forgiveness for the hurt they've caused and still go to heaven. I feel that if God would put me in Hell for simply NOT believing in him, he's not a God that I could ever take into my life. I know there's plenty of good christians, but I've also seen my share of christians who use it as a crutch. I was born and raised a Christian and I left it when I was about 14 years old because I realized that I never really believed any of it in my heart. But that's just me....

GT Bastard...there's bit more to it than just that, but I'm trying to stay out of this as much as I possibly can.

quote Originally posted by 151 in. of love: Hey Stimp, I believe his name was Darwin. I am a christian, but believe in evolution. To say that it isn't so is to assume that the total theory of science is void. Darwin had a theory which he supported in his book, that species will adapt to suit their environment. I've got no problem with that. But to say that Darwins theor proves irrenconcilibly that all being came from nothingness without divine assistance is a jump. I've been watching the Westminster Kennel Club show on cable lately. I can't tell you the countless breeds that even 200 years ago did not exist. Does that prove evolution? nooo... Those are still dogs, just like all the animals that Darwin found on the Galapagos fall neatly into existing phylum. i.e., the marine iguana is still an iguana. It just knows how to swim. Waa.. Waaa.... Don't cry about your lives. Your weren't born in Malaysia and sold into sexual slavery in the Gaza strip at age 5. Raised every day being beaten bloody and gang raped. Then by some miracle survived until the age of 14 to be left homeless and without clothes. I needn't go on. Wow, sounds like you had a real rough go at it growing up. I'm glad you were able to move on. That certainly diminshes the pain I had growing up with a mentally ill sibling, holding his slit wrists together on the way to the hospital at when I was 15, watching him mutilate himself over the years, staying up all night in emergency rooms during countless intentional overdoses, and finally loosing him just 2 weeks after his 28th birthday. At least I was never born in Malaysia like you. Count your blessings. I do. I survived te madness and I am a far stronger person. I also take comfort in my belief that someday I will be one with the love my brother possessed. And I never got gang-raped and sold into slavery to make Nike shoes like you did. The bible wasn't written until about 200 years after jesus was here. Ya think the story might have got distorted a little? As if this red herring has ANYTHING to do with the question at hand, the Old Testament was written far before the birth of Christ. It is from there that those of Judeo-Christian belef acquire the Creation story. Obviously, it was much longer then 200 years from the creation of man to the writing of Genesis 1:1. Is the account fabled? I would bet on it. But just because Eve was never really tempted by a talking serpant,does that eliminate the whole prospect of the existance of a divine creator? Kind of a jump there. On a timelime of humans why did Jesus just happen to show up in the 99th of 100 moments? Again, totally irrelevant to this debate. Father, Son, Holy Spirit? Do you know what Patriarchy is? Its reprocussions? Yes I know the meaning of the word Patriarchy- rule by father. Do you know what an incomplete sentance is? The only reason we even know about Jesus Christ is because his believers murdered and conquered more people to spread their religion. So far off the subject now, I have totally lost the point you were getting at. Was it that people in medieval times were peaceful, gentle people before they heard about Christ? Or did Jerry Falwell unload the clip on a bus of Hindus and I didn't hear about it? The beginning of it all matter was something called a quantum fluxuation. Matter/Anti-matter... who cares? You still have to go to work in the morning and wash your hair. I love god. That doesn't mean that I have to worship some idol my culture tells me to. I'm sorry, are you still talking? You lost me a looong time ago. Hopefully someone educated ahose opinion I respect will come along and decode your inane blatherings. Puttin on the gloves...

Smackin my b!tch up...

Love stimpy

Stimpy: Down boy.. Retract those claws.. Chill..
I never said I was an aetheist. I used to believe, and even defend god, but since I've met some of these "christians", i've lost all respect. "Their" god doesn't sound like anything I'd let into my life. He sounds like an arrogant, selfish, bastard. Maybe the real god is different, I couldn't tell you. But all I know is, if some of these people who claim to love "god", and follow his every will, etc, etc, could see themselves from someones elses view, they are basically throwing their lives away, giving all their money to him, etc, etc. "We didn't build any of this, you did, oh great one!". Etc.. I'm done again.

Here is what I believe. First off I would never criticize anyone else’s belief. That is what America is all about. I believe in an after life, and honestly I don’t see why creation and evolution can’t work together. God does things in mysterious ways right? Don’t take the Bible word for word, but as a guideline. If you were immortal 7 days could be 7 billion years to us. Why couldn’t God have gotten the ball rolling, and let nature, which he would have created take its course. Us aside several creatures have evolved to their environments. One reason humans have not changed over the years is we change the environment to suit us. We don’t change to suit the environment. That is a good and bad difference we have compared to the other animals. I am really not that big on organized religion, and I don’t like to be preached to about what I should and should not believe. Everyone is entitled to believe the way they wish, and I don’t feel that I will burn in h*ll for it. The universe is a big place, and it has been proven that there are other planets with an orbit similar to ours. If you want to believe that our little planet is the only one capable of sustaining life then that’s cool, but I can’t see out of all the stars out there that one planet in all the billion of solar systems is the only place that has life. I am not a UFO nut either. I believe in life on other planets, but I am not a big believer in UFO’s. I think that if we live what we believe to be right then all is well. Well that’s my .02 cents worth.

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stimpy ,you think like a cartoon figure.
but I notice that you didn't talk about my numbers of dead that the christian caused over their history.bible quote[not by their words but by their deeds you will know them].
just as christians willnot allow a witch to live nor will they allow others to have different belief. what happened to nonchristians thru out history they were killed if they didn't convert.
what schools need to teach is real history of the christians and not cover up all their crimes.maybe this will slow down their killing .
antioch a large city in turkey called first city of christ was sacked by other christians
and every one in it was killed in reglious war.1,000,000 killed
avinyon a sect call the cathars call heritic was wiped out by roman cathlic troops in south of france over 1,000,000 killed.
thats just 2 of the A's want more????
point is christians are a danger to all others and have no morals.
DNA is fact not belief can be used to do usefull things like save lives.and is a form of history in its records of the past.

quote Originally posted by ray b: stimpy ,you think like a cartoon figure. but I notice that you didn't talk about my numbers of dead that the christian caused over their history.bible quote[not by their words but by their deeds you will know them]. ray, I try not to be too harsh on you because I suspect that you have some kind of learning disability that keeps you from being able to communicate a coherent thought in written form. I don't know if it's all the acid you took in the seveties or what, but I try to cut you some slack. But to see you criticize my thought processes, homie, you ain't even in my league. just as christians willnot allow a witch to live nor will they allow others to have different belief. what happened to nonchristians thru out history they were killed if they didn't convert. I consider myself a man of faith, not a "Christian". I think the mystery of life is a universal question, and I believe that whatever God is, it has love for those who seek him, no matter what path they chose. That being said, I was raised in the Southern Baptist church. About as narrow minded and fundementalist as they get. But in all the time I attended that church, not once did I see a witch get burned at the stake. However, I did learn how Jesus would break bread with prostitutes and tax collectors. How Jesus said "Let he among you who is without sin cast the fist stone." what schools need to teach is real history of the christians and not cover up all their crimes.maybe this will slow down their killing . antioch a large city in turkey called first city of christ was sacked by other christians and every one in it was killed in reglious war.1,000,000 killed avinyon a sect call the cathars call heritic was wiped out by roman cathlic troops in south of france over 1,000,000 killed. thats just 2 of the A's want more???? You know, I actually did learn about the crusades and the holy inquisition in school. I had the opportunity to be schooled in Europe, where I had the opportunity to see devices of torture and know exactly what they were used for. However, in every part of the world there has been a warrior caste. When atrocities are commited, man will always look to a higher cause to justify their human behavior. Jesus never told us to kill. point is christians are a danger to all others and have no morals. You know ray, in the Viet Nam war, villages of women and children were killed in massacres. Does that make every U.S. serviceman a barbaric criminal with no morals and a danger to all others? These things were done in the name of patriotism. Is every U.S. citizen a danger to others? DNA is fact not belief can be used to do usefull things like save lives.and is a form of history in its records of the past.

Who among us has denied the existence of DNA? I don't know where you are getting this stuff. From your writings I doubt your literacy is at a functional level. Whoever is reading this to you is losing more then a little in its interpretation. I suggest you just reload the bong, put some Jerry on the turntable and leave the complex subject matter to those with the majority of their brain cells left. You are dismissed!

Steve- I am still wondering about the adaquate proof in our DNA that we evolved from lower forms of life. I have been searching the internet and have not found this yet. Do you have a link to the article, I would like to read it and forward it to some friends.

Thanks-
Greg

you lived in europe but didn't notice german
speed laws?
DNA is the main way prove that evolution is real as it is the record of how it went down
and can be read now and more will come out of this soon to prevent ills in future.
atacks on others is the way that christian work in drug lies, as belief in value of drugs is seen as threat to christian domination.but there is long history of drugs and shamans.
by the way my IQ was tested by the state of fl. and was 130 after all the drugs and rock&roll.I qualify for both mensa and mayflower society membership or do okie's know what that means.both my kids where in gifted classes at school.more evendence DNA works.

Yes, ray I do know what Mensa and The Mayflower Society are. I am highly skeptical of whatever testing "methods" were used to establish your alleged I.Q. (which ain't all that impressive) and the Mayflower thing just means your ancestors gave the Native Americans syphillis and stole their land. It certainly doesn't make you an imposing intellectual figure.

As far as my "okie" street credibility goes, I am proud to be a resident of the state of Oklahoma. The way people treat their fellow man in times of need (i.e. April 19, 1995 and May 5 1999) is a true testament to the goodness of humanity. However, I am not an Oklahoma native, having lived the majority of my life in San Jose, CA. Moral of this story? Don't pretend to know me. You think you know, but you have no idea.

quote Originally posted by ray b: point is christians are a danger to all others and have no morals.

In that case, no one come near me. Apparently I'm an immoral freak who's libel to kill you.

In all honesty, no one claims that Christians in history have been perfect. Plenty of people claim to be Christians. That doesn't mean they are. Focusing on the history is not going to change anything today. Maybe things are different today. Maybe not, I don't know. But I do know that it is wrong to stereotype. Pretty good for someone with no morals, huh?

Cooter, I posted the link on the first page of this topic.

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steve@fieroproject.com
http://www.fieroproject.com

Maybe both are true to a degree. Maybe our evolution had a helping hand at some key points. Maybe our destiny as a species is to provide that same helping hand somewhere else thus ensuring our legacy (heaven) or destroy ourselves (hell).

What's so hard about believing a creator caused a great sleep to fall over a man, removed a rib, and created a woman??? That could be describing a variation on cloning that WE could do in a few more years once we really figure out this DNA thing.

Man, a rib doesn't come flying out of some guy and morph into a women.

I believe that's one of the many translation errors. Wouldn't surprise me if the text originally meant that some genetic material was taken and a female was engineered.. if a being can will an entire universe into existance, why would he need to take something out of another creation to make the next one? Wwould he need to clone a human female at all? why not just will them into existance the same as everything else? Food for thought..

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steve@fieroproject.com
http://www.fieroproject.com

In the beginning GM created the Fiero.

Then for each Fiero depending on its environment evolved (maybe with a lot of help from not its creator, but its owner) into what it needed to be in order to survive in its environment.

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SCCA Region 72
#47 CSP

Our lady of blessed acceleration dont fail me now!

Friends,

Many of you know that I dislike arguments and typically shy away from them. That said, I would like to lend my "engineer's outlook" on a theme that has surfaced and resurfaced in this thread. My post is not intended to be a persuasive post, merely an attempt to clear up some misconceptions.

You can quote me on this... "humans are human". There you have it. That is all you need to know to sum up everything that we have done during out existance on this planet. We as human are known and understood to be far from perfect.

The question should be asked, "What separates man from animals?" The one trait that is often pointed to as what differentiates us from animals is our complex ability to process thoghts. This ability gives man great freedom. There is more to our life than survival, more than instinct.

My argument is that our ability to reason is what has both made man great in his accomplishments and the worst organism to ever walk, fly, swim, ooze or otherwise traverse the earth. Many of our technological and humanitarian work can be sited as a good example of what we can accomplish with our ability to think. The nightly news and history books are an excellent example of how this ability is the most detrimental thing ever to come to this planet. They key lies in how one uses ones' ability to reason.

It is important to understand that the Crusades were not the work of God. He did not travel the earth and dessimate people and cities during the Crusades. This was a work of the religion of the time, claimed to be done for the work of God.

The confusion stems from the fact that most folks equate religious groups with God. Therefore, their reasoning typically is similar to the following: "If the Catholic Church was created to follow the teachings of God, then everything they have done was the will of God." This could not be further from the truth. Each and every human is a mess. We screw up more often than we do good. Imagine yourself as the leader of the largest organized group in the world. Do you think that you would only make right decisions? Do you think that you would be immune to curruption, money and power? This is precisely what happened during the tims of the Crusades.

For further insight into the Crusades, one must first examine the history and culture of their place of origin. As all of you know, the Crusades originated mostly from Western Europe. It is a proven fact that the Catholic church of the time, was not much of a church at all. It was more of a caste system. Those that were officers in the church were often officers in the government. Religious leaders of the day were from the upper crust of society and accumulated Many of the religious men of the day were greedy, corrupt and blood thirsty. These are all byproducts of being able to think and reason.

The organized church has always had problems. I imagine that most everone is familiar with the term sodomy. Historically speaking, that term can be traced back to biblical times. Sodom and Gamora was the location of one of the original 7 churches. This particular church swayed from the worship of God and becan to worship human sexuality. God himself stepped in to rectify the situation. Notice that God did not screw up, he is not in control of us... that $%#^ ability to reason is what messed up Sodom and Gamora. Honestly think about what most folks think about church compared to their thoughts on sex. Wouldn't it be simple to begin a church devoted to worshiping sex?

Many of my references to the Catholic Church in this post shall be understood to be the Christian Church prior to Protestant Religion. Other than through history, they have little to no link to the current Catholic Church. I am not of the Catholic faith specifically; however, have made an attempt to represent them correct historically.

The following paragraphs address the many comments similar to the following: "My neighbor Bob turned me off of religion. he killed lots of small animals unecessarily and yelled scripture to me, when my stickball went through his window in 1968." Please note that God is not the one that has turned anyone from religion, it has been those that have chosen to attempt to follow him. Just chalk this one up to that ability to think and reason again.

The Christian doctorine (Bible) encourages evangelism. Evangelism is defined by Merriam-Webster's Collegate dictionary as follows: 1 : the winning or revival of personal commitments to Christ
2 : militant or crusading zeal.

Re-read the first definition. Kind of vague isn't it? Although Christians are encouraged to win and revive personal commitments to Christ, specific directions are not outlined for Christians to follow.

Although most evangelists intend well, they are the group that bears the most responsiblility for turning others away from religion. I dispise the Christian channel on cable and believe that it is a travesty to Christians everywhere for this very reason. On the other hand, I am certain that many rely on that channel for inspiration or the ability to make it through another day and for that reason, I just program my TV around it ;~)

Many Christians NOW (this is a recent movement within the church) believe that following the example of Christ is the best form of evangelism. As was mentioned before, during the days of Christ, he hung out with fishermen, prostitutes and tax collectors. By todays standards that would equate to motorcycle gangs of the 70's, well prostitutes haven't changed... oldest profession, and IRS agents. He led by example, not by aggression and harsh lessons. He was the type of person that had a magnetic personality. People either liked him or feared him. Those in power feared him and convinced many of their subjects to denounce him. Most folks were attracted to him as a person. Can you imagine leaving your job to devote your life to any person you have met?

Also remember, Christ did NOT associate himself with the religious leaders of his day, in fact, he denounced them. Which is precisely what got him into trouble.

In summary, I have attempted to clear up the misconception that God should be blamed for the Crusades and those trying to spread his word. Moreover, I could sum up everything that I have said into one sentence. Do not blame God for our human screw-ups.

I guess that is my about ninety-seven cents worth...Thank You and have a Good Night,

William T. Thorn, III

hey now, no oklahoma bashing. i've lived here for over 8 years and this state isn't as bad as i thought. sure where i live there isn't much to do, but this state is fun. and besides, where you live has nothing to do with how smart or stupid you are.

WT3: Way to go. People are far too quick to blame God for what other people do.

Other musings:

The universe may not be 12-15 billion years old, as was previously thought. Hubble Space Telescope took an image after a servicing. It was a ten day exposure of a region that was a "dead zone" in space, but it was just a test. The resultant image showed galaxies that were clearly 15-20 billion light years away, however, scientists have tried to explain this away as "small, energetic objects" never before seen....

(Different musing) According to the generally accepted models (Not like Tyra Banks....), there was *nothing* outside of the pointsource of the big bang. Nothing, as in no vacuum, no time, no space, no void, no infinite anything, just nothing. No existence.

(Next): Big Bang came from observed redshift of galaxies. As things that emit light move away from us, their light shifts red, as seen through a prism. On the other hand, this shift could be due to simple decay of photons. But that wouldn't fit with the accepted models (Elizabeth Hurley?).

(Next): Big Bang cosmology does away with conservation of energy, an otherwise unbreakable law of physics....

(Next): All I have to do is look in the eye of my little girl (10 Months old! Where does the time go?) to see God's work. My DNA could only go so far. I'm not this good.

(Next): To bring up Job again, I daresay that God has this kind of active interest in everyone's life, whether they want it or not. As I understand it, everyone is given the choice to believe or not, and everyone is given a certain quantity of information to reason for themselves. It's what they do with these "talents" that ultimately decides their fate. Jesus said that there is only one unforgivable sin, and that's blasphemy. Be angry with Him, or whatever, you can always go back. It's your choice what happens to you. Not His. Not mine.

(Next): Reincarnation doesn't fit in either world view. Either you get one chance for Heaven or Hell, or you're, as was previously stated, "worm food."

(Next): If you believe in God, but your god can't say, "Let there be light!" and light happens, then how small is your god? Why can't your god make a universe in six days? Why does a 'yom' (Hebrew for "Day") not have to be 23H56m4s long? Maybe He didn't mean it literally, but the Bible is specific about when it is allegorical. He guided the men and women to write the books, and He could have said to Moses on the mount, "About this "day" thing...."

That's it for now. The wife needs the phone line. :-)

Here is somehting to wrap your minds around, its kinda weird to think about.

Science describes everything comming from a "big bang." Also, the universe will only expand so far before gravity eventually pulls everyting back into the mass it was started from. Well... if science is right and the big bang did happen, how many times do you suppose its happened? If everything ends up back in the middle and it collapses again and goes bang, it could very well have happened an infinite number of times already. Heres where I get confused. What or Who made the big bang, where did it come from? Is it just there or did a god put it there? I find it hard to believe the earth was made in 6 days, but if there was a big bang, where did it come from? I get in this discussion with my girlfriend all the time and we always end up nowhere... neither one of can disprove the other and it makes for a good debate.
I do believe in evolution, as time progressed more advanced and complex species have emerged. Its been "proven" in the fossil record that evolution is a fact of life and it is happening right now, but its not instantanious. Humans have evolved from lower forms of primates, just like the diagrams you see with the small primate going through stages until its an upright walking man. Neanderthal man was essentially a step or a few steps behind man on the evolutionary ladder.

My Views entirly, I'm not saying there is or there isn't a god, but god certainly is a nice thought.

crzyone

Hey Ray, My IQ was at 163 last year, and what does IQ have to do with this subject?

quote Originally posted by JohnnyK: Man, a rib doesn't come flying out of some guy and morph into a women.

But a piece of fur can turn into a sheep.

Maybe god is a better scientist than we are.

If you want some more beliefs.

I believe that life was on other planets. Ones alot closer than you may think. Nameley Venus. Life eventually evolved to the point where it killed itself out and left the planet so useless that scientists here don't even bother to look for life there. Sounds like what's going to happen here. I hope it does actually. I like irony like that. So what if I'm wrong, it only has to be right to me. I'm the only one who counts in my eyes. I'm sure that youre the only one who truely counts to you. If not..........

Gentlemen,

All organisms have souls. Animals are just people with less developed intellegence.

It's not a binary thing. There is no magic line in speciation that segregates the soul-less from the soul-full creatures.

Life is about shades of gray. Creationism is a bed time story with no basis in reason or evidence to support it.

Darwinism is a theory constructed from evidence collected and summarized. It is not a law, but rather the theory of evolution. To date, the mountain of supporting evidence is astounding.

Despite my Presbyterian baptism, I find christianity to be absurdly arrogant in it's insistance that humans are not similar to other mammals.

It may be harder to kill the next fly you see, but you will still do it. You may have a level of awareness that is greater than other organisms, but you still feel pain and repond to it instictively. So do the other animals.

The bible is correct about the "tree of knowledge" concept. Once you understand the world for it's true nature, the knowledge becomes a burden on your soul.

For example, when western society "urbanizes" tribal cultures, the rates of cancer, heart disease, and murder go from zero to the rates we see in American society. Awareness is a heavy burden.

The crux of the issue is a notion that the first humans were created spontaneously. That our souls; that is our understanding, compassion, and faith arouse in a single moment.

To this notion, I say watch the history channel and see the slow and steady emergence of soul in human history. From the earliest fossils dating more than one million years back to the cave paintings of 40,000 years ago to the Egyptian and Roman Empires, through the middle ages, into the Industrial revolution all the way to the present . . . the human soul is something that develops further with every generation.

I say that since the soul evolves, creationism is no more valid or reasonable than spontaneous generation theory.

The miracle of this world around you is that out of all the possible outcomes that could have occured in the universe life emerged and evolved to create marvels of biological organization including dinosaurs, fish, and humans.

The phrase "Phylogeny recapitulates ontology" captures the similarities between the embrionic development of humans and what we understand of the evolution of human beings. They say seeing is believing.

You can see embryology and chickens, dogs, cats, and humans all look the same for the first few weeks of development. Humans are just the most refined version of the same stuff.

Think of yourselves as Windows 2000 and the other organisms as DOS. They cannot do the wonderful things you can, but a portion of your code is identical to theirs.

In the case of Monkeys vs. Humans, more than 95% of the DNA structure is identical. The real difference is in gene regulation. Monkeys develop more quickly than humans, but reach a less refined end point.

Last point to consider: Intellegence is not valuable to individual survival. It is only beneficial to the formation of societies.

For example: Whales have brains that are 10X larger by mass than human brains. Half of the food consumed by a whale is used to power their enourmous brains. Why would a whale need to have this huge, "gas-guzzler" of a brain?

The answer is similar to what would be said on man's behalf: to build societies and cope with complex problems. The evolution of large brains started as an enhanced rate of survival for those organisms that could work together. From herding behavior to technological society, it was a continium of advancement that enhanced the fitness of a species to propagate.

Evolution fits the evidence. Creationism is just not relevant to life on earth.

Don't believe me? Get a bachelor's of science in biology and then will talk about the "mountain of evidence" I mentioned in this post.

Ignorance is the only friend of creationism. It's sad too, because life is incredibly diverse and clever. Why not put the 2,000 year old books down and see the world of today with the eyes god gave you?

How can I say god gave you eyes and not believe in creationism? Consider the remote possibility of carbon molecules and other trace minerals organizing themselves to form the first cell. You could win a trillion lotteries and still the odds for "first life" would seem infintesimly remote by comparison. God is the luck that made all of this possible: life the universe and everything.

i haven't read this entire post.. but i think Darwin was right survival of the fitest/evolution - let me explain..

i work over looking a city park (Marietta Square) and there are lots of pedestrians and cars. a lady was hit yesterday for crossing the center of a 4 lane road and not using the dedecated cross walks. if we had be created buy such a superior being she should have known beter than to try to beat a car traveling 45. instead her dumb monkey logic/instinct kicked in and all i can think of is a Jeff Foxworthy line.. "ya'll watch this" deffenatly not a darwin award winner but still one great argument for lame human acts.

oh she didn't die but she has a broken leg and some broken ribs.. the driver of the car wasn't charged with anything. (My Fiance works for the City and has a scanner in her office)

this happens at least 2-3 times a year...

--- ok i read a little more---
I too was raised in a church Methodist(sp) and my i left the church when i was about 14-15 cause i had a bloody nose and the pastor/preacher guy grabed my head and told me to repat what he said as he read Ezekiel(sp) 16:6. I'll never forget that.. my bloody nose still didn't stop and i was taken to the hospital for coterization. and i've head a couple people tell me that of different denominations. Now i just pray to the Porcelin god and the Fiero Goddess of speed.

[This message has been edited by 1FST2M6 (edited 02-27-2001).]

I have read through this thread, and it is interesting hearing every ones views. I asked my mother this question who is very religious, and she could not answer it. Who created God? And no I am not an atheist. I just wanted to throw that out there. I believe God/Nature are really the same thing. God is in all things, and we are all connected. I think it is pretty smug of us to believe we are created in God’s image. We have always been on an ego trip. No one was there for the beginning so no one will ever really know how it all started. Theories are great, but it is easy to poke holes in them. A being appearing in the nothingness and willing the universe into existence, and a void where all of a sudden matter appeared causing a cosmic explosion both sound a lot alike if you think about it, but both are easy to poke holes in mainly because we didn't witness it. Personally I don't really care how it all started or how it will end. I live my life for today, and let my conscience guide me. Not a book or some person telling me what is right and what is wrong. If it does not feel right I don't do it. In the end I am the one who has to live with the results of my actions. More than likely I will be dust a long time before the universe ends. As far as evolution vs. creationism I think it is probably a blending of both. That is why it is so hard to prove or disprove either, because both hold some truth in them.

quote Originally posted by 1FST2M6: Now i just pray to the Porcelin god and the Fiero Goddess of speed. (edited 02-27-2001).]

Amen, brotha!!