quote Originally posted by BAM-BAM: AFTER FURTHER REVIEW, THE PLAY STANDS AS CALLED; FIRST DOWN, TEXAS!!!!!! OUT!

Good call, BAM BAM! And isn't there a limit of reviews each team gets for a game?

Did ya'll hear the one guy that realized that Dallas plays Tennessee soon? He said let's let the game decide! If Dallas wins, Bush gets the White House, If Tennessee wins, it is Gore's! He went on to say wouldn't it be funny if the game went into overtime and was finally decided by a last minute field goal! hehe

This is funny, but this is one time when I would definitely not want to do that! Tennessee will bring this one home again!

Sorry for the multiple posts.. just trying to catch up with all that has been written since last night!

Why Oh why can't I stop myself from posting in this thread ??????????

Both Political partys know the rules concerning Electoral College.
(perhaps it needs to be changed but that another story)

The ballot was approved by both Political partys before the election.

A revote in Florida would be insanley tainted.

Both Gentelmen need to abide by the recount and drop the silly law suit crap.

Both political partys ( and I'm a staunch Republican)need to resolve this matter very quickly.......We are becoming a laughing stock on an International Level again... or is it still ?

The MEDIA NEEDS TO STAY THE H&LL OUT OF THE PROCESS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And just who did invite Jesse Jackson to the party ?...lol

Ah Heck guess I'll chime in too.
I agree with both sides! The vote was close so recount.
Why aren't we recounting in WI,IA,OR,or Pa???
all of these states were extremely close.
I guess I should mention that the election isn't even technically done yet. All the states have to wait for their absentee ballots to come in before they can cast their electoral vote.
except for MN we always vote Dem hell I think minnesotans even voted for duckakais??
Ya I vote just so I can bit@h damn tree hugging liberals... sorry just about to go off on a rant.. maybe next time.

VOTE?? ELECTION?? RECOUNT??........What are you all talking about??

DAMIT!!!! I guy goes to the john for a min. and he misses an entire election!!

------------------

"AHHHHH!!! All Fiero's don't start on fire you BONEHEAD!!"

I've got it...a stroke of genius...

Let the Florida Lottery design the next ballot...how about a scratch off ballot...

They could call it "Pick the Prez 2004" or something like that...

C'Mon...even the 100 year old seniors who actually don't drive and need to be shocked back into this world and wear inch thick glasses know if they scratch off too many options that they've wasted a buck.

The end of this process should occur on Nov. 17 when all Florida votes are counted/recounted...whomever leads by even one vote is President and the loser should concede. And I no longer give a damn about who it is...the loser should just give it up and go away.

I've been trying hard to stay out of this debate. But, I've noticed that numerous forum members, ones I thought had some common sense and intellegence, are calling the poor voters that got confused, morons and worse. I hope when you guys get elderly and are trying to peer down through your bifocals at a tiny printed ballot and can't quite figure it out immediately, that someone calls you a moron too. Have a little compassion, these people might be our grandparents and are real people with real rights too.

All you Bush supporters...back off. There is no winner yet because all the ballots have not been counted. Those absentee ballets could make a big difference to the outcome. At least in Palm Beach County, there is a good case that the ballot might be illegal according to Florida law.

Doesn't it seem strange that G.W. Bush's brother is govenor in a state where there is documented election irregualities. Ballot boxes missing, minorities turned away, sample ballots published before the elections were not the same as used, etc, etc.

Combine this with the fact that Gore appears to have the majority of the popular vote. Sounds like the America people want Gore for president to me. Any proven voter fraud and election tampering should be resolved quickly and harshly. It's very important that this should never happen again.

The Republican party in general has been paying off major kickbacks and playing dirty for years now. It's time to say we've had enough and put a stop to this bullschitt. Bush ought to keep his big mouth shut until the election count is officially verified and is completed. Any possible illegal activity should be solved in court. That is the American way.

If anything, Jeb Bush has distinguished himself by recusing himself from the process.

And the election process is basically handled by the Dems in Florida...after all, the state Atty. General is a Democrat...

I also agree that both candidates should shut the fugg up...if they both want to move forward with appointments as if they expect to be elected that is fine with me. Some may call that showboating, but I believe it demonstrates to the world that there will be a continuity of leadership regardless of what happens.

I am appalled at the practice of rounding up nursing home residents and homeless folks and people of questionable citizenship to vote in any election...if they don't understand the issues and the voting process, for whatever reason, they should be excluded from the process. Remember, a lot of perfectly healthy, informed voters didn't even bother to take the time.

There are twice as many registered Democrats in Florida than Republicans...the real issue to Gore and the Democrats should be why they didn't show up to vote for their guy.

Tennessee would have clinched it for Gore had he won his home state.

On the cadidates... Doesn't matter who gets in. They are both pathetic.

On the problematic Florida Ballot... I do allot of readability and functional type testing of print and manufacturing stuff. That ballot is a horrible design. Ignore the numerous drawings and look at actual photos showing the whole ballot and the way it lays in the real world. (CNN has one of the better photos.)

You have an alignment issue right off the bat. Not only must the card be perfectly placed in the punch bed, but the printing on the wing pages must also be perfectly placed and those pages must be inserted into the machine perfectly as well. There's at least 3 potential falures right there.

Add to this that many people are vision impared. The mispunch number goes up fast.

For those of you that don't understand how the ballot works, go to K/wall mart etc and look at the poster display stand in the toy department. Imagine the posters are the white ballot sheets with all the names and you have to punch a hole in a card in between the poster frames. You finish that column and turn the frame to expose the next voting column on the punch card. Any slack in the frames, misalignment of the ballot sheets, or misalignment of the punch card, and you have the kind of problem holding up florida.

The problem here is that the Florida board of elections is grossly incompetant or corrupt. Their own testing should have exposed this problem years ago. The odds they don't know of the problems I described above are very small. There is no excuse for this ballot design to exist. This isn't the first time this ballot design has shown these problems.

Jeb Bush has nothing to do with the election process in Florida.......to try to blame him for missing ballot boxes etc. is inane.

There are election irregularities in every state....every time. And the only one I hear screaming discrimination is Jesse Jackson....so whats new ?

If anyone had any problems with the ballot then they should have asked for help. I would have....I wear bi-focals !

The ballot was preapproved by both parties and designed with seniors in mind by a Democrat.

To say the the Replublicans have been underwriting dirty deals and payoffs and not saying that the Democrats do the same is assinine.

The electoral college elects the president...thats a Constitutional FACT !!! The popular vote does not...and thats a FACT !!!Be it right or wrong we can't change the rules in the middle of the game. Both candidates were and are aware of the rules.

HOW MANY RECOUNTS WILL THE DEMOCRATS REQUIRE ???

THIS IS GETTING UGLY.
ANY OF YOU WHO CAN ACTUALLY SAY THAT BALLET WAS CONFUSING ARE OBVIOUSLY MORONS!!!
WHAT A SORRY ASS EXCUSE!!!! MY GOD, THIS IS A BAD OMEN FOR THE FUTURE OF OUR COUNTRY.
BOO HOO...I DONT LIKE THE OUTCOME..LETS JUST KEEP COUNTING AND SAY THE HELL WITH THE LAWS..I WANT MY PERSON TO WIN.

Easy now Dale, don't get your undies in a bunch. Florida State law required the statewide recount, not the Democrats. Regardless of what anyone thinks, the election process is not over until all the votes are counted, verified, certified, and made official. That includes all absentee ballots too.

I said the majority of the American people want Gore for president, which is quite true, just look at the popular vote. There have been 2 or 3 U.S. presidents in history that did not get the popular vote, but were elected. Yes, this is quite possible and legal, assuming the election process was valid. The voter fraud and election irregularities in this case are most disturbing, especially with the vote being so close. If the courts decide that some county did not have a legal election and orders a re-vote, so be it. Anything else would not be fair.

I myself have felt rushed and hurried during the voting, because there are usually a line of folks waiting impatiently behind me for their turn too. Sometimes seniors (and I bet you and I too at times) have too much pride to ask for help or don't want to seem helpless.

batboy, true that it says they must recount if the difference is less then 1%, which it is. Where does it say they must recount TWICE? Then the Democraps want to look at all of the 19,000 ballots who voted twice and determine the voters "intent". I wonder who they think the voter intended to vote for.

Also, if the old people down there had trouble with seeing the ballot, why didn't they ask for help? My friend had to help her grandfather, 90 years old, at the voting booth here in MD. It was that simple. Saying afterwards "I voted for the wrong guy" or whatever is a day late and a dollar short.

Those "voting irregularities" is just liberal media B.S. trying to sway public opinion for Gore. None of those allegations have ANY concrete evidence.

I would also have to disagree with the statement about Bush keeping his mouth shut. It is Gore and his campaign that is going crazy about the recounting and revoting (never happen). Bush has only spoken publicly twice to my knowledge on this topic. Gore had his nice little photoshoot football game with his picture perfect family (aww what a kodak moment).

Finally batboy, your saying that we should all wait until we count the absentee ballots. I agree 100%. However, shouldn't we not judge the popular vote until we get the absentee votes in? Remember, many absentee voters are military, and we all know who they usually vote for...

("I said the majority of the American people want Gore for president, which is quite true, just look at the popular vote.")

IMHO of course

------------------
Jeff
'88 GT t-top 3.4
Baltimore, MD

Did Lyndon LaRouche come back from the dead and become a cop in Memphis? Queen Elizabeth is a drug dealer! Gore is a Chinese built android programmed by Chelsea Clinton! The Pontiac Aztek is a leftist conspiracy to get red-blooded Americans afraid to get on the higway! What's the frequency, Kenneth? Does not compute, does not compute. And verily on the eighth day God spoke to George Herbert Bush and said Yea, though thou dost walk among men, ye nor your offspring shall be of them, yea, they will poo vanilla soft serve and their flatulence will not be that of men, but smell sweetly like the honeysuckle. And all men will be fearful and amazed, and be oh so jealous, because they will not be bad losers like the other guys.

POLITICS SUCK
can we move on now?

No, we can't move on...

Among all our candidates, Mr. Bush seems like the only one to me that could ever be seen in a Fiero...Gore seems more like the Volvo Wagon type and Nader is obviously the VW Bus/bicycle type.

Did you know that there was a candidate on the ballot in some states named Monica Morehead ?

Apparently, if elected, she would serve under the desk in the Oval Office.

While driving down the highway Friday afternoon, I found myself behind a Honda Insight, with "gore Leiberman" stickers plastered on every square inch of the rear of the car. I couldn't stop laughing, obviously that guy knew his priorities. Wish I would have had a camara with me!

Stimpy....I worry 'bout cha sometimes man!

I have been watching the news, and following this in the papers. I think it is interesting for the school teachers who are trying to use this election like they always do to teach students how politics work. Or are supposed to anyway. Must be a fun time for those teachers right now. LOL.

I have to say that in this post you can easily see who is a supporter of Gore, and who is a supporter of Bush.
The facts so far are that Gore is NOT the one who originally caused the first Florida recount. It was automatic under Florida law due to the close numbers. Saying that Gore is whining and so forth, is just not true. He has only said that he wants it to be done right, with no rush to judgement. Bush on the other hand is allready setting up his cabinet. And now his people are fighting a recount in court scheduled for Monday. He seems to be pretty scared that a quality hand done recount may show a different winner in some of those areas that had serious irregular problems and uncounted ballots due to bad punching designs. The hand count is also automatic in certain circumstances under Florida law. They have mentioned this over and over in the news, so I don't know why some keep thinking that Gore and his people had anything to do with it. His people did ask for recounts in some districts due to obvious problems, but that was there right under Florida law. That would be Jeb Bush and his states laws by the way :-) Bush and his people have that right also.

I don't believe that Jeb Bush had anything to do with the voting problems and missing ballots, other than he is the governor and it is happening on his watch.

The ballot punch problem looks like it has effected Illinois now also, so I think that gives even more weight now to those poor voters in Florida who said they had a problem with the poorly designed and misaligned ballot. At first it looked like other states that used a similar "butterfly" ballot like Illinois had had no problems, but now it looks like that is now not the case.

Speaking of the confusing ballot design. Many have said that this is the same ballot Florida and other states have used for years. That is incorrect. The lady who designed the "new" ballot has now gotten a lawyer because of the questions arising from her design she made for "this years" ballot. Allthough similar, this is a new ballot design that she says she made with the elderly in mind. That's a good one. Did she try a real world test using test subjects like some elderly people that she says she designed it for in an actual booth to see how it would work? Also, just because she happens to be a democrat doesn't change the fact that it is a pretty poor design. Yes, it was approved by both parties, but the one that was approved is not the final one everyone got stuck with. Oh yeah, the final one was also different in more ways than just having the holes in it.

The story about the teacher that duplicated the ballot and substituted Disney characters and that her students didn't have any problems voting is a great story. The one problem with that, is that the kids only had to mark the spot with a marker. In the real world in Florida, those who had to use the actual ballot had to deal with the ballot nit fitting right in the punch box. Obviously the teachers students didn't have that problem.

I do agree that the people should have said something right off when they discovered it didn't punch correctly, but I know my grandmother and I bet she wouldn't have said anything either. Would that make her vote not count like those in Palm Beach? That is the big question now I guess.
We shall see. This is history folks. Did you see that

Sorry to post this again, but I want to make sure the people who think this was a confusing ballot get a good look at it to see just how wrong they are.....

Where is the confusion? I don't get it?

------------------
Jeff
'88 GT t-top 3.4
Baltimore, MD

Fiero5sp-Black88GT wrote: "I love how every time someone disagrees with Kelley he claims its a personal attack. (yet, he calls me moronic?)
Then he says I have nothing better to do, coming from a guy who posts 90 things on his 2m4 beating a Viper (haha) or his ratty fiero club junk, or his dad looking for a blue GT. How many emails showed up on the lists about these topics? More then I have ever posted in 4 years of being on the lists."

At least I have topical and fun things to add to this Forum unlike you apparently. If you look back over the last few weeks or more, every post you have done has been attacks and negative feedback.
Maybe you could do something out of your current childish character, like decide to do intelligent posts from now on, as the rest of us are geting pretty sick of your idiotic attitude.
We all know you don't like 4 cyl Fieros, that you don't like other peoples opinions and view points. Heck, you even disagree and ignore facts taken straight from on line news sites. How silly is that?
But I am sure you will now show us once again your amazing intelligence and quick wit.
Oh, and the puking face on Marians new welcome post was just so adult of you.
By the way Jeff, my first name is Steve, try to get it right next time. Thanks.

Back to the election, or lack so far of it. I wonder how it's going to feel for the final winner after what it took to get to be the winner? Could be kind of a hollow victory. They are saying that if many states did a recount, many numbers could change. They are saying on the news that states could actually change from who originally won the state. That's pretty sad if you think about it.

"Sorry to post this again, but I want to make sure the people who think this was a confusing ballot get a good look at it to see just how wrong they are....."

I am sorry to see that you still don't listen or read well. It wasn't just that the ballot was confusing, it was that the punch box didn't line up properly with the card. Add both of these togther, and this is why thousands of voters had a problem.
Do you get it now?
Test at 11:00 :-)

Fiero2, when you take the "test at 11:00", if you happen to fail it, you can always say that you were confused and didnt undestand it. (But by all means, please DONT ask questions BEFORE you take it! Then you wouldnt have an excuse!)

Btw, I saw a bumper sticker the other day that said: IF YOU CAN READ THIS, THEN YOU MUST BE A REPUBLICAN!

You guys... geez.
Anyway, what is the absolute latest date by which the whole thing MUST be resolved? Somebody said there's some point where the House of Rep's would have to pick the next Prez, is that right, anybody know? How much time is required for a successful transition? Sure, Gore has been VP and knows everything about the office anyway, but Dubya's daddy was Prez among other things, so he should know a lot about it even if his info might be 8 years old.
I'm just wondering "what if".

Okay people, the situation is bad enough even without the personal attacks...

So discuss this to your heart's content but try to stay away from making this personal. Please, can we at least agree on that so I don't have to close an interesting topic?

(no, we will not vote on this)

Cliff makes a good point. As mature adults, we ought to be able to discuss ANYTHING without resorting to personal attacts. I'm not picking on anyone because several of us are guilty of this, but clearly Fiero5 was making a personal attack. Doesn't matter if he was flamed before or not, you should be able to make good arguements without personally attacking someone else. Remember, two wrongs don't make a right.

Personally, I liked Saturday Night Live's Idea of making them both president and having a sitcom "Odd Couple" in the White House. Last night SNL was poking fun at both candidates and it was hillarious. At times they are both acting like little school kids.

I know that I added fuel to the fire in this topic, but I was merely exercising my right to free speech. You don't have to like what I said or support my opinion. If anyone feels like I was picking on them personally, I'm sorry. Email me personally and vent if you want. As long as you don't call me or my family any dirty names, I'll probably apologize in return. After the election is over (it ain't over yet}, life will go on. It's not the end of the world either way.

"Fiero2, when you take the "test at 11:00", if you happen to fail it, you can always say that you were confused and didnt undestand it. (But by all means, please DONT ask questions BEFORE you take it! Then you wouldnt have an excuse!)"

I can't find the punch hole :-) LOL

------------------

Wow, have you heard the latest on the news? There is now talk by some of looking into doing one of two things, if the recounts continue to be contraversial and problematic.

1) Throw out Florida alltogether as doing a revote is out of the question. That would be great, now "everyones" vote in Florida might not count. This would then conveniatly give Gore the win as he has the higher count right now. I can see the lawsuits grow out of that brilliant decision.

2) Waite till the end of all the recounts, and then use the popular vote to decide. The argumant being that it would at least put the person in the White House who the majority voted for. But is that legal either? Wouldn't that mean changing a law or two in the constitution?

It get's better and better every time I turn on the news :o) At least the fact about the confusing ballot that didn't line up is being mentioned everywhere now, so maybe that will help get it fixed so it hopefully won't happen again. They said that last year in Florida sixteen thousand votes were thrown out due to a similar problem. I guess they not only didn't learn, they made it worse.
Ya gotta love it :o)

I laughed so hard I almost peed my pants...Mini Me...LOL!

Election arguements are nothing new. Check out this painting that Norman Rockwell did back in 1948. Change the faces in the newspapers to Bush and Gore and you have the year 2000.

During Tuesday evening while George w. Bush and his family were waiting for the election results in Texas, they got hungry and called out for food. Bush is known for being a "meat" and potatoes man. Looks like the secret is now out of the bag :o) LMAO

------------------

Someone correct me if I am wrong, but aren't the absentee ballots due in tomorrow? Or is it next Monday? I can't remember.

I hope they come in tomorrow, they should give Bush more breathing room then 327 votes.

They are not going to have a revote OR throw out Florida's votes. The most they can do is recount and recount and recount some more, which they probably will due until Gore comes out ahead. There is no such thing as "revoting". Voting is like dying in the English dictionary. You can't "re-die". Once its done, its done.

If I was Gore, I would not concede until the absentee ballots come in. Some of the Republicans asking for him to concede are jumping the gun. There is still a chance for Gore. I would do the same thing if I ran a big election and came so close. However, like I said before, most of the absentee ballots are from overseas servicemen and they usually go with Republicans (especially after the "glory days" of the Reagan Administration and the 8 years of hell with Clinton)

IMHO

p.s. kelley if you have anything to say to me, email it. No one else cares

------------------
Jeff
'88 GT t-top 3.4
Baltimore, MD

The Florida recount is mandated by law, as the margin of victory was less than the 0.5% required in the Florida statute.

As far as I'm concerned, the recount is done (excepting the absentee ballots). Having computer ballots hand counted just introduces human error into the process as well as subjective interpretation of what a voter tried to vote for.

The votes (again, excepting absentee) have been counted twice and Mr. Bush has come out on top both times. It's time for both sides to tone down the rhetoric and wait for the absentees to be counted.

And whomever comes up with the lesser vote total should concede. No Mulligans allowed.

The real question here is Why are we still using these decade old punch cards? I know full well that a secure voting system could be set up using computers that would save countless time and even give you the option to double check your vote before it gets submitted to the master voting system.

Imagine it just for a second:
YOU HAVE SELECTED PAT BUCHANAN FOR PRESIDENT. ARE YOU SURE?

If I can log on to my computer, or anyone's computer for that matter, and discuss my car with over 1000 people all over the world...I sure should be able to vote on a PC with big buttons for each candiate and feel confident that my vote will get logged properly.

At least then, our problem would not be those people who "exeperienced difficulty" (is that PC enough) with the punch card ballots. Our problem would be those 15 year old kids whose parents got them an E-machine with broadband internet service for christmas hacking into the system and adding pokemon to the ballot.

BTW, I wonder how Buchanan feels to hear the media say a vote for him couldnt possibly have been done on purpose???

------------------
Dillon
Black '87 SE V6
"You mean like the back seat of a Volkswagen?"

http://www.reelwavs.com/sounds/dumb11.wav

LOL

HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!! LMbuttO. No Offence!

Regarding the recount in Florida: As has been said before... it's the law. Bush won the first AND second recount. The reason Gore gained votes in the hand count is because he is only recounting them in largly DEMOCRATE rich counties, DUH. If the officials decide to extend the cut-off date from 5:00 pm Tuesday, then Bush needs to start counting the REPUBLICAN counties.

To be fair to both parties, let's just recount the ENTIRE 2,000,000+ votes for the ENTIRE state by hand. Be sure to shake each card so the paper dots fall out. Hold each one up to the light to see if it looks like someone TRIED to punch it. Never mind that it's only the jobless (a.k.a. retirees) that will be doing the re-counting (Excuse me sir while I put on my bi-focals). Yea, that's what we should do.... Computers always make errors that favor the Republican party. PU-LEASE!!!

The punch card method has been used for YEARS (and, yes, they DO line up if you puch the CORRECT arrow). No one, democrate OR republican, complained about the method when Reagan or Bush, Sr. was elected, nor did they complain about it when Clinton was elected. So, after eight years of a democrate in the oval office are we now more STUPID then the twelve years of republican presidency? Could the fact the the republicans have the majority vote in the House and Senate and that it's time to appoint a couple of Supreme Court Judges have something to do with all the fuss by the democrates?

Bush won... Gore didn't. I hate it when a football game ends on a controversial call, too. It sucks to be on the losing side but, life goes on. If changes need to be made, then let's make them... apply them to the next election. But for now, let's MOVE ON!

Roy

That picture of the voters and the signs is great! I am LMAO. I have got to go find another pic that's as good as that one or the Mini Me one. Be right back.

Is that before or after he was arrested for drunk driving? LOL