A while ago I purchased a license plate cover from a local Advance Auto Parts store. Yesterday, I got a ticket for $139 for having an obscured license plate. The cop said that the plate wasn't legible from 25 ft. away as it apparently must be. I walked 25 ft. away and I could read my plate without any problem. I asked to cop to join me and see for himself and he refused to do so and proceeded to write me a ticket.
a) Why would a local automotive products store sell a product that is illegal to have on your car? b) Why would the cop refuse to re-check the claim he's making when it would take 10 seconds and 20 ft. walking distance to do so?
I'm going to give this to a lawyer and fight it just out of principle. The cop was nice and our conversation cordial but WTF???
put down a tape measure, mark off the distance, take a photo, go to court. BTW, just because they sell it, doesn't make it legal to have on vehicle that is parked on the street. That cover could be for a front plate, for use in a state where front plates are not covered
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02:45 PM
yellowstone Member
Posts: 9299 From: Düsseldorf/Germany Registered: Jun 2003
The cops mentality. Im right, youre wrong, Im big, youre little, Im smart, and youre dumb. What yah gonna do about it. At least thats their mentality here.
------------------ Thank for the sig. Bobadoofunk 1984 White Fiero Sport Coupe (Juliet) in restoration 1988 Red Fiero Standard Coupe (Bella) in restoration 1990 Black Buick Reatta (Noir) 2002 White Chevy Impala base(Haylie)
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03:07 PM
yellowstone Member
Posts: 9299 From: Düsseldorf/Germany Registered: Jun 2003
BTW, just because they sell it, doesn't make it legal to have on vehicle that is parked on the street. That cover could be for a front plate, for use in a state where front plates are not covered
So how would one ever find out, other than the friendly neighborhood cop pointing it out...?
Having been through a similar situation quite a few years ago, there are 2 things I would recommend:
1) Check your local & state laws regarding the legality of any license plate cover. Here in Minnesota - they are all illegal per state regulation. 2) Check the packaging from the cover for fine print. Many accessories have fine print denoting them as "for off road use only" - which allows the manufacturer, distributors & retail sellers to side-step DOT regulations and places the legal liability of using them in the buyer's hands.
A quick search found Florida Statute 316.605:
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316.605 Licensing of vehicles.—
(1) Every vehicle, at all times while driven, stopped, or parked upon any highways, roads, or streets of this state, shall be licensed in the name of the owner thereof in accordance with the laws of this state unless such vehicle is not required by the laws of this state to be licensed in this state and shall, except as otherwise provided in s. 320.0706 for front-end registration license plates on truck tractors and s. 320.086(5) which exempts display of license plates on described former military vehicles, display the license plate or both of the license plates assigned to it by the state, one on the rear and, if two, the other on the front of the vehicle, each to be securely fastened to the vehicle outside the main body of the vehicle not higher than 60 inches and not lower than 12 inches from the ground and no more than 24 inches to the left or right of the centerline of the vehicle, and in such manner as to prevent the plates from swinging, and all letters, numerals, printing, writing, and other identification marks upon the plates regarding the word “Florida,” the registration decal, and the alphanumeric designation shall be clear and distinct and free from defacement, mutilation, grease, and other obscuring matter, so that they will be plainly visible and legible at all times 100 feet from the rear or front. Vehicle license plates shall be affixed and displayed in such a manner that the letters and numerals shall be read from left to right parallel to the ground. No vehicle license plate may be displayed in an inverted or reversed position or in such a manner that the letters and numbers and their proper sequence are not readily identifiable. Nothing shall be placed upon the face of a Florida plate except as permitted by law or by rule or regulation of a governmental agency. No license plates other than those furnished by the state shall be used. However, if the vehicle is not required to be licensed in this state, the license plates on such vehicle issued by another state, by a territory, possession, or district of the United States, or by a foreign country, substantially complying with the provisions hereof, shall be considered as complying with this chapter. A violation of this subsection is a noncriminal traffic infraction, punishable as a nonmoving violation as provided in chapter 318.
(2) Any commercial motor vehicle, as defined in s. 316.003(66), operating over the highways of this state with an expired registration, with no registration from this or any other jurisdiction, or with no registration under the applicable provisions of chapter 320 shall be in violation of s. 320.07(3) and shall subject the owner or operator of such vehicle to the penalty provided. In addition, a commercial motor vehicle found in violation of this section may be detained by any law enforcement officer until the owner or operator produces evidence that the vehicle has been properly registered and that any applicable delinquent penalties have been paid.
Check the law first, then take it up with a lawyer, if you want to pursue it... If they are illegal, then get rid of it, if NOT, the cop may have been looking for an excuse to pull you over. Your attitude sets their attitude, if you even seem to question them, they "cop" an attitude.
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03:18 PM
yellowstone Member
Posts: 9299 From: Düsseldorf/Germany Registered: Jun 2003
Check the law first, then take it up with a lawyer, if you want to pursue it... If they are illegal, then get rid of it, if NOT, the cop may have been looking for an excuse to pull you over. Your attitude sets their attitude, if you even seem to question them, they "cop" an attitude.
The guy was nice and cordial and so was I. But if he says that the plate isn't legible from 25 feet away (as he says is required) and I checked (in his presence) and it plainly is, why wouldn't he reconsider? How is checking on the veracity of a claim having an attitude? He saw me driving by and thus couldn't really check the "25 feet" until I was stopped... is being wrong about something that shameful for a cop?
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04:04 PM
gtxbullet Member
Posts: 4164 From: Pewaukee, Wisconsin, USA Registered: Apr 2008
The guy was nice and cordial and so was I. But if he says that the plate isn't legible from 25 feet away (as he says is required) and I checked (in his presence) and it plainly is, why wouldn't he reconsider? How is checking on the veracity of a claim having an attitude? He saw me driving by and thus couldn't really check the "25 feet" until I was stopped... is being wrong about something that shameful for a cop?
long story short. yes. before you get a lawyer involve check the laws. and if there is no law, then set up an apointment with either the Chief of Police or the Sheriff at the station the Officer was registered at. a lawyer is the last thing you'd want to do. it will cost more than the ticket (most likely) and afterwards you could get another ticket for the same thing from the same cop and you'd have to do it all over again. if the Chief or Sheriff aren't of any help, just pay the fine. you can leave it on and hope you don't get another ticket.
I had a RED cover on the rear plate of my 98 Camaro and no front plate. I didn't have any issues.
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04:14 PM
shawnk Member
Posts: 968 From: San Francisco, California, USA Registered: Mar 2008
I work for the Police Department here in San Francisco, so im not sure what your local regs. are but plate wise you cannot have even clear plastic covering the plate numbers. A frame is ok but no part of the numbers, or registration stickers may be covered.
Depending on how the office views his job taking back a ticket is 50/50 all tickets have a number in sequence with the next. If his tickets come up with missing numbers then questions may get asked that he has to explain.....here it would not be an issue, but i dont know your local PD policies. That should be a corrections ticket just take the cover off and go to the station to get the ticket signed off.
There are a lot of products sold that are illegal for use on the streets....window tint, under body lighting, plate covers, ect. Illegal to use but not to sell....I agree it is dumb that they can be sold, but the officer isnt the one making the laws we just enforce them.
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04:17 PM
PFF
System Bot
css9450 Member
Posts: 5423 From: Glen Ellyn, Illinois, USA Registered: Nov 2002
You must've run into the same guy who gave my brother a ticket when he lived down there; he had a University of Michigan "M" sticker right in the middle of his plate where there was a gap between the numbers. We figured he must've been an Ohio State fan or alum.
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04:41 PM
shawnk Member
Posts: 968 From: San Francisco, California, USA Registered: Mar 2008
You must've run into the same guy who gave my brother a ticket when he lived down there; he had a University of Michigan "M" sticker right in the middle of his plate where there was a gap between the numbers. We figured he must've been an Ohio State fan or alum.
really?.....i hope your bro didnt complain about the ticket
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04:57 PM
jameejamz Member
Posts: 33 From: Diggs, Virginia, United States Registered: May 2012
The cop also said the greenish tint on the top of the windshield was borderline illegal. WTH, that's STOCK!
I was in my fiero when I was 8, the driver was the original owner, and a family friend. We got pulled over for the back windshield tint which was stock. Even with the factory sticker in the window saying that it was factory, the cop said that it didn't matter. He fought it in court and won, but still...
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So how would one ever find out, other than the friendly neighborhood cop pointing it out...?
If it its in question, then you should stop by your local precinct, or sheriff's office and ASK! Here in VA we cannot have angel eye projectors with the projectors on while on any state road. Parking lots are a different story. Same thing with underglow. Also, alot of things are left to the discretion of the officer. Just a fact of life, and not much to be done about it.
I think a lot of people have already answered your inquiries and chimed in on the topic, but I figure I'll go ahead also
Many of the parts places like Advanced Auto Parts and other stores are allowed to sell parts considered for "off-road usage only." Those are normally parts that you see like neon underglow, super dark tint, etc. The key terminology is "off-road usage only." Nowadays most all creators of these type parts specifically place on the package that these parts they create are intended for off-road to clear them of any liability on their part and leave all that up to the end user of the product. And that's not off-road in the sense of traveling on dirt or something like that. It literally means "off the streets", like at car shows or when a vehicle is not moving or placed on a standard road.
When it boils down to it, you are responsible for whatever you put on your car, and the actual manufacturer of the parts will clear themselves of any liability even if they are creating parts which obviously are illegal for street usage.
Now in regards to license plate covers, yes, many of them in most jurisdictions are now illegal, even if they are clear. Some hardcore places even outlaw simple vanity frames around plates and can give you tickets for those also. I believe the biggest issue is indeed as was mentioned somewhat above is you cannot place anything on your plate that could potentially jeporadize a police officer's ability to read the numbers or the DMV tags placed onto the plate. The plate could be readable even with something on it, but that doesn't make it viewable at all points at all angles. Hence why you received your ticket.
Now for a front plate if it were required, I don't really see any issues with that, since most of the time front plates are duplicates without any DMV tags. I also think it's wise to have something covering it since road debris could damage the front plate or make it unreadable. However for rear plates, you do have to tread lightly with what you put on them.
I run without anything on my plates. I too was pulled over back in 2004 with the car I was driving and had a slightly smoked rear plate cover. I received a citation for it and was forced to remove it. I since then do not run with plate covers.
the covers are illegal in fl.........but the cops usually don't care about them if they are NOT TINTED or reflective. some cops go by the book so you might get out of it but then you might not
Originally posted by Fiero84Freak: Now for a front plate if it were required, I don't really see any issues with that, since most of the time front plates are duplicates without any DMV tags. I also think it's wise to have something covering it since road debris could damage the front plate or make it unreadable. However for rear plates, you do have to tread lightly with what you put on them.
316.605 Licensing of vehicles.—
(1) Every vehicle, at all times while driven, stopped, or parked upon any highways, roads, or streets of this state, shall be licensed in the name of the owner thereof in accordance with the laws of this state unless such vehicle is not required by the laws of this state to be licensed in this state and shall, except as otherwise provided in s. 320.0706 for front-end registration license plates on truck tractors and s. 320.086(5) which exempts display of license plates on described former military vehicles, display the license plate or both of the license plates assigned to it by the state, one on the rear and, if two, the other on the front of the vehicle, each to be securely fastened to the vehicle outside the main body of the vehicle not higher than 60 inches and not lower than 12 inches from the ground and no more than 24 inches to the left or right of the centerline of the vehicle, and in such manner as to prevent the plates from swinging, and all letters, numerals, printing, writing, and other identification marks upon the plates regarding the word “Florida,” the registration decal, and the alphanumeric designation shall be clear and distinct and free from defacement, mutilation, grease, and other obscuring matter, so that they will be plainly visible and legible at all times 100 feet from the rear or front. Vehicle license plates shall be affixed and displayed in such a manner that the letters and numerals shall be read from left to right parallel to the ground. No vehicle license plate may be displayed in an inverted or reversed position or in such a manner that the letters and numbers and their proper sequence are not readily identifiable.
Nothing shall be placed upon the face of a Florida plate except as permitted by law or by rule or regulation of a governmental agency.
No license plates other than those furnished by the state shall be used. However, if the vehicle is not required to be licensed in this state, the license plates on such vehicle issued by another state, by a territory, possession, or district of the United States, or by a foreign country, substantially complying with the provisions hereof, shall be considered as complying with this chapter. A violation of this subsection is a noncriminal traffic infraction, punishable as a nonmoving violation as provided in chapter 318.
Front plates cannot have the numbers covered even by clear plastic. I had a man come to my station and argue about it. He got a ticket for the cover and brought in the vehicle code to says it wasnt mentioned in it. He didnt read it all.
california
CVC 5201. (2) (2) The installation of a license plate security cover is not a violation of this subdivision if the device does not obstruct or impair the recognition of the license plate information, including, but not limited to, the issuing state, license plate number, and registration tabs, and the cover is limited to the area directly over the top of the registration tabs. No portion of a license plate security cover shall rest over the license plate number.
Originally posted by shawnk: Nothing shall be placed upon the face of a Florida plate except as permitted by law or by rule or regulation of a governmental agency.
So if it's wet, your plates are in violation of state law, being that water is placed upon the face of a plate? Or if you park in a garage, even with a glass door?
I think you guys are being a bit too strict in your interpretation of that statement of the law. I'm pretty sure it means you're not allowed to a) paint your plates in any way, or b) apply any stickers or such to the plate, as not provided by state registration authority for showing date of expiration. More importantly, you need to look at the definition of "placed upon" which of course is probably not actually defined in the law. It generally means "affixed to" or "mounted on." Neither of those would apply for a clear or tinted piece of hard plastic, as it doesn't stick to the plate itself, and merely also mounts to the body using the same screws as are used to mount the license plate itself. However, the more important piece of that law, as quoted, is that it states the plates must be clearly visible and legible, from 100 feet. Not 25 feet. This means the cop was wrong anyway, and you need to prove it is clearly visible and legible from 100 feet.
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05:57 PM
CoryFiero Member
Posts: 4341 From: Charleston, SC Registered: Oct 2001
a) Why would a local automotive products store sell a product that is illegal to have on your car?
hahahahahahahahahahah are you shitting me sir? The store can sell whatever they want. They can sell pure black window tint, they can sell straight pipes to replace catalytic converters, they can sell subwoofers that are 1 million decibels loud. Why? because it's not ****ing communist Russia.
BTW very nice car. It honestly has always been my favorite Fiero. Very tastefully done. Definitely fight the ticket if it is really legal within the law, but please don't ask why a store sold it to you. They didn't put it on your car, did they?
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06:34 PM
PFF
System Bot
Alex4mula Member
Posts: 7403 From: Canton, MI US Registered: Dec 1999
He made you think that. He was not. He was a jack A$$. I have the same exact cover on three of my cars. Never had a problem nor it mentioned when they stopped me for something else. He just wanted to write you a ticket because he liked your car and probably was ignorant to think it was a Ferrari. Cops love ticket fancy car owners. Now, having said that, go and get the fully clear version if you want. Go to Ticketclinic and pay the $70+ and forget about it. Either the cop will not attend court (you don't have to) or it will be dismissed. Bet you the $70 it will. And if that was close to your area watch for that cop that he will be watching you!
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08:09 PM
shawnk Member
Posts: 968 From: San Francisco, California, USA Registered: Mar 2008
So if it's wet, your plates are in violation of state law, being that water is placed upon the face of a plate? Or if you park in a garage, even with a glass door?
I think you guys are being a bit too strict in your interpretation of that statement of the law. I'm pretty sure it means you're not allowed to a) paint your plates in any way, or b) apply any stickers or such to the plate, as not provided by state registration authority for showing date of expiration. More importantly, you need to look at the definition of "placed upon" which of course is probably not actually defined in the law. It generally means "affixed to" or "mounted on." Neither of those would apply for a clear or tinted piece of hard plastic, as it doesn't stick to the plate itself, and merely also mounts to the body using the same screws as are used to mount the license plate itself. However, the more important piece of that law, as quoted, is that it states the plates must be clearly visible and legible, from 100 feet. Not 25 feet. This means the cop was wrong anyway, and you need to prove it is clearly visible and legible from 100 feet.
really? come on. Is water afixed to the plate? Is the glass garage door bolted to your car? If I pulled you over to inform you of law and was not going to give you a ticket and that was your argument...... I'd write you a ticket
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08:29 PM
madcurl Member
Posts: 21401 From: In a Van down by the Kern River Registered: Jul 2003
One question. Was your beautiful wife with you while you were being ticketed? If not, I think that was the reason he pulled you over. Seriously, the factory windshield tint he said was "border line" illegal is nonsense.
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08:31 PM
E.Furgal Member
Posts: 11708 From: LAND OF CONFUSION Registered: Mar 2012
the covers are iilegal in most states because of camera's.. it causes glare when a speed camera is clocking you from a airplane , or the cops new lazer guns that clock you and snap a photo so they can mail you a ticket, and lastly, the toll booth.. you run a toll both, the automated camera snap a pic.. they mail you a ticket.. they want the photo to be clear.. the covers are clear to your eye, but I'm betting that cover blocks a camera from see'n your plate.. THAT IS WHY YOU GOT TICKETED.. go take a photo. bet the plate can't be read.. even at 5 feet.. the cop knows this.. and 9 out of 10 people that buy them know this also.. and are why they buy them.. just like why people buy radar detectors.. good luck.. you should've got a fix it ticket.. I'd go to court asking that question.. going to the chief might work.. but I'd doubt it they are going to stand behind their troops. and don't know if you where an ass or not.. so I'd just fight the ticket, and ask why it wasn't a fix it ticket, it'll get dropped..
[This message has been edited by E.Furgal (edited 06-04-2012).]
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08:37 PM
donnie072003 Member
Posts: 1956 From: LaSalle, IL. Registered: Feb 2010
I've had the same thing happen to me here where I live. First I was made to remove my rear license cover that is just like yours bought at a local wal-mart. Keep in mind I had a LeBra on the front of the same car. A couple of months later I got pulled over for the bra. The area where the plate is all mesh. He made me cut that area out while he stood there to verify I did it. What an ass.
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08:43 PM
jscott1 Member
Posts: 21676 From: Houston, TX , USA Registered: Dec 2001
the covers are iilegal in most states because of camera's..
This is the bottom line.
More and more states are adding red light cameras, and automated toll road systems that rely on cameras for enforcement. Most states have modified their laws that ANYTHING covering the plate is illegal. Texas has such a law and 99% of the cars still leave the dealership with the illegal covers installed. The cop is just helping to educate the general public and sorry to say he was just doing his job.
You can hire a lawyer and fight it on principle and there is a chance you might beat it. But I would opt for probation and maybe you won't have any points on your license.
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08:48 PM
yellowstone Member
Posts: 9299 From: Düsseldorf/Germany Registered: Jun 2003
Yellowstone is that the cover in the first pic ? The clear one !??
If so, that is very, very weak at best.
By the finest line of the law it may be illegal, but i agree what someone else said,.... the cop probably saw your fancy car and just wanted to take a closer look. Heck he may have even been jealous.
Cops have discretion, and of all the things he could be enforcing that one in this instance seems just blatantly silly. BTW arguing (even nicely) with a cop is a 100% losing proposition. They are never wrong (wink).
So what's the purpose of putting a cover on your license plate anyway? To keep the plate clean? I know yours are new Yellowstone, but you have to admit we've all seen clouded-over, once-clear plastic covers on car license plates, or smoked covers where it's nearly impossible to read the numbers unless you're 15 feet directly behind the car during the day. You can't make anyone believe that these guys don't know their license plates are obscured. I don't have any sympathy for these guys.
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10:54 PM
yellowstone Member
Posts: 9299 From: Düsseldorf/Germany Registered: Jun 2003
Well as I cop I can tell you there are no quotas, and I really hate whoever started that rumor, because I hear it all the time. I can also tell you that every single person says that you (the cop) are wrong whenever you pull them over, or arrest them. So it would seem that cops only arrest innocent people. This is why the person who pulled you over wouldn’t go back 25’ to look at your plate. One, he is tired of everyone telling him he is wrong when he knows what he saw, two, he knows that he can’t convince you that he can’t read your plant from 25’ and knows that you probably have your plate memorized and so nothing can be proven by looking, three, safety. Everything an officer does comes down to safety. While all of us here on the forum know you wouldn’t wait for the cop to walk back 25’ then jump in your car and drive off or grab your gun and blast this guy, but he doesn’t know that.
I believe someone else mentioned how stores sell things that are for “off road use only”. This license plate cover is probably one of those things. I actually got pulled over once myself for having a blue light on inside my car. It wasn’t bright and it didn’t flash, but it was visible from the outside of the car. I bought that light at a local place, however blue lights are reserved for rescue vehicles, and my Fiero is not my patrol car.
It’s hard to be polite to everyone you come in contact with when you are constantly threated with being hit by cars zooming by at 70mph because no one knows how to change lanes, or people who hate the government and want to kill all police (which there is a big clan of these people in Missouri), or criminals who will do whatever it takes to not go to jail, or a good person who just panics, and when 99% of the people you come in contact with hate you for only trying to keep everyone safe and just wants you to go away, but when something happens to them they complain that you weren't there.
I agree that you should pull out a 25’ tape measure and take a picture and take that to court. You shouldn’t need a lawyer for that, or better yet, just stop by the PA’s office with the picture. PS, make sure you don't use a digital camera. If you can read your plate from that far back, your ticket should be gone without a problem. Good luck.
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03:34 AM
yellowstone Member
Posts: 9299 From: Düsseldorf/Germany Registered: Jun 2003
Originally posted by deloreanant: two, he knows that he can’t convince you that he can’t read your plant from 25’ and knows that you probably have your plate memorized and so nothing can be proven by looking
I was driving by him at 45 miles per hour when he stopped me. I don't think anyone can accurately measure 25 feet and if it's possible to read the plate this way. When the car is stationary, no problem.
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Originally posted by deloreanant: PS, make sure you don't use a digital camera.
Where am I going to find a camera with film? Last time I had one was in the 90's...
Originally posted by jscott1: It's impossible to prove something doesn't work.
They showed that it didn't work under the circumstances they tested it.
Doesn't mean that it can't work under other circumstances.
Please. It is not impossible to prove that something doesn't work. Millions of people prove every day that many things do not work, whether they are mentally capable of realizing it or not.
How light works, is a pretty well known thing. Trying to claim some magic spray defeats traffic cameras because it blinds the plate when a flash is used, is just nonsense. That isn't how light, traffic cameras, or clear coat (which is all that can of spray is), work.
That stuff works great in the photoshopped picture used to advertise it, though.
Originally posted by deloreanant: I agree that you should pull out a 25’ tape measure and take a picture and take that to court. You shouldn’t need a lawyer for that, or better yet, just stop by the PA’s office with the picture. PS, make sure you don't use a digital camera. If you can read your plate from that far back, your ticket should be gone without a problem. Good luck.
If you read the law as quoted above, it clearly states 100 feet is the requirement, not 25 feet.
Also, digital or film camera makes no difference. What does matter, is zoom. You would need to ensure that what the camera sees, is exactly what someone with 20/20 vision standing in the exact same spot, will see. An 18mm, 20mm, or 24mm prime lens would probably be best.
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