This Questions seems to be asked every now and then,so Im posting my experiance with a stored vehicle and fuel.The link contains an informative magazine artice. I actualley had this happen.My car sat in storage (2-1\2 years) while I did an engine swap (my license was suspended so I took my sweet time).Finalley came the day to start the motor,it cranked and cranked nothing.I called my mechanic friend of mine and figured out it wasnt getting any fuel.Even though a new fuel pump and pulsater (noise surpressor) were installed prior to the engine swap.After pulling the tank.I was totalley shocked to see so much rust! Loads,and Loads, of rust on the tank walls,sending unit and the ruber pulsater turned into a rasin.Loads of rusty Grit on the bottom.
[This message has been edited by James Bond 007 (edited 05-12-2012).]
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10:51 AM
PFF
System Bot
rogergarrison Member
Posts: 49601 From: A Western Caribbean Island/ Columbus, Ohio Registered: Apr 99
The popup is the Magazie article, to download. I uploaded (Not A Second Hand Article).I tried to post the article on Fiero Forum, but PIP Kept saying Error,probubley because the size was too big.I scaled down the Immages (To 270k) and It still says error.So thats why I ziped the article and posted on a file server.If I scaled it down any further, you probuley couldnt read the text.Be aware that there are three JPEG immages and Not an .exe program.Oh yea,by the way Im not some newbie postiing spam links.
Just downloaded and opened the artice,everything is fine...
[This message has been edited by James Bond 007 (edited 01-08-2012).]
AS YOU KNOW ALL GASOLINE SOLD IN THE USA MUST BE AT LEAST 10% ETHANOL [CORN ALCOHOL]. WHAT NO ONE HAS TOLD YOU IS THAT THE NEW GASOLINE CAN AND WILL RUIN YOUR ENGINE. IF YOU HAVE A OLDER OR "CLASSIC" CAR THE 90/10 FUEL IS CORROSIVE. IT WILL EAT THROUGH ALL OF THE NEOPRENE AND OTHER RUBBER LIKE LINES IT WILL COME IN CONTACT WITH. NEWER CARS HAVE UPGRADED THESE LINES TO ELIMINATE THE DISSOLVING OF THE LINES.
ALL CARS OLD AND NEW THAT USE THE FUEL WILL HAVE PROBLEMS. IT DRAWS WATER INTO YOUR FUEL SYSTEN INC INJECTORS, FUEL LINES, ETC. THE 90/10 WILL TURN FUEL INTO SLUDGE ID YOUR CAR IS LAID UP FOR AWHILE W/ FUEL IN THE TANK AND LINES. THE PRODUCT "STA-BIL" WILL KEEP THE FUEL FRESH LONGER IF IT IS IN YOUR TANK AND RUN THROUGH YOUR ENGINE. THE BEST ADDITIVE IS "STP'S" "MULTIPURPOSE MOTOR TREATMENT" 16 OZ BOTTLE TO 22 GALLONS OF 90/10 WILL SAVE YOUR ENGINE, PREVENT CORROSION, OXIDATION, WATER BUILD UP, GUMMING UP OF INJECTORS, ETC. YOU CAN EVEN PUT A LITTLE IN THE CRANKCASE.
IF YOU HAVE A VEHICLE THAT IS OLD OR WILL BE STANDING FOR A LENGTH OF TIME W/O RUNNING YOU NEED THIS ASAP. YOU CAN USE THIS SAME PRODUCT IN GAS OR DIESEL ENGINES. YOU CAN PUT IT IN YOUR BOAT, CAR, TRUCK, MOTORCYCLE, TRACTOR, CHAINSAW, LAWNMOWER, GENERATOR, ANYTHING THAT RUNS ON GAS OR DIESEL.
By M. Alex Johnson Reporter msnbc.com Rick Kitchings has been a small-engine mechanic for about 30 years, and he’s been busier than ever lately.
Recently, a customer came into his shop in Savannah, Ga., with a string trimmer that had barely been used. “It looked like it just came off the showroom floor, but the motor was absolutely shot, absolutely worn out,” Kitchings said.
The owner had fueled the trimmer with an gasoline-ethanol blend, which is becoming increasingly common thanks to a federal mandate to convert to biofuels.
Although the Web is rife with complaints from car owners who say ethanol damaged their engines, ethanol producers and automakers say it’s safe to use in cars. But smaller engines — the two-cycle utility engines in lawnmowers, chain saws and outboard boat motors — are another story.
Benjamin Mallisham, owner of a lawnmower repair shop in Tuscaloosa, Ala., said at least 40 percent of the lawnmower engines he repairs these days have been damaged by ethanol.
“When you put that ethanol in here, it eats up the insides or rusts them out,” Mallisham said. “All the rubber gaskets and parts — it eats those up.”
The sludge problem Auto mechanics say the same thing takes place in car engines, where debris dislodged by ethanol in gas station fuel tanks can gum things up. But car engines are highly sophisticated; especially in later models, they’re equipped to comfortably handle the fallout of ethanol-blended gas, mechanics said.
The Renewable Fuels Association, a trade group for ethanol producers based in Washington, says there’s no evidence that ethanol can damage smaller engines, either.
“Tests completed on lawnmowers, chainsaws, weed trimmers and blower vacs with ethanol fuels showed no engine failures, no unscheduled maintenance and good performance,” the association said.
But mechanics across the country insist that as gasoline blended with ethanol takes over in more gas stations, lawnmowers and boat motors everywhere are choking.
Advertise | AdChoices“They’re starving for gas, because the little needle holes in them are stopped up with the gel that happens when that stuff breaks down,” Mallisham said. “It stops them up so it can’t run.”
Here’s what happens: In smaller engines, ethanol can create a chain reaction of events that end up clogging valves and rusting out small metal parts — including, crucially, carburetors.
“When you mix ethanol with your fuel, you’ve now put a chemical substance in there that’s going to attract moisture, which is going to promote a quicker deterioration of the fuel that you have,” said Bob Magnotti, owner of Magnotti’s Small Engine Service in Roanoke, Va.
In effect, said Doug Ryms, a mechanic at Como Mower Service in Columbus, Ohio, “the alcohol actually dissipates the oil. So on a two-cycle engine, you’re lubricating the engine, but the oil is being pushed away, so it’s actually not lubricating the engine.”
That creates a gummy residue, called shellack, that clogs filters and hoses. And it does no good to follow the rocking-chair wisdom that says you’ll be fine if you drain the tank before you gas it back up.
“People will tell you you can take the gas out of them and it won’t happen, but it’s the residue that does the damage,” Mallisham said.
Ethanol already under pressure Most gasoline sold in the United States is now mixed with up to 10 percent ethanol, according to industry estimates. Use of the blended fuel, often called E10, has grown with a federal mandate designed to boost the levels of renewable fuels at the pump. In many areas, it’s the only gasoline widely sold.
The fuel blend has been the focus of debate in recent months as analysts and some farmers say the diversion of corn to ethanol production has led to higher prices for corn in its use as a food crop. The Environmental Protection Agency is considering a request for a temporary 50 percent cut in new mandates for ethanol production because of concern that they are helping drive up food costs.
In a study released this week, researchers at Purdue University in Indiana found that corn prices had risen to $4 a bushel, the highest in a decade, largely because of the higher prices farmers can demand from fuel producers.
“Three dollars was just because the price of oil went up and the market demanded more ethanol to substitute for gasoline,” said Wallace E. Tyner, co-director of Purdue’s Center for Global Trade Analysis.
David Summers, a biofuels researcher at Missouri University of Science and Technology in Rolla, said that while ethanol was cheaper to produce than pure gasoline because it is subsidized, vehicles may also get fewer miles to the gallon.
Advertise | AdChoices“It was the wonder fuel to get us out of trouble — and it won’t,” he said.
When you add in its tendency to damage some engines, many mechanics and green fuel advocates are asking whether ethanol is worth it.
“There is no massive PR machine working to point out the downsides of ethanol, like there is on the other side,” said Christa Westerberg, a lawyer in Stoughton, Wis., who has represented opponents of ethanol plants in Wisconsin.
Rick Kitchings, the mechanic in Georgia, said consumers simply should insist on pure gasoline for their small utility engines.
“Theoretically, avoid ethanol,” he said. “Avoid ethanol.”
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04:48 PM
James Bond 007 Member
Posts: 8868 From: California.U.S.A. Registered: Dec 2002
I don't really believe the hype as any petrol will clean grease and dissolve rubber i put every problem down to poor maintenance rather than perfectly good parts corroding. It will strip rust from tanks but tanks don't rust if full. You really buying a fuel that could easily have a higher combustion rate than it has it can be cleaner than gas. The present problem is paying the premium to start it up as a business and is using a diluted product. Over time the quality will rise. It is in gas companies best interest to sell it as will be most profitable over time but not looking to promote it over gas as long as gas is the primary business.
Blather. I do and have run ethanol in everything I own for decades now. I'm so surprised my 1950 Chicago Pneumatic compressor, my 1964 Parkmaster Toro, the 1959 Olds, the 1954 Ferguson, even the early 40's Farmall C are all still going without issues. My nephew runs it in his 68 Triumph GT6 as well as his triumph motorcycles. BTW, the 1984 Moto Guzzi is in it's 2nd hundred thousand on the odometer. I ran it my GS1100 EZ Suzuki. I put 287000 miles on a conversion van making trips to Virginia, Disney World, the Badlands, Arizona, etc. We run it in weed eaters, chainsaws and everything else. Damn funny I don't see cars stranded all up and down the sides of the roads here in ethanol enriched Iowa. Just try regular maintenance.
Just more information on the topic from the net, what you choose to do with it is up to you. There is always more than one side to the story this is just one, I always encourage my friends to do their own research so they can make an educated decision.
**********a lot of this info comes from sites that are bias one way or another so please do your own research, I am just sharing what I found ********
Due to the instability of gas containing alcohol, shelf life is less than 3 months. •Fuel Testers recommends testing gasoline for alcohol at the pumps before purchase. Alcohol Fuel Test Kits will assure gas contains 10% or less ethanol. ORDER a Gas Test Kit. •A profit motive exists to over-blend more than 10% (legal limit) ethanol into gas; Due to government ethanol tax credits and subsidies supported by taxpayers.
Precautions/Tips For Use of E10 Gas
1. Test gas for alcohol presence and to assure it is below the legal limit of 10%. Gas alcohol levels above 10 percent can cause major damage to many engines. The % of ethanol found at individual gas pumps vary and change daily with each gasoline delivery. Ethanol is usually added by the local fuel distributors/suppliers, not at the major gas brand company refineries.Inexpensive portable Fuel Test Kits that check presence of water and alcohol in gas are now available.
2. Replace the gas in your fuel tank at least every 2-3 weeks. The shelf life of E-10 gas is only 3 months (90-100 days) under ideal environmental conditions.
3. Know the specific fuel laws for your state. Many states still do not require the labeling of E10 gas at the pumps. View state ethanol labeling laws. http://www.fuel-testers.com...de_ethanol_laws.html
Note: In October 2010 the EPA approved an application from ACE, Growth Energy and 54 ethanol producers seeking to increase E10 to 15% ethanol. In December '10 engine manufacturers filed a class action lawsuit to stop the increase. Plus debates continue on how to label pumps to warn consumers that engine manufacturers disapprove of E15 and use of this new fuel type will invalidate warranties for fuel system repairs... 4. Check your owner's manual for fuel type recommended. Older engines (prior to about 1998) and several other vehicles (e.g. marine, lawn equipment) do not permit the use of alcohol fuels. Engines that require higher octane grade fuels often experience drivability problems and part damage from the use of E10 gas.
5. Prevent external water and moisture (high humidity) from coming in contact with E-10 gas.
6. Ethanol-blend fuels will lower MPG in most engines; Fuel efficiency can decrease by 2-40%. Maintain your engine to provide the best possible fuel efficiency. (Inflate tires, keep tuned, etc.). View more information on fuel efficiency and mpg of E-10 gas.
7. Chose an octane level above 89, for an added level of security when purchasing E-10 gas. If water contaminates (WC) your gas, the fuel will dilute and the octane level can drop up to 4 points.
8. Avoid all fuel additives and fuel system treatment products that contain ethanol or are alcohol-based, Most octane boosters and fuel system cleansers contain alcohol. View gas additive list.
9. Become familiar with symptoms and effects of "bad gas", often caused by too high alcohol levels of gas. Symptoms include varied malfunctions including stalling, hesitation, smoke released from exhaust, clogged fuel filters and carburetors, damage to fuel pumps, pistons and injectors, disintegration and dissolving of engine parts (especially rubber and plastic), drying-out of parts (hoses), and more.
10. Save money - Contaminated gas can not be restored to the original composition. No miracle product or ingredient exists that will completely prevent all water absorption or safely repair phase separated (PS) gas.
11. Frequently check gasoline tank for signs of Water Contamination (WC) and Phase Seperation (PS). Two or three distinct layers will be seen after WC and PS occur.
12. Check engine manufacturer warranty for details and consequences of alcohol fuel use. Most engine warranties exclude repairs caused by the use of fuel containing over 10% ethanol or water contamination.
13. Install a water-separator filter (10 micron or better),
14. Store E-10 and E-85 ethanol gas in clean and dry alcohol-resistant tanks. Fuel discoloration indicates gas contamination, often caused from the release (cleansing) of rust, dirt and sediment from the gas tank walls.
15. Properly discard any fuel that appears to have gone bad.
16. Keep your engine well tuned and lubricated and follow the manufacturers recommended maintenance schedule. Replace parts that are not resistant to alcohol.Plastic and rubber parts and hoses are most vulnerable. Fuel system and pumps, piston and carburetor and timing may need changes to be compatible. Older engines often contain parts not designed to resist ethanol/alcohol.
17. Be aware that "private" gas pumps (EG. marine fuel) are not always required to follow the same laws that pertain to public stations. In most states private marine stations are "allowed" to sell non-ethanol gas, but many do not. This is usually because their fuel suppliers no longer distribute non-ethanol gas and/or due to higher profit margin for E10 (due to goverment funded ethanol subsidies and tax credits).
18. Airplanes (all aircraft) are exempt from using ethanol blends and all alcohol fuels.
19. Many types of engines are not designed for the use of alcohol fuel. This may include older cars and outboards, lawn and other small gas-powered equipment. Only during the past 5-10 years, have the manufacturers' re-designed engines, when necessary, to be compatible with E-10 gas. View Manufacturer Ethanol Recommendations and Warnings.
20. State laws vary widely regarding distribution and pump labeling requirements. Some states mandate ethanol in conventional gas, some allow premium without ethanol, some do NOT require pump labeling to inform consumer when alcohol is added. It is important to know current laws in your area.
MORE INFORMATION - Review our website directory/index for more ethanol and gasoline information.
Alcohol in E10 ethanol gasoline has caused engine problems & damage, especially to older vehicles and marine outboard boat motors. E10 gasoline causes many more problems and disadvantages than benefits. E85 fuels used only in flex fuel vehicles is far more advantageous. E-85 flex-fuel is not a perfect solution, but it does help to decrease our dependence on foreign oil.
The United States must take the necessary steps to provide a beneficial type of alternative/renewable NON-petroleum fuel in the near future. Possibilities include hybrid automobiles, electric vehicles and future engines powered by wind/solar, hydrogen fuel cells, natural gas and more.
With all the negative consequences of ethanol (risk of parts damage, gas contamination, lower mpg, etc.) it seems ethanol is most beneficial (profitable) to the ethanol producers E.G. ACE, American Coalition for Ethanol and Growth Energy.
[This message has been edited by troyboy (edited 01-09-2012).]
Blather. I do and have run ethanol in everything I own for decades now. I'm so surprised my 1950 Chicago Pneumatic compressor, my 1964 Parkmaster Toro, the 1959 Olds, the 1954 Ferguson, even the early 40's Farmall C are all still going without issues. My nephew runs it in his 68 Triumph GT6 as well as his triumph motorcycles. BTW, the 1984 Moto Guzzi is in it's 2nd hundred thousand on the odometer. I ran it my GS1100 EZ Suzuki. I put 287000 miles on a conversion van making trips to Virginia, Disney World, the Badlands, Arizona, etc. We run it in weed eaters, chainsaws and everything else. Damn funny I don't see cars stranded all up and down the sides of the roads here in ethanol enriched Iowa. Just try regular maintenance.
Just an FYI, check your warranties and Check your owner's manual .
**********a lot of this info comes from sites that are bias one way or another so please do your own research, I am just sharing what I found ********
Marine, Automobiles, Motorcycles, Recreational Vehicles, ATV's, Snowmobiles, Lawn and Gas Powered Equipment E10 Fuel Use Tips: #1 Check your owner's manual to determine if your engine was designed to run on E10 blends of fuel.
#2 Many engines manufactured prior to the late 1990's were not designed for E10 oxygenated renewable (reformulated) fuels.
#3 Modifications can be made to most engines to enable use of E10 gas; (Check with your mechanic, may require replacement of parts).
#4 All manufacturers currently prohibit use of gas containing over 10% ethanol, and most warranties clearly state that repairs will not be covered when gas in tank contains over 10% legal limit of ethanol. In the U.S. only flex-fuel vehicles are designed to use over 10% ethanol (E85). Check your gas cap.
Listed below are examples of some engines whose manufacturers issued warnings or prohibit use of E10:
Marine - Boats
* Manufacturers that prohibit use of E10 fuel or issue warnings include:
Bombardier - Prohibits use of E10 fuel - Quote, "Never use fuel containing alcohol...". See note.
Mercury Marine - Prohibits use of E10 fuel - Quote, "We do not recommend the use of gasoline which contains alcohol because of the possible adverse effect the alcohol may have on the fuel system...may cause the following problems: corrosion of metal parts, deterioration of plastic parts, damage of internal parts, starting and operating difficulties, and water lock.". See note.
Nissan - E10 warnings/precautions only - Quote, "Gasoline containing alcohol may cause: wear and damage to bearings, cams, pistons and piston gears, corrosion of metal parts, deterioration of rubber and plastic parts, idling and performance problems.".
Outboard Marine Corporation (OMC) - E10 warnings/precautions only - Quote, "Alcohol attracts and holds moisture that can cause corrosion of metallic parts in the fuel system and can cause engine performance problems.". (OMC was acquired by BRP Bombardier Recreational Products at the end of 2003.
Pleasurecraft Engine Group - Prohibits use of E10 fuel - Quote, "Gasoline containing alcohol is not recommended for use in your engine and may cause the following: hard starting and operating difficulties, corrosion of metal parts, excessive wear and damage to internal engine parts, fuel permeation through flexible fuel lines, and deterioration of some nonmetallic parts.". See note.
Suzuki - E10 warnings/precautions only - Quote, "Suzuki highly recommends that you use alcohol-free unleaded gasoline whenever possible..."
Automobiles
* Manufacturers that prohibit use of E10 fuel or issue warnings include:
Ferrari - Prohibits use of E10 fuel - "...we suggest that our customers not use alcohol fuel in our vehicles.".
Hyundai - E10 warnings/precautions only - Quote, "If your engine develops driveability problems, the use of 100% unleaded gasoline is recommended.".
Kia - E10 warnings/precautions only - Quote, "Discontinue using gasahol of any kind if driveability problems occur...".
Porsche - E10 warnings/precautions only- Quote, "...change to a different fuel or station if any of the following problems occur: deterioration of driveability and performance, substantially reduced fuel economy, vapor lock, and engine malfunction or stalling".
Volkswagen/Audi - E10 warnings/precautions only - Quote, "If you experience a loss of fuel economy or driveability and performance problems due to the use of [ethanol blends], we recommend that you switch to unblended fuel.".
Manufacturers that allow use of E10 fuel includes: Bentley - BMW - DaimlerChrysler - Ford - General Motors - Honda/Acura - Hyundai - Isuzu - Jaguar - Kia - Land Rover - Mazda - Mercedes-Benz - Mitsubishi - Nissan/Infiniti - Porsche - Rolls Royce - Saab - Subaru - Suzuki - Toyota - Volkswagen/Audi - Volvo Request Full Report (PDF File)
Motorcycles
* Manufacturers that prohibit use of E10 fuel or issue warnings include:
Ducati - Prohibits use of E10 fuel - Quote, "Additives to fuel or lubricants are not allowed.".
Harley Davidson - E10 warnings/precautions only - Quote, "You may find that some [ethanol] gasoline blends affect the starting, driveability, or fuel efficiency of your motorcycle. If you experience one or more of these problems, it is recommended you operate your motorcycle on straight unleaded gasoline.".
Suzuki - E10 warnings/precautions only - Quote, "If you are not satisfied with the driveability or fuel economy with your motorcycle when you are using an oxygenated fuel, you should switch back to regular unleaded gasoline.".
Manufacturers that allow use of E10 fuel include: BMW - Honda - Kawasaki - Polaris - Yamaha Request Full Report (PDF File)
Lawn Equipment
* Manufacturers that prohibit use of E10 fuel or issue warnings include:
Ariens (EZR Easy Turn Mower) - Prohibits use of E10 fuel - Quote, "DO NOT use gasohol ot gasoline containing alcohol. Alcohol will cause internal parts to deteriorate.".
Murray (Lawn Tractor) - E10 warnings/precautions only - Quote, "A mixture of alcohol and gasoline will attract moisture and cause acid deposits during storage.".
Poulan (Chain Saw) - E10 warnings/precautions only - Quote, "Experience indicates that alcohol blended fuels can attract moisture which leads to fuel mixture separation and formation of acids during storage."
Sears (Craftsman Tiller) - E10 warnings/precautions only - Quote, "Experience indicates that alcohol blended fuels can attract moisture which leads to fuel mixture separation and formation of acids during storage.".
Briggs and Stratton - E10 warnings/precautions only - Quote, "Some fuels are gasoline blended with alcohols or ethers. Excessive amounts of these blends can damage the fuel system or cause performance problems. If any undesirable operating conditions occur, use gasoline with a lower percentage of alcohol or ether."
Honda - "Before using an oxygenated fuel, try to confirm the fuel’s contents. Some states/provinces require this information to be posted on the pump..."
Manufacturers that allow use of E10 fuel includes:
Agco (500 Series Lawn Tractor) - Billy Goat (Quiet Blow Blower) - Echo (Grass Trimmer, Power Blower, Tiller/Cultivator) - Homelite (Ranger Chain Saw, Yard Broom) - Honda (Rotary Lawn Mower) - Husqvarna (Ranger 55 Chain Saw) - John Deere (Rotary Lawn Mower, Snowblowers) - Lawn Boy (GoldPro Series Lawn Mower) - Manties (Tiller Model) - Massey Ferguson (Lawn Tractor) - Simplicity (Lawn Tractor) - Snapper (Riding Mowers) - Toro (Lawn Mower) - Troy Bilt (Tillers) - Kohler - Tecumseh Products Company. - Data from Herman & Associates, 2003 POWER EQUIPMENT FUEL RECOMMENDATIONS. Request Full Report (PDF File)
Small Gas-Powered Equipment
Manufacturers that prohibit use of E10 fuel or issue warnings include:
Generac Power Systems (Portable Power Generator) - E10 warnings/precautions only - Quote, "Alcohol blended fuels can attract moisture which leads to separation and formation of acids during storage.".
TECUMSEH PRODUCTS COMPANY - "Today’s fuels have a short shelf life and it is recommended that you buy no more than a two week supply at a time...10% ethanol can be used if unleaded regular gasoline is not available..."
Manufacturers that allow use of E10 fuel includes: Coleman (Powermate Pressure Washer). Request Full Report (PDF File)
Recreational Vehicles, ATV's, Snowmobiles Will be added soon. Artic Cat, Polaris and more... VIEW SAMPLE REPORT DOCUMENT BELOW, IN PDF-IMAGE FORMAT
Heavy Duty Diesel Manufacturer Fuel Recommendations (Biodiesel) (Biodiesel is a fuel that can be made from a variety of sources, primarily from cooking oil waste, soybean oil or rapeseed oil).
"Mixtures of diesel fuels with other fuels and liquids, e.g. gasoline, kerosene, ethanol, methanol, and additives (available in the aftermarket, e.g. lubricity, flow, cetane-improver) are not allowed."
CATERPILLAR: Caterpillar neither approves nor prohibits the use of biodiesel fuels. Failures resulting from the use of any fuel are not Caterpillar factory defects and therefore the cost of repair would NOT be covered by Caterpillar’s warranty.
CUMMINS: "Under no circumstances must gasoline or alcohol be used to dilute diesel fuel. This practice creates an extreme fire hazard and under certain circumstances an explosive hazard."
Additional information will be added later. Detroit Diesel, GENERAL MOTORS, INTERNATIONAL TRUCK AND ENGINE CORPORATION, ISUZU, JOHN DEERE and Others...
* Data from Ethanol RFA, Renewable Fuel Association reports published by Herman & Associates and EPA between 2003-2006). Include engine type to Request Full Report (PDF File)
I was in Oklahoma City a few months ago and saw a number of stations selling gas with no ethanol added so I have some doubt that it is a legal mandate to include ethanol in the gas. However, most fuel sold has a maximum legal content of 10% ethanol (E85 excepted).
Nelson
quote
Originally posted by troyboy:
AS YOU KNOW ALL GASOLINE SOLD IN THE USA MUST BE AT LEAST 10% ETHANOL [CORN ALCOHOL]. WHAT NO ONE HAS TOLD YOU IS THAT THE NEW GASOLINE CAN AND WILL RUIN YOUR ENGINE. IF YOU HAVE A OLDER OR "CLASSIC" CAR THE 90/10 FUEL IS CORROSIVE. IT WILL EAT THROUGH ALL OF THE NEOPRENE AND OTHER RUBBER LIKE LINES IT WILL COME IN CONTACT WITH. NEWER CARS HAVE UPGRADED THESE LINES TO ELIMINATE THE DISSOLVING OF THE LINES.
ALL CARS OLD AND NEW THAT USE THE FUEL WILL HAVE PROBLEMS. IT DRAWS WATER INTO YOUR FUEL SYSTEN INC INJECTORS, FUEL LINES, ETC. THE 90/10 WILL TURN FUEL INTO SLUDGE ID YOUR CAR IS LAID UP FOR AWHILE W/ FUEL IN THE TANK AND LINES. THE PRODUCT "STA-BIL" WILL KEEP THE FUEL FRESH LONGER IF IT IS IN YOUR TANK AND RUN THROUGH YOUR ENGINE. THE BEST ADDITIVE IS "STP'S" "MULTIPURPOSE MOTOR TREATMENT" 16 OZ BOTTLE TO 22 GALLONS OF 90/10 WILL SAVE YOUR ENGINE, PREVENT CORROSION, OXIDATION, WATER BUILD UP, GUMMING UP OF INJECTORS, ETC. YOU CAN EVEN PUT A LITTLE IN THE CRANKCASE.
IF YOU HAVE A VEHICLE THAT IS OLD OR WILL BE STANDING FOR A LENGTH OF TIME W/O RUNNING YOU NEED THIS ASAP. YOU CAN USE THIS SAME PRODUCT IN GAS OR DIESEL ENGINES. YOU CAN PUT IT IN YOUR BOAT, CAR, TRUCK, MOTORCYCLE, TRACTOR, CHAINSAW, LAWNMOWER, GENERATOR, ANYTHING THAT RUNS ON GAS OR DIESEL.
By M. Alex Johnson Reporter msnbc.com Rick Kitchings has been a small-engine mechanic for about 30 years, and he’s been busier than ever lately.
Recently, a customer came into his shop in Savannah, Ga., with a string trimmer that had barely been used. “It looked like it just came off the showroom floor, but the motor was absolutely shot, absolutely worn out,” Kitchings said.
The owner had fueled the trimmer with an gasoline-ethanol blend, which is becoming increasingly common thanks to a federal mandate to convert to biofuels.
Although the Web is rife with complaints from car owners who say ethanol damaged their engines, ethanol producers and automakers say it’s safe to use in cars. But smaller engines — the two-cycle utility engines in lawnmowers, chain saws and outboard boat motors — are another story.
Benjamin Mallisham, owner of a lawnmower repair shop in Tuscaloosa, Ala., said at least 40 percent of the lawnmower engines he repairs these days have been damaged by ethanol.
“When you put that ethanol in here, it eats up the insides or rusts them out,” Mallisham said. “All the rubber gaskets and parts — it eats those up.”
The sludge problem Auto mechanics say the same thing takes place in car engines, where debris dislodged by ethanol in gas station fuel tanks can gum things up. But car engines are highly sophisticated; especially in later models, they’re equipped to comfortably handle the fallout of ethanol-blended gas, mechanics said.
The Renewable Fuels Association, a trade group for ethanol producers based in Washington, says there’s no evidence that ethanol can damage smaller engines, either.
“Tests completed on lawnmowers, chainsaws, weed trimmers and blower vacs with ethanol fuels showed no engine failures, no unscheduled maintenance and good performance,” the association said.
But mechanics across the country insist that as gasoline blended with ethanol takes over in more gas stations, lawnmowers and boat motors everywhere are choking.
Advertise | AdChoices“They’re starving for gas, because the little needle holes in them are stopped up with the gel that happens when that stuff breaks down,” Mallisham said. “It stops them up so it can’t run.”
Here’s what happens: In smaller engines, ethanol can create a chain reaction of events that end up clogging valves and rusting out small metal parts — including, crucially, carburetors.
“When you mix ethanol with your fuel, you’ve now put a chemical substance in there that’s going to attract moisture, which is going to promote a quicker deterioration of the fuel that you have,” said Bob Magnotti, owner of Magnotti’s Small Engine Service in Roanoke, Va.
In effect, said Doug Ryms, a mechanic at Como Mower Service in Columbus, Ohio, “the alcohol actually dissipates the oil. So on a two-cycle engine, you’re lubricating the engine, but the oil is being pushed away, so it’s actually not lubricating the engine.”
That creates a gummy residue, called shellack, that clogs filters and hoses. And it does no good to follow the rocking-chair wisdom that says you’ll be fine if you drain the tank before you gas it back up.
“People will tell you you can take the gas out of them and it won’t happen, but it’s the residue that does the damage,” Mallisham said.
Ethanol already under pressure Most gasoline sold in the United States is now mixed with up to 10 percent ethanol, according to industry estimates. Use of the blended fuel, often called E10, has grown with a federal mandate designed to boost the levels of renewable fuels at the pump. In many areas, it’s the only gasoline widely sold.
The fuel blend has been the focus of debate in recent months as analysts and some farmers say the diversion of corn to ethanol production has led to higher prices for corn in its use as a food crop. The Environmental Protection Agency is considering a request for a temporary 50 percent cut in new mandates for ethanol production because of concern that they are helping drive up food costs.
In a study released this week, researchers at Purdue University in Indiana found that corn prices had risen to $4 a bushel, the highest in a decade, largely because of the higher prices farmers can demand from fuel producers.
“Three dollars was just because the price of oil went up and the market demanded more ethanol to substitute for gasoline,” said Wallace E. Tyner, co-director of Purdue’s Center for Global Trade Analysis.
David Summers, a biofuels researcher at Missouri University of Science and Technology in Rolla, said that while ethanol was cheaper to produce than pure gasoline because it is subsidized, vehicles may also get fewer miles to the gallon.
Advertise | AdChoices“It was the wonder fuel to get us out of trouble — and it won’t,” he said.
When you add in its tendency to damage some engines, many mechanics and green fuel advocates are asking whether ethanol is worth it.
“There is no massive PR machine working to point out the downsides of ethanol, like there is on the other side,” said Christa Westerberg, a lawyer in Stoughton, Wis., who has represented opponents of ethanol plants in Wisconsin.
Rick Kitchings, the mechanic in Georgia, said consumers simply should insist on pure gasoline for their small utility engines.
“Theoretically, avoid ethanol,” he said. “Avoid ethanol.”
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10:53 AM
rogergarrison Member
Posts: 49601 From: A Western Caribbean Island/ Columbus, Ohio Registered: Apr 99
" 2. Replace the gas in your fuel tank at least every 2-3 weeks. The shelf life of E-10 gas is only 3 months (90-100 days) under ideal environmental conditions. "
This is what Im been practicing for many years. Ive never had a problem with any gasoline engine doing so. When I did happen to vary it on something, immediately had problems (gas generator in one instance, snow blower in another). I never keep more than a few days of errands fuel in anything unless Im going on a trip or know im going to use it all in a few weeks.
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11:48 AM
PFF
System Bot
May 12th, 2012
James Bond 007 Member
Posts: 8868 From: California.U.S.A. Registered: Dec 2002
If you are really that concerned... just run straight E85 instead of E10... the only point that article trys to make is the fact that heavily water contaminated e10 is not good for you.... Which is true its also hard to replicate... And this is a special circumstance.
so basicly they are just saying that contaminated gasoline will rust your internals..... well i could have to you that! bleach does a good job of that as well.
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09:49 PM
May 13th, 2012
Australian Member
Posts: 4701 From: Sydney Australia Registered: Sep 2004
Fuel systems corroded and rusted up long before ethanol came around. Stop looking for new answers to old problems.
Agree - older farm tractor use to have a water drain valve (although I suspect this had more to do with water getting into the fuel after the fact). Even when I rebuilt my 4.9 Fiero, the fuel tank had rust in it and it was parked well before ethanol was even considered being used (had to have it steamed and relined) - and it was sealed (ie: no damaged hoses, cap on, etc).
Also those of us that live in the northern climates would be familar with the use of gasline antifreeze, which is methanol - just another alcohol type products that asorbs water. The idea was to asorb the water al allow it to pass throught the system vs. it sitting in it and freezing causing other problems.
The main problem stems from engines that sit for periods of time - if it has regular use, IMHO, it shouldn't be a problem. 'Most' small engines fit into this category of sitting for long times between uses (especially 'seasonal' ones). I personally will either drain the tanks or add some Stabil before storage - if I am concerned, I will fill the tank with premium when I go to use it again next season.
As for the list of manufacturers that do not recommend use of ethanol - if you notice they are either seasonal products or high performance products that require premium fuel (which do not include ethanol) to be used in them. Take Harley for example, they recommend a min of 91 octane (never seen this grade contain ethanol) - will it run on lower grade, yes - but not as well. Same goes for Ferrari and the rest.
Bottom line this is just going to have to be one of those things we are going to have to deal with, just like we did when they made the switch from leaded gas to unleaded.
[This message has been edited by Mickey_Moose (edited 05-13-2012).]
