I work at chevrolet dealership and I check in the new cars. We just started getting the new Impalas in last month. They have a new 3.6 direct injected V6 rated @300 hp and around 280ft llbs tq. Theses dang cars will FLY!!! I could only imagine what it would feel like in a fiero. Go test drive one of these, power comes on real quick..... If anyone is serious about trying to install one, let me know if you need some pics and i'll pull one in the shop at take some for you......... Here'sa pic http://images.dealerrevs.co...hoto.php?id=53519485
The 3800SC's make 240hp with 280ft/lbs of torque. These newer engines are just more expensive and there is not a lot lying around to swap. With a pulley upgrade on the SC, you can easily get to 300hp. Plus, the series III are rated at 260hp. I think the 3800 will continue to dominate for the next few years.
IP: Logged
02:15 PM
BlackGT Codde Member
Posts: 1107 From: Gallup, New Mexico Registered: Mar 2008
um yeah i work at the chevy dealer too, drive a series III s/c grand prix first, the impala just has a different shift pattern programmed in to feel like it has more power, yeah powerful motor but ask your journeyman about how many timing chain sets they have replaced on those stupid piles of junk. ive seen the traverse come in with 11k miles and the timing chains are soo stretched that it will only run in limp mode. multiple saturn outlooks, gmc acadia's , buick enclave's, caddillac cts's every time its either the 3.0 or the 3.6 vvt direct injected, plus have you changed oil in one recently, you need a freaking welding suit to do it. ps: im pretty sure someone has dyno'd one of these engines and it doesnt come close to 300hp, more like 250hp they were pretty upset with chevy for lying about the numbers.
Right there with you BlackGT Codde, I work at carmax and have seen several acadias with low mileage getting their timing chains done, also we have a former GM tech who said all day long was nothing but acadias (or other 3.6vvt) with the cars in the air and engines on the ground. It sucks too because I bet there is some potential with it.
Oh yeah, I have burn scars too from oil changing, thank you GM, I really like the oil filter right next to the catalytic converter!!!!!
"ps: im pretty sure someone has dyno'd one of these engines and it doesnt come close to 300hp, more like 250hp they were pretty upset with chevy for lying about the numbers."
I'm pretty sure there have been close to 0 timing chain replacements on the LFX, which itself has many design changes meant to fix the timing chain issues on the previous gen 3.6 engines that are common. FWIW, the 3.6 is really the only High Feature engine where the timing chain issues seem to be a real problem. I've searched hard for complaints about the 2.8 LP9 in the Saabs, but haven't actually found any yet.
Also, about the dyno numbers, the GM numbers are at the crank, not the wheels. There are other changes that affect the ratings across models, like intake, exhaust, and timing. I would expect a 306 HP rated LLT to make about 253 at the wheels as in the posted video. It's pretty much spot on. Go take that stock Series III 3800 SC to a dyno and see if it makes that 265 HP at the wheels. Good luck getting that to happen.
Also, about the dyno numbers, the GM numbers are at the crank, not the wheels. There are other changes that affect the ratings across models, like intake, exhaust, and timing. I would expect a 306 HP rated LLT to make about 253 at the wheels as in the posted video. It's pretty much spot on. Go take that stock Series III 3800 SC to a dyno and see if it makes that 265 HP at the wheels. Good luck getting that to happen.
Unless I'm mistaken, gov't regulations require readings from the crank with all engine accessories belted up. I kind of remember Honda getting in a bit of trouble for not posting numbers correctly on the Accord. (deliberately)
Originally posted by weaselbeak: Unless I'm mistaken, gov't regulations require readings from the crank with all engine accessories belted up. I kind of remember Honda getting in a bit of trouble for not posting numbers correctly on the Accord. (deliberately)
But either way, those numbers are not the same as you're going to see at the wheels taking it to your local dyno down the street, which may have other factors at play too. The factory numbers are from an engine dyno in a controlled environment. Wheel dyno numbers are from an environment of total anarchy, and with transmission and the rest of the drivetrain there to count for losses. Being upset because you bought a 300 hp V6 Camaro, and only seeing 240-250 hp at a random "performance shop" dyno at the wheels, is a bit naive.
My father just bought a 2008 Cadillac CTS4 with the 300HP DI V6, and it is nice. The car itself is too heavy, and the electronic throttle just feels weird and unresponsive.
IP: Logged
05:33 PM
PFF
System Bot
KaijuSenso Member
Posts: 911 From: Westland, MI Registered: Jan 2007
um yeah i work at the chevy dealer too, drive a series III s/c grand prix first, the impala just has a different shift pattern programmed in to feel like it has more power, yeah powerful motor but ask your journeyman about how many timing chain sets they have replaced on those stupid piles of junk. ive seen the traverse come in with 11k miles and the timing chains are soo stretched that it will only run in limp mode. multiple saturn outlooks, gmc acadia's , buick enclave's, caddillac cts's every time its either the 3.0 or the 3.6 vvt direct injected, plus have you changed oil in one recently, you need a freaking welding suit to do it. ps: im pretty sure someone has dyno'd one of these engines and it doesnt come close to 300hp, more like 250hp they were pretty upset with chevy for lying about the numbers.
That video says it was 98 degrees F when they did the pull!! Other then what was already mentioned about it being wheel HP and not crank HP, going back to the dyno on a 70 degree day will increase those numbers by a good margin.
I have to say that Camaro sounds nice though.
[This message has been edited by KaijuSenso (edited 09-27-2011).]
My father just bought a 2008 Cadillac CTS4 with the 300HP DI V6, and it is nice. The car itself is too heavy, and the electronic throttle just feels weird and unresponsive.
Originally posted by KaijuSenso: That video says it was 98 degrees F when they did the pull!! Other then what was already mentioned about it being wheel HP and not crank HP, going back to the dyno on a 70 degree day will increase those numbers by a good margin.
I have to say that Camaro sounds nice though.
Probably won't increase the numbers that much going on a 70 degree day. Maybe by 5-10. Sounds like it might an automatic, and for an otherwise stock Camaro, it seems pretty much dead on the numbers for an automatic with CAI and cat-back exhaust, neither of which really do anything for making more power beyond maybe netting a few HP.
IP: Logged
06:49 PM
Sep 28th, 2011
L67 Member
Posts: 1792 From: Winston Salem, NC Registered: Jun 2010
Originally posted by dobey: Go take that stock Series III 3800 SC to a dyno and see if it makes that 265 HP at the wheels.
I don't think anyone on earth drives a stock Series III 3800 SC anymore.... every engine is lightly modded and making more torque than the LLT. (/troll) You are set in your ways, aren't you.
IP: Logged
01:50 AM
BlackGT Codde Member
Posts: 1107 From: Gallup, New Mexico Registered: Mar 2008
well im sorry if i came across as bitter to the op about this engine, but i have a distaste for gm junk from nowadays. examples: pontiac g6(nice cars dont get me wrong) right front lower ball joint failures very common, left front not long after, impala/grand prix rear sway bar links, always loose and making racket, door handles seem to break quite often on some newer buicks(very cheap plastic anchors in the handle). try changing oil in a 2.2L pr cavalier with auto trans(near impossible), leaking trans cooler lines on the 1500/2500/3500 series trucks, ... i could go on and on back on topic, the 3.6 in the impala does not feel like it really has 300 hp. if someone told me that it did, would have to have them dyno it just to convince me these timing chain issues are very real and arent just a fluke, it happens on ALL different 3.6l vvt engines
[This message has been edited by BlackGT Codde (edited 09-28-2011).]
well im sorry if i came across as bitter to the op about this engine, but i have a distaste for gm junk from nowadays. examples: pontiac g6(nice cars dont get me wrong) right front lower ball joint failures very common, left front not long after, impala/grand prix rear sway bar links, always loose and making racket, door handles seem to break quite often on some newer buicks(very cheap plastic anchors in the handle). try changing oil in a 2.2L pr cavalier with auto trans(near impossible), leaking trans cooler lines on the 1500/2500/3500 series trucks, ... i could go on and on back on topic, the 3.6 in the impala does not feel like it really has 300 hp. if someone told me that it did, would have to have them dyno it just to convince me these timing chain issues are very real and arent just a fluke, it happens on ALL different 3.6l vvt engines
That Cavalier oil filter is a bit of a pain, but not a big problem, you are doing something wrong.....as for GM, they caught 7 kinds of hell for their lousy cars 25 years ago. But 80% of what I see still on the road from the 1980's are BOP cars, not Toyotas or Hondas, and most certainly not Nissans. And my wife's 98K Grand Marquis leaks oil at the rear seal. There is plenty to complain about on ANY car brand. I can't remember ever seeing a 4-Runner that wasn't a bucket of rust.
[This message has been edited by weaselbeak (edited 09-28-2011).]
IP: Logged
08:03 AM
UND_Sioux Member
Posts: 319 From: Houston, TX, USA Registered: Dec 2009
I was originally considering the 3.6 VVT from an Acadia before I got my hands on a low mileage 3900. For what it's worth, a mechanic at Chevrolet steered me away from the 3.6. He said they have had tons of problems with them and he also said the 3900 has been pretty reliable.
IP: Logged
08:33 AM
Formula88 Member
Posts: 53788 From: Raleigh NC Registered: Jan 2001
Originally posted by Justinbart: It still falls short of a mild turbo 3800.
Mild turbo? FieroX and darkhorizon are not running mild turbo setups to make it into the 10s. And I could pull the rotors out of an LS9 blower, and bolt on a 'mild turbo' to it, as well, easily pushing those torque numbers much higher than a mild turbo on a 3800. Why are you all so desparate to argue about ridiculous crap? This thread isn't about the 3800, it's about the LFX.
IP: Logged
12:42 PM
L67 Member
Posts: 1792 From: Winston Salem, NC Registered: Jun 2010
I guess we should all just get the LS9; since it makes more torque stock, than a "lightly modded" 3800SC III and LLT combined.
quote
Originally posted by dobey:
Mild turbo? FieroX and darkhorizon are not running mild turbo setups to make it into the 10s. And I could pull the rotors out of an LS9 blower, and bolt on a 'mild turbo' to it, as well, easily pushing those torque numbers much higher than a mild turbo on a 3800. Why are you all so desparate to argue about ridiculous crap? This thread isn't about the 3800, it's about the LFX.
You are the one that compared the two engines. Maybe I understood your post wrong. To me you are stating that the LS9 is the "end all" in the power making discussion. The power that the ls9 makes is not unattainable. I make more power to the ground than a zr1 and I would consider my car a mild turbo 3800 build. (valve springs and rockers on a stock l32 bottom end)
Originally posted by Justinbart: You are the one that compared the two engines. Maybe I understood your post wrong. To me you are stating that the LS9 is the "end all" in the power making discussion. The power that the ls9 makes is not unattainable. I make more power to the ground than a zr1 and I would consider my car a mild turbo 3800 build. (valve springs and rockers on a stock l32 bottom end)
BlackGT was the first to mention the 3800 in this thread, comparing it to an LLT, and implying that somehow GM was lying about the HP numbers of the V6 Camaro, because apparently someone bought one and took it to a dyno, and was upset that he didn't see 300 on the graph. Then L67 and you jumped in with more nonsense about 'lightly modded' 3800, and torque. I never said the LS9 was unattainable, but if your argument is purely one of making power, why start with a 3800 and lightly mod it, when you can start with an engine that makes more than twice the power stock, and 'lightly mod' that? Every time someone mentions anything about potential engine swaps you guys have to jump in and act like the 3800 is the end all in the power making discussion. It never has been and never will be. Neither is the LS9.
And if all I wanted to talk about was pure power output, I wouldn't even be discussing it on this forum, because the Fiero is a waste of time in that regard. If all I wanted was to go as fast as possible in the 1/4 mile, I'd be spending my money building a dragster.
Not everyone does an engine swap or builds their car to act like a hardass on the highway in the middle of the night.
Pretty sure bolting a turbo on an LS9 doesn't cost any more than bolting one on a 3800. Some people have more expensive toys. No need to be jealous. For a cool 20 mil and a year of dedicated training, one can tour low Earth orbit for a while too, at a leisurely 17,750 MPH.
My mild LS4 will be plenty for cruising along the ground and enjoying the ride on the street. If I want to go to the track, I'd rather drive a car built for it. And when I head into space, I'd rather look towards mastering gravity and breaking beyond the speed of light.
You are the one that compared the two engines. Maybe I understood your post wrong. To me you are stating that the LS9 is the "end all" in the power making discussion. The power that the ls9 makes is not unattainable. I make more power to the ground than a zr1 and I would consider my car a mild turbo 3800 build. (valve springs and rockers on a stock l32 bottom end)
I thought the ZR1 had 638 HP at the crank. You doing that with a "mild" turbo 3800?
IP: Logged
05:04 PM
darkhorizon Member
Posts: 12279 From: Flint Michigan Registered: Jan 2006
I have come to learn that the terms 'mild' and 'some mods' are relative. So where does 'mild' go to 'full out'? A twin M90 3.8 that last a 1/4 mile before a rebuild? Also (not to be mean), why does everything get compared to the 3.8? I vote we compare everything to this: http://butlerperformance.co...mblies/aluminum.html
A real potiac block for a real pontiac fiero. Just a though.
GM built a 3.6 DI Twin Turbo Camaro for Jay Leno that was on display at SEMA a couple of years back. It easily disposed of an LS3 Camaro, and got much better gas mileage too. Any light weight all aluminum engine that is 11.3 to 1 compression, lives on pump gas, cranks out 323 horsepower, revs to 6800 rpm, and gets 30 mpg highway like the new LFX, is definitely a candidate for a future swap. I imagine it would sound pretty exotic thru a Fiero muffler.
Originally posted by Justinbart: Zr1 does 60-130 in 7.8s-7.9s. I did it in 7.6s on a warm humid night.
In a car that's 500-600 lbs lighter, using a trans with gearing probably more suited to doing that with your engine. If you want to talk about what power you're putting down at the wheels, put it on a dyno.
Originally posted by FriendOfYours: He runs like a 10.5 on drag radials in a beat up 88. Injectors, rockers, e85, IC and turbo correct?
If you can do that with any motor without opening it up and swapping internals, that seems pretty MILD
Those kinda times are right around 600+hp
I know what darkhorizon's car does. We weren't talking about his car. And that is not mild. I don't see how swapping internals is somehow wild. Putting forged pistons, rods, and crank in an engine doesn't double its power; nor is it hard to do. It's a lot more work to make exhaust, intake piping, mounting an IC, and swapping tires and fuel, than it is to swap internals on an engine that's already out of a car and being swapped in. And the only reason swapping the internals isn't required on the 3800SC is because it already comes with stronger parts being boosted from the factory.
And that doesn't include the thousands of dollars in the trans to keep it from blowing up while trying to get the 1.3x 60 ft times.
In a car that's 500-600 lbs lighter, using a trans with gearing probably more suited to doing that with your engine. If you want to talk about what power you're putting down at the wheels, put it on a dyno.
200lbs at most!
Not sure if a fiero's gear ratios are suited better than a ZR1 or not.
Not sure if a fiero's gear ratios are suited better than a ZR1 or not.
Guess what car has a better drag coefficient.
Are you seriously going to compare a 25+ year old ~$1000 commuter, with a brand new $125,000 purpose built sports car? really?? Do we have a face palm icon?
Ok, sure, "take one out" on the street... it's probably a 50-60 year old guy in his mid-life crisis car, or if they seriously got on it, they probably didn't get traction through the first 3-4 gears... and at the end of the day, you're still going home in your fiero.
Don't get me wrong... I'm all for fieros, and still have one sitting in my garage, but comparing them to the new age stuff...is just stupid.
"Don't get me wrong... I'm all for fieros, and still have one sitting in my garage, but comparing them to the new age stuff...is just stupid."
Not quite. While generally true, you need only to attend a Fiero show to see some REALLY top notch autos owned by guys who are anal about the build and appearance of their rides, with performance upgrades and customization dripping. Easily comparable to the new iron.
