Pennock's Fiero Forum
  General Fiero Chat - Archive
  How to not spin a fiero, If sliding?

T H I S   I S   A N   A R C H I V E D   T O P I C
  

Email This Page to Someone! | Printable Version


How to not spin a fiero, If sliding? by IanT720
Started on: 06-01-2011 10:37 PM
Replies: 23
Last post by: rogergarrison on 06-13-2011 12:08 PM
IanT720
Member
Posts: 1696
From: Whitmore Lake, MI
Registered: Sep 2010


Feedback score:    (9)
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post06-01-2011 10:37 PM Click Here to See the Profile for IanT720Click Here to Email IanT720Send a Private Message to IanT720Direct Link to This Post
So I almost hit a deer a couple weeks ago and spun out my 86 mostly because I hit the brakes and let off the gas which I guess is a big no no for fiero's, I guess I'm asking if I do start to slide on a turn I'm supposed to not let off the gas correct?
IP: Logged
PFF
System Bot
ManMadeChickens
Member
Posts: 552
From: Clackamas, Oregon USA
Registered: Jun 2006


Feedback score: (1)
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post06-01-2011 10:47 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ManMadeChickensClick Here to Email ManMadeChickensSend a Private Message to ManMadeChickensDirect Link to This Post
This situation is called "drop throttle oversteer," a problem mostly exhibited in mid or rear engined cars. You need to think of car control in terms of weight - weight on the tires provides grip. When you turn and brake at the same time, you're trying to get the car to change direction while simultaneously "taking the weight off" the rear tires because of the deceleration. Without the normal weight back there, the tires are going to grip less, and when you've got it turned in like that, you're likely to bring the back end around.

You're thinking along the right track. I would suggest not braking in an emergency maneuver like that, unless you absolutely need to.
IP: Logged
DeLorean00
Member
Posts: 4251
From: Sacramento, CA / Reno, NV
Registered: Aug 2005


Feedback score: (2)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 100
Rate this member

Report this Post06-01-2011 10:47 PM Click Here to See the Profile for DeLorean00Click Here to Email DeLorean00Send a Private Message to DeLorean00Direct Link to This Post
Ok as with any slide. Just pull your feet off of both pedals and steer into the slide. You also can try to use the gas to carefully pull yourself out. But be careful. It would do you some good to find a empty parking lot with out cops around, and on a rainy day try sliding the car around. Do some drifting and powerslides. You will get a feel for the car. And next time you start to get the back end to come out on you, you will be better prepared.
IP: Logged
blackrams
Member
Posts: 28734
From: Hattiesburg, MS, USA
Registered: Feb 2003


Feedback score:    (7)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 223
Rate this member

Report this Post06-01-2011 10:48 PM Click Here to See the Profile for blackramsClick Here to Email blackramsSend a Private Message to blackramsDirect Link to This Post
Not enough information to give you an answer that fits all circumstances but, generally, you always turn in the direction of the skid. Of course, this isn't always possible, there could be a tree there. But, what you're trying to do is regain traction/control of your front tires and reduce the sideways motion of your ass end. Thereby capturing the momentum and using it to your advantage or control. Letting off of or maintaining power to the rear wheels depends on too many different variables. What's the surface your tires are on? Is it wet, dry, loose or tight? There really isn't a single answer to your question.

------------------
Ron

IP: Logged
ManMadeChickens
Member
Posts: 552
From: Clackamas, Oregon USA
Registered: Jun 2006


Feedback score: (1)
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post06-01-2011 10:51 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ManMadeChickensClick Here to Email ManMadeChickensSend a Private Message to ManMadeChickensDirect Link to This Post
I second that idea. There's no substitute for practice. I took a Teen Car Control course when I was 19... by then I was already pretty used to braking traction in a car, but it was a nice refresher. I've since got really interested in drifting, which means I'm REAL familiar with this situation of loss of rear traction. Any time I feel the back end step out, it's now an unconscious reaction to countersteer, and recover from a slide - something that came with a lot of practice.
IP: Logged
DeLorean00
Member
Posts: 4251
From: Sacramento, CA / Reno, NV
Registered: Aug 2005


Feedback score: (2)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 100
Rate this member

Report this Post06-01-2011 10:59 PM Click Here to See the Profile for DeLorean00Click Here to Email DeLorean00Send a Private Message to DeLorean00Direct Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by ManMadeChickens:

I second that idea. There's no substitute for practice. I took a Teen Car Control course when I was 19... by then I was already pretty used to braking traction in a car, but it was a nice refresher. I've since got really interested in drifting, which means I'm REAL familiar with this situation of loss of rear traction. Any time I feel the back end step out, it's now an unconscious reaction to countersteer, and recover from a slide - something that came with a lot of practice.


Agreed. The first time I lost control of my Fiero I was 17 and it scared the crap out of me. At the time my friends dad told me to take it out to this old dirt lot we knew about and try to loose control of the car. So he and I went out there for about 2 hours of sliding around in my Fiero and then we slid around in his Ranger. And the next weekend we came back and did it again in his Celebrity. I was a ton of fun, but more then that he was teaching me lessons that I never forgot. And probably saved me few accidents.

His car and mine were filthy, we were covered in dust, burned off tons of gas, and when it was all over he bought me a cheeseburger. Good friends/parents like that only come along once in a lifetime. He had a great way of teaching a young know it all stuff without me knowing he was teaching me something.

[This message has been edited by DeLorean00 (edited 06-01-2011).]

IP: Logged
2.5
Member
Posts: 41027
From: Southern MN
Registered: May 2007


Feedback score: (1)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 178
Rate this member

Report this Post06-02-2011 08:26 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 2.5Send a Private Message to 2.5Direct Link to This Post
Yep practice is best. I had practice on gravel back roads when I was young. Pavement is a bit more grippy, but sliding in a Fiero is only different because of more rear weight, it means it takes more to get it to slide, and once it does its harder to stop from sliding. You get off the gas if you back end is too far around, you get on it if it is not far enough around. If you're sliding sideways at a ditch get off it.
IP: Logged
doublec4
Member
Posts: 8273
From: Oakville, Ontario, Canada
Registered: Jun 2003


Feedback score:    (20)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 151
Rate this member

Report this Post06-02-2011 11:35 AM Click Here to See the Profile for doublec4Click Here to Email doublec4Send a Private Message to doublec4Direct Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by ManMadeChickens:

This situation is called "drop throttle oversteer," a problem mostly exhibited in mid or rear engined cars. You need to think of car control in terms of weight - weight on the tires provides grip. When you turn and brake at the same time, you're trying to get the car to change direction while simultaneously "taking the weight off" the rear tires because of the deceleration. Without the normal weight back there, the tires are going to grip less, and when you've got it turned in like that, you're likely to bring the back end around.

You're thinking along the right track. I would suggest not braking in an emergency maneuver like that, unless you absolutely need to.


This is a good explanation. Only thing I would add is that rear/midengine cars exhibit this problem because of the added weight in the back. Although braking transfers weight to the front tires and the rear tires now have less normal force (producing less lateral grip) the momentum of the weight in the back travelling perpendicular to the path of the curve is what continues to carry the rear end out. Front engine cars usually understeer and plow forward because they don't have that momentum carried by the rear.

I lost it in the corners 3 times when I was younger. Bad tires, hit the brakes in the corner, and too fast entry speed lol. Learned my lesson. Now I practice the "slow in fast out" method.

[This message has been edited by doublec4 (edited 06-02-2011).]

IP: Logged
1988holleyformula
Member
Posts: 4109
From: SE MN
Registered: Jul 2009


Feedback score: (3)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 68
Rate this member

Report this Post06-02-2011 11:45 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 1988holleyformulaSend a Private Message to 1988holleyformulaDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by doublec4:


Now I practice the "slow in fast out" method.



Yup, the first couple times going into a corner reallllll hot in the Fiero and having to hit the brakes mid-corner, will make you change Fiero driving habits. Now I always put the Formula into 2nd or 3rd before the corner, and then row through the gears up to fifth. Try doing that without a smile on your face.
IP: Logged
jwrape
Member
Posts: 1000
From: Monroe
Registered: Apr 2011


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post06-02-2011 12:22 PM Click Here to See the Profile for jwrapeSend a Private Message to jwrapeDirect Link to This Post
That's how my uncle totalled his 88 GT

------------------
86 Fiero 2M4 Silver, and 86 GT

IP: Logged
Formula88
Member
Posts: 53788
From: Raleigh NC
Registered: Jan 2001


Feedback score: (3)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 555
Rate this member

Report this Post06-02-2011 12:34 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Formula88Send a Private Message to Formula88Direct Link to This Post
Regardless of what you're driving, you point the wheels where you want the car to go. Unless you're in an unrecoverable slide, the rest of the car will eventually follow.

IP: Logged
PFF
System Bot
dratts
Member
Posts: 8373
From: Coeur d' alene Idaho USA
Registered: Apr 2001


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 119
Rate this member

Report this Post06-02-2011 03:24 PM Click Here to See the Profile for drattsClick Here to Email drattsSend a Private Message to drattsDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by jwrape:

That's how my uncle totalled his 88 GT



From smiling too much or hitting the brakes?

[This message has been edited by dratts (edited 06-02-2011).]

IP: Logged
Capt Fiero
Member
Posts: 7656
From: British Columbia, Canada
Registered: Feb 2000


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 260
Rate this member

Report this Post06-02-2011 04:32 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Capt FieroClick Here to visit Capt Fiero's HomePageClick Here to Email Capt FieroSend a Private Message to Capt FieroDirect Link to This Post

Download this video from my server, http://captfiero.com/videos...V/motorweekfiero.wmv There is a nice section on how a professional explains "Trailing Throttle Oversteer" and shows how to manage it in a Fiero. I belive they even use an 86GT as the test car.

There is a lot more to the video including Fiero vs MR2 testing and drag racing and well, just lots of stuff. The video is 215mb.

------------------
85GT Soon to be 87GT,93 Eldorado 4.9, 5spd Dual O2 Custom Chip, Custom Exhaust. MSD Everything Capt Fiero --- My Over View Cadero Pics Yellow 88GT 5spd Full Poly Suspension, Lowered 1/2" in front, Corner Carver.

IP: Logged
Tinton
Member
Posts: 4381
From: GA
Registered: Feb 2005


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 295
User Banned

Report this Post06-02-2011 07:13 PM Click Here to See the Profile for TintonSend a Private Message to TintonDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by ManMadeChickens:

This situation is called "drop throttle oversteer," a problem mostly exhibited in mid or rear engined cars. You need to think of car control in terms of weight - weight on the tires provides grip. When you turn and brake at the same time, you're trying to get the car to change direction while simultaneously "taking the weight off" the rear tires because of the deceleration. Without the normal weight back there, the tires are going to grip less, and when you've got it turned in like that, you're likely to bring the back end around.

You're thinking along the right track. I would suggest not braking in an emergency maneuver like that, unless you absolutely need to.


Its only a problem for n00b drivers, lift-off oversteer is actually the main reason why mid-engine and rear-engine layouts are preferred in sports cars. When you're going fast all you have to do is lift off the throttle and the car steers very well.

And yeah, if you want to avoid spinning out you need to keep your foot in it. That keeps the car balanced. You lift off AND hit the brakes and all the weight shifts forward and the rear end wants to come around.

Once you get used to it, lift-off oversteer is AWESOME. If you're in the middle of a corner and notice you're going a little too fast and understeering, all you need to do is lift off a bit to give the front tires some traction, then get back on to balance it out and hold your driving line. I've owned and driven nothing but mid-engine cars for the past 5 years, I've built up some experience.

------------------

[This message has been edited by Tinton (edited 06-02-2011).]

IP: Logged
Tinton
Member
Posts: 4381
From: GA
Registered: Feb 2005


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 295
User Banned

Report this Post06-02-2011 07:19 PM Click Here to See the Profile for TintonSend a Private Message to TintonDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by DeLorean00:

Ok as with any slide. Just pull your feet off of both pedals and steer into the slide. You also can try to use the gas to carefully pull yourself out. But be careful. It would do you some good to find a empty parking lot with out cops around, and on a rainy day try sliding the car around. Do some drifting and powerslides. You will get a feel for the car. And next time you start to get the back end to come out on you, you will be better prepared.


Driving it in an empty parking lot doesn't give you an accurate feel for the car, it just makes you think it handles likea pendulum, with the rear end swinging around. The only real way to get a feel for it is experience driving moderately fast. You don't have to be reckless to push the car a little and feel it out.
IP: Logged
Pyrthian
Member
Posts: 29541
From: Detroit, MI
Registered: Jul 2002


Feedback score: (5)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 341
Rate this member

Report this Post06-03-2011 10:37 AM Click Here to See the Profile for PyrthianClick Here to Email PyrthianSend a Private Message to PyrthianDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Tinton:
Driving it in an empty parking lot doesn't give you an accurate feel for the car, it just makes you think it handles likea pendulum, with the rear end swinging around. The only real way to get a feel for it is experience driving moderately fast. You don't have to be reckless to push the car a little and feel it out.


yes - but most folk dont have large enough areas to do this safely.
little point in dropping it in a ditch or wrapping around a pole - or worse - anohter vehicle - to learn to drive safely

but - yes - you do want to at least get to 40 to get a "real feel"
industrial parks at night?
IP: Logged
Fosgatecavy98
Member
Posts: 2967
From:
Registered: Jul 2005


Feedback score: (2)
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post06-03-2011 04:06 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Fosgatecavy98Send a Private Message to Fosgatecavy98Direct Link to This Post
I don't understand how people are spinning Fieros out so easily. If the stock Fiero transmission had a limited-slip I can understand, but with the stock roll of the body, it opens up the inside wheel so much that the outside tire wont break loose, unless you just barely get the inside spinning, then both should spin, but with a lot of throttle its near impossible to get both spinning.
IP: Logged
Patrick
Member
Posts: 30539
From: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
Registered: Apr 99


Feedback score: (1)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 443
Rate this member

Report this Post06-03-2011 05:26 PM Click Here to See the Profile for PatrickClick Here to Email PatrickSend a Private Message to PatrickDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Fosgatecavy98:

I don't understand how people are spinning Fieros out so easily.



Been to an autocross track?

I've been driving for almost 40 years, but last year was my first time on a track. I found out first-hand how easy it is to have the rear end of a Fiero come around... even on dry pavement.

As my skill level improved on the track, I was able to reduce the number of times I spun out. But the potential is always there!
IP: Logged
IanT720
Member
Posts: 1696
From: Whitmore Lake, MI
Registered: Sep 2010


Feedback score:    (9)
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post06-03-2011 05:56 PM Click Here to See the Profile for IanT720Click Here to Email IanT720Send a Private Message to IanT720Direct Link to This Post
Has anybody spun out with the rear sway bar? I heard it's more likely to happen
IP: Logged
Formula88
Member
Posts: 53788
From: Raleigh NC
Registered: Jan 2001


Feedback score: (3)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 555
Rate this member

Report this Post06-03-2011 06:35 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Formula88Send a Private Message to Formula88Direct Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Fosgatecavy98:

I don't understand how people are spinning Fieros out so easily. If the stock Fiero transmission had a limited-slip I can understand, but with the stock roll of the body, it opens up the inside wheel so much that the outside tire wont break loose, unless you just barely get the inside spinning, then both should spin, but with a lot of throttle its near impossible to get both spinning.


You've apparently never experienced drop throttle oversteer.
It can happen in any car. Go into a corner too fast and take your foot off the gas or hit the brakes and what happens? Weight shifts forward and the rear tires no longer have as much weight on them - they lose traction and you oversteer.
IP: Logged
Formula88
Member
Posts: 53788
From: Raleigh NC
Registered: Jan 2001


Feedback score: (3)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 555
Rate this member

Report this Post06-03-2011 06:36 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Formula88Send a Private Message to Formula88Direct Link to This Post

Formula88

53788 posts
Member since Jan 2001
 
quote
Originally posted by IanT720:

Has anybody spun out with the rear sway bar? I heard it's more likely to happen


A rear sway bar increases rear roll stiffness, which makes a car more likely to oversteer.
If you had a rear swaybar, your car would have spun even harder.
IP: Logged
PFF
System Bot
hyperv6
Member
Posts: 5465
From: Clinton, OH, USA
Registered: Mar 2003


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 90
Rate this member

Report this Post06-03-2011 06:42 PM Click Here to See the Profile for hyperv6Send a Private Message to hyperv6Direct Link to This Post
I agree with the above post that it depends on conditions on how to deal with it. The normal accepted way in most cars and most conditions is to get back on the gas if you can. This will pull the car back in line and stabilize the weight back on the car.

I have had this happen and normally it recovers but it never has happened under conditions like a deer. I was just hard driving in a corner.

Yes it can happen with a rear sway bar but often the car is more balanced and easier to recover. That is if you have matched bars and good balance in the car. The deals where people just add any old bar to the rear can really effect the ease of recovery.

The real fact is if you get to the point of no return the car will get out from under you anyway. Midengine and rear engine cars just have this and the Fiero is not really tuned in stock form to really keep a good balance. It has different issues that all contribute and can let the car jump out. GM did not dial in so much uindersteer for no reason.

Even at Indy this year the guy who crashed on the last lap lost the cars balance either by running in the marbles or losing the air on the outside of the car he was passing. It happens a lot. Balance not matter if it is eviormental or mechanical can get upset and really make for an ugly move on the car.

I one time in the rain went into a intersection. The car stepped out on a water and oil surface. I knew I could not catch it so I jumped on the gas and kept it spinning . I was turning north onto a street and ended up at the light going south. If you have lemons make lemonaide out of it. I was just glad no one was there and gave me room to make the move to save it.
IP: Logged
JesseM
Member
Posts: 576
From: Lynchburg, Virginia
Registered: Aug 2007


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post06-13-2011 02:26 AM Click Here to See the Profile for JesseMClick Here to Email JesseMSend a Private Message to JesseMDirect Link to This Post
I read this thread earlier, and realized we just received a bunch of rain today :] So my brother needed my car, this meant I got to use the Fiero today :] I found a nice back road to Lowe's (where I work) and tried out my throttle control on the turn, it was a perfect controlled slide. Thanks PFF buddies :]
IP: Logged
rogergarrison
Member
Posts: 49593
From: A Western Caribbean Island/ Columbus, Ohio
Registered: Apr 99


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 552
Rate this member

Report this Post06-13-2011 12:08 PM Click Here to See the Profile for rogergarrisonClick Here to Email rogergarrisonSend a Private Message to rogergarrisonDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by ManMadeChickens:

This situation is called "drop throttle oversteer," a problem mostly exhibited in mid or rear engined cars. You need to think of car control in terms of weight - weight on the tires provides grip. When you turn and brake at the same time, you're trying to get the car to change direction while simultaneously "taking the weight off" the rear tires because of the deceleration. Without the normal weight back there, the tires are going to grip less, and when you've got it turned in like that, you're likely to bring the back end around.

You're thinking along the right track. I would suggest not braking in an emergency maneuver like that, unless you absolutely need to.


Actually, thats true in ALMOST ANY car. Anytime your sliding and let off the gas or brake, the center of gravity shifts forward taking even more weight off the back tires. Even a front engine, RWD Nascar car will make a right hand turn right into the outside wall if they let off quickly or brake. Thats why you now see a lot of them floor it nowadays when it starts to spin. It will make the car spin to the inside, away from the outside wall. It can be controlled somewhat by driver skill in only letting off the gas enough to keep it on track. That dont transfer the weight as rapid or extreme.

IP: Logged



All times are ET (US)

T H I S   I S   A N   A R C H I V E D   T O P I C
  

Contact Us | Back To Main Page

Advertizing on PFF | Fiero Parts Vendors
PFF Merchandise | Fiero Gallery | Ogre's Cave
Real-Time Chat | Fiero Related Auctions on eBay



Copyright (c) 1999, C. Pennock