So I almost hit a deer a couple weeks ago and spun out my 86 mostly because I hit the brakes and let off the gas which I guess is a big no no for fiero's, I guess I'm asking if I do start to slide on a turn I'm supposed to not let off the gas correct?

This situation is called "drop throttle oversteer," a problem mostly exhibited in mid or rear engined cars. You need to think of car control in terms of weight - weight on the tires provides grip. When you turn and brake at the same time, you're trying to get the car to change direction while simultaneously "taking the weight off" the rear tires because of the deceleration. Without the normal weight back there, the tires are going to grip less, and when you've got it turned in like that, you're likely to bring the back end around.

You're thinking along the right track. I would suggest not braking in an emergency maneuver like that, unless you absolutely need to.

Ok as with any slide. Just pull your feet off of both pedals and steer into the slide. You also can try to use the gas to carefully pull yourself out. But be careful. It would do you some good to find a empty parking lot with out cops around, and on a rainy day try sliding the car around. Do some drifting and powerslides. You will get a feel for the car. And next time you start to get the back end to come out on you, you will be better prepared.

Not enough information to give you an answer that fits all circumstances but, generally, you always turn in the direction of the skid. Of course, this isn't always possible, there could be a tree there. But, what you're trying to do is regain traction/control of your front tires and reduce the sideways motion of your ass end. Thereby capturing the momentum and using it to your advantage or control. Letting off of or maintaining power to the rear wheels depends on too many different variables. What's the surface your tires are on? Is it wet, dry, loose or tight? There really isn't a single answer to your question.

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Ron

I second that idea. There's no substitute for practice. I took a Teen Car Control course when I was 19... by then I was already pretty used to braking traction in a car, but it was a nice refresher. I've since got really interested in drifting, which means I'm REAL familiar with this situation of loss of rear traction. Any time I feel the back end step out, it's now an unconscious reaction to countersteer, and recover from a slide - something that came with a lot of practice.

quote Originally posted by ManMadeChickens: I second that idea. There's no substitute for practice. I took a Teen Car Control course when I was 19... by then I was already pretty used to braking traction in a car, but it was a nice refresher. I've since got really interested in drifting, which means I'm REAL familiar with this situation of loss of rear traction. Any time I feel the back end step out, it's now an unconscious reaction to countersteer, and recover from a slide - something that came with a lot of practice.

Agreed. The first time I lost control of my Fiero I was 17 and it scared the crap out of me. At the time my friends dad told me to take it out to this old dirt lot we knew about and try to loose control of the car. So he and I went out there for about 2 hours of sliding around in my Fiero and then we slid around in his Ranger. And the next weekend we came back and did it again in his Celebrity. I was a ton of fun, but more then that he was teaching me lessons that I never forgot. And probably saved me few accidents.

His car and mine were filthy, we were covered in dust, burned off tons of gas, and when it was all over he bought me a cheeseburger. Good friends/parents like that only come along once in a lifetime. He had a great way of teaching a young know it all stuff without me knowing he was teaching me something.

[This message has been edited by DeLorean00 (edited 06-01-2011).]

Yep practice is best. I had practice on gravel back roads when I was young. Pavement is a bit more grippy, but sliding in a Fiero is only different because of more rear weight, it means it takes more to get it to slide, and once it does its harder to stop from sliding. You get off the gas if you back end is too far around, you get on it if it is not far enough around. If you're sliding sideways at a ditch get off it.

quote Originally posted by ManMadeChickens: This situation is called "drop throttle oversteer," a problem mostly exhibited in mid or rear engined cars. You need to think of car control in terms of weight - weight on the tires provides grip. When you turn and brake at the same time, you're trying to get the car to change direction while simultaneously "taking the weight off" the rear tires because of the deceleration. Without the normal weight back there, the tires are going to grip less, and when you've got it turned in like that, you're likely to bring the back end around. You're thinking along the right track. I would suggest not braking in an emergency maneuver like that, unless you absolutely need to.

This is a good explanation. Only thing I would add is that rear/midengine cars exhibit this problem because of the added weight in the back. Although braking transfers weight to the front tires and the rear tires now have less normal force (producing less lateral grip) the momentum of the weight in the back travelling perpendicular to the path of the curve is what continues to carry the rear end out. Front engine cars usually understeer and plow forward because they don't have that momentum carried by the rear.

I lost it in the corners 3 times when I was younger. Bad tires, hit the brakes in the corner, and too fast entry speed lol. Learned my lesson. Now I practice the "slow in fast out" method.

[This message has been edited by doublec4 (edited 06-02-2011).]

quote Originally posted by doublec4: Now I practice the "slow in fast out" method.

Yup, the first couple times going into a corner reallllll hot in the Fiero and having to hit the brakes mid-corner, will make you change Fiero driving habits. Now I always put the Formula into 2nd or 3rd before the corner, and then row through the gears up to fifth. Try doing that without a smile on your face.

That's how my uncle totalled his 88 GT

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86 Fiero 2M4 Silver, and 86 GT

Regardless of what you're driving, you point the wheels where you want the car to go. Unless you're in an unrecoverable slide, the rest of the car will eventually follow.

quote Originally posted by jwrape: That's how my uncle totalled his 88 GT

From smiling too much or hitting the brakes?

[This message has been edited by dratts (edited 06-02-2011).]

Download this video from my server, http://captfiero.com/videos...V/motorweekfiero.wmv There is a nice section on how a professional explains "Trailing Throttle Oversteer" and shows how to manage it in a Fiero. I belive they even use an 86GT as the test car.

There is a lot more to the video including Fiero vs MR2 testing and drag racing and well, just lots of stuff. The video is 215mb.

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85GT Soon to be 87GT,93 Eldorado 4.9, 5spd Dual O2 Custom Chip, Custom Exhaust. MSD Everything Capt Fiero --- My Over View Cadero Pics Yellow 88GT 5spd Full Poly Suspension, Lowered 1/2" in front, Corner Carver.

quote Originally posted by ManMadeChickens: This situation is called "drop throttle oversteer," a problem mostly exhibited in mid or rear engined cars. You need to think of car control in terms of weight - weight on the tires provides grip. When you turn and brake at the same time, you're trying to get the car to change direction while simultaneously "taking the weight off" the rear tires because of the deceleration. Without the normal weight back there, the tires are going to grip less, and when you've got it turned in like that, you're likely to bring the back end around. You're thinking along the right track. I would suggest not braking in an emergency maneuver like that, unless you absolutely need to.

Its only a problem for n00b drivers, lift-off oversteer is actually the main reason why mid-engine and rear-engine layouts are preferred in sports cars. When you're going fast all you have to do is lift off the throttle and the car steers very well.

And yeah, if you want to avoid spinning out you need to keep your foot in it. That keeps the car balanced. You lift off AND hit the brakes and all the weight shifts forward and the rear end wants to come around.

Once you get used to it, lift-off oversteer is AWESOME. If you're in the middle of a corner and notice you're going a little too fast and understeering, all you need to do is lift off a bit to give the front tires some traction, then get back on to balance it out and hold your driving line. I've owned and driven nothing but mid-engine cars for the past 5 years, I've built up some experience.

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[This message has been edited by Tinton (edited 06-02-2011).]

quote Originally posted by DeLorean00: Ok as with any slide. Just pull your feet off of both pedals and steer into the slide. You also can try to use the gas to carefully pull yourself out. But be careful. It would do you some good to find a empty parking lot with out cops around, and on a rainy day try sliding the car around. Do some drifting and powerslides. You will get a feel for the car. And next time you start to get the back end to come out on you, you will be better prepared.

Driving it in an empty parking lot doesn't give you an accurate feel for the car, it just makes you think it handles likea pendulum, with the rear end swinging around. The only real way to get a feel for it is experience driving moderately fast. You don't have to be reckless to push the car a little and feel it out.

quote Originally posted by Tinton: Driving it in an empty parking lot doesn't give you an accurate feel for the car, it just makes you think it handles likea pendulum, with the rear end swinging around. The only real way to get a feel for it is experience driving moderately fast. You don't have to be reckless to push the car a little and feel it out.

yes - but most folk dont have large enough areas to do this safely.
little point in dropping it in a ditch or wrapping around a pole - or worse - anohter vehicle - to learn to drive safely

but - yes - you do want to at least get to 40 to get a "real feel"
industrial parks at night?

I don't understand how people are spinning Fieros out so easily. If the stock Fiero transmission had a limited-slip I can understand, but with the stock roll of the body, it opens up the inside wheel so much that the outside tire wont break loose, unless you just barely get the inside spinning, then both should spin, but with a lot of throttle its near impossible to get both spinning.

quote Originally posted by Fosgatecavy98: I don't understand how people are spinning Fieros out so easily.

Been to an autocross track?

I've been driving for almost 40 years, but last year was my first time on a track. I found out first-hand how easy it is to have the rear end of a Fiero come around... even on dry pavement.

As my skill level improved on the track, I was able to reduce the number of times I spun out. But the potential is always there!

Has anybody spun out with the rear sway bar? I heard it's more likely to happen

quote Originally posted by Fosgatecavy98: I don't understand how people are spinning Fieros out so easily. If the stock Fiero transmission had a limited-slip I can understand, but with the stock roll of the body, it opens up the inside wheel so much that the outside tire wont break loose, unless you just barely get the inside spinning, then both should spin, but with a lot of throttle its near impossible to get both spinning.

You've apparently never experienced drop throttle oversteer.
It can happen in any car. Go into a corner too fast and take your foot off the gas or hit the brakes and what happens? Weight shifts forward and the rear tires no longer have as much weight on them - they lose traction and you oversteer.

I agree with the above post that it depends on conditions on how to deal with it. The normal accepted way in most cars and most conditions is to get back on the gas if you can. This will pull the car back in line and stabilize the weight back on the car.

I have had this happen and normally it recovers but it never has happened under conditions like a deer. I was just hard driving in a corner.

Yes it can happen with a rear sway bar but often the car is more balanced and easier to recover. That is if you have matched bars and good balance in the car. The deals where people just add any old bar to the rear can really effect the ease of recovery.

The real fact is if you get to the point of no return the car will get out from under you anyway. Midengine and rear engine cars just have this and the Fiero is not really tuned in stock form to really keep a good balance. It has different issues that all contribute and can let the car jump out. GM did not dial in so much uindersteer for no reason.

Even at Indy this year the guy who crashed on the last lap lost the cars balance either by running in the marbles or losing the air on the outside of the car he was passing. It happens a lot. Balance not matter if it is eviormental or mechanical can get upset and really make for an ugly move on the car.

I one time in the rain went into a intersection. The car stepped out on a water and oil surface. I knew I could not catch it so I jumped on the gas and kept it spinning . I was turning north onto a street and ended up at the light going south. If you have lemons make lemonaide out of it. I was just glad no one was there and gave me room to make the move to save it.

I read this thread earlier, and realized we just received a bunch of rain today :] So my brother needed my car, this meant I got to use the Fiero today :] I found a nice back road to Lowe's (where I work) and tried out my throttle control on the turn, it was a perfect controlled slide. Thanks PFF buddies :]

quote Originally posted by ManMadeChickens: This situation is called "drop throttle oversteer," a problem mostly exhibited in mid or rear engined cars. You need to think of car control in terms of weight - weight on the tires provides grip. When you turn and brake at the same time, you're trying to get the car to change direction while simultaneously "taking the weight off" the rear tires because of the deceleration. Without the normal weight back there, the tires are going to grip less, and when you've got it turned in like that, you're likely to bring the back end around. You're thinking along the right track. I would suggest not braking in an emergency maneuver like that, unless you absolutely need to.

Actually, thats true in ALMOST ANY car. Anytime your sliding and let off the gas or brake, the center of gravity shifts forward taking even more weight off the back tires. Even a front engine, RWD Nascar car will make a right hand turn right into the outside wall if they let off quickly or brake. Thats why you now see a lot of them floor it nowadays when it starts to spin. It will make the car spin to the inside, away from the outside wall. It can be controlled somewhat by driver skill in only letting off the gas enough to keep it on track. That dont transfer the weight as rapid or extreme.