quote Originally posted by Xyster: Why would anyone (besides cost) do a SBC swap when they could do a LS instead? Like I stated I know the SBC is cheaper, but the LS has so many other benefits.

For many years, I wouldn't consider swapping my RamJet SBC for any LS engine... simply for how it looked in the engine bay. It was a very mild combo with 283 whp/317wtq combo that got 22-23 mpg on the interstate and I put 40K miles on the combo before "wanting more". As I started estimating a new SBC engine with better heads, larger cam, custom headers, upgrading to the LS1 ecm for sequential fuel injection... it didn't make a lot of sense base on the current prices of used LS(x) engines their ability to hit 350 to 400 whp w/o much effort.

The LS(x) engines have been beat with the ugly stick 2 times too many, so GM put covers on them to help clean then up. Some people love the look of the LS(x) engine covers, but I do not. That isn't my style. Maybe is just my age, but the engines I grew up seeing were very good looking w/o covers (TPI, Viper V10, LT5 just to name a few). Since that time, I strongly feel than engines should be seen and shown off, not covered. So making it look good w/o an engine cover was also an interesting challenge (and I like challenges).

So when I decided to go the LS(x) route, I purchased a complete 18K mile LS4/4T65e-hd combo for less than the set of SBC heads were going to cost me. The problem with the LS4 is that most of them with the common bolt ons have essentially the same whp/wtq power curve and peak values as my "antiquated SBC" that was built back in 2003, so if I wanted more I would have to take a different path than most and that is where the insanity came in on multiple fronts. I am hopeful that my LS4/F40 swap will be as fun and enjoyable as my old SBC combo was, but I will not know until I get it finished.

Even with all the work done to "clean" it up and eliminate the ugly, it still will not have the same engine bay presence as my old RamJet SBC until I upgrade to a non-plastic intake... but that is strictly my opinion about my car... opinions will vary.

Engine choices, swaps and automobiles in general are far more emotional than logical... Trying to bring logic to them is an exercise in futility.

quote Originally posted by Isolde: What other kind of thread can we have for this swap? I've sold 3 of my adapter plates so far, but 2 of those are local LM7 Fiero builds. The last one, a couple of weeks ago, is a 350, but that old boy is not of an internet age. He has more gray hair than brown. So forget seeing a build thread on his Fiero. So, Archie, how many SBC swap kits have you sold in 2011? Any? Who else still does SBC swap plates?

Actually, the last count was at the end if the 1st quarter (Mar 31st.) & I was at 15.
But I'm selling kits not just an adapter plate & they have actually been proven to work.

You're selling adapter plates, have you even completed a swap with your adapter plate that you're selling?

Archie

quote Originally posted by fieroguru: For many years, I wouldn't consider swapping my RamJet SBC for any LS engine... simply for how it looked in the engine bay.

I have to admit I was a bit disappointed when I read you were pulling the RamJet. That is a gorgeous engine.
I've thought that would be a nice injection setup for a Fast Burn 385. (I believe it fits the Aluminum Vortec heads, correct?)

One of my biggest hesitations on doing a swap is I also love the look of the Fiero 2.8. They did a great styling job on the engine compared to how it looked in other cars. That, the TPI engines, and to a lesser extent the LT1 were all nicely styled. Now it's all a slab of stuff covered in plastic. I love driving the LS1 in my Trans Am, but it is NOT an attractive engine, especially from the factory.

You can make an LS1 pretty. It just takes a little work.

[This message has been edited by Formula88 (edited 05-24-2011).]

quote Originally posted by Archie: Actually, the last count was at the end if the 1st quarter (Mar 31st.) & I was at 15. But I'm selling kits not just an adapter plate & they have actually been proven to work. You're selling adapter plates, have you even completed a swap with your adapter plate that you're selling? Archie

I'm not gonna be baited into re-hashing what we've already covered. Your kits aren't right for everyone, for one reason or the other. You can't win them all. Back when I first got my Fiero, I contacted you about buying just your plate. Your customer service... And now I ask a question, so you not only answer it, but also you try to bash me in front of those who missed my other posts this year. Ya know what? Best we drop it. I will if you will.
Your answer to my question is 15, and that's important: That means that right now, we should have 15 threads on SBC Fiero swaps, threads that weren't here on 12/30/10. But we don't.
So until those 15 people tell why they're not doing build threads, we don't have an answer to the question that started this thread. We just have lots of speculation.

quote Originally posted by Isolde: I'm not gonna be baited into re-hashing what we've already covered. Your kits aren't right for everyone, for one reason or the other. You can't win them all. Back when I first got my Fiero, I contacted you about buying just your plate. Your customer service... And now I ask a question, so you not only answer it, but also you try to bash me in front of those who missed my other posts this year. Ya know what? Best we drop it. I will if you will. Your answer to my question is 15, and that's important: That means that right now, we should have 15 threads on SBC Fiero swaps, threads that weren't here on 12/30/10. But we don't. So until those 15 people tell why they're not doing build threads, we don't have an answer to the question that started this thread. We just have lots of speculation.

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to hurt your feelings.

I answered your question on a topic that was really none of your business.

I then asked a question that IS the business of everyone you're trying to sell an adapter plate to.... & you don't answer it!!!

What's with that?

You've sold 3 adapters, i don't see any threads on those builds. You did mention that one of your customers is too old to post on the Internet, something about his gray hair count. (BTW...That's really not the way to talk about your customers)

I'm pushing 60 & have more gray hair than you have tact, does that mean that I can't post on the Internet?

I answered your question & didn't question the fact that none of your 3 customers has posted a thread yet. Maybe a few of my customers are on PFF & maybe a few of them might post a thread but it's not really a requirement that I put on my customers that they have to join PFF & post a build thread.

You see, all horses are animals but not all animals are horses.....

All active PFF members are Fiero owners but not all Fiero owners are active PFF members

That's why I didn't question your 3 customers' lack of build threads.

Try to remember you started this discussion & set the direction it's going to go by using "Any?" at the end of your question.

So, I answered your question about something that was none of your business, You can answer my question on a topic that can be of everyone's business.

Thanks

Archie

All of us old guys should be in bed by now.

quote Originally posted by Isolde: I'm not gonna be baited into re-hashing what we've already covered. Your kits aren't right for everyone, for one reason or the other. You can't win them all. Back when I first got my Fiero, I contacted you about buying just your plate. Your customer service... And now I ask a question, so you not only answer it, but also you try to bash me in front of those who missed my other posts this year. Ya know what? Best we drop it. I will if you will. Your answer to my question is 15, and that's important: That means that right now, we should have 15 threads on SBC Fiero swaps, threads that weren't here on 12/30/10. But we don't. So until those 15 people tell why they're not doing build threads, we don't have an answer to the question that started this thread. We just have lots of speculation.

Just because you bought a SBC kit doesn't mean you have to make a build thread for it, that's ridiculous. I bet half of those 15 aren't even part of PFF. I see little reason for new SBC owners to post new threads due to the extreme bashing as this thread has shown, and the archives are just full SBC swaps, nothing really new there.

I think one good reason for the decline of the SBC is due to the Cadillac 4.9 V8

I have done both the SBC and 4.9 ( swapped and daily drove both )

the 4.9 is a better choice than the SBC for the following reasons...

...4.9 is light weight for better handling ( in fact lighter than the 3800, northstar, or 3.4dohc )
...4.9 doesn't require an adapter plate
...4.9 doesn't require remotely locating the oil filter
...4.9 didn't need custom aftermarket starter
...4.9 comes with 140 amp alternator mounted high away from water oil and dirt
...4.9 doesn't require grinding holes or notches in the engine bay to fit
...4.9 has the water inlets and outlets arranged better ( no long crossovers and u-turns )
...4.9's are generally more fuel efficient than SBC's
...4.9 has been more reliable than my SBC
...4.9 doesn't overheat with stock fiero radiator
...4.9 didn't require relocation of the battery

...the only advantage my SBC had over my 4.9 was...
performance and availlability of performance parts...
...but that was one very appealing advantage

[This message has been edited by MaxCubes (edited 05-25-2011).]

I'm happy to talk about my car, I use to talk about it all the time.
I don't talk about it as much anymore as I just don't like to subject myself to this kind of posts.

I have been very happy with my old knuckle dragging SBC from the 70s, with the work done to it I have more than enough power for what I do with the car.
The engine and kit do exactly what I want and if the handling was hurt I didn't notice.

I have changed how I post about my car, I host the pictures on a site where I can remove them if I need to. (Take my ball and go home)

This is exactly why I keep my big mouth shut for the better part of the time. Even though my SBC was soooo much cheaper and easier to build for me I always hear the whining and gnashing of teeth about what a piss poor engine it is and how 372 hp just isn't that much and how I'll never win a drag race with it.......
1. I enjoyed putting it together immensely
2. It REALLY sounds bitchin!
3. makes me smile so big my jaws start to hurt.
4. will outrun 98% of cars within 50 miles of my house.

nuff said

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87 GT...SBC...Fast as hell

quote Originally posted by jaymelk2: This is exactly why I keep my big mouth shut for the better part of the time. Even though my SBC was soooo much cheaper and easier to build for me I always hear the whining and gnashing of teeth about what a piss poor engine it is and how 372 hp just isn't that much and how I'll never win a drag race with it....... 1. I enjoyed putting it together immensely 2. It REALLY sounds bitchin! 3. makes me smile so big my jaws start to hurt. 4. will outrun 98% of cars within 50 miles of my house. nuff said

99.9%

OK, so I have not wasted my time reading all this thread, I read the first three pages, and thought the thread had died off, now I see its doubled, but just so I know, when you are all talking about the Small Block Chevy (SBC) your talking about the iron block, iron / alumium head type of SBC right? Carb, HEI.... Not the LSx motors?

Drove my LS376 tonight, went to a car club meeting, and nothing, nothing beats the rumble of the LS3 at 80mph on the highway, T-Tops off and a 80 deg clear, night.

Thanks Archie.

Rob

PS... This weekend, I met two Fiero owners, one doing a SC3800 and the other who is thinking of buying a LSX for his car, both had never heard of "Pennocks". The 3800SC guys is halfway done, and the LS guy is about to purchase a kit from Archie. NEVER HEARD OF PENNOCKS !!!!!! I doubt they will have build threads on Pennocks. Just for the record, I did a build thread here when Archie did my LS376 and many "Archie Haters" crapped all over it.

[This message has been edited by qwikgta (edited 05-25-2011).]

quote Originally posted by qwikgta: Drove my LS376 tonight, went to a car club meeting, and nothing, nothing beats the rumble of the LS3 at 80mph on the highway, T-Tops off and a 80 deg clear, night.

Well one thing's for sure. When you pulled onto the highway, there was no way I could keep up with the 2.8, but even if I couldn't see where you went, I could definitely still hear you. If nothing else, your car is certainly loud.

quote Originally posted by qwikgta: OK, so I have not wasted my time reading all this thread, I read the first three pages, and thought the thread had died off, now I see its doubled, but just so I know, when you are all talking about the Small Block Chevy (SBC) your talking about the iron block, iron / alumium head type of SBC right? Carb, HEI.... Not the LSx motors? Drove my LS376 tonight, went to a car club meeting, and nothing, nothing beats the rumble of the LS3 at 80mph on the highway, T-Tops off and a 80 deg clear, night. Thanks Archie. Rob PS... This weekend, I met two Fiero owners, one doing a SC3800 and the other who is thinking of buying a LSX for his car, both had never heard of "Pennocks". The 3800SC guys is halfway done, and the LS guy is about to purchase a kit from Archie. NEVER HEARD OF PENNOCKS !!!!!! I doubt they will have build threads on Pennocks. Just for the record, I did a build thread here when Archie did my LS376 and many "Archie Haters" crapped all over it.

You're welcome.

However, you shouldn't be allowed to drive that car without having someone with you to take video & pictures.

SO, from now on, wether you are going to the 7-11 or to a car show, you are not allowed to take the car unless you have someone with you to take video & pictures.

Archie

[This message has been edited by Archie (edited 05-25-2011).]

anybody know the story of this ride?



thanks.

Lol Weasel...You're probably right but I didn't want to get kicked in the head anymore today for having a SBC you know. I think it's a sacreligous thing around here.

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87 GT...SBC...Fast as hell

quote Originally posted by Archie: You're welcome. However, you shouldn't be allowed to drive that car without having someone with you to take video & pictures. SO, from now on, wether you are going to the 7-11 or to a car show, you are not allowed to take the car unless you have someone with you to take video & pictures. Archie

Deal. Will do. ;-)

quote Originally posted by ghost187x: anybody know the story of this ride? thanks.

That's a really clean install. And that looks like an approved roll cage coming through the back window in order to tie into the rear struts.

Having had both versions in my car (383 Ram port fuel injected stroker for 7 years, followed by the hot cam LS3), I would have to say the LS is a better engine in every way. The car just comes alive with the LS3 installed - it revs more quickly and has a much broader powerband and is lighter as well (not to mention better gas mileage as a bonus). As far as the looks - that's totally an individual preference/taste issue. Bottom line - everyone just needs to aggree to disagree and build/install whatever engine makes YOU happy!

Jim

quote Originally posted by ghost187x: anybody know the story of this ride? thanks.

I talked to the owner of this Fiero many years ago at Carlisle Pa. Then, it was painted to look like an Indy Fiero (was not an indy). It was a SBC mated to a Getrag. He said that the getrag would stay together for a "couple" passes on the track... The intake is a "TPIS Mini Ram" which was designed by the compay TPIS to be a replacement for GM's TPI intake, but not have the downfalls that the TPI intake creates. It DOES also have a supercharger, mounted low near where the A/C compressor would be, and has two intercoolers in front of both rear wheels with side vents to them.
Awesome car! If you ever see the car, I do not remember the owner's name, but he was very polite and nice to talk to. I sat and talked with him for about an hour about V8 Fieros (as it was just after I finished my install) and the getrag transmission.

I hope that the owner of this car is on here and can give us some updates on this car! Or, I hope that someone is able to give more input on this car, because the info that I just gave is how the car was when I talked to the guy - which was quite a few years ago
Chris

Im doing a SBC swap myself right now but i do not have a thread because 1st. its my first ever mechanical work and dont really know what i am talking about. 2nd my progress is too slow to keep people interested i only get a few hours a night to work on her. Im sure there are many many other people in my same shoes

SBC's are just fun.




Build thread = //www.fiero.nl/forum/F...2/HTML/111704-5.html

Right you are Chris....but v8 is a dirty word around here...tread lightly

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87 GT...SBC...Fast as hell

quote Originally posted by jaymelk2: Right you are Chris....but v8 is a dirty word around here...tread lightly

Post away Chris, the trouble makers will be taken care of with the rating system if they get too out of hand.

I would like to see an all aluminum V-8 with engine management system used in my GM's where 4 cylinders are shut down cruising, I bet the fuel millage would be fantastic, not to mention the torque of a V-8. Anyone done that yet?

Lol jake....it just seems like everytime i pole my head up....somebodys there with a 3800 block to smack me back down. i never realized 400 hp and a bitchin sound were so bad until they all got together and let me know.

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87 GT...SBC...Fast as hell

I still have my V8 Archie built car, White Gost, although now blue.
By oldlar at 2011-07-21

The car is still scarey fast.

V8 Archie Inside.....

Where the heck were you guys when i was getting beaten on like a stepchild? we need some more guys to step up and defend why we went the route we did the only problem ive had with mine is twisting 2 axles off now.

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87 GT...SBC...Fast as hell

quote Originally posted by montage: I would like to see an all aluminum V-8 with engine management system used in my GM's where 4 cylinders are shut down cruising, I bet the fuel millage would be fantastic, not to mention the torque of a V-8. Anyone done that yet?

That would be the LS4 with DoD (or AFM)... Several people have done the swap and a few have retained the DoD feature, but I haven't seen any reports of fuel mileage on long trips.
//www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum3/HTML/000115.html
//www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum3/HTML/000114.html
//www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum3/HTML/000115.html

Here is my LS4/F40 6 speed build thread - still a work in progress:
//www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum3/HTML/000123.html

Jeff has been able to get 30mpg with spirited driving on the highway and so far I'm getting 26.5mpg combined city and highway and the turbo just has a rough tune. I anticipate 30+mpg highway on a final tune. Kevin at car tuning tells me to anticipate and extra 2-3mpg with the turbo. I don't think that displacement on demand is worth much and I'll eventually eliminate the dod lifters. From what I've heard the performance trade off for fuel economy may not be acceptable for those of us who are concerned with performance.

[This message has been edited by dratts (edited 07-30-2011).]

I know guys with pickups with DoD get 26 mpg on the highway, I'm thnking the lower weight and areodynamics will make that much better. Still shows better mpgs.

quote Originally posted by montage: I know guys with pickups with DoD get 26 mpg on the highway, I'm thnking the lower weight and areodynamics will make that much better. Still shows better mpgs.

There are so many other things you could do on a Fiero, to get better MPG gains than DOD/AFM will net. It's sort of odd that GM renamed it to AFM on the newer cars/trunks, since it really doesn't do anything more active for fuel management than it would without the special hardware. Lean burn, good tune, and some rather simple aerodynamic changes, could make for some big MPG gains on a Fiero.

As far as the car goes, Ive knocked a lot of the weight off the rear since Ive last drove it with the old block so what im about to say may change later. Like someone said before - as far as a stock Fiero goes the handling hasn't changed. Its no autocross beast, never really was - but it can still take on ramps at 60 no problem. Thats way more than I can say for any other recent car Ive owned, 87 mr2, 2002 dodge intrepid, 93 crow vic police package, not like they are special but still daily drivers. Acceleration is good enough to blow the doors off just about anything around here. I think the best things about this drive train is that its so easy to work on. Parts are super cheap. Power is easily had. And best of all I can work around the motor no problem, there is so much room. I dislike how new cars are built around the motor. Engineers are not thinking about easy maintenance, they are thinking about easy assembly. Although I will give Toyota props. Camry's, corolla's etc - everything is on the top of the motor. Great cars to work on and they seem to last forever if you keep oil in them. Aside from that I think compared to Chevy they have more parts actually made in the USA. I tear apart Chevys all day long and everything has these little made in Mexico & China stickers.

If anyone has any legit questions about my swap feel free to PM me or post on my build thread.

[This message has been edited by Chris Hodson (edited 07-30-2011).]

Oh great. I thought this thread was bad enough before, but you just had to troll RFT/Shaun.

quote Originally posted by dobey: Oh great. I thought this thread was bad enough before, but you just had to troll RFT/Shaun.

I think some people like the attention....the reason they seem to always bring up there personal fan boy....

Same here Chris...I built mine as a street machine, not a drag car or autocross racer. For all those who said I was way too lucky to be able to build mine for 2000. It is possible right now on this forum to do the very same thing for even less money. If you look a sbc is waaayy cheaper to build than a 3800 and you'll initially start out with more power for less. Just my .02

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87 GT...SBC...Fast as hell

quote Originally posted by MstangsBware: I think some people like the attention....the reason they seem to always bring up there personal fan boy....

Yeah, I don't know why they just don't all go on a big group date in Florida and take a romantic stroll on the beach.

I agree with the need to have a little skill Dobey...but there is a Zumalt kit in the mall right now for 675. A clutch is 150... A 250hp v8 is very easy to do for 500...You have money left there for extras if you have a car....if not I've seen fieros go around here for 300 or so. It can be done but you're correct engine skills are necessary.
I always assume if a guys doing a swap....hopefully he can change some heads

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87 GT...SBC...Fast as hell

quote Originally posted by chrishahn87: I talked to the owner of this Fiero many years ago at Carlisle Pa. Then, it was painted to look like an Indy Fiero (was not an indy). It was a SBC mated to a Getrag. He said that the getrag would stay together for a "couple" passes on the track... The intake is a "TPIS Mini Ram" which was designed by the compay TPIS to be a replacement for GM's TPI intake, but not have the downfalls that the TPI intake creates. It DOES also have a supercharger, mounted low near where the A/C compressor would be, and has two intercoolers in front of both rear wheels with side vents to them. Awesome car! If you ever see the car, I do not remember the owner's name, but he was very polite and nice to talk to. I sat and talked with him for about an hour about V8 Fieros (as it was just after I finished my install) and the getrag transmission. I hope that the owner of this car is on here and can give us some updates on this car! Or, I hope that someone is able to give more input on this car, because the info that I just gave is how the car was when I talked to the guy - which was quite a few years ago Chris

That notchback Fiero is owned by a guy named Lou. He used to go to Carlisle and also hang with us guys in NJ . He was over my place a couple of times and impressed me as being a very nice guy. He is on this forum but I haven't seen him or read any of his posts of late. I believe that Lou worked for a GM dealership and was a car tech. That car used an Archie Conversion kit w a Getrag. The engine was supercharged ( I recall 500HP), it had a full 6 pt roll cage, sported drag radials and everything was very very well done. It was setup for drag racing but it was driven hard only on occasion. I have no idea where Lou is at this point and like lots of other Fiero owners he may be keeping a low profile. From what I know of it, that Fiero probably represents a $25K-$30K investment

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" THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, 3.4" Pulley, N* TB, LS1 MAF, Flotech Exhaust Autolite 104's Custom CAI 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite.
"THE COLUSSUS"
87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H
" ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "