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Very little discussion on SBC V8 swaps lately... WHY? by v8fiero400
Started on: 05-14-2011 02:12 AM
Replies: 245
Last post by: MstangsBware on 07-31-2011 01:48 PM
MaxCubes
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Report this Post05-23-2011 06:55 AM Click Here to See the Profile for MaxCubesClick Here to Email MaxCubesSend a Private Message to MaxCubesDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by TheRealShadowX:


Oh! I get it! You either on not very informed on this subject, or you simply can't read. Let me fill you in. Follow along closely now.

There is a guy who goes by the name of Shaun Hammit (refer to my first post) who has dedicated his life to roaming the internet telling everyone he can find that SBC V8 Fieros are slow, worthless garbage. Shaun is NOT me. So, this thread was based on a question. Why is there little discussion on SBC V8 swaps lately? My answer was (Sarcastically) that the reason for the dropoff in discussion is because Shaun had finally succeeded in his efforts to sway people from SBC swaps. Now, obviously I am KIDDING. Ya'know, a joke?

So let's recap in case I lost you. Shaun (Not me) hates V8 Fieros. I love V8 Fieros. I was taking a shot at Shaun. I was not bashing V8 Fieros. Got it?

Oh yeah, I would appreciate it if you would stop insulting my car. I know its not amazing. Not yet anyway, but it gets me by. Alright? Let's move on.

I have never regretted typing a 1 line joke so much in my life. Thanks.


My mistake dude... I thought your first post was about your efforts convicting people that v8s suck
....you're a good guy
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Report this Post05-23-2011 12:33 PM Click Here to See the Profile for wftbClick Here to Email wftbSend a Private Message to wftbDirect Link to This Post
the handling improvement i gained was from losing 150 lbs .a gain of 30 lbs would not be noticeable , but you do notice the improvement when you shed the kind of weight i did .
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Report this Post05-23-2011 02:05 PM Click Here to See the Profile for TheRealShadowXClick Here to Email TheRealShadowXSend a Private Message to TheRealShadowXDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by MaxCubes:


My mistake dude... I thought your first post was about your efforts convicting people that v8s suck
....you're a good guy


Hey, it's alright. Look, I'm going to go back and edit out my posts in that argument. No hard feelings man.

------------------
TRSX

The Zombiero - "Thrice resurrected"

1985 GT, 4 Speed Muncie, 3.4PR V6, 15" Lace GT wheels, Power everything, sunroof, Red with gray effects. Driven and enjoyed daily.

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Report this Post05-23-2011 02:32 PM Click Here to See the Profile for mattwaClick Here to Email mattwaSend a Private Message to mattwaDirect Link to This Post
Group hug? Like others have said, everyone has their preferences/opinion on what engine would be best in a Fiero and why, and you can't really change their opinion all that easily. No matter how hard you try, it just creates more conflict. It's the people that bash the others choice just because they don't like it is what the problem is. The best solution is to keep to yourself if at all possible.
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Report this Post05-23-2011 03:01 PM Click Here to See the Profile for IsoldeSend a Private Message to IsoldeDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by California Kid:


It's comments like this about the SBC that really make me wonder what cave are these people living in ?

First of all, it's not that difficult to get over 1,000 HP out of a SBC, in fact there's been people taking them to 2-3,000 HP, just check you tube out. Now that kind of power isn't practical in a Fiero unless you can build a trans/halfshafts to handle it. The fact is that the Fiero is Horsepower Limited with a manual transmission, and frankly not very many people want an automatic in their Fiero (that could change though with a really good 4-5 speed automatic that could be packaged in there without breaking the bank).

The newer engines have a little better technology built into them, but some of the same technology is also available in aftermarket parts for the SBC as well, if your rebuilding an engine. It's a personal choice as said by many above. Personally, I think the new engines are butt ugly, they put plastic covers over them to hide the ugly looks. The AutoMakers quit "Styling" Engines to save money, at least you can make a SBC look good without going through a lot of trouble and expense.

I enjoy seeing all the different engine swaps here on the forum - the "stockers" even interest me, it shows the diversity of this group on the forum, and the variety of expense budgets they are operating in. Opinions vary widely on the internet, that can be expected, we all joined this forum to be part of a Fiero Group for positive reasons I would hope.


Okay, Get you a '98-'02 LSx F-car, and get you any previous year SBC F-car. Which one will do 450 RWHP the cheapest?
( for everyone else, it's the LSx )
Get lucky at the salvage yard, and bring home a Vortec 350, and an LQ4, both for $165 each. It could happen. Put a Holley 750, an Edelbrock RPM dual plane, an MSD spark-maker, and headers on both. Which one can do 480 crank HP with just a cam? ( for everyone else, it's the LQ4 ) Now, port the heads of both, and add forged flat-top pistons to both. Then go larger on the cam. Which one will return 550 HP? Even if the 350 didn't then break it's cast crank.
The SBC has been amazing, and has made me an excellent career. But just because a mega-dollar SBC race engine can return the numbers to challenge a serious LSX, doesn't make it competitive in a Fiero.
Mod for mod, it's no contest.
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timgray
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Report this Post05-23-2011 05:27 PM Click Here to See the Profile for timgrayClick Here to visit timgray's HomePageClick Here to Email timgraySend a Private Message to timgrayDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Xyster:

Ok, since the question has turned into an argument, let me ask this: has anyone ever put a Pontiac V8 in a Fiero? The original engines where Chevy and Pontiac and we are talking about Chevy v Buick. So, why are there no Pontiac V8 swaps into a Pontiac? I know the answer to this is cost and availability, but what about the first question?


If you put a LS3 in a Fiero you would be putting in the engine the 2012 Pontiac Trans Am would have had in it.

Otherwise all the older real pontiac V8's were huge (Pre GM is the only place to get REAL pontiac engines) Not an easy task putting a big block V8 in a fiero.
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Report this Post05-23-2011 05:41 PM Click Here to See the Profile for timgrayClick Here to visit timgray's HomePageClick Here to Email timgraySend a Private Message to timgrayDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by LZeppelin513:


This is so true. In fact (at least here in Washington) it is illegal to even drive in the left lane unless passing. If this law was actually enforced, traffic, accidents, and especially road rage would all be dramatically reduced (me included regarding road rage). Nothing ticks me off more than some idiot cruising in the passing lane, holding up the flow of traffic and making people hit the brakes as someone is forced to pass him on the right.

I don't care if you are going 90 in the left lane and someone comes up behind wanting to pass, get over and let him pass.



I just wish they would make tailgating a loss of license offense. the most dangerous and stupid thing to do on the highway is tailgating.
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California Kid
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Report this Post05-23-2011 06:18 PM Click Here to See the Profile for California KidSend a Private Message to California KidDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Isolde:


Okay, Get you a '98-'02 LSx F-car, and get you any previous year SBC F-car. Which one will do 450 RWHP the cheapest?
( for everyone else, it's the LSx )
Get lucky at the salvage yard, and bring home a Vortec 350, and an LQ4, both for $165 each. It could happen. Put a Holley 750, an Edelbrock RPM dual plane, an MSD spark-maker, and headers on both. Which one can do 480 crank HP with just a cam? ( for everyone else, it's the LQ4 ) Now, port the heads of both, and add forged flat-top pistons to both. Then go larger on the cam. Which one will return 550 HP? Even if the 350 didn't then break it's cast crank.
The SBC has been amazing, and has made me an excellent career. But just because a mega-dollar SBC race engine can return the numbers to challenge a serious LSX, doesn't make it competitive in a Fiero.
Mod for mod, it's no contest.


Wow! Was this an attempt to criticize my post ?

A. I was making comment about a person/s saying the SBC just can't put up good numbers.
B. Cost of engine was never part of the discussion either for V6 or V8
C. Discussion was about engine only, but I also put in a disclaimer that the Fiero is HP/TQ limited anyway.
D. Long Term Durability of the new engines has yet to be proven, compared to the track record of the SBC, anybodies guess at this point, since the bean counters had their way cutting cost's at GM.

Hey, when someone tries to convince me that the SBC can't be built to pull some really great numbers, I'm just not going to sit here and say nothing about it. Just to push someone's button here's a SBC delivering 2,200 HP and it's driven in a street legal car, other video's are on there of the car as well:

http://www.youtube.com/watc...v5bc&feature=related

I think myself and a lot of other SBC people on this Forum are just a bit tired of being put down for our engine choice, when clearly is great engine in many respects. It suited our needs and desires for our project. My car has been in many shows with great success, as well as cruise nights for over 10 years, never have I received one single negative comment from anyone on engine choice, or the car. Is it a good swap ? From my personal experience, I wouldn't have it any other way.

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Report this Post05-23-2011 07:04 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by California Kid:
Wow! Was this an attempt to criticize my post ?

A. I was making comment about a person/s saying the SBC just can't put up good numbers.
B. Cost of engine was never part of the discussion either for V6 or V8
C. Discussion was about engine only, but I also put in a disclaimer that the Fiero is HP/TQ limited anyway.
D. Long Term Durability of the new engines has yet to be proven, compared to the track record of the SBC, anybodies guess at this point, since the bean counters had their way cutting cost's at GM.

Hey, when someone tries to convince me that the SBC can't be built to pull some really great numbers, I'm just not going to sit here and say nothing about it. Just to push someone's button here's a SBC delivering 2,200 HP and it's driven in a street legal car, other video's are on there of the car as well:

http://www.youtube.com/watc...v5bc&feature=related

I think myself and a lot of other SBC people on this Forum are just a bit tired of being put down for our engine choice, when clearly is great engine in many respects. It suited our needs and desires for our project. My car has been in many shows with great success, as well as cruise nights for over 10 years, never have I received one single negative comment from anyone on engine choice, or the car. Is it a good swap ? From my personal experience, I wouldn't have it any other way.


First of all, I never said an SBC cannot make power. I said it is much less efficient at it. Also, we were talking NA engines, not giant twin turbo engines. But the fact is still that if you apply the same mods to an LSx (which is still an SBC, only a newer generation of it), the LSx will make more power. Nobody was putting you down for choosing an SBC. I really could care less if you put an LT1 in your car. Nobody is saying your choice was bad or is making negative comments about it. So you don't need to get all defensive. But you obviously didn't build your engine to make lots of power. You built it to make a bit more than it did stock. Nothing wrong with that, but you don't need to get upset when someone states facts that you don't like. I'm not sure why you wanted to construe someone stating facts in a random post on a forum, not directed at you, as trying to convince you that an SBC can't be built to make some power.

I'm also putting an SBC in one of my Fieros. It just happens that it is a Gen IV SBC instead. And I'm not building it for power either. A bit more than it had stock, but it's a street Fiero. I don't need to make 1000 hp with it.
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Report this Post05-23-2011 07:36 PM Click Here to See the Profile for California KidSend a Private Message to California KidDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by dobey:


First of all, I never said an SBC cannot make power.


Sure ya did, that's the way I read it when you told the guy posting "But I would never swap a Gen 1 SBC into anything that wasn't a matching numbers total resto of something that came with an SBC in it. It's just not worth it, and it's not going to make you lots of power if that is what you're going for."

The twin turbo post was more for the 3800 SC guys that think the SBC is a dog.

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dobey
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Report this Post05-23-2011 07:58 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by California Kid:
Sure ya did, that's the way I read it when you told the guy posting "But I would never swap a Gen 1 SBC into anything that wasn't a matching numbers total resto of something that came with an SBC in it. It's just not worth it, and it's not going to make you lots of power if that is what you're going for."


Well, a Gen1 SBC by itself isn't going to make lots of power. Lots of boost and/or nitrous on a Gen1 SBC can make lots of power, I guess. Look at all the NA builds on Youtube. There are a few Gen1 SBCs that make 500-600hp, but they're near their limits without spending another $15-20K, while there are NA LSx engines making 800-900hp much easier. Dollar for dollar, cubic inch for cubic inch, mod for mod, the LSx is going to make more power.

Trying to build a Gen1 SBC to make power is just not worth it, when LSx engines are so plentiful now. You've got a nice car, and 10 years ago when the LSx wasn't as plentiful, an LT1/4 or older SBC would have been an ok choice for a V8 swap.
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Report this Post05-23-2011 09:05 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Formula88Send a Private Message to Formula88Direct Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by dobey:


Trying to build a Gen1 SBC to make power is just not worth it to me, when LSx engines are so plentiful now.


Fixed that for you. You apparently forgot to qualify that statement.
It's arguments like this why there isn't as much discussion about SBC swaps.

I remember these same arguments back in the 80's when people said you shouldn't build a Pontiac engine because a Small Block (or Big Block) Chevy can make so much more power so much more easily. Then the Ford guys said the SBC was all wet and you had to have a 351 Cleveland or you're just wasting your time.

It's enough to make you want to give up the hobby after listening to the same BS argument over and over and over.

[This message has been edited by Formula88 (edited 05-23-2011).]

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Report this Post05-23-2011 09:46 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Formula88:
Fixed that for you. You apparently forgot to qualify that statement.
It's arguments like this why there isn't as much discussion about SBC swaps.

I remember these same arguments back in the 80's when people said you shouldn't build a Pontiac engine because a Small Block (or Big Block) Chevy can make so much more power so much more easily. Then the Ford guys said the SBC was all wet and you had to have a 351 Cleveland or you're just wasting your time.

It's enough to make you want to give up the hobby after listening to the same BS argument over and over and over.


What BS argument? You being a fundamentalist about it, doesn't change the facts. If you feel like throwing your money away, just send it over my way instead. Just because a lot of people have done something, doesn't mean it is worth doing; especially in a dynamic economic field that is constantly changing. If the Gen1 SBC was "worth it" don't you think GM would be selling cars with them still? GM is a giant corporation that only lives to make a profit. Why then would they go through all the trouble of changing all their casting and machining tooling, to deal with complete engine redesigns, if the Gen1 SBC was so great? There are 4 generations of the SBC for a reason. And the newest generation is the best, and what they sell in all their cars and trucks with V8s, for a reason. They are better designed, more efficient, make more power, and the very tiny differences between them all keep production costs down. There is no argument. There are only facts that some people don't agree with, and want to somehow attempt disputing.

But humans aren't fiscally responsible, and they will throw money away to do what they please. It's what we do. But don't be hurt and defensive because you enjoy your engine and car, even though it wasn't necessarily a good investment. Most everyone on here is doing it too. Doesn't have to be an SBC. And I'll be the first to tell you that the swap I'm doing isn't worth it, either. An LS4 with a F40 6-speed manual transmission is one of the most difficult, and costly swaps there is. And the engine only makes 300hp stock. For what the final cost will be to get it built and running, I could have installed 20 other engines already. But I didn't choose to do it to make ridiculous power or to make a huge ROI. Because I won't get either of those things. I chose to do it, because it's unique, and I enjoy building engines. What I'm doing is a huge waste of money. Nobody in their right mind should ever do an LS4 swap with a manual trans. But I think I can safely say that neither fieroguru nor myself are sane. We're doing it to have fun, and build something unique with our cars. And I will be the first one to tell you that you are wasting your money and you should do something else, if you're thinking about doing an LS4+F40 swap. Because I know it is a waste of money, and I am doing it anyway.

Some of you just need to grow up and stop trying to be so damn defensive about your stupid swaps. You need to realize that no matter what swap you do, it's not worth it because it's still a Fiero. You are almost certainly never going to get what you invested in the car, out of it, if you decide to sell at some point. You are going to lose money. Realize it, get over it, and just have fun with the thing already. And quit crying because someone thinks your swap was a waste of money.
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Report this Post05-23-2011 10:08 PM Click Here to See the Profile for IsoldeSend a Private Message to IsoldeDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by California Kid:
Wow! Was this an attempt to criticize my post ?
D. Long Term Durability of the new engines has yet to be proven, compared to the track record of the SBC, anybodies guess at this point, since the bean counters had their way cutting cost's at GM.

Criticize? No. Balance the perspective? Yes.
D: The damn thing appeared in the '97 'vette, so late in the '96 calendar year, 14.5 years ago. Is that not long-enough-term? F-twins got it for '98. So 13.5 years now. Trucks got it for '99. 12.5 years.
I love the SBC. I've built too many to count. I've owned dozens, and driven dozens more. Until Y2K, they were my whole life, career-wise and hobby-wise. They're still effective.
I'm not capable of holding back when anyone tries to place them ahead of the LSx. Just like I can't hold back if someone claims that none of the #624 heads ever crack. Remember what donkey said to Shrek? "Only a friend would be that honest".
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Report this Post05-23-2011 10:27 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Formula88Send a Private Message to Formula88Direct Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by dobey:


What BS argument? You being a fundamentalist about it, doesn't change the facts.


That must have been a low flying WTF that just buzzed passed your head, because you completely missed my point.
It's BS because it's the same argument time and time again about how one person's choice is better than another's. You can give whatever facts you want to support your argument and it's still BS because what YOU want isn't necessarily what someone ELSE wants.

Flathead Fords are still popular engines and can make good power. It's easier to build a SBC, but a flathead owner doesn't give flying F+++ about that. He built what he wants.
Why is that so hard to accept?

As I said before - this is just the newest flavor of the same argument of "mine is better than yours" that's been going on longer than you've been sucking air.

 
quote
Originally posted by dobey:

Some of you just need to grow up and stop trying to be so damn defensive about your stupid swaps.


It would be nice if anytime someone saw a swap they didn't agree with, they didn't feel the need to explain why OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and....

[This message has been edited by Formula88 (edited 05-23-2011).]

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Report this Post05-23-2011 10:57 PM Click Here to See the Profile for gusshotrodClick Here to Email gusshotrodSend a Private Message to gusshotrodDirect Link to This Post
Just some info. I have a set of World Products heads for old-style sbc. These are pretty good heads, 2.080 intake valves, raised intake ports, etc. They flow 226/174 at .600. Stock ls1 heads flow 227/180 at the same lift.
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Report this Post05-23-2011 11:06 PM Click Here to See the Profile for California KidSend a Private Message to California KidDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Isolde:

They're still effective.



That's all I was trying to point out.

You can check all my posts if you want, but I've never criticized someone for putting a LsX in their car, and I don't believe I've ever stated that the SBC was superior to it. As far as the durability, sure it's been around for a while, but even you have to admit the LsX will have many years to go to surpass what the SBC accomplished in racing and extended road miles.

edit: one comment deleted, not worth losing my job over.

[This message has been edited by California Kid (edited 05-23-2011).]

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Report this Post05-23-2011 11:55 PM Click Here to See the Profile for engine manClick Here to Email engine manSend a Private Message to engine manDirect Link to This Post
First the OP asked why there isn't so many V8 build threads it is due to so many choices I know I would love any thing from a ecotc to a blown injected big bkock chevy but some think they need to go off topic and turn a thread into they know best instead helping
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Report this Post05-24-2011 06:48 AM Click Here to See the Profile for timgrayClick Here to visit timgray's HomePageClick Here to Email timgraySend a Private Message to timgrayDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by engine man:

First the OP asked why there isn't so many V8 build threads it is due to so many choices I know I would love any thing from a ecotc to a blown injected big bkock chevy but some think they need to go off topic and turn a thread into they know best instead helping


Everyone knew this was going to turn into a argument. but it's been the most civilized one on this topic for a very long time. Most hit the trash can by page 3 and is already full of uglyness. This one has stayed mostly civil with a few typical people baiting. It's still on topic. because this is exactly why a lot of people just dont bother to post anything on their SBC build.

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Report this Post05-24-2011 07:32 AM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Formula88:
That must have been a low flying WTF that just buzzed passed your head, because you completely missed my point.
It's BS because it's the same argument time and time again about how one person's choice is better than another's. You can give whatever facts you want to support your argument and it's still BS because what YOU want isn't necessarily what someone ELSE wants.

Flathead Fords are still popular engines and can make good power. It's easier to build a SBC, but a flathead owner doesn't give flying F+++ about that. He built what he wants.
Why is that so hard to accept?

As I said before - this is just the newest flavor of the same argument of "mine is better than yours" that's been going on longer than you've been sucking air.

It would be nice if anytime someone saw a swap they didn't agree with, they didn't feel the need to explain why…


It would be nice if anytime someone said "the Gen1 SBC is not the best engine in the world" everyone with a Gen1 or Gen2 SBC didn't jump in and get all defensive about their swap choice. The only reson people have to keep explaining themselves OVER AND OVER, is because you keep ignoring the facts, taking the fundamentalist point of view, and taking the discussion to a personal argument level. And it's obvious that you are, because you keep trying to say that it's BS, when the facts are widely visible, and obvious. I couldn't care less what YOU want. It's not about what YOU or I want. The simple fact is that the LSx family is a vastly superior engine design.

Now, if YOU want to go swap in a Gen1 SBC, then guess what. Nobody else actually cares. Don't flatter yourself. Humans want everyone else to do and believe the same things they do and believe. It has nothing to do with YOU. If it gets done and it's a nice install, people are going to compliment it, no matter what it is. Could be a Honda B16A2 and you'd still get compliments. Stop taking everything anyone says on the Internet as a personal comment about YOU. It's not. You're not that special.

But don't go around trying to call BS on facts, either.
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Report this Post05-24-2011 09:28 AM Click Here to See the Profile for IsoldeSend a Private Message to IsoldeDirect Link to This Post
Amen, Dobey. Amen.
Well, except nobody caring. I want to see new SBC Fiero builds. I want to see new mounting of the engine, and of the accessories. I want to see new headers. I want to see a fresh take on an old concept.

[This message has been edited by Isolde (edited 05-24-2011).]

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Report this Post05-24-2011 10:03 AM Click Here to See the Profile for XysterSend a Private Message to XysterDirect Link to This Post
Agreed (with Dobey).

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Report this Post05-24-2011 11:28 AM Click Here to See the Profile for DementiaClick Here to Email DementiaSend a Private Message to DementiaDirect Link to This Post
I wouldn't mind having a nice sbc swap even if they leak oil more then any other motor. Sbc owners are heavily criticized here so I don't blame them for going into hiding. I grew up on sbc's and they can be made to run. About 2500 bux you could build a nice 406 and have some nice hp #s out it. What I seen most on this board for along while was 283s, 305s, 327s which don't make a whole he'll of a lot of power which gives the sbc a bad wrap. I personally own 3800 swap but since this thread I've been looking on cl to see if there was a v8 fiero swap reasonable on there. no such luck yet though. I say each to his own and what makes them happy.
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Report this Post05-24-2011 12:33 PM Click Here to See the Profile for IsoldeSend a Private Message to IsoldeDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Dementia:
What I seen most on this board for along while was 283s, 305s, 327s which don't make a whole he'll of a lot of power which gives the sbc a bad wrap.


I can see this, but I'm not sure it's entirely um...um...entire. Even the worst 305, the '79, had a nice, instant-torque feel. Not a mountain of 500 Cadillac torque, but the response, right at 750 rpm, just felt better than ANY V6 I've ever driven. It was the same for many other people, too. Let's look, for a minute, at the mid-'80s Camaros. The 2.8 offered 135 HP, while the base V8 was just 15 horses up, and like 200 pounds heavier. The peak HP barely offset the weight. But the average HP, that's ALL to the advantage of the 305.
With the SBC swap, you can get that feel, even without getting 200 HP. The L36 does 200 HP. So many people see that, and decide that the SBC swap was a failure. But was it?
Horsepower is rightly associated with amazing speeds. Torque is what gets you moving from a dead stop. And if we look only at torque below 1000 rpm, in a gasoline engine, then the only realistic way to get more of it, is displacement.
Torque and the Fiero is a pretty-well-settled issue. Some is good, but too much is too much.
It's horsepower that makes for a really fast iero. And trying to get HP from most stock SBC heads is an uphill battle at best. Most of y'all aren't Mondello-level head porters.
How are you supposed to buy AFR heads after buying the SBC-into-Fiero swap kit? Anyone who can afford both is probably going LSx anyway.
And the Vortec heads are near impossible to find at the salvage yards simply because they're the best cheap heads, and everyone knows it.
So you can get the V8 feel from the 305, but it won't be fast. Anyone in the 48 states should be able to get a running used stock 305 for under $200.
If that was your goal, great. I can understand that. You'll get bashed, especially by Shaun Hammit, but that's okay too.
But 3 months after the swap is done and driving, why not do cam and heads? Yeah, you'll need another 500 rpm for it to start to feel like a V8, but even so, it'll still run with the L36. And until the boost comes up, that's a hair better than a stock L67.
You saved so much money on the 305, that doing the cam and heads can be viewed as relatively free, compared to just buying a running Vortec 350. Only this way, you can spread the costs out over whatever time you choose.
http://www.popularhotroddin...ne_blocks/index.html won't pass an emissions tailpipe sniffer test anywhere that does such testing, but will surely hush about half of the people who jeered your stock 305.
The main thing for doing an SBC Fiero is to do a really-high-flowing exhaust the first time, since the cost is about the same. Good exhaust flow won't kill the off-idle feel, and without good exhaust floiw, forget ever adding power later.
http://www.popularhotroddin...ne_blocks/index.html is surely as cheap as a same-HP L67, excluding the cost of the swap kit. And the worse MPG.
But to put this in perspective, I've seen 2 different dynos get 340-345 HP from pure stock "285 HP" LM7s with nothing more than headers. That's it.
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Report this Post05-24-2011 12:55 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Formula88Send a Private Message to Formula88Direct Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by dobey:


It would be nice if anytime someone said "the Gen1 SBC is not the best engine in the world" everyone with a Gen1 or Gen2 SBC didn't jump in and get all defensive about their swap choice. The only reson people have to keep explaining themselves OVER AND OVER, is because you keep ignoring the facts, taking the fundamentalist point of view, and taking the discussion to a personal argument level. And it's obvious that you are, because you keep trying to say that it's BS, when the facts are widely visible, and obvious. I couldn't care less what YOU want. It's not about what YOU or I want. The simple fact is that the LSx family is a vastly superior engine design.

Now, if YOU want to go swap in a Gen1 SBC, then guess what. Nobody else actually cares. Don't flatter yourself. Humans want everyone else to do and believe the same things they do and believe. It has nothing to do with YOU. If it gets done and it's a nice install, people are going to compliment it, no matter what it is. Could be a Honda B16A2 and you'd still get compliments. Stop taking everything anyone says on the Internet as a personal comment about YOU. It's not. You're not that special.

But don't go around trying to call BS on facts, either.


I wasn't calling BS on the "facts." I was saying it's BS to have to put up with the same tired argument over and over when that argument isn't the only point.
It's not a mosquito - there is a point flitting around your head, apparently just out of reach.

The SBC is NOT the "greatest engine in the world." I don't know anyone on here who has said it was (although I've met a few over the years). The BS argument isn't people saying the SBC isn't the greatest engine in the world, but that the owner made the "wrong" choice because of (insert selected facts here).

There are a lot of possible engine choices, all vary in difficulty, cost, and how easy/hard it is to make power. But when someone does a 3500 V6 swap or a 3.4DOHC swap, you don't see the 3800SC or LSX crowd rushing in to tell them it's wrong because they don't make as much power as easily as their choice.

You obviously don't agree, but personal preference is the only thing that matters. The strengths and weaknesses of any given engine choice all go in to making that choice, but in the end it's a personal choice based on the individuals goals and priorities. I'd never want to do a 3800SC swap for no other reason than I think it sounds like ass. It's a nice engine, but it's very heavy and sounds like crap. If all I cared about were quarter mile times, I might consider one, but that would also depend on what type of racing I wanted to do. If all I cared about were quarter mile times, a Fiero wouldn't be my chosen platform.

Yes, if anyone wants to swap in a SBC - a LOT of people care enough to come running to tell us how much the SBC sucks and how awesome their favorite engine is.
You can say people don't care, but history proves you wrong. Any thread about a SBC can demonstrate that fact. (you like facts, remember?)
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Report this Post05-24-2011 01:09 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Formula88:
Yes, if anyone wants to swap in a SBC - a LOT of people care enough to come running to tell us how much the SBC sucks and how awesome their favorite engine is.
You can say people don't care, but history proves you wrong. Any thread about a SBC can demonstrate that fact. (you like facts, remember?)


You seem to think that being loud and annoying pests is the same as caring. What you need instead, is to go have a beer and relax or something. People are loud about what they want. They don't really care what you want. See the difference there? Don't confuse vocal minority as caring about what you're doing. And it has nothing to do with SBC specifically. I've seen such bickering in EVERY type of engine swap thread. 3.4 PR, 3.4 DOHC, 3800, LSx, SBC, and everything else. But don't also confuse questions like "why didn't you do blah blah blah?" in a thread as bickering, either. Most of the time, they are just questions with someone interested in knowing the reasoning. Sometimes people will say "well that is idiotic" or something, but surely you can just ignore those and move on?
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Report this Post05-24-2011 01:51 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ArchieClick Here to visit Archie's HomePageClick Here to Email ArchieSend a Private Message to ArchieDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by v8fiero400:

Too old for the modern generation ?

Too low tech by todays standards?

Gas prices to high?

...small block chevys (350,305,400,327,etc) are still easy to find... still cheap to build... and still easy to get horsepower from

Why the lost interest ?



Well, have you got your answer yet.

10 days & 5 pages & all I see is a bunch of bickering.

It's like watching Housewives of New Jersey..... a bunch of bitches, bitching each other out (with the NJ accent) for no good reason.

All of them talking, none of them listening & it only stops for a commercial.

Archie

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Report this Post05-24-2011 01:58 PM Click Here to See the Profile for XysterSend a Private Message to XysterDirect Link to This Post
I must have missed the commercial breaks.
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Report this Post05-24-2011 02:08 PM Click Here to See the Profile for weaselbeakClick Here to Email weaselbeakSend a Private Message to weaselbeakDirect Link to This Post
"I'd never want to do a 3800SC swap for no other reason than I think it sounds like ass."


I guess that depends on who's doing the listening. I think it sounds great. See, opinions may vary....
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Report this Post05-24-2011 02:22 PM Click Here to See the Profile for IsoldeSend a Private Message to IsoldeDirect Link to This Post
What other kind of thread can we have for this swap?
I've sold 3 of my adapter plates so far, but 2 of those are local LM7 Fiero builds. The last one, a couple of weeks ago, is a 350, but that old boy is not of an internet age. He has more gray hair than brown. So forget seeing a build thread on his Fiero.
So, Archie, how many SBC swap kits have you sold in 2011? Any?
Who else still does SBC swap plates?
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Report this Post05-24-2011 02:31 PM Click Here to See the Profile for TXGOODClick Here to visit TXGOOD's HomePageSend a Private Message to TXGOODDirect Link to This Post
I would like to eventually do a swap of some sort and it is narrowed down to a 3800SC or a SBC.
I don`t know much about the 3800SC but the thing I don`t particularly like is that in some other thread
about the 3800 the question about rebuilding it came up and a couple of people, who I consider pretty
experienced in dealing with the 3800 were pretty adamant about not rebuilding that motor.
Now, a SBC loves to be rebuilt and there are plenty of parts available for it.
The not rebuilding of the 3800 may just be personal opinion or they may speak from experience, that I
can`t answer but I think I would prefer a motor that you can rebuild time after time if you want.
Just my .02

[This message has been edited by TXGOOD (edited 05-24-2011).]

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Report this Post05-24-2011 02:49 PM Click Here to See the Profile for XysterSend a Private Message to XysterDirect Link to This Post
Ok, asking a question and not trying to start another fight, just looking for clarification.

Why would anyone (besides cost) do a SBC swap when they could do a LS instead?

Like I stated I know the SBC is cheaper, but the LS has so many other benefits.
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Report this Post05-24-2011 02:57 PM Click Here to See the Profile for TXGOODClick Here to visit TXGOOD's HomePageSend a Private Message to TXGOODDirect Link to This Post
I would probably do a LT1 mainly because in my county you don`t have to pass emissions over 24 years old but you are suppose to have the same type of equipment that originally came in the car. ie fuel injection
Otherwise, I would probably have a carbed engine.
I admit I`m from old school and I really dislike computerized electronics.
I know enough mechanical to rebuild an engine or suspension or a lot of other stuff, but when it comes to computer
driven engines I`m lost.
With old technology if your car wasn`t running it could only be a couple of things.
Take for example the Fiero speedometer and the way it reads.
Years ago you could just change out the gear if your speedometer was off.
If you didn`t guess I like mechanical gauges too.

[This message has been edited by TXGOOD (edited 05-24-2011).]

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Report this Post05-24-2011 03:21 PM Click Here to See the Profile for engine manClick Here to Email engine manSend a Private Message to engine manDirect Link to This Post
LMAO
 
quote
Originally posted by Archie:


Well, have you got your answer yet.

10 days & 5 pages & all I see is a bunch of bickering.

It's like watching Housewives of New Jersey..... a bunch of bitches, bitching each other out (with the NJ accent) for no good reason.

All of them talking, none of them listening & it only stops for a commercial.

Archie



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Report this Post05-24-2011 03:31 PM Click Here to See the Profile for LZeppelin513Click Here to Email LZeppelin513Send a Private Message to LZeppelin513Direct Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Formula88:
I'd never want to do a 3800SC swap for no other reason than I think it sounds like ass. It's a nice engine, but it's very heavy and sounds like crap.


Haha +1, sounds like an ill and molested sbc (Though much better if a blower/ turbo covers up the ugly engine noise).
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Report this Post05-24-2011 03:32 PM Click Here to See the Profile for FierobsessedClick Here to Email FierobsessedSend a Private Message to FierobsessedDirect Link to This Post
I think the 3800 is the better swap for the Fiero, but the SBC is a better engine. Does that make sense?

If you are a modest fabricator and good at wiring, you can put a 3800SC in for minimal investment. You'll only need axles (automatic) flywheel (manual) and probably a fuel pump and some exhaust components. Your reward is a very flexible and reliable engine that will easily slide through your regular inspection in most states. It'll get 30 MPG, have that whine of a supercharger, and it turns heads.

The SBC swap has a bit of an upstart cost, namely the kit. Some people don't like the kit because in some ways it is a bit of a compromise with solid mounts an unconventional waterpump drive, even though it's been proven to function just fine. (no Archie bashing, the guy got it to work, many many times!)

In some places, an SBC swap raises a red flag when it comes to inspection time. I for one have never lived in a place where it isn't a bit of a pain in the butt to get it under the radar every year. I've never had an issue with getting my 3.4 DOHC through. I don't even let them know it's an engine swap. Certainly a carburetor is not an option in emission controlled states, the large bulk of Gen 1 SBC's are carbureted, then TBI which no one swaps in. Then you have TPI, which is ok down low, but not sporty in any way. Then the LT1-4 engines, which are pretty good, save for the fact that the reverse water flow which causes fitment issues with it's unique water pump. So the first gen motors are kind of crap with Fuel injecton, unless you go after market EFI ($$!) or carbureted, then it's a pain to get through inspection. I could see why the older SBC's are falling out of favor. It doesn't really have that much appeal anymore, especially with the younger crowd that grew up on EFI.

It does seem however, that the LS4 has struck a chord, It's EFI, 300 HP, and it's a V8 that doesn't require a kit. So its like an SBC, that has solved the short comings of the older SBC's.

Now, I havn't really addressed the other newer LS SBC's. They are a whole other beast. I'm surprised that we don't see more of them. Maybe it's a price and availability issue, maybe it's resistance to getting an install kit? Maybe the people that might have done the LS motors settled on the L67? I don't know.

I still see the L67 as a bit more appealing over the cast Iron blocked gen III/IV SBC's that are most common.

At least, thats what I think has happened with SBC discussion here. Simply, interest in this engine has fallen for now.
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Report this Post05-24-2011 03:58 PM Click Here to See the Profile for LZeppelin513Click Here to Email LZeppelin513Send a Private Message to LZeppelin513Direct Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Fierobsessed:

I think the 3800 is the better swap for the Fiero, but the SBC is a better engine. Does that make sense?


There is a lesson in this thread that seems many haven't learned. Everyone can have an opinion. There is zero reason to be bothered by others opinions. Period. (this applies to more than just Fiero's)

For example:
 
quote
Originally posted by Formula88:It's enough to make you want to give up the hobby after listening to the same BS argument over and over and over.


There is no reason that other people's opinion's should ever lead you to give up something you desire. If you want to put an engine in your car for X reason, do it. People get way too concerned with what other people think. Live your life the way YOU want and you will be a happier person. (laying naked on my couch eating grapes feeling extra philosophical this afternoon )
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Report this Post05-24-2011 04:21 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Fierobsessed:
It does seem however, that the LS4 has struck a chord, It's EFI, 300 HP, and it's a V8 that doesn't require a kit. So its like an SBC, that has solved the short comings of the older SBC's.

Now, I havn't really addressed the other newer LS SBC's. They are a whole other beast. I'm surprised that we don't see more of them. Maybe it's a price and availability issue, maybe it's resistance to getting an install kit? Maybe the people that might have done the LS motors settled on the L67? I don't know.

I still see the L67 as a bit more appealing over the cast Iron blocked gen III/IV SBC's that are most common.

At least, thats what I think has happened with SBC discussion here. Simply, interest in this engine has fallen for now.


I don't know that I'd say the LS4 doesn't require a kit exactly. It does require less effort if you stick with the transmission that came bolted to it. But it's not an easy install by any means.

And there are lots of LSx installs. But you probably don't hear as much about them because everyone who takes a car to Archie doesn't make another thread for it. The pics if there are any, end up in the "What's up" thread, and stay there. Sometimes a couple of them will make other threads with a video or a few pics, showing off their new LSx, but I don't think it's the general case for those swaps. And there are at least 4 people in my immediate area, who either have, or are currently working on having, LSx swaps. Myself included.

And I think the iron block Gen III/IV SBCs you're talking about, aren't being done in general, because they are truck motors. A couple people are doing them, but I think people tend to look for the car engines which are all aluminum now. Also, the Gen III/IV SBC and LSx are the same thing, so maybe you just got confused there? Did you mean Gen I/II?

I don't know that I'd say interest in V8s (SBC) has fallen, but there are a lot more 4.9 Caddy swaps these days as well. For the price/power you get with a stockish 283-350 Gen 1 SBC, it's probably cheaper/easier to go with a 4.9. And the 4.9 will get you through inspection easier, since it is PFI. And it doesn't require the adapter plates and such. Not so much aftermarket, but it's a sufficiently cheap/easy swap to get a V8 Fiero with.
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Report this Post05-24-2011 04:38 PM Click Here to See the Profile for IsoldeSend a Private Message to IsoldeDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by dobey:
And I think the iron block Gen III/IV SBCs you're talking about, are truck motors. A couple people are doing them, but I think people tend to look for the car engines which are all aluminum now.


The thing is, you can get the LQ4 truck 6.0L, with iron block, for $800. To get the aluminum-block 5.7L LS1 runs $2000. That price difference is not insignificant. In fact, it will pay for the swap, if you copy mine. And you can have just as much power, you're just 65 to 88 pounds heavy, depending on which source you believe. The LQ4 is at 9.41:1, but has the better-flowing heads. Mill those heads 0.030", you're around 9.9:1. That's very close to the LQ9's 10.08:1. The LS1 is already at 10.19:1
The LS1 does have a few advantages, to the Fiero swapper. The intake manifold and fuel rails fit, the '00-'02 F-car version exhaust manifolds are a great fit, the truck versions sure won't. The '98-'02 F-car version oil pan might work, the truck pan sure won't. The Ls1 accessory brackets are in demand, you can re-sell those. But the truck versions, the supply far exceeds the demand.
The LS1 injectors out-flow the LQ injectors, but the LQ has a 7 mm larger TB.
Now, factoring all that in, the cost difference won't quite cover the cost of the swap, but the LQ4 still costs less than the LS1. Enough less to cover ARP rod bolts, a mild cam upgrade, upgraded pushrods, and new LS6 springs. With the right cam, this can be 60 HP over the stock LS1.

The LS4, from the same source, is running $1400. My adapter plate is $65, and an LM7 is $500. Which is the less costly way to have a 5.3L now?

The truck versions are sure to become a more-popular V8 for the Fiero, than they are now. Because what's 88 pounds, when you're still lighter than a Vortec 350?
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Report this Post05-24-2011 05:01 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Formula88Send a Private Message to Formula88Direct Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Xyster:
Why would anyone (besides cost) do a SBC swap when they could do a LS instead?


Well, cost would be a major factor, but ignoring that some people like old school. They may be more familiar with it.
Like I mentioned the 3800 exhaust note, the SBC sounds different than an LS engine. (I think the LT1 F-bodies sound better than LS1 F-bodies).
There's also simplicity. A carbureated SBC doesn't even need an ECM. It's a very simple swap. (that's part of the popularity of 3.4 V6 and 4.9 V8 swaps, too)
I'm sure there are other reasons, and if you're looking for 250-400 HP you can go with almost any engine, so your options are wide open.

It all goes back to what you want from your car. Is it a show car? A drag racer? A cruiser? Daily driver?
Do you like low rpm torquey engines, or do you prefer high winding screamers?
Does the sound of a carb a full song make you grin, or do you live for that supercharger whine behind your head?
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