quote Originally posted by dobey: I don't think it's semantics. The volume at BDC vs volume at TDC are what determines the CR. The compression of air from the turbo does not alter either one of those; having compressed air enter into the cylinder from the intake only means that there are more air molecules in it than there would otherwise normally be. If your CR is 10:1 N/A, it is still 10:1 on 20 psi of boost if the heads were never pulled to change it during the turbo install. Let me give a better example to explain how it means effectively higher displacement: Suppose you have a 2.5L 4 cylinder. And let's say it has a CR of 10:1, and makes 150hp NA. What RPM it makes it at is irrelevant. It's not bad, but you'd like some more power. So you get a turbo, intercooler, injectors, and everything necessary for a turbo install. You get everything installed and tune the turbo to make 14.7 psi of boost. Now you're making about 300hp. Now, 14.7 psi is 1 atmosphere. In NA form, you were already displacing 2.5L of air and fuel molecules, at 1 atmosphere. Since the turbo is compressing at 1 atmosphere before entering the engine, what you've just done is effectively doubled your displacement by fitting 2 atmosphere of air into 2.5L of volume, giving you an effective displacement of 5.0L. All things being equal in materials, strength, airflow, and other general design of the engine, a 5.0L V8 with 10:1 CR and that 2.5L at 14.7 psi of boost, will make about the same hp, with different peak torque, and different power curves. Now, as for the comment about the turbo helping at cruising speeds "with a little push" and "warming the air slightly," I was talking about the slight increases in MPG that people see with turbos. At cruise RPM, even though the turbo isn't producing any "useful" boost for making power, the blades still spin and force a tiny bit more air into the intake, with a slight turbulence, and the air is heated as well, even if only very slightly. Both of these things help the fuel atomize better. So a very tiny (1-2 MPG) increase in fuel economy is expected, but not an amazing feat. Most people would gain that if they just paid attention to their tire pressure and take their foot out of the gas. Going 90 isn't going to save you any money, especially when you end up on the side of the road with a reckless driving ticket. I hear insurance companies frown upon those pretty badly.

I know that 14.7 boost is kinda like increasing the displacement by a factor of 2, but since you are getting that effective displacement in the original cylinder it's not exactly the same. I may be wrong, but if you compress that air into the cylinder and then compress it again with the piston it still seems to me that that air is finally compressed to 20 to 1. (14.7 boost and 10 to 1 compression) Smokey Yunick built the 2.5 "hot air" engine and caused a lot of controversy and speculation on how he was able to gain hp. I'm not sure that how he got that hp was ever resolved. Sorry for going away from the original post, but the points brought up are interesting to me. Back to the original post about sbcs, I pulled my sbc to replace with a modern lighter engine. I can see the advantage to picking up a cheap 350 {there are millions of them out there} and cheap and readily available after market performance parts. I don't think that there is only one "right" engine for the fiero. We all have out preferences and reasons for the choice we make. I'm not trying to make an argument. It's all good!!!

quote Originally posted by dobey: Running very low boost with stock injectors will give you a couple MPG increase, because you're very slightly leaning out the mixture, and the IAT is increased a little, causing a slightly better atomization of the fuel. But getting 2-4 MPG is easy by other simple changes without a turbo. The reason big turbos still see a 1-3 MPG increase at cruise speed, is because they're not making boost and power at 1500-1800 RPM, but the turbo is still warming the air and giving it a tiny little push.

A turbo converts wasted energy from the engine in the form of heat and pressure at the exhaust into work, increasing overall efficiency. Propperly applied, a turbo could increase fuel efficiency significantly for this reason alone.

quote Originally posted by jscott1: Is this on the road?? I've been waiting for an LS4 manual solution and this sounds ideal.

I am in the final streches and it should be running this summer... All the issues with the water pump, alternator placement, exhaust, engine/transmission mounts, custom flywheel, starter mount using LS4 starter, clutch for the custom flywheel, and axles have all been resolved. I am finishing the fab work for the longer intermediate shaft and shifter cables, then I will get back to the wiring. I plan to start and run the engine on my cradle fixture, then disassemble everything again for paint and the final install.

quote Originally posted by LZeppelin513: My oppinion, V8 is cooler than a 3800. My next fiero build will be an 8 (but something with revs too). In my oppinion 3800 is a gross engine (fact is, they do make cheap reliable power, but we all can have an opinion).

V8 is not specific, 3800 is.

quote Originally posted by jmbishop: V8 is not specific, 3800 is.

Its not meant to be, I would prefer any of the v8's I have seen swapped on this forum to a 3800.

edit: Don't get me wrong, I respect the heck out of many of the 3800 builds on this board.

[This message has been edited by LZeppelin513 (edited 05-19-2011).]

quote Originally posted by LZeppelin513: Its not meant to be, I would prefer any of the v8's I have seen swapped on this forum to a 3800. edit: Don't get me wrong, I respect the heck out of many of the 3800 builds on this board.

I have a 3800NA. It looks like it belongs there. It's fast, it's smooth as silk, I love it. I still wish I had another parked next to it with an old school carbed small block.

quote Originally posted by dobey: That's not a Pontiac V8. That's a GM family engine. These are what he was asking about: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pontiac_V8_engine

My opinion. If it came in a Pontiac from the Pontiac assembly line and was sold at a Pontiac dealer that way, it's a Pontiac engine

quote Originally posted by dratts: My opinion. If it came in a Pontiac from the Pontiac assembly line and was sold at a Pontiac dealer that way, it's a Pontiac engine

That's how it used to be up until GM started using corporate engines. Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but it is a fact that the lowly Iron Duke was the last Pontiac engine in existence in 1993.

quote Originally posted by jscott1: That's how it used to be up until GM started using corporate engines. Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but it is a fact that the lowly Iron Duke was the last Pontiac engine in existence in 1993.

Too true. Now a moment of silence for the duke and Pontiac.

There can be no argument as to which engine is best. It all has to do with individual taste. However, we can discuss swap costs, ease of installation, weight , horsepower and mileage. Some guys are thrilled with old school SBC.s other like the lightweight modern powerful V8s, others believe that the V6 (3800, 3400, 3900)fits better, while other like the the highway cruiser style 4.9L Cadillac . Some have even swapped in Ecotecs.

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" THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, 3.4" Pulley, N* TB, LS1 MAF, Flotech Exhaust Autolite 104's Custom CAI 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite.
"THE COLUSSUS"
87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H
" ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "

quote Originally posted by MaxCubes: LOL....Get a life ....and I guess your 3.4PR and muncie 4 speed is showing them V8s what a real man you are eh?

Your out of line! First calling most of us morons for some wiring stuff (and yes you did!) and now bashing TheRealShadowX. Besides I like his car and hes not a bad kid! Just one that learned the hard way on paying tickets

TheRealShadowX ignore this cat! Be a man and edit your comment on lashing out on this mindless jerk. We are family here and is a good place to enjoy time reading what others think of others builds.

Ok back on track. I would like to see a 350 chevy all aluminum build! Just think light weight and endless amount of upgrades.

quote Originally posted by Dennis LaGrua: There can be no argument as to which engine is best. It all has to do with individual taste. However, we can discuss swap costs, ease of installation, weight , horsepower and mileage. Some guys are thrilled with old school SBC.s other like the lightweight modern powerful V8s, others believe that the V6 (3800, 3400, 3900)fits better, while other like the the highway cruiser style 4.9L Cadillac . Some have even swapped in Ecotecs.

Wow, that might be the best arguement I have seen in this thread. +1

Agreed.

quote Originally posted by Dennis LaGrua: There can be no argument as to which engine is best. It all has to do with individual taste. However, we can discuss swap costs, ease of installation, weight , horsepower and mileage. Some guys are thrilled with old school SBC.s other like the lightweight modern powerful V8s, others believe that the V6 (3800, 3400, 3900)fits better, while other like the the highway cruiser style 4.9L Cadillac . Some have even swapped in Ecotecs.

WORD !!!!!

I don't understand why we argue about the best engine for our vehicles...does it really matter if its a 6 or an 8? Be honest with yourselves...we don't drive million dollar ferraris. We drive Pontiacs version of a ferrari thats 23+ years old. We all have the engines we feel comfortable with, for some of us that's the stock 4...some like the many sixes that can be slid in...I personally went with a SBC...Why? Because it was cheap and easy. I have a warmed over 383 that makes about 375hp...carburated...and will make this power for many many years without problems...This was the easiest way for me to do this, honestly how many sixes make this without 15 lbs of boost. When that type of boost is run you're really starting to build a small atom bomb.
I've run mine for 2 years now with no issues...I get 23 MPG...still have the stock Getrag...and I do drive it hard...no clutch dumps or power shifts but hard...can't we all just get along and enjoy our cars?

(Jay prepares for the barrage of insults now)

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87 GT...SBC...Fast as hell

I guess it's good that most people don't want a decent amount of HP, it makes passing them much easier and safer. It doesn't turn into a race, and doesn't take as much distance or time in the wrong lane. So, could everyone on earth, except me, please swap to a 92 HP 2.5L

My car still handles well

quote Originally posted by Isolde: I guess it's good that most people don't want a decent amount of HP, it makes passing them much easier and safer. It doesn't turn into a race, and doesn't take as much distance or time in the wrong lane. So, could everyone on earth, except me, please swap to a 92 HP 2.5L

It would be safe if people in this country would learn to STAY TO THE RIGHT. I can't even count the number of times I've seen cars speed up to get on the highway, and then immediately get into the middle lane, and slow down. And the idiots trying to drive 90 in a 55-60 zone in the right lane, even when the HOV is empty, don't help.

quote Originally posted by dobey: Not trying to argue, but seriously. I understand you don't like turbo cars, but don't be outright DUMB about it. Your statement is TOTALLY IRRATIONAL, and it's why the stupid 4/6/8 arguments exist in the first place. I prefer NA myself, but 15 psi of boost is nothing. And you probably don't even need that much to make 375-400hp on a 3800. If you think it is, I HOPE YOU SHIVER IN FEAR EVERY TIME YOU GET NEAR YOUR TIRES OR AN AIR COMPRESSOR.

Yeah it's easy to see where you're not trying to argue about it. Nice way to put someone down for their opinion. It's not like they said anything inappropriate, or insulting towards you, but hey as long as you put the disclaimer that you're not TRYING to argue right?

quote Originally posted by dobey: It would be safe if people in this country would learn to STAY TO THE RIGHT. I can't even count the number of times I've seen cars speed up to get on the highway, and then immediately get into the middle lane, and slow down. And the idiots trying to drive 90 in a 55-60 zone in the right lane, even when the HOV is empty, don't help.

This is so true. In fact (at least here in Washington) it is illegal to even drive in the left lane unless passing. If this law was actually enforced, traffic, accidents, and especially road rage would all be dramatically reduced (me included regarding road rage). Nothing ticks me off more than some idiot cruising in the passing lane, holding up the flow of traffic and making people hit the brakes as someone is forced to pass him on the right.

I don't care if you are going 90 in the left lane and someone comes up behind wanting to pass, get over and let him pass.

[This message has been edited by LZeppelin513 (edited 05-21-2011).]

Hey Dobey...I'm not trying to argue either...the fact is 15 lbs of BOOST is a lot. Name me one factory car that runs that kind of boost...name me one that runs even 10 pounds of boost...coming up short? There AREN'T any! I'm not saying that there aren't alot of built cars running that much, just factory...The point is that if you're not REAL careful about your fuel pressure what happens? I know....BOOM! You need to understand the difference between a tire starting at 0 psi and a cylinder starting at 170. I was not insulting your way of approaching the problem...I was only explaining the reason for my solution...simplicity...durability...POWER. My car isn't a standing start drag racer but from a roll I'll take on anyone.
OH yea...just to let you know I'm not some kid with his first car I'll let you know I've had MANY fast cars. 5.0 mustang...LT1 transam....a miata with a 5.0....presently an LS1 transam which in anyones book is freakin awesome...and this is my fourth fiero now and I personally wouldn't have a six in it because I don't want to fall into that ricer look but thanks anyway. If thats what you like then fine but I grew up in the days when a small motor was still 300 cubes. Oh yea I'm 40 in case you wondered

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87 GT...SBC...Fast as hell

the gm 2.0 ecotec LNF turbo motor runs 20 psi of boost stock .you said name one .DI makes it all possible .if you want to see a group that is really active in V8 swapping , look at the drift racers .LS motors NA are the hot ticket there , swapped into just about everything .

Hey JAY....
Where do you get the idea that a 3800 SC or TC motor in a fiero is RICER?? Just because it is not naturally aspirated...?? An AMERICAN made quality motor in an AMERICAN made car......Being from the 5.0 world and knowing that some of the fastest mustangs are actually turbo cars I am kinda surprised to hear that... I am ALSO 40 years old and have had many v8 sportscars but there is no discounting the fact that MOST of the fastest fieros happen to be turbo or supercharged 3800 cars... Not to say that a GOOD v8 cannot compete at all....just that this motor seems to be a VERY good fit for the car... Also what makes you think your car can roll on with any of these fast cars on here anyways... got any proof?? Peace

Pete

touche WF I didn't realize that there was a factory job pumping that much...I stand corrected. Pete...back to the point...it doesn't matter what you like as long as your happy with your car...I happen to have a guy with a 3800 near me and with his stovepipe exhaust it sounds like a mad nest of hornets. Do I have a timeslip of my car? no...but I can tell you it's much faster than my LS1 is... Again everyone takes this all wrong, if you're happy so be it I sure am. I wouldn't change my decision for anything. I'm just explaining that in my case a SBC was cheaper...faster...and infinitely more reliable than a turbo motor would be. My only failures in two years have been axle shafts.

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87 GT...SBC...Fast as hell

Jay,
I am not arguing that fact....just that you said it was ricer.... I dunno about your friends 3800 but I have driven and ridden in a decent 3800 SC intercooled swap and I find it hard to believe that ANY motor would be MUCH better than that in the car. I do not even have a swapped car yet but I have pretty much decided that it will be a 3800 in some form or another just from that drive. I have owned several quick v8 sportscars and a bunch of 5.0 mustangs and capris so I am not immune to the desirability of the v8 rumble and torque. Just that the formula I drove had TONS of power everywhere and it was way more than the car could really make use of. I could just imagine what a really well built turbo 3800 must feel like. The v8 and other swaps are all great and cool in their own way and I am not saying any is better than another but I am saying that I have pretty much made my choice for mine... Peace

Pete

quote Originally posted by jaymelk2: Hey Dobey...I'm not trying to argue either...the fact is 15 lbs of BOOST is a lot. Name me one factory car that runs that kind of boost...name me one that runs even 10 pounds of boost...coming up short? There AREN'T any! I'm not saying that there aren't alot of built cars running that much, just factory...The point is that if you're not REAL careful about your fuel pressure what happens? I know....BOOM! You need to understand the difference between a tire starting at 0 psi and a cylinder starting at 170. I was not insulting your way of approaching the problem...I was only explaining the reason for my solution...simplicity...durability...POWER. My car isn't a standing start drag racer but from a roll I'll take on anyone.

Well, as wftb said, the LNF, which was in the Solstice GXP, Sky Redline, Cobalt SS, and HHR SS. And pretty much any of the turbo diesel heavy duty pickup trucks will hit up to 30 PSI boost in stock form.

My way of approaching the problem? Not sure what the problem is, but one of my cars is getting an LS4, and the other is getting a High Feature V6. Both will be naturally aspirated. I'm not sure why you went and capitalized power there. Your iron 383 making 375 HP isn't exactly much power. There are tuned 3800 turbos on here making over 500hp reliably. The guys with LS376s are making 480hp at the crank. And troyboy's LS7 Fiero is making 480hp at the wheels. Heck, the 2012 Camaro V6 will be making 325 hp at the crank with a naturally aspirated V6. And it's 3.6L compared to your 6.3. Sorry to burst your bubble, but you're not making that much power. Any stock C6 Vette would destroy your hopes and dreams in a race from a roll.

Now, V8s are great, but so are the new V6s and even 4 cylinders out on the market today. But I would never swap a Gen 1 SBC into anything that wasn't a matching numbers total resto of something that came with an SBC in it. It's just not worth it, and it's not going to make you lots of power if that is what you're going for. The LSx series V8s are just vastly superior engines in every way.

the LS series V8 motor is the only V8 i would consider swapping in to my fiero .i have an ecotec for one reason: light weight in the rear .it makes an amazing difference in handling .the LS would only be about the same weight as a 2.8 .the 3800 is heavier so i dont want it .the reason i dont do an LS ? I am lazy , i have read all the threads and all i see is a lot of work .maybe some day , but i like golfing too much to spend that much time on a swap .

quote Originally posted by dobey: But I would never swap a Gen 1 SBC into anything that wasn't a matching numbers total resto of something that came with an SBC in it. It's just not worth it, and it's not going to make you lots of power if that is what you're going for. The LSx series V8s are just vastly superior engines in every way.

It's comments like this about the SBC that really make me wonder what cave are these people living in ?

First of all, it's not that difficult to get over 1,000 HP out of a SBC, in fact there's been people taking them to 2-3,000 HP, just check you tube out. Now that kind of power isn't practical in a Fiero unless you can build a trans/halfshafts to handle it. The fact is that the Fiero is Horsepower Limited with a manual transmission, and frankly not very many people want an automatic in their Fiero (that could change though with a really good 4-5 speed automatic that could be packaged in there without breaking the bank).

The newer engines have a little better technology built into them, but some of the same technology is also available in aftermarket parts for the SBC as well, if your rebuilding an engine. It's a personal choice as said by many above. Personally, I think the new engines are butt ugly, they put plastic covers over them to hide the ugly looks. The AutoMakers quit "Styling" Engines to save money, at least you can make a SBC look good without going through a lot of trouble and expense.

I enjoy seeing all the different engine swaps here on the forum - the "stockers" even interest me, it shows the diversity of this group on the forum, and the variety of expense budgets they are operating in. Opinions vary widely on the internet, that can be expected, we all joined this forum to be part of a Fiero Group for positive reasons I would hope.

The 3800 SC is a thing of beauty in a Fiero, to be sure. But a good old SBC dressed up a bit with a carb tends to boil my blood. Much better looking to me than all these newer V8s. Arguing about the power is silly. 300 HP in a Fiero is sick enough.

this thread sure makes me LMAO

Once again you knuckleheads turn everything to the wrong side...I understand that a lot of guys like v6s...thats fine. It's just in MY case a v8 was a much better and cheaper option. I understand that 375 hp isn't a lot from a SBC but can any of your 6s pull those numbers for $1000 total? I've got less than 2000 in my car as it sits although by the time my dash swap and paint is done this summer I'll probably have $3500...The point is I've got an 87 GT in pretty good shape with 17" rims AND a SBC for this $2000 I spent $500 on my block and 302 heads {chevy} and then put my cam...intake and carb on for another 525...easy 375 hp...and yes it was dynoed.
I don't argue that there are fast v6s...I just think it's easier for the v8 IMHO. Oh yea the zo6 remark....yes one could probably take me by a little from a roll but how many do you see? and how much do they cost? our cars are supposed to be about fun, remember my 23 year old ferrari remark? Plus I'd rather have my GT than a ZO6 anyway

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87 GT...SBC...Fast as hell

cant we all just get along !

[This message has been edited by MaxCubes (edited 05-25-2011).]

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TRSX

The Zombiero - "Thrice resurrected"

1985 GT, 4 Speed Muncie, 3.4PR V6, 15" Lace GT wheels, Power everything, sunroof, Red with gray effects. Driven and enjoyed daily.

[This message has been edited by TheRealShadowX (edited 05-23-2011).]

quote Originally posted by wftb: the LS series V8 motor is the only V8 i would consider swapping in to my fiero .i have an ecotec for one reason: light weight in the rear .it makes an amazing difference in handling .the LS would only be about the same weight as a 2.8 .the 3800 is heavier so i dont want it .the reason i dont do an LS ? I am lazy , i have read all the threads and all i see is a lot of work .maybe some day , but i like golfing too much to spend that much time on a swap .

Engine weight differences are not as bad as you think. Going from a 2.8L/Auto to a ZZ4/manual I only gained 30lbs. The mid-engine design of the Fiero allows any weight changes to have a very minimal effect on handling. I upgraded my suspension back in 2002. I did the V-8 swap in fall of 2004. Being that I run laps around road courses, I can tell you there is no handling differences due to the 30 extra pounds.