What does a SBC (not a LQ/LS/LT) do that a 3800 doesnt do better?
It's kind of unfair to want to exclude the LSx line from the comparison. They are of the same generation as the series 2 and 3 thus making a more even playing field.
In reality though, it is an apple and oranges comparison. I firmly believe that when it comes to cost, efficiency, simplicity, and making power, the 3800 is the BEST choice FOR THE FIERO PLATFORM!!! Hence the reason I picked it myself. But you also have to understand that not everyone is out to break speed and power records. Not everyone street races, dynos, or runs the 1/4 mile. Why give anyone grief about doing what they want to do.
I guess the fact that I have multiple projects/platforms that I tinker with, allows me to be open minded about different engines and combinations. Again, it's all about the platform it's being used in. I have a 3rd generation F-body with a modded 350sbc, and if anyone were to tell me I would be better off with an L67, I would laugh in their face, but if I had an SBC in a fiero and told me the same thing, I would agree 100%
I'm losing my train of thought now, so to sum up the point I'm trying to make...V8 Fieros are cool, and so are L67 Fieros, just let people do what they want to do, it's their car, not yours. Stop bickering because it's getting really old, really quick.
No offense intended toward anyone, I hold a lot of respect for most everyone on this forum.
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07:00 AM
Oreif Member
Posts: 16460 From: Schaumburg, IL Registered: Jan 2000
Originally posted by Genopsyde: just let people do what they want to do, it's their car, not yours. Stop bickering because it's getting really old, really quick.
And there you have it, Why are there very little discussions? Because the bickering is getting old.
If you start a thread on a particular subject, It is always same folks (on a particular subject, Not the same member for all subjects) that are the ones who come in and start arguing. It isn't just the SBC threads, But there are a few subjects that can lead to bickering and depending on the subject, most here can tell you exactly who will post negative responses.
[This message has been edited by Oreif (edited 05-15-2011).]
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08:22 AM
joshua riedl Member
Posts: 1426 From: watertown wi USA Registered: Jan 2004
Dark speeks up a little and everyone keeps it going so some blame is to be held by everyone. The real issue is GM. They are making plenty of powerful options these days it's hard to go wrong no matter which way you go.
cost effective power for the fiero i will say the 3800 gets the most bang for the buck up to a certain power level then it starts evening out and the v8 starts being cheaper but most of the folks don't want over 400 HP and the 3800 can do that cheaper then a V8 SBC
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09:18 AM
chrishahn87 Member
Posts: 1584 From: East Berlin, Pa - USA Registered: Dec 2004
why dont you see much sbc v8 discussion any more ? most younger people have never owned one and dont see why a fiero might be better with one .they want the motors they grew up with , not the ones grampa grew up with .
I am currently 30 years old. I never thought I would have been considered "grampa" when I installed a SBC in my Fiero when I was 22!
I have entered my SBC Fiero into many car shows, Fiero exclusive, Hot Rod/Musclecar exclusive, and everything goes type shows. One thing that I have NEVER heard was a negative comment from another person about putting that motor in my Fiero. Anyone else with a V8 Fiero ever talk to one of these internet toughguys face to face? Its all here, on the internet, where you can hide behind your keyboard and be as tough as you want!
My SBC Fiero is by far NOT the fastest, and has never actually even been raced. That was not my intent when I decided on that motor. I chose that motor because it was what I wanted. *see avatar picture*
I love to see Fieros that are modified. I also love to see Fieros that have different engines, all of them! Chris
cost effective power for the fiero i will say the 3800 gets the most bang for the buck up to a certain power level then it starts evening out and the v8 starts being cheaper but most of the folks don't want over 400 HP and the 3800 can do that cheaper then a V8 SBC
You nailed it.
And honestly the ones that come here claiming they need 400+hp dont really know what they want. They have never driven a 2500 pound car with 400hp in it before. I have, It's a scary beast that is on the line of wild animal. Downshift at 30mph and punch it and before you can react the car is loose and like riding a wild bronco. they are too busy trying to get bigger peacock feathers of a HP number to understand reality. A fiero with 200hp in it is a drastically faster car than the stock one. and most people would be VERY happy with just the jump to 200hp.
I love a V8 fiero, I love a 3800sc fiero, I love a 3.4L pushrod fiero.
I agree it is geting old that some are going on to others build threads and give them a hard time about engine choice I know of 1 right now they are giving a guy a hard time about the LQ1 and that is wrong we should be trying to help with telling what to look out for and how we think it could be repaird made stronger but some think they must bash whats being done my car is my fun toy the same as most so for the hater's basher's shut the**** UP
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10:55 AM
blackrams Member
Posts: 31841 From: Hattiesburg, MS, USA Registered: Feb 2003
I am currently 30 years old. I never thought I would have been considered "grampa" when I installed a SBC in my Fiero when I was 22!
<<<<SNIP>>>>
I love to see Fieros that are modified. I also love to see Fieros that have different engines, all of them! Chris
Chris, You're welcome to visit me in KY anytime. If you decide to do so, I'll try to get Bluegrass Fieros together and you'll see quite a few. From SBCs to LS4 and N*. We do have some fun and there are five distilleries within about 10 miles, all on curvy, hilly roads.
Who cares what motor is used in a Fiero; as long as it has more then stock, its all good!
As far as cost, again, WHO CARES! Were not putting bigger motors into our cars as an investment. We are doing it for the enjoyment it gives us...
Its all about having fun with our lil cars - This is a hobby for most of us; it should put a smile on our faces when we sit in the seat and feel the power we created
Who cares what motor is used in a Fiero; as long as it has more then stock, its all good!
As far as cost, again, WHO CARES! Were not putting bigger motors into our cars as an investment. We are doing it for the enjoyment it gives us...
Its all about having fun with our lil cars - This is a hobby for most of us; it should put a smile on our faces when we sit in the seat and feel the power we created
+1
And a + for you
[This message has been edited by Sourmug (edited 05-15-2011).]
once again , everyone misses the point of a thread .this thread asked why we think there isnt much v8 discussion any more , not what moter is better .i am a grampa , but i did not infer that you had to be a grampa to like one .i had my last v8 in 1998 and that was in an f150 .i have not had a car with a v8 since 1980 .
once again , everyone misses the point of a thread .this thread asked why we think there isnt much v8 discussion any more , not what moter is better .i am a grampa , but i did not infer that you had to be a grampa to like one .i had my last v8 in 1998 and that was in an f150 .i have not had a car with a v8 since 1980 .
I try to share but if I get a lot of negative response I just stop. Thats why I haven't been posting about my car.
Its a lot of fun. My 2.8 was a fun car but there was just something missing. I started driving in 1981 and had 3 V8 cars before I turned 18. If you told me I would be driving a V6 back then I would have called you crazy. When I got a chance to install a V8 in my car I jumped at it. But I would have done something as the 2.8 was just not scratching my itch. For me the V8 is just something I grew up with and always wanted in my cars.
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08:13 PM
cooguyfish Member
Posts: 2658 From: Hamilton, OH, USA Registered: Mar 2002
Couple things I keep reading recently that are driving me insane;
→In a thread about different engine swaps people always say something like "this engine with XXX done to it can make 700 HP!!!! WHO CARES!!! is there even a 700 HP fiero? no, not that I'm aware of, and if there is 1, it's probably the only one. →do this to a 6, then do it to an 8 and you'll have more power WHO CARES AGAIN!!!! are you running a turbo SBC? not likely, sure there are a few but quit talking about what you could do and how much more power it makes. I really don't care what you could do and since you didn't do it it's not relevant. →This engine swap is dumb, or that engine swap is dumb I STILL DON'T CARE!!!!!!!!!! For the love of pete, people like SBC's, people like 3800's, I'll bet the ecotec will gain quite a following over the next 2 years. Does it matter it if Joe Schmoe picks a different engine than you?
CAN we not just be happy that Joe Schmoe is taking the time to keep another fiero up and running?
Me, what would I do? IF, and it's a big IF, I ever do and SBC, it will be a chevy 302. With the fiero's light weight, good traction, short gears, etc, I personally think it's mated best to a higher revving engine.
My choices right now (I have the parts to build any of these).
2.8 crank/rods/pistons in a 3100 block 3.4 camaro crank/rods/pistons in a 3400 block 3100 3400 3500 anything I want saturn 1.9 related
I even have enough parts to build more than one of almost all the above.
I might even do an ecotec.
I can tell you this though, it will be a 5 spd, I will rev it to 7,000. I'd be thrilled with 200-225-250 HP in my car. More than enough for me, with short gears I'm sure I'll crack off a 12.9 or faster. (I shift fast) Incase you doubt my skills, I took a 2300lb, 165 HP car to 14.47 @ 99 with a 2.41 60'. I'm sure if I gain another 50 HP, and traction I can break 12's.
Just please, do what ever makes you happy and support your fellow fiero brothers in there aspirations. After all, any one of these cars could go to the junker tomorrow, but we're keeping these classics alive.
-Brandon
Edited to add, I wouldn't do an SBC swap personally. I happen to be 26 (if that's relevant). My goals are good gas mileage, high revs, reliability, parts availability, and easy to work on.
I know an SBC can accomplish a few of these task's, but the more I work on 4 cylinder cars, with all the room around the engine, the more I like them. You can not tell me it's as easy to work on an SBC in a fiero as it would be to work on an ecotec fiero.
[This message has been edited by cooguyfish (edited 05-15-2011).]
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08:50 PM
wftb Member
Posts: 3692 From: kincardine,ontario,canada Registered: Jun 2005
I had ruled out a V8 swap about a decade ago. After reading this, I am warming up to the idea of a LS, but am still leaning heavily toward 3800. I was never really a big SBC fan, only because when I was 16, the 3800SC was in the ballpark of the LT1. Now that some time has passed and Engine Masters has proven the LS can quickly become overkill, a V8 is tempting.
On another thought, is there any handling penalty for a V8 having the weight more to the passenger side? (Pictures always make the V8 engine bay look very lopsided)
BTW my current Fiero project is a Quad 4 swap.
[This message has been edited by Xyster (edited 05-15-2011).]
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10:47 PM
Ruffy Member
Posts: 597 From: jersey shore pa Registered: Jun 2008
I am a huge fan of all the motor builds on here. Ive seen some really nice 3800 builds and at the same time some V8 builds. Its all in what you what out of your car. I think the price of gas has to be the most of the downfall of the 350. The 350 motor itself is everywhere. In fact its the most manufactured US motor out there. There is nothing wrong with a 350 build and i would love to see more builds of them. I myself would like to do a 350 but it would have to be all aluminum for weight. Plus the sound of a lumped up, camed out chevy 350 like Jake_Dragon makes me tent a little lol.
Now if people are comparing the power of the 3800 vs the 350 then there is going to be an issue. stock vs stock i would do the 3800sc. But modified the 350 will kill it every time hands down. I dont mean to piss anyone off by that comment but a fact is a fact and before you piss and whine do your research please.
I just cant wait to be done with my exotic motor build. If these little teenage kids call the 350 a gutless grandpa then my build must be a ancestor. Hint hint the valve cover is stamped Chrysler Fire Power on it. And no your 3800 dont stand a chance So stay with your 4 inch chrome fart cans on the rear and ill stay with my grandpa 3 inch chrome tips :P
On another thought, is there any handling penalty for a V8 having the weight more to the passenger side? (Pictures always make the V8 engine bay look very lopsided)
Does this look like a penalty ?
Car weighs 2817.
Distribution is: Front..648..........624 Rear...762..........783
That was with my old L98 350, the new 350 with the Hilborn Injection is a little lighter.
Now if people are comparing the power of the 3800 vs the 350 then there is going to be an issue. stock vs stock i would do the 3800sc. But modified the 350 will kill it every time hands down.
A modified 350 will kill an unmodified 3800sc? Depends on the mods I guess, but sure, I can see that...
But then again, what happens when you start to mod the 3800sc; things begine to level out some... According to the PFF qtr mile thread, some of the quickest Fieros are 3800 powered. Not that that make it a "better" motor swap. I am sure reliability is compromised quite a bit when your pushing that kind of power through a 23+ yro chassis/drive train regardless of motor
[This message has been edited by ALJR (edited 05-15-2011).]
1. I love the low end TRQ of the V8 2. I love the sound of the V*. 3. Nothing clears out an auto parts store like a V8 FIERO!
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**************************************** 88 Formula CJB Arrived Finally. #689 of 1252 Time to start Working TONY! There are Two kinds of Fiero's : Notchies and Donors!
I love how any thread about V8s turns into a 3800 vs SBC bashing contest, regardless of what the OP asked. And even when people try to keep discussion on topic, people have to keep commenting on the V6 vs. V8 nonsense.
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08:40 AM
cooguyfish Member
Posts: 2658 From: Hamilton, OH, USA Registered: Mar 2002
I love how any thread about V8s turns into a 3800 vs SBC bashing contest, regardless of what the OP asked. And even when people try to keep discussion on topic, people have to keep commenting on the V6 vs. V8 nonsense.
The bashing is annoying, however the v6 vs v8 part is completely legitimate in this thread. The op asked why no so many less v8 swaps/talk. Probably because so many people are doing V6's these days.
-Brandon
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08:50 AM
fieroboy_gt Member
Posts: 324 From: Lewiston, Maine, USA Registered: Mar 2007
I also have had a lot of swaps. I have to say the SBC swap was the first and most disappointing. I removed it after two weeks and sold off the parts. It was not for me it killed the handling of the car. The 4.9 V8 with five speed to date is my favorite. I'm working on a LS4 in my wife’s car I hope it will be my new favorite.
I've had 2.5s, 2.8s, 350s, N*s, turbo N*s, and I'm doing a turbo ls4 now. The turbo N* is fieroaddictions old car and the back end jumps sideways when the boost comes on even though it is way off tune. I can only imagine what the turbo ls4 is going to be like with an estimated 640 hp. My v8s are aluminum and that is my reason for going away from sbcs. I know that you can get an aluminum sbc but it will be expensive. In conclusion, 2.5s and 2.8s are adequate, but all the others are fun.
Distribution is: Front..648..........624 Rear...762..........783
Just out of curiosity, What causes the 24 lb. difference between the front weights? I thought everything looked pretty symmetrical under the front hood.
Originally posted by cooguyfish: The bashing is annoying, however the v6 vs v8 part is completely legitimate in this thread. The op asked why no so many less v8 swaps/talk. Probably because so many people are doing V6's these days.
I don't think so. There are plenty of people doing V8s still, but we're all also tired of the stupid pointless bashing. Also, the Gen 1 and 2 SBC platforms are tired old boring things. The LSx family is where it's at now. And I think most people who are doing LSx swaps, just have Archie do it. And they don't tend to make their own threads outside of any pics/comments on the "What's up at Archie's?" thread.
On the other hand, it seems like everyone who is getting a 3800, even when having bmwguru, whodeanie, or someone else install it, starts their own threads as well as the comments in the "What's up at XXX's?" threads.
There are a LOT of V8 swaps happening still, but it seems like the 3800 crowd just tends to be more vocal.
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11:44 AM
fieroguru Member
Posts: 12128 From: Champaign, IL Registered: Aug 2003
Just out of curiosity, What causes the 24 lb. difference between the front weights? I thought everything looked pretty symmetrical under the front hood.
Probably the steering column, instrument cluster/wiring, brake booster/master and pedals... all are on the DS. Preload of the suspension could do it as well.
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12:24 PM
Pete Matos Member
Posts: 2291 From: Port St. Lucie, Florida Registered: Jan 2010
I am planning on a 3800 build eventually for my car. It is inspired mostly due to the large amount of Successful 3800 installs that are currently running on here. The fact that MOST of the fastest fieros are running this style of motor is also a large contributing factor. Mine will HOPEFULLY be a turbo car. Having ridden in and driven a 3800SC car I was pretty much sold on it that day. Brutal accelleration and when you are not on the go pedal it was a relatively docile sounding motor and if you ask me and my wife who also heard it sitting in my garage idling you'd swear it was a v8 under the hood. I also think that for the size and weight of the car and the many many well documented swaps it is a good fit. Then if you look around at other cars running the same motor the limiting factor becomes the transmissions pretty quickly. Many people have shown that these motors can make a very fast fiero and amazingly still return decent gas mileage. Another factor in my choice is just that the motor looks good in the engine bay. With the supercharger or turbo the installs just look well done and with the many people making bolt on parts and install parts for it, well it becomes a relatively easy decision for me. MORE than enough power for the car and a good weight balance as well as the wide availability of these engines since they came in so many different cars from Gm and it gets real simple. Can you put an LS motor in the car and make more power, well sure but it is probably gonna cost a bunch more, can you possibly use more power than the 3800 can provide? well that is where it gets iffy, if you want to drop big coin on a custom built tranny and cryo treated parts and heavy duty axles then yeah you MIGHT be able to use some of the extra power. There are quite a few 3800 motors running ridiculous times in other types of cars so the debate about which can produce more power is kinda questionable..... It comes down to realistic power and what you can do with it. Let's face it, there are far too many import four cylinder motors that run crazy boost and produce ungodly horsepower on dynos and in the quarter miles so it really comes down to what you can ACTUALLY use in a fiero..... The engines are NOT the limiting factor here at all. With the right parts and a proper build and enough cash you can basically name your horsepower number with either of these motors. What you cannot do is get it to stick to the pavement when you hit go..... But luckily there are guys on here that are working on that right!! I hope.....PLEASE......!!!
I really do not think that MOST of these guys on here bash either motor. Just because someone post a strong opinion or supports one or another motor choice does not make it bashing.... There are a few exceptions of course but mostly it is all about making these amazing little cars go like greased stink.... and isn't that what we are all wanting on here. Personally if I can get it with my meager funds, I want my fiero to be able to beat MOST cars at the streetlight or the strip that are not out and out drag cars. If I can hold my own or better yet take a new vette at the light in my 20 plus year old economy sportscar and look good doing it then I will be tickled pink..... That is the goal and with either of these motors it is attainable. Just a lot of work and money and some good planning. I wish all of you the best of luck with your builds WHATEVER the motor may be and I cannot wait to see a fiero run 9's in the quarter that is still a fiero and not some tube car drag chassis beast.... Peace
Pete
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12:34 PM
qwikgta Member
Posts: 4659 From: Virginia Beach, VA Registered: Jan 2001
I love how any thread about V8s turns into a 3800 vs SBC bashing contest, regardless of what the OP asked. And even when people try to keep discussion on topic, people have to keep commenting on the V6 vs. V8 nonsense.
Dude!!! You read my F***ing mind. I hate when this S**t happens. We all love Fieros. Get over it. Any Fiero that can move under its own power is a car we should be talking about. Lets all get back on track, and keep them all on the road. V8, V6, or 4cly who cares, get out there and drive them.
The SBC is a non-issue in the Fiero world anyway. guru could do a swap for half the cost of the least-costly Archie kit, and getting a useable 350 is a $165 proposal at all the salvage yards around me. The L67 can get the performance, fits better, is cheaper to do, also runs $165 if you're lucky like me, is 10 mpg over the SBC, WCF got Cali approval, and so on and so on. But study PFF. You find precious few threads on the best build for a 350 for a Fiero, and NONE of them are serious. For comparison, go look on tgo. Here, those threads mostly focus on the duke, the 2.8, and it's derivatives. Fieros don't need torque engines, and that what 350s inherently are. The LS4 can equal an old 350 in every way, as far as Fiero fun goes. The torque is adequate, the potential is adequate, the weight is less, the rpm range is higher, the emissions are cleaner, the mpg is better, and the EFI is now simpler and cheaper than trying to do TPI. The only neg is the cost. Guru went off the deep end with cam selection, and is gaining more like an extra 1000 rpm over stock, about 1500 rpm over his old 350 combo. I'd like to see a resurgence in sBC Fieros, done bu guys and gals who come from TGO. But that won't happen. Back in the late '80s, I wanted a 350 Fiero. IIn the early '00s, I still did. I even went so far as to test fit one to my Fiero. But now I'm building a 6.0L from the LSx family. The SBC just can't compete. These days, it akes over 500 RWHP if you want to play. Seriously. And the LSx can get there for the same cost as the SBC, but be lighter, more rev-happy, cleaner, more reliable, and more efficient at the same time. If the SBC was the flathead, then this would be 1970.
