Well it has begun, and actually has been in the process for awhile now. I just thought it was time to put some of my project out here and see what you guys think.

Start off with an 88 base coupe that is a little rough:

80k miles
Air Conditioning
Cruise
Manual windows, locks, and mirrors
Hard Top
2.5l 4cyl
3sp Auto

Then I stripped the car in preparation for painting, sound deadening, and rust repair.

The plan for the car:

Front Suspension, Frame, and Frunk
I will be cleaning up all the metal and painting it, replacing all bushing ball joints and tie rods, and down the road sway bar. I will be mounting the battery in the spare tire well, swapping in a c3 Corvette master cylinder and replacing all brake lines, hard and soft, with stainless lines. Finally I will be swapping in lowering springs and a set of 12" rotors left over from my TTop GT build.


This car was also hit in the front before I got ahold of it, and it was for the most part very well repaired, I worked out some more of the crunch. Sadly it appears that it tweaked the mounting bolts for the passenger head light, won't be a fun fix, had washers when I got it.
This is behind the front z beam on the passenger side.


Rear Suspension, Frame, and Trunk
Again I will be cleaning and painting all the metal, and fixing the rot under where the battery did some damage.

The trunk isn't going to get much work, there is a small spot of rust on one side starting to show. It will get scuffed prepped and painted.
The rear brakes will be getting the same stainless treatment with 12" corvette rotors with stock 88 calipers.
The suspension is going to get self built coil overs on Monroe Sensatrack Struts with QA1 12" 250lbs/in springs over a 7" adjustable sleeve with spring perch. The lower links of the suspension are going to get fresh poly and all links will be shortened 1/2" and the lateral link is going to get reangled to keep the bushing in proper alignment. The shortening is done to run a 265 tire in the rear.
The cradle bolt floating nut is getting replace with Rodney's kit, I managed to twist the rear driver side bolt in half and left about 1" of it still in the floating nut…
The Decklid hinge is going to be cut down for engine clearance. The springs will be removed and replaced by Rodney's strut set up.
A stock 88 Gt sway bar is going to be added, and eventually upgraded with one of Paul's sway bars, when the front is done.
One things I am slightly concerned about, the gas fill tube is starting to rust, I am sure it is surface rust, but not sure if it is something that I can paint over to protect it, or if I need to swap one from one of my parts cars in.


Interior and Gauges
This is the First part of the car that is going to be done in stages.
To start the interior was stripped. Then I swapped in a set of manual pedals and a 5 speed shifter.

I am going to replace the carpet and seat belts with new black units. and the rest of the interior is going to get painted black. I plan to get a set of Corbeau GTS II seats:

And I will run a series of Speed Hut Gauges with white numbers and black faces consisting of a: GPS Speedo, Tach, Wideband O2, Boost, Coolant Temp, Fuel Level, and Oil pressure. All of these will be mounted like Randye did just with two center gauges on the main pod.

Underneath all this will be a layer of sound deadener, still haven't decided what kind or what approach, but it will get there when it needs to be.

Wheels
I bought these wheels originally for my TTop car based on my love of a wide tire, they are 18x7s and 18x9s running a 215 and a 265 tire.

With the rears being an 18x9 with a 35mm offset they stuck out about 1/2", hinting the upcoming shortening of the trailing links.

These will be getting fresh 215/40/18 tires for the front and 265/40/18s for the rear. And down the road I might get the wheels painted black… we will just see.

Body
I am going kind boring here. I am planning a stock 88 coupe body with, hopefully, a set of Kahines 1/4 windows. We will see where I go from there when it gets down to it.

Engine
This is a little more hush hush until I can get a few things worked out that will make things go the way I want.
But for the basics I picked up a couple of the crate motor 3.4 TDCs that were available not too long ago, about 4 hours drive from me, in Missouri. I am going to run a Getrag 5 speed behind it. Everything will probably run a custom mount of one kind or another to set this motor down as low as I can get it.

The one thing that I plan for this engine is to run a Megasquirt 3. It will be my first stand alone computer car and I hope I can make it work out great.
One thing I will let out of the bag that will end up sitting next to the engine, maybe not on the first install, but will get there sooner or late.

This is a Holset HE351vgt. I plan to run the variable geometry on it mechanically with an internal wastegate actuator, but I might run the mechanical actuator off the megasquirt's boost controller capabilities, or straight run the electronics off megasquirt, I will have to read more first.

I will be slow at it, but I will be adding more pictures and information as I make it to that stage of the build. Soon there will be some pictures with the frame and such outside, it should boost the image quality, not having the flash wash things out.

Ask any questions you got and i will try and answer them best I can, I will have plenty of questions as the build progresses.

I hope to have this on the road in some form or another before the end of the summer.

Chris

I do have one question, and that is why you are going the TDC route. Is it just because of the crate engine deal or something else?

I have a series 3 supercharged 3800 on a 5 speed, a lot of work went into exhaust, equal length headers, 3" system, resonator, spintech muffler, corvette resonator tips, and after all that I took a rather crapping sounding engine and make it sound atleast acceptable, actually I quite like it these days

So my thoughts were, if I put that much work into this engine, especially with getting it so cheap, and turbo it, and a few other things I am going to end up with more than enough power for a daily driver, plus with the red line of this engine, all with the 60 degree v6 architecture I think it will work out to sound beautiful, and do what I want.

Chris

Do you know what a turbo 3800 sounds like with a turbo muffler? It has a better exhaust note than the DOHC. Should have gone in that direction me thinks.

I know you'll never install that turbo, even if there was space for it.

I don't mean to be harsh, but when you say "you'll never install that turbo", are you saying you don't see me, who you know very little about, installing that turbo? Or are you just speaking figuratively?

Also, yes I have heard 2 different turbo 3800s, and no it doesn't sound bad, I also have an extensively built exhaust system on a 3800 that I got to sound good, is it fair to want something different?

Oh, and I also don't want the instant torque of the 3800, I don't need it, and if I want it, again I have another fiero with a 3800 in it.

We will have to see what has a better exhaust note through out all driving conditions (aka 7000 rpms ) when I get the turbo set up done... or if I ever get the turbo set up done...

One last note on that, I got the engine for $300, I think everything added together, I will be quite happy, I could be wrong though, only time will tell.

Chris

So your building this swap just for the sound? I was going to do this swap myself, and in my opinion is a lot more trouble then its worth, but that's just me.

Which part is more work than it is worth?

From what I gathered of your parts you were selling, mine will be a little different, and probably a lot more work. Running the stand alone computer, a completely different transmission, a custom intake, headers, and a turbo.

And what am I going to get out of it?
-An exhaust note I will tweak until I am completely happy with it.
-With upwards of 15psi I should get close to 400whp
-With the custom intake I should get great throttle response
-And the best part, another fiero without a 3800

People, I understand your negative attitude to things, and that some of you have been burned by this engine before, but I have 2 3800 fieros, and I have helped build another, and I am sure I will help build more than enough of them in the future, and I just don't want another one. I was going to run a turbo 3400 for good power and good sound, but when these TDCs came up for sale cheap I took advantage of them. And by the time the 5 that were bought here within 50 miles of me are in cars I am sure I will be ready to change it up again to be different.

We all have our reasons, and I guess some people just don't agree with mine, more power to me I guess

Chris

Good response, I like your personality, and your reasoning. You'll never fit that turbo because, 1: Everyone says 'Oh look what I've got, a train supercharger, I'll be putting that on!', and then nobody does. 2: Because that turbo is almost as large as the transmission, so you have no where to put it but the trunk, were it cut out. Matt Hawkins is the ONLY person in the last 6 years with the patience to keep one of these engines together under boost. Aaron's car disappeared, Jeff's car disappeared, and the monster build at RFT fell apart because of bearing failure. There's also the new guy with the Ferrari rebody, but I don't know enough about his setup or how long it's been together (probably not long). Matt's using an itty bitty turbo, and there's still hardly any room to work in the engine bay - as if there's room to work with just the DOHC heads in the way.

You know what Aaron's engine bay looks like? I would rather be pulled across nails than work with his setup, or deal with the heat:



When everything's said and done, the DOHC is kind of twitchy with boost. Driveability seems to fall off a lot. And then there's reliability.

How many people have turbo 3800's.... a handful... How much press do they get? Not a lot. If you put a turbo on a 3800, you'd be the only one in 4 states with that setup. Who cares about supercharged 3800's? They do sound bad, they aren't very fast, and they're expensive to mod. All you have to do with a junkyard 3800 block is throw a set of stronger springs on the valves to prevent valve float, and you can make 400 bhp on a stock cam, stock head, and stock headbolts. But maybe you know all this.

Anyway, you've already picked up that engine, and it was a great deal. Best of luck getting everything together. Take care of it, don't wind it up until its warm, always check the oil, and make sure you use extremely thick mounts from all angles. The TDC is very top heavy, and does not want to sit still when stoplight racing.

[This message has been edited by L67 (edited 03-15-2011).]

Now I have to say you have changed my opinion of you, what you have said is very well put, and I appreciate hearing what you have to say, I will love to get more constructive criticism from you as the build progresses.

If it comes down to a trunk install I will do it, I am not too worried, my l67 car I use as the dd had a trunk full of an old wiring harness a huge set of castors and misc fiero parts for about 8 months and it didn't bother me a bit.

Also if the drivability is diminished that much from the turbo I can asses that then, and again I have a 3800sc fiero or two that could take advantage of the turbo.

Ok that engine bay, it is pretty awful and crowded, and the placement of some of the stuff seams really odd. I hope with megasquirt, my custom intake I am planning, and front mount battery I can clean that up quite a bit, only time will tell though.

As for the turbo itself, it is large, but isn't unmanageable and with the variable geometry I am not worried about spool times or being laggy, and worst case scenario, and I end up with turbo lag, I will use it to my advantage and keep the city and highway cruising civil, and just keep the rpms up when I want to play.

I am a very civil driver, and scared of my cars blowing up, so I treat them the best I can, and so far they are lasting me pretty well.

Now the turbo 3800, yes they are proven, make easy power and aren't too common, I just will wait until I have to do one .

Chris

Good luck, I look forward to seeing this build.

Some old pics of my 96 motor in my 88. I used the WCF motor mounts and trans mounts. No custom $$ and it fit fine, no movement. Dog bone in stock location, but I should have done it another way. I used a stock 91 ECM/Harness with the 96 motor. Had a custom chip burnt, no big $$$ for that. I know your going turbo, so you may get away with the GP Turbo ECM. The 91 ECM was a stock 5 speed one, so no extra wires for the A/T to worry about. Harness was a *itch to make, but in the end it worked great. Exhaust was custom headers run in the stock location, worked great, sounded awesome. I was toying with the idea of keeping the headers and pips but swapping out the muffler for a turbo similar to athe STS setup. Again, good luck.









lots more if you have any questions.

Rob

[This message has been edited by qwikgta (edited 03-15-2011).]

quote Originally posted by L67: Good response, I like your personality, and your reasoning. You'll never fit that turbo because, 1: Everyone says 'Oh look what I've got, a train supercharger, I'll be putting that on!', and then nobody does. 2: Because that turbo is almost as large as the transmission, so you have no where to put it but the trunk, were it cut out. Matt Hawkins is the ONLY person in the last 6 years with the patience to keep one of these engines together under boost. Aaron's car disappeared, Jeff's car disappeared, and the monster build at RFT fell apart because of bearing failure. There's also the new guy with the Ferrari rebody, but I don't know enough about his setup or how long it's been together (probably not long). Matt's using an itty bitty turbo, and there's still hardly any room to work in the engine bay - as if there's room to work with just the DOHC heads in the way. You know what Aaron's engine bay looks like? I would rather be pulled across nails than work with his setup, or deal with the heat: When everything's said and done, the DOHC is kind of twitchy with boost. Driveability seems to fall off a lot. And then there's reliability. How many people have turbo 3800's.... a handful... How much press do they get? Not a lot. If you put a turbo on a 3800, you'd be the only one in 4 states with that setup. Who cares about supercharged 3800's? They do sound bad, they aren't very fast, and they're expensive to mod. All you have to do with a junkyard 3800 block is throw a set of stronger springs on the valves to prevent valve float, and you can make 400 bhp on a stock cam, stock head, and stock headbolts. But maybe you know all this. Anyway, you've already picked up that engine, and it was a great deal. Best of luck getting everything together. Take care of it, don't wind it up until its warm, always check the oil, and make sure you use extremely thick mounts from all angles. The TDC is very top heavy, and does not want to sit still when stoplight racing.

Looks like we've got the all knowledgable TDC guy here.

Funny.. I know of TWO turbocharged TDC's, that I have seen with my own eyes in Canada that you've never even heard about. Not to mention that one of them has been running for 7 + years easily and its probally one of the fastest fiero's I've ever seen / heard about.

Twitchy with boost? LOL. Any evidence of this? Drivability? The fiero I rode in was plenty drivable.

He chose his engine / setup and you guys are giving him **** for it? Give me a break. I would way rather have a TDC over a 3800 any day of the week, its a personal preference, he doesn't an L67 in this car, so accept that and bugger off. It's his build thread. If he installs the turbo thats great, if not, well thats too bad. Only time will tell.

I really do hope you go through with mounting that monster.. haha Even if it is just a monster in the closet!
Best of luck buddy!
Chase.

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[This message has been edited by Custom2M4 (edited 03-15-2011).]

quote Originally posted by Custom2M4: Looks like we've got the all knowledgable TDC guy here.

Still driving a Miata?

quote Originally posted by L67: Still driving a Miata?

Not for a few years now. They are pretty good handling cars though. My 87gt's build thread is in the construction zone, and my Audi's build is on audizine. Feel free to take gander at either, or PM me if you'd like to make any more stupid comments.

quote Originally posted by Custom2M4: Feel free to take gander at either, or PM me if you'd like to make any more stupid comments.

Remember the last time you and I talked about the TDC in 2007?

quote Originally posted by Custom2M4: Lets just say that I'm not planning on going the "easy route" on anything for this car. Look at what I do to my other cars, my fiero is the baby. I must conclude that Although I do like the TDC engine, the capable power output of a monster TT SHO is far more competitive then what a tdc is capable of. Keep in mind that I am talking about more then a few hundred horsepower.

How'd that go by the way?

So far so good. Just using a N* instead. Feel free to PM me, or come to my thread. This doesn't belong here. Sorry for the side track eph_kay.

Per Chase's request, we're going over to the bar to "talk, ***** or shoot the **** ".

Thanks qwik for the pictures and info I am sure I will asking you questions down the road.

Thanks Custom for letting me know there are a few more turbo TDCs out there, sadly it makes me more a "one of many" kind of swap, but again, I don't care too much about that.

And L67 I still appreciate what you have to say, I just now want to prove you wrong too

Chris

Hope you don't mind my using your photo, Qwik.

Once I get the bugs worked out on mine (all stock, crate motor) I have plans for adding a turbo. I'm thinking of locating it at the 90* bend in the down-pipe. The turbo would become the 90* and there's room for it there.

quote Originally posted by eph_kay: I just now want to prove you wrong too

Knock yourself out man.

Please don't take that disrespectfully L67, I doubt you will, but I could be wrong, it is just another motivational thing for me.

Does anybody have thoughts about the gas filler tubes being rusty?

Thanks,
Chris

quote Originally posted by eph_kay: Please don't take that disrespectfully L67, I doubt you will, but I could be wrong, it is just another motivational thing for me. Does anybody have thoughts about the gas filler tubes being rusty? Thanks, Chris

Yes, my Fiero filler tube had a lot of surface rust, I coated it with POR 15.

Cool, I got POR15 for this project and I will coat the tube with it!

Thanks,
Chris

quote Originally posted by eph_kay: ...I doubt you will...it is just another motivational thing for me.

You're right, I didn't. If you want to use my devil's advocacy as motivation feel absolutely free to do so. Print out a little poster of what I said verbatim, hang it on the wall, do what you need to do.

I talked Matt out of doing his DOHC swap a little bit ago. I had the truest intention of circumnavigating him around a headache, and from what he showed me afterward it looks like he really dodged a hollow point. I don't mean to rob anyone of the experience. I've already traveled the path Matt was going to take and the path you're getting ready to take. Painful as it was, it was a learning experience, but I'm walking on a much sunnier road now. I believe you have every right as a human being to experience whatever you want in life, I was just pointing out what I think is a happier path. I don't go out of my way to dispense advice on this forum much anymore, too many words go unheeded by the illiterate who peruse here, and I don't have time for that. So don't worry about offending me, it's your life, don't pay attention to what others want you to do with it.

There is a ground strap on the end of the filler tube to prevent static discharge, be sure you don't coat the contact patch.

quote Originally posted by L67: You're right, I didn't. If you want to use my devil's advocacy as motivation feel absolutely free to do so. Print out a little poster of what I said verbatim, hang it on the wall, do what you need to do. I talked Matt out of doing his DOHC swap a little bit ago. I had the truest intention of circumnavigating him around a headache, and from what he showed me afterward it looks like he really dodged a hollow point. I don't mean to rob anyone of the experience. I've already traveled the path Matt was going to take and the path you're getting ready to take. Painful as it was, it was a learning experience, but I'm walking on a much sunnier road now. I believe you have every right as a human being to experience whatever you want in life, I was just pointing out what I think is a happier path. I don't go out of my way to dispense advice on this forum much anymore, too many words go unheeded by the illiterate who peruse here, and I don't have time for that. So don't worry about offending me, it's your life, don't pay attention to what others want you to do with it. There is a ground strap on the end of the filler tube to prevent static discharge, be sure you don't coat the contact patch.

L67 is exactly right, I have said what I have said in this thread because of what I learned from him, and what I saw with my own eyes. I got a used DOHC for $150, and I was told it had new bearings and gaskets. Looked like it on the outside. After building a complete wiring harness for it, I decided to look deeper and see what it really looked like inside because of what L67 told me. Long story short, the engine was complete junk that would need a total rebuild. I got cash for 497lbs of scrap the next week (had other stuff in that run as well).

So I really wish you luck, and I hope you are successful in your goals.

Wait, now you are trying to say that you helped Matt dodge the bullet of a worn out motor? that is nice for him, but what does that have to do with this engine in general? I Paid $300 for a 0 mile crate motor, does that mean it will work perfect? no, but I also paid a little over $1000 for a series 3 3800sc to my door a number of years ago with 40k miles on it.

Anyway, I have been putting time into the intake currently, and spent yesterday getting the old rear suspension off the cradle and getting the old engine ready to leave, I started working on the front suspension to get the steering rack out so I can drop the subframe for reconditioning.

Chris

eph:

Looking forward to reading this thread and seeing your progress. I'm a 3.4 DOHC fan too.

Nolan

In my local area, I personally know three people who have cars with 3.4 DOHC swaps. They love them so take what L67 says with a grain of salt. His 3.4 DOHC swap went bad and ever since he has been on a crusade to crap all over anyone else that tries the swap.

quote Originally posted by sspeedstreet: Hope you don't mind my using your photo, Qwik. Once I get the bugs worked out on mine (all stock, crate motor) I have plans for adding a turbo. I'm thinking of locating it at the 90* bend in the down-pipe. The turbo would become the 90* and there's room for it there.

Nope, no prob at all. I have more to share.

I was going to remove the bottom of the trunk, remove the muffler and locate the turbo there. One reason was that I could keep the Cat Converter in the stock location. I live in a state that requires the Cat. Similar setups are on the STS turbo site. I was not going to use an STS kit per say, but I was looking at the idea of removing the muffler and using that location for the Turbo. I was offered a sweet deal on a turbo setup from Shawn (yes that Shawn) back before I did my LS3 intsall, but his setup did n't work for me. He wanted to sell the manifolds, the crossover pipe, turbo, all the hardware and electroics. I would have only used the turbo and electronics in that system so I passed. I think you would have room for a turbo if you installed it in same location as the stock V6 air cleaner area, like others have, but heat would be an issue that would need to be addressed. By putting the turbo downstream in place of the muffler, you move the heat out of the engine bay (kind of). I think that Fiero's would work well with this setup, becuse you only need to pipe the turbo from the trunk area up to the intake, and in the DOHC motor the TB is already located in the best spot for it. I was also going to modify the 96 intake by removing the TB arm, and cutting down the upper intake "runners". I was going to mount a 3" pipe on top of the cut down upper runners for a direct flow into the motor. A few have done this, with the turbo setups. (search for the thread, and i have pics if you need it). If I had more confidence with the turbo setup I would have done it. I loved the DOHC motor, it was fun. someday many, many years from now, I may dive into the turbo world. For now, I'll let the LS376 provide the power I need.

Again, good luck and PM me if you need any help.

Rob

quote Originally posted by qwikgta: Nope, no prob at all. I have more to share. I was going to remove the bottom of the trunk, remove the muffler and locate the turbo there. One reason was that I could keep the Cat Converter in the stock location. I live in a state that requires the Cat. Similar setups are on the STS turbo site. I was not going to use an STS kit per say, but I was looking at the idea of removing the muffler and using that location for the Turbo. I was offered a sweet deal on a turbo setup from Shawn (yes that Shawn) back before I did my LS3 install, but his setup didn't work for me. He wanted to sell the manifolds, the crossover pipe, turbo, all the hardware and electronics. I would have only used the turbo and electronics in that system so I passed. I think you would have room for a turbo if you installed it in same location as the stock V6 air cleaner area, like others have, but heat would be an issue that would need to be addressed. By putting the turbo downstream in place of the muffler, you move the heat out of the engine bay (kind of). I think that Fieros would work well with this setup, because you only need to pipe the turbo from the trunk area up to the intake, and in the DOHC motor the TB is already located in the best spot for it. I was also going to modify the 96 intake by removing the TB arm, and cutting down the upper intake "runners". I was going to mount a 3" pipe on top of the cut down upper runners for a direct flow into the motor. A few have done this, with the turbo setups. (search for the thread, and i have pics if you need it). If I had more confidence with the turbo setup I would have done it. I loved the DOHC motor, it was fun. someday many, many years from now, I may dive into the turbo world. For now, I'll let the LS376 provide the power I need. Again, good luck and PM me if you need any help. Rob

Well, a turbo is going to get hot wherever it's located and I like the idea of keeping the added weight as low as possible. I built a car with a top mounted turbo once and I brushed my arm against the exhaust too many times to do it again. As for the electronics, I moved my coil packs to the battery location.

quote Originally posted by eph_kay: I Paid $300 for a 0 mile crate motor, does that mean it will work perfect? Chris

Yeah I know, so take care of it; don't flog it when it's cold, keep the oil topped off, and be sure its mounted as stiffly as possible. I talked Matt out of the DOHC explaining to him why other engines would be better suited for his needs, finding out the engine was garbage was just icing on the cake. You've got a new engine, so you don't have to worry about wear and tear. Instead, put lots of thought into engineering the mounts in such a way the engine doesn't stress fracture **** during clutch dumps. Ex. dogbone, I went through three dogbones, and two sets of mounts before I decided to use a more compact power plant - the 3800. Small things like this concrete other engine candidates a mile above the DOHC in my opinion. But you said yourself you were chasing sound, and that's really the only thing the DOHC does do well.

I am curious as to what motor mounts have you decided on? I too picked up a 3.4 DOHC and am working my way through various places-threads to determine the best way to mount the motor.

marc-alan

I am going to be making custom brackets to lower the drivetrain as much as possible into the engine bay, and I have a set of poly bushing halves that I had planned for a different car, but will work just fine on this one, but still haven't decided. Rubber had crossed my mind, using the dodge mount, but things here suggest otherwise...

If all this car does is sound good and run right I will be happy, if it performs well it will be quite the "unexpected" bonus

Chris

I used 90 duro. poly for my mounts, and solid mounted the top half in two spots to a bar welded across the frame using standard tie rod ends.

quote Originally posted by L67: Ex. dogbone, I went through three dogbones, and two sets of mounts before I decided to use a more compact power plant - the 3800.

That really isn't a fault of the 3.4.

If anything, it's because you can't design engine mounts properly.

And drivability has more to do with the tuning, not the powerplant itself.

[This message has been edited by pmbrunelle (edited 03-17-2011).]

quote Originally posted by pmbrunelle: That really isn't a fault of the 3.4. If anything, it's because you can't design engine mounts properly. And drivability has more to do with the tuning, not the powerplant itself.

You got proof of this?

I'm not defending him, since I have been there myself, that engine is WAY too top heavy. All the weight, besides the engine block, is in the cam carriers. Ever picked one up lately? And the fact they are so high for the center point of rotation increases the forces against any dogbone that much more.

No offense Matt but that's crap.

Talk to Fieroking, he has no problems with his DOHC, it's mounted rock solid without a dog bone, I know as I've driven it. Yes I know about the cam carriers I've handled them. But be honest, you are not basing your comments on your personal experience you are are only repeating what you heard from L67.

You guys don't like the 3.4 DOHC and that's fine, there's a reason that engines come in so many different flavours. However, the issues that you guys are listing are mounting problems not engine problems, the cars that they came in aren't breaking dog bones or having heads banging into the fire wall.

Not bashing, just expressing my opinion.

[This message has been edited by Sourmug (edited 03-17-2011).]

Chris,

I will have to drop by and see what new goodies you have been cooking up!

\/\/

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I just got in from pulling an all nighter to finish base coating. I'm tired and going to sleep, but I'll fire off a few replied.

This garbage first.

quote Originally posted by pmbrunelle: That really isn't a fault of the 3.4. If anything, it's because you can't design engine mounts properly.

One, I build better mounts than anyone in this thread, particularly you. Of course the 3.4 is a "bolt in swap", so I really didn't need to build anything but a dogbone bracket, which I built out of quarter inch steal and placed exactly where it needed to be to counter rotation about the axle. I even have the energy flow diagram Steven and I drew up in 2008 floating around somewhere, so you can step off. You drive around in a stock 2.8, don't even think about lecturing me in automotive engineering.

Two, the DOHC is unusually tall, and carries 46 lb weights at the very top of each bank. Also, the Fiero cradle mount footprint is much narrower than the width between the tops of the carriers. Because of this, controlling inertia of the engine is unusually difficult, much more so than the tightly packed, lower center of gravity, pushrod alternatives which sit inside the mount footprint. Therefor careful thought and planning must go into this area of installation. If mounted traditionally, the engine is see-sawing on the '88 V6 mount, and a dogbone and transmission mounts are the only thing preventing the engine from 'falling over' pivoted on the front mount. I was helping put together the "All things 3.4 DOHC" thread when it became common practice to recommend using an addition anchor mount at the front of the cradle to relieve load on the dogbone. I was happy to add it as my West Coast aircraft grade aluminum dogbone stress fractured under the load I was demanding of it. The engine still moved enough to break another dogbone, and so I decided to upgrade to all poly mounts from West Coast. Due to the reduction in energy absorption, I cracked my 100% factory '88 front engine mount in half. I welded it back together and it cracked again in another place. I also folded a transmission mount into an origami folding when trying to jump start my engine without the dogbone installed - a dogbone is an absolute necessity if the engine is mounted with a single center placed mount, such as the stock '88 mount.

Nolan, while it's true Matt is reverberating a lot of what I said to him in an earlier message, he did get it from me and I do believe it. Not only does the dogbone need to control more rotational mass than normal, but it also has to deal with it from a different direction. The smaller engines rotate into the path of the dogbone as they come over the axle, the DOHC (depending on where the dogbone is anchored at the engine) tries to rotate over the dogbone mount at the firewall.

quote Originally posted by Sourmug: Talk to Fieroking, he has no problems with his DOHC, it's mounted rock solid without a dog bone.

Joe's setup is literally identical to mine in 2008, the only difference is that I beat the living piss out of mine. He does use a dogbone. One of the more prominent reasons I scrapped my setup is because I couldn't beat on the engine like I intended to, I spent all my time fixing things that would break when the engine mounting would crack or the stock Getrag transmission mounts would collapse. I built my setup the same way everyone else was building theirs at the time, and coincidentally, the same as Joe. With the 3800, I don't even have the anchor point at the front of the cradle anymore, and I can clutch dump at 4000 rpm with confidence despite having 60 more torque on exactly the same mounts. If I were to ever build another DOHC setup, I'd build feet on each side of the engine to increase the mount footprint, just like it's setup in the W-Bodies.

All food for thought eph.

[This message has been edited by L67 (edited 03-18-2011).]

It is one thing to give your experience and give advice on how to avoid the problems that you encountered. That is good advice.

It is bad form to bash the engine choice of the OP in their build thread and to try to convince them to go with another engine choice.