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UND_Sioux's 88 Formula Build Thread by UND_Sioux
Started on: 10-02-2010 05:46 PM
Replies: 21
Last post by: UND_Sioux on 04-16-2011 09:02 PM
UND_Sioux
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Report this Post10-02-2010 05:46 PM Click Here to See the Profile for UND_SiouxSend a Private Message to UND_SiouxDirect Link to This Post
I finally decided to start a build thread for my 88 Formula. I purchased the car in December of 2009 in Southern California. It is an 88 Formula with just over 90K. It has an automatic, power windows, power locks, and non-CJB T-tops. Initially, I wanted to find a T-top GT since I prefer the fastback look. However, this rust free Formula was too good of a deal to pass up. I plan on converting it to a fastback body. Now I know I may get some heat from a few purists that will say this is too nice of a Formula to modify, but I prefer the fastback, and the 88 GT T-tops in this condition go for quite a bit more than I paid for this car.

Here are the pictures from when I bought her. A few of you might have seen her before.













[This message has been edited by UND_Sioux (edited 10-02-2010).]

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UND_Sioux
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Report this Post10-02-2010 06:01 PM Click Here to See the Profile for UND_SiouxSend a Private Message to UND_SiouxDirect Link to This Post
I left the San Diego area on a Friday night and drove her all the way to Houston in time to tailgate at the Texans game Sunday morning. It was a long drive, but she did pretty well. The brakes were pretty bad, the A/C was missing it's belt (no big deal in December), and blower motor kinda had a mind of it's own. Other than that, it was a pretty good ride.

Here she is in the garage:



Let the tear down begin:





Engine and cradle are out:



[This message has been edited by UND_Sioux (edited 10-02-2010).]

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Report this Post10-02-2010 06:46 PM Click Here to See the Profile for LT188GTSend a Private Message to LT188GTDirect Link to This Post
Still standing by
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UND_Sioux
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Report this Post10-02-2010 07:31 PM Click Here to See the Profile for UND_SiouxSend a Private Message to UND_SiouxDirect Link to This Post
All the body panels were removed and put in storage for later use. I'm attempting to do this in 1/2 of a two car garage. I'm have to be very efficient with my space and I am using shelves with parts stacked all the way to the ceiling. Thanks God for a 9 ft. garage. The interior was removed and put in storage. While I was debating what engine to put in this thing, I starting fixing a few small issues that were driving me nuts. Both doors were removed and I replaced the hinge pins and bushing. I also changed the door striker bolt to the Ford F150 one. While I had the doors off, I removed the window glass, changed the power window motors, lubed everything, and reinstalled the doors. I'm waiting to put new window glass in sometime closer to completion.

My Dad had some extra 2 inch square tubing laying around, so after the pain in the butt of dropping the cradle on a cheap furniture dolly, we welded together a cradle stand/dolly. With the legs on, it is a cradle stand. If you remove the legs, the base rolls the cradle low enough to slide it under the car. I saw something similar on PFF, and it was my basis for the dolly. I used the old casters from the furniture dolly, so the entire thing cost only a few bucks since the steel tubing was free. :-)

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UND_Sioux
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Report this Post10-02-2010 07:43 PM Click Here to See the Profile for UND_SiouxSend a Private Message to UND_SiouxDirect Link to This Post

UND_Sioux

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One of the things that I can't stand about an old Fiero is the dirty fiberglass insulation in the engine compartment. Not only does it look bad, but it traps dirt, oil, etc... and also makes it harder to get to a few things. I needed something to replace it. Additionally, I wanted the car to be well insulated from both heat and noise. I decided to go with LizardSkin ceramic insulation. Before that, I decided to remove the battery tray and the dog bone bracket. It was a good time since the Lizard Skin would cover up the metal where the battery tray and dog bone were. Two gallons covered the floor boards, the interior firewall, and the entire engine compartment. I looks and feels a little like bed liner for trucks, but it is not. It is extremely heat resistant and is a good sound insulator as well.







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Report this Post10-02-2010 07:52 PM Click Here to See the Profile for josef644Send a Private Message to josef644Direct Link to This Post
What part of Houston are you in? I am up by Livingston.
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UND_Sioux
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Report this Post10-02-2010 08:14 PM Click Here to See the Profile for UND_SiouxSend a Private Message to UND_SiouxDirect Link to This Post
The Woodlands
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UND_Sioux
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Report this Post10-02-2010 08:24 PM Click Here to See the Profile for UND_SiouxSend a Private Message to UND_SiouxDirect Link to This Post

UND_Sioux

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In August, I found an 86 GT parts car up near Ft. Worth. I bought it for the fastback swap. Honestly, I wish I would have held out for a better car. This car was pretty rough. It had been hit in the front, the tail lights were bad, and most of the panels were mediocre at best. I was able to get the rear clip, lights, door panels, fenders, rear bumper, bumper absorbers, tail light harness, etc... Unfortunately, I forgot to remove the front wheel wells, so I'll have to source some later.

I paid $500 for the car. Fortunately, the car had a NOS quarter window. I sold it to a forum member and recouped half of the cost of the parts car.

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UND_Sioux
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Report this Post10-02-2010 08:32 PM Click Here to See the Profile for UND_SiouxSend a Private Message to UND_SiouxDirect Link to This Post

UND_Sioux

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With a little help from the 88 Service Manual, I swapped the tail light harness with the one from the parts car. It took a little troubleshooting, but after a few hours it all works as it should.

While I had the tail light harness out, I removed all of the wires for the cruise control. The engine I plan on using will utilize electronic throttle control with integrated cruise control. Before I sprayed the LizardSkin, I removed the cruise control vacuum components from the engine compartment and I also remove the gas pedal and throttle cable.
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Report this Post10-02-2010 08:46 PM Click Here to See the Profile for josef644Send a Private Message to josef644Direct Link to This Post
Save that overflow tank if it's good. One mount busted loose, and it fell into the fan while the AC was on. Made a heck of a racket. $25 +shipping.

[This message has been edited by josef644 (edited 10-02-2010).]

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UND_Sioux
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Report this Post10-02-2010 09:00 PM Click Here to See the Profile for UND_SiouxSend a Private Message to UND_SiouxDirect Link to This Post
Sorry, the parts car is gone. I bought it, stripped what I needed, and then it went to the junkyard. Most of the car was junk. It had been sitting in a field for 10 years getting rained in. Also, it had been hit in the front and had some damage to the front right corner. I had to get it out of the garage so my girlfriends car could go in. Also, where I live, parking the parts car out in the driveway was not an option.
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Report this Post10-02-2010 10:24 PM Click Here to See the Profile for UND_SiouxSend a Private Message to UND_SiouxDirect Link to This Post

UND_Sioux

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The next major part to this project is the drivetrain. This is where I'd like to get opinions from you all. First of all, let me mention that my goal for this car is to be a reliable, fun driver. I want the car to be quick, but I don't feel that I need a drag strip car. Initially, I considered the SBC and also the 3800 SC. I ruled both of those out for various reasons. I then considered the 4.9, but I really wanted something a little more modern. So now I am down to two possibilities; the 3900 with 4T65-E, or the 3.6 VVT DI with the 6 speed auto.

There are pros and cons to both. Believe me, I have no doubt that both of these are going to be pretty tough in the electrical/wiring department. Luckily, I do not have to rush, and I have no deadline to get this project done. When it is done, it is done. I plan on swapping most of the electronics from the donor car including the BCM, Electronic Throttle with integrated cruise control, etc... Here are my pros and cons of both. Please feel free to give me your opinion.

3900/4T65E

Pros:
Mounts will be easier. The block is the same length as 2.8.
ECM can be tuned with HP Tuners
Axles for the 4T65-E have been done with different stock axles so that will save money.
Engine has been out since 2006 and they can easily be purchased with a transmission for around $1000-1200.
Gear ratio is pretty good for a Fiero.

Cons:
240 HP/240 TQ is not as much as the 3.6 VVT DI


3.6 VVT/DI w/ 6 spd Auto

Pros:
288 HP/270 TQ
Probably would get slightly better mileage
Alloy block would save a few pounds
6 spd auto is compact
Trans controller is built in to the transmission

Cons:
All custom mounts due to it being a fairly new swap
Custom Axles will cost $$$
1st gear is 4.3:1. That's great for a 5000 lb Acadia, but not as good for a 2800 lb Fiero.
Not as many out there in yards yet.
The few that are out there are pricey.
ECM has not been cracked yet by HP Tuners, and they say it may be awhile.

[This message has been edited by UND_Sioux (edited 10-02-2010).]

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UND_Sioux
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Report this Post12-20-2010 10:13 AM Click Here to See the Profile for UND_SiouxSend a Private Message to UND_SiouxDirect Link to This Post
Well, after much thought and many delays, I have purchased an engine and transmission. I decided to go with the 3900 60 degree V6. There are just too many unknowns to attempt the 3.6 VVT DI at this point.

The mechanics at the local GM dealership warned me away from the 3.6. They said they have had a number of problems with them. The 3.9 on the other hand, they said is pretty much bulletproof. The 3.9 engines are also more readily available and much cheaper. I found a company up in Michigan who dismantles GM test vehicles. This particular engine/trans came out of a 2006 Chevy Uplander with a grand total of 26 miles on it. The pictures of the van prior to dismantling and the engine/trans are below. I should mention that I was able to get it with the entire wiring harness uncut, the ECM, the Body control module, and the electronic throttle control for $1300 shipped to Texas.

It will be here next week, so work will begin mid-January.













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UND_Sioux
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Report this Post01-17-2011 05:30 PM Click Here to See the Profile for UND_SiouxSend a Private Message to UND_SiouxDirect Link to This Post
Just a quick update. The engine and trans arrived within days of purchasing it and it is awesome. I can't believe what a good deal I got on it. I ordered some of FieroX/Ryan's transmission mounts and will be fabricating a mount that will use the existing bracket on the bottom of the "structural" oil pan. Here is a picture of the 2.8 out of the car, and the 3.9 after I removed the wiring harness.





Another issue that I am thinking about is the alternator clearance issue. Based on the other 3.9 that I have seen pictures of installed and some rough measurements, I think the alternator is going to hit the decklid. A solution that I am considering is using the Buick Lucerne coolant crossover pipe and that has mounts for the alternator on the firewill side down a little lower. On first glance, I think it will fit, but I won't know until I buy the part and try it. If it won't work, I'll just have to notch the decklid and do some fiberglass work. The pictures below are the 3.9 for the Impala (similar to mine) and the 3.9 for the Lucerne.





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UND_Sioux
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Report this Post01-30-2011 09:23 PM Click Here to See the Profile for UND_SiouxSend a Private Message to UND_SiouxDirect Link to This Post
It is mounted. Of course it didn't go as smoothly as I thought it would, but the end result came out good.



Here are some of the issues that I ran into. First of all, my "BrandX" transmission brackets were probably not designed to be used behind a 60 degree V6. The rear bracket was pre-drilled and that put the engine too far to the passengers side. As I understand it, the 3800 block is shorter so that makes sense. I fixed it by drilling a new hole for the bushing bracket closer to the gusset. That moved the engine to the right and probably made it stronger sense it wouldn't be cantilevered out as far. I could not have moved the lower part the mount any more to the drivers side because it would have bottomed out in the cradle opening before it was moved far enough to the left. The forward bracket worked fine as designed.





The next issue was the engine mount. The oil pan on the 3.9 comes out and interferes with the 88 bracket. Additionally, the 3.9 does not have the upper hole on the left. To make matters worse, the hole on the right is not in the same place as it is on the 2.8 and would be blocked by the A/C compressor anyway. On the 3.9 installation on the Uplander, the bottom of the oil pan has a bracket with three vertical holes and one horizontal hole that is mounted to the factory engine mount. The 88 bracket was cut at the top and on the bottom right, and then ground down until there were no clearance issues. Then I mounted the modified bracket to the block to the hole left of the crank pulley, and in two places on the oil pan where the Uplander mount was. I used a factory style replacement motor mount and the engine sits pretty much exactly where the 2.8 was.





The next problem I ran into is that the A/C compressor hit the cradle. I thought this was going to be a major issue. Although I do not have one installed right now, I think I have the solution. The Uplander A/C compressor is HUGE. I'm guessing it is because the Uplander is a larger system with front and rear air. On the pictures of the Impala 3900, the compressor appeared to be higher. I went to the auto parts store and took a look at one. The angle for the mounting arms are different and the diameter of the compressor overall is smaller. Although I won't know for certain until I buy one, I'm pretty sure an Impala or Lucerne compressor should fit without a clearance issue.

Additionally, the oil filter presents a problem. The 3.9 has a built-in oil cooler that is attached to the block and cools with coolant circulating through the block. I'm going to have to either find a short filter that is less than 3" long, or I will buy a remote oil filter kit and relocate the filter to somewhere within reach. The front of the forward cradle crossmember may be a good area since I'm not currently planning to run any exhaust pipes back there.





I bolted the decklid back on to take some rough measurements and as suspected, the alternator is definitely going to hit the decklid. Additionally, the filler neck and the lifting bracket will hit the decklid as well. As I stated in my previous post, I'm hoping the Lucerene setup fits. The alternator sits a good bit lower, but my concern is that it may hit the right decklid hinge mount. I'm going to go find a Lucerne tomorrow and try to take some measurements before I order any parts. Here is a picture of a Lucerne engine installed in the Lucerene.



Lots more work to be done. Stay tuned.
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UND_Sioux
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Report this Post01-31-2011 09:03 PM Click Here to See the Profile for UND_SiouxSend a Private Message to UND_SiouxDirect Link to This Post
Today I was able to finally pick up an entire electrical system from a 2006 Monte Carlo with a 3.9. I already had the engine harness from the Uplander. Now I have everything else including the dash harness, body harness, body control module, etc... I also picked up the all of the computer controlled evap stuff. What a mess.....



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Report this Post01-31-2011 09:22 PM Click Here to See the Profile for elitoprClick Here to visit elitopr's HomePageSend a Private Message to elitoprDirect Link to This Post
nice job!!!!!!!!!!! keep on that way,,, congrats!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Report this Post02-09-2011 10:26 AM Click Here to See the Profile for MaddMattSend a Private Message to MaddMattDirect Link to This Post
I was wondering how the swap was going. If you want any ideas on how to get some things done (ie: coolant filler neck) let me know.
Matt
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UND_Sioux
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Report this Post02-09-2011 01:17 PM Click Here to See the Profile for UND_SiouxSend a Private Message to UND_SiouxDirect Link to This Post
I'll take free ideas/advice anytime.
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UND_Sioux
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Report this Post02-16-2011 10:42 PM Click Here to See the Profile for UND_SiouxSend a Private Message to UND_SiouxDirect Link to This Post
This week I worked on the axles. Nothing is ever as easy as I think it is going to be. First of all, I went to Darth Fiero's website for information on the axle combination that I needed. That information can be found here: http://www.gmtuners.com/swap/axles.htm

My first plan was to buy three remanufactured axles from the local parts store. According to the information I had, I needed a Beretta driver's side axle, a manual Fiero passenger side axle or a Beretta passenger side axle, and a Driver's side axle from a W-body GM car. The plan was to use the center W-body shaft in between the two joints on the passenger side axle, and to use the tripod housing from the W-body car which came with a 4T65-E to replace the 4T60-E tripod on the driver's side Beretta axle.

Problem 1.

The W-body car axle came off of a 2000 Grand Prix with a 3800 non-SC engine with a 4T65-E. The center shaft was too big.

Problem 2.

The tripod did not fit the bearings from the Beretta axle.

Now I was back to square 1. I decided to take it all back to the store and go to the junkyard. I was able to buy both a driver and passenger side axle from a 1998 Grand Am. This time, I bought a W-body axle from a car with a 3.1L; a 1998 Chevy Lumina. The Lumina center shaft did fit in the passenger side axle to make it longer. At this point the passenger side axle was done. For the driver's side, I found a tripod housing off a 2006 Uplander with a 4T65-E. Unfortunately, the bearing size on the tripod for the Uplander is an very large odd size.

Back to the parts yard again. I went to a pick-a-part and found a 4T65-E off a early 00's Impala that had a tripod that was the correct size for the bearings on the Grand Am. It all fits and looks correct.

Here is my one concern. On both sides, the tripod bearings are only half-way into the tripod housing when the axle shaft is parallel to the ground. I'm not 100% convinced that the bearings won't get too close to the end of the tripod housing when the axle is in the full up or full down position while the wheel articulates. There is a place locally that will rebuild the axles with new boots, grease, etc... But while I have the boots off, I'm going to wait until I have the cradle installed back into the car, and then I'm going to force the knuckle to travel all the way up and all the way down while watching the bearings plunge in and out. If it gets too close for comfort, I'll go back to the drawing board. Here are some pictures with the axles installed minus the boots:








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claude dalpe
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Report this Post04-16-2011 08:50 PM Click Here to See the Profile for claude dalpeSend a Private Message to claude dalpeDirect Link to This Post
Any news about your build thread
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Report this Post04-16-2011 09:02 PM Click Here to See the Profile for UND_SiouxSend a Private Message to UND_SiouxDirect Link to This Post
Two things have put the project on a short hold. We decided to remodel the master bath, and that has taken up a ton of time. Also, I've taken a new position at work and I have 7 weeks of training out of town. By mid-May I'll get back on track.
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