This is what i get for going to a ricer type website i already feel my brain starting to melt
He is basicley saying that (for example) since the 3800SC is not certied to be in a fiero by the EPA that it is an illegal swap and you can get in trouble for it.
I find it really hard to beleave that this is true considering that the 3800 is a much more efficient motor than the 2.8.
This is what i get for going to a ricer type website i already feel my brain starting to melt
He is basicley saying that (for example) since the 3800SC is not certied to be in a fiero by the EPA that it is an illegal swap and you can get in trouble for it.
I find it really hard to beleave that this is true considering that the 3800 is a much more efficient motor than the 2.8.
Discuss.
If its bolted to the OEM transmission (That came WITH the engine), it'll pass even california's regulations.
Originally posted by Custom2M4: If its bolted to the OEM transmission (That came WITH the engine), it'll pass even california's regulations.
Actually, WCF has gotten a 3800SC + manual combo certified by CARB, I believe. And CA has a special exception from certain EPA regulartions, as they have the CARB. So saying something is certified by CARB, doesn't mean it's certified by EPA in the other 49 states. They are two separate things.
It's also not exactly true to state that an engine swap is illegal because it's not EPA certified to be in a specific car. That's essentially the same as saying that it's illegal to install an aftermarket muffler, because the EPA hasn't certified it to be installed in every possible car on the road. Or that all road legal kit cars are illegal. But, it's just not true.
The transmission it is bolted to, and the car it is installed in, are mostly irrelevant (excepting that the CARB can be overly weird). What matters is the emissions equipment and output. They must meet or exceed the quality of those in the car which the engine was originally installed in.
If its bolted to the OEM transmission (That came WITH the engine), it'll pass even california's regulations.
Thats what i keep trying to tell this idiot but he is still under the impression that if the engine is not certified to the car its in its illegal. What about hondas toyota's and all that BS. If it passes emmissions it dosent matter what engine you have in the car.
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09:42 PM
BlackGT Codde Member
Posts: 1107 From: Gallup, New Mexico Registered: Mar 2008
1985 and older dont require emissions in my state. and 99.99% of the dumb people running epa services dont know what the stock engine looks like. and wth were you doing on a ricerburner forum? trying to blow up an imsa?
------------------ 1985 gt notchie auto (pic)| 3800 SFI N/A coming soon 1986 se notchie standard 4spd | 5.3 vortec soon
1985 and older dont require emissions in my state. and 99.99% of the dumb people running epa services dont know what the stock engine looks like. and wth were you doing on a ricerburner forum? trying to blow up an imsa?
I dunno. Driving an american car makes me feel like the warden of a nuthouse on it.
Originally posted by BlackGT Codde: 1985 and older dont require emissions in my state. and 99.99% of the dumb people running epa services dont know what the stock engine looks like. and wth were you doing on a ricerburner forum? trying to blow up an imsa?
Whether or not your state requires an emissions inspection is irrelevant to what the federal law is. Federal emissions requirements vary by region. More populous areas have stricter requirements. In VA for example, there is a state safety inspection required to be renewed every year, and in some areas close to DC in Northern VA, an emissions inspection is also required. Regardless of whether your state requires an inspection, Federal law does require that vehicles and engines of certain model years meet certain emissions requirements. Because they aren't checking you now, doesn't mean it's not the law.
Whether or not your state requires an emissions inspection is irrelevant to what the federal law is. Federal emissions requirements vary by region. More populous areas have stricter requirements. In VA for example, there is a state safety inspection required to be renewed every year, and in some areas close to DC in Northern VA, an emissions inspection is also required. Regardless of whether your state requires an inspection, Federal law does require that vehicles and engines of certain model years meet certain emissions requirements. Because they aren't checking you now, doesn't mean it's not the law.
Yes but it was my understanding that as long as your vehical has all the proper emmission components (EGR CAT OBD o2 etc) it dosent matter what engine you put in it. Its only when your putting a carbed engine into say an OBD2 car that you need to take the proper titling steps to get it state approved. not EPA approved.
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10:06 PM
BlackGT Codde Member
Posts: 1107 From: Gallup, New Mexico Registered: Mar 2008
Whether or not your state requires an emissions inspection is irrelevant to what the federal law is. Federal emissions requirements vary by region. More populous areas have stricter requirements. In VA for example, there is a state safety inspection required to be renewed every year, and in some areas close to DC in Northern VA, an emissions inspection is also required. Regardless of whether your state requires an inspection, Federal law does require that vehicles and engines of certain model years meet certain emissions requirements. Because they aren't checking you now, doesn't mean it's not the law.
ah. i see. well i guess i will be s.o.l when they get here. i have no idea what the federal is for my region?
[This message has been edited by BlackGT Codde (edited 11-03-2010).]
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10:10 PM
BlackGT Codde Member
Posts: 1107 From: Gallup, New Mexico Registered: Mar 2008
In Wisconsin if you ask a married person (who you are not married to) to have sex with you, it's illegal. You don't even have to have sex with the person, and it's still illegal.
It's NOT illegal however if you are both single.
[This message has been edited by phonedawgz (edited 11-03-2010).]
Federal law sates that any engine can be swapped in a vehicle as long as the motor is of same age or newer and has all emissions components in good working order. Look up sema san. They have a great list of laws that are introduced to help with hot rodding.
Federal law sates that any engine can be swapped in a vehicle as long as the motor is of same age or newer and has all emissions components in good working order. Look up sema san. They have a great list of laws that are introduced to help with hot rodding.
So swapping an 85 Fiero 2.8 into an 88 Fiero is illegal?
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01:27 AM
Genopsyde Member
Posts: 774 From: Willoughby, Ohio USA Registered: Dec 2007
If you invent anything just keep it to yourself as i am tired of new laws being passed every day. As for nations that fights for freedom the governments sure do a good job at telling you what can't do. Henry Ford never had a licence.
Originally posted by pontiackid86: Yes but it was my understanding that as long as your vehical has all the proper emmission components (EGR CAT OBD o2 etc) it dosent matter what engine you put in it. Its only when your putting a carbed engine into say an OBD2 car that you need to take the proper titling steps to get it state approved. not EPA approved.
It has nothing to do with OBD2. What matters, is installed equpiment; both for the model year of the car being installed to, and the for the donor vehicle. And it matters whether you are registering the car for street use, or not.
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07:33 AM
jscott1 Member
Posts: 21676 From: Houston, TX , USA Registered: Dec 2001
I don't know the Federal EPA regulations and frankly I couldn't care less. As long as my state is willing to issue the emissions sticker I'm good.
State regulations vary by state, duh... so no blanket statement can apply to state emissions, but in Texas they don't care about the engine, as long as it passes their requirements. How they come up with those requirements is a bit of a mystery to me, but as long as I pass I don't care.
From what I've been told in the past by state inspectors is that you would have to retitle the car as a reconstructed car and would have to pass the emmisions of the year it was completed. But no one does it or ever checks it. I have a 32 Ford street rod with a custom frame, suspension and drivetrain that is registored as a 1932 but should actually be registored and titled as reconstructed car.
Originally posted by jscott1: I don't know the Federal EPA regulations and frankly I couldn't care less. As long as my state is willing to issue the emissions sticker I'm good.
State regulations vary by state, duh... so no blanket statement can apply to state emissions, but in Texas they don't care about the engine, as long as it passes their requirements. How they come up with those requirements is a bit of a mystery to me, but as long as I pass I don't care.
You should care. Or at least, you should try to be informed, whether you care or not. As a member of the United States, state laws in any state or commonwealth of the union, can only extend those laws set forth by the Federal government. It cannot revoke them. Likewise, any local statues in a locality of any state can only extend upon those laws set forth by its state, and the Federal government. The Clean Air Act specifies certain requirements for certain model years of equipment, and certain regions. Because of this, the requirements in Minnesota are currently more lenient than those of say New York or Washington DC. And as states are also sometimes quite large themselves, they may overlap regions defined by the EPA, and therefore may have different requirements in different parts of the state. Federal law covers every state in the union. Simply because a large number of people violate the law, does not mean it isn't a law.
I'm sure you've exceeded the speed limit.
I don't know why the EPA/CAA bothers with having different requirements for different regions though. It's rather ignorant to do so. It really should just pick the pragmatically strictest set of requirements, and require everyone to comply.
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10:37 AM
PFF
System Bot
jscott1 Member
Posts: 21676 From: Houston, TX , USA Registered: Dec 2001
You should care. Or at least, you should try to be informed, whether you care or not. As a member of the United States, state laws in any state or commonwealth of the union, can only extend those laws set forth by the Federal government. It cannot revoke them. Likewise, any local statues in a locality of any state can only extend upon those laws set forth by its state, and the Federal government. The Clean Air Act specifies certain requirements for certain model years of equipment, and certain regions. Because of this, the requirements in Minnesota are currently more lenient than those of say New York or Washington DC. And as states are also sometimes quite large themselves, they may overlap regions defined by the EPA, and therefore may have different requirements in different parts of the state. Federal law covers every state in the union. Simply because a large number of people violate the law, does not mean it isn't a law.
I'm sure you've exceeded the speed limit.
I don't know why the EPA/CAA bothers with having different requirements for different regions though. It's rather ignorant to do so. It really should just pick the pragmatically strictest set of requirements, and require everyone to comply.
Thanks for the civics lesson, but until such time as there is a federal emissions test that I have to pass, my opinion is unchanged. I don't care. As long as I pass my state inspections that's good enough for me.
Besides by your own admission state standards can't be more lenient than Federal law, so by definition if I pass my state emissions, I should pass federal right?
It's those folks in the states that don't even bother to test emissions at all that we should be worried about. They could be driving around fogging the streets with NOX and breaking all kinds of federal laws.
[This message has been edited by jscott1 (edited 11-04-2010).]
Originally posted by jscott1: Thanks for the civics lesson, but until such time as there is a federal emissions test that I have to pass, my opinion is unchanged. I don't care. As long as I pass my state inspections that's good enough for me.
Besides by your own admission state standards can't be more lenient than Federal law, so by definition if I pass my state emissions, I should pass federal right?
It's those folks in the states that don't even bother to test emissions at all that we should be worried about. They could be driving around fogging the streets with NOX and breaking all kinds of federal laws.
Actually, it is a federal emissions test, administered by the state. It works much in the same way that interstate highways are federally funded, and maintained by the states. The EPA and Clean Air Act specifies the requirements, and regions, based on external data, such as the census. The states, where necessary as per the requirements set forth therein, receive federal funding and set up and administer emissions inspections requirements. Some states have it everywhere. Some states nowhere. And some states only in certain areas. Like Texas. Only certain counties are required to administer the inspection there, and they are the more populous areas. The vast majority of counties in Texas, are not required to have emissions inspection.
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07:44 PM
Rick 88 Member
Posts: 3914 From: El Paso, TX. Registered: Aug 2001
Actually, it is a federal emissions test, administered by the state. It works much in the same way that interstate highways are federally funded, and maintained by the states. The EPA and Clean Air Act specifies the requirements, and regions, based on external data, such as the census. The states, where necessary as per the requirements set forth therein, receive federal funding and set up and administer emissions inspections requirements. Some states have it everywhere. Some states nowhere. And some states only in certain areas. Like Texas. Only certain counties are required to administer the inspection there, and they are the more populous areas. The vast majority of counties in Texas, are not required to have emissions inspection.
Here in El Paso we do have annual emission tests for vehicles newer than 25 years of age. My 3.4 swap was tested as a 2.8 and passed with no problem. A couple more years and my 88 will be emissions exempt.
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08:21 PM
TXGOOD Member
Posts: 5410 From: Austin, Texas Registered: Feb 2006
Rules regulating engine swapping are not make/model specific. The simple rule is that a vehicle must have all emissions components that were present when it was manufactured, which may include:
PCV - positive crankcase ventilation ACL - air cleaner (thermostatic air cleaner) AIS - secondary air injection EGR - exhaust gas recirculation EVAP - evaporative emission CAT - catalytic convertor SPK - spark control FR - fillpipe restrictor O2S - oxygen sensor
Considering the Fiero only had a few emissions devices, makes it pretty easy.
[This message has been edited by TXGOOD (edited 11-04-2010).]
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08:32 PM
Marvin McInnis Member
Posts: 11599 From: ~ Kansas City, USA Registered: Apr 2002
It doesn't make a bit of difference what any of us thinks or believes. All that matters are the actual state laws that apply, and you can look those up.
It doesn't make a bit of difference what any of us thinks or believes. All that matters are the actual state laws that apply, and you can look those up.
Lol i already know them. I have done everything to get my PA inspection licnece except take the emmission's test to get it. Some idiot on that other forum is trying to tell me on it.
This is what i get for going to a ricer type website i already feel my brain starting to melt
He is basicley saying that (for example) since the 3800SC is not certied to be in a fiero by the EPA that it is an illegal swap and you can get in trouble for it.
I find it really hard to beleave that this is true considering that the 3800 is a much more efficient motor than the 2.8.
Discuss.
In Washington state if the vehicle is older than 25 years it doesn't even have to pass emissions, or so the Dept of Licensing told me the other day.. So that makes my 85 exempt from passing emissions. Therefore I could legally put any engine I want in it and it doesn't matter as far as the EPA is concerned so long as it passes minimum WSP/DOT safety regs.
My 88, on the other hand, still has to pass emission standards for its model year. Now as I understand it, it wouldn't matter what engine was in there so long as it passes emissions. However there will be a VIN check that will say what the engine should be and the test is calibrated accordingly.
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10:46 PM
Nov 5th, 2010
crazyinkc Member
Posts: 198 From: At Your Mama's House Registered: Apr 2006
Actually, it is a federal emissions test, administered by the state. It works much in the same way that interstate highways are federally funded, and maintained by the states. The EPA and Clean Air Act specifies the requirements, and regions, based on external data, such as the census. The states, where necessary as per the requirements set forth therein, receive federal funding and set up and administer emissions inspections requirements. Some states have it everywhere. Some states nowhere. And some states only in certain areas. Like Texas. Only certain counties are required to administer the inspection there, and they are the more populous areas. The vast majority of counties in Texas, are not required to have emissions inspection.
Well I happen to live in an emission county in Texas, (only a handful of counties, but probably 90% of the population). Which means I'm passing all my State and Federal requirements.... (except on my GT I gave up after 3 failures and got a waiver).
So we are saying the same thing... I think you just like to argue or something.
[This message has been edited by jscott1 (edited 11-05-2010).]
Originally posted by jscott1: Well I happen to live in an emission county in Texas, (only a handful of counties, but probably 90% of the population). Which means I'm passing all my State and Federal requirements.... (except on my GT I gave up after 3 failures and got a waiver).
So we are saying the same thing... I think you just like to argue or something.
Nah. You just seemed to think that the EPA and Federal bits had nothing to do with it. CA is really the only state where the term "state emissions inspection" is entirely accurate, since they have a special exception for parts of the Clean Air Act due to the existence of CARB, and whatever else is involved in that exception. Granted, given the strictness I see everyone from CA complaining about, I think it's safe to say that CARB requirements exceeed those of the CAA. I wasn't trying to argue with you, just clarify what it all means for yourself and whoever else might read this thread. And it looks like we seem to agree on that clarity now.
They are set by model year of vehicle, engine, and region.
Yea I know, I can play dumb right I could probably install most of the same type of equipment but there was no 1986 Fiero with a carburetor V8, but there was a 1972 Corvette
i live in indiana county pa..there is no emmisions test here,just your typical brakes and lites,,,cambria, my neighbor county does have emmisions, they check your gas cap,,i swear thats all there is for the emmisions test here...no catz no problem...hillbilly inspection.....
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05:26 PM
jscott1 Member
Posts: 21676 From: Houston, TX , USA Registered: Dec 2001
Nah. You just seemed to think that the EPA and Federal bits had nothing to do with it. CA is really the only state where the term "state emissions inspection" is entirely accurate, since they have a special exception for parts of the Clean Air Act due to the existence of CARB, and whatever else is involved in that exception. Granted, given the strictness I see everyone from CA complaining about, I think it's safe to say that CARB requirements exceeed those of the CAA. I wasn't trying to argue with you, just clarify what it all means for yourself and whoever else might read this thread. And it looks like we seem to agree on that clarity now.
Yeah I was never really disagreeing with you, my point was I'm not losing sleep over Federal standards, because I already lose plenty of sleep dealing with State requirements, (which in the case of Texas are the same.) Like I said I went through the whole process of getting an emissions waiver, which was almost ridiculous, because I had to take the car to a special station to be tested to prove that it would fail so I could get my sticker. If by chance it passed I would also get my sticker, so the test was a waste of time.
By the way, the situation in the US is not so straightforward anymore as 16 states have requested and been granted permission to use CARB standards, so it's not just a California thing anymore. It's just a matter of time before CARB is everywhere. That will be an odd situation of one state setting a nationwide law.
Originally posted by jscott1: By the way, the situation in the US is not so straightforward anymore as 16 states have requested and been granted permission to use CARB standards, so it's not just a California thing anymore. It's just a matter of time before CARB is everywhere. That will be an odd situation of one state setting a nationwide law.
Well, CAFE is basically the new CARB. And it's not that odd. There's a large precedent for a single state basically doing a trial for new law, and then having Federal law later come out of it, if one or more states enact with success. This wouldn't be the first time. If all 50 states were to actually follow and set up their own ARBs with the same standards as CARB, then they would just be subsumed into a new revision of the Clean Air Act, and all the state level boards dissolved into Federal mandates run by the states. And they would probably have split funding between EPA and Federal DOT.
