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So someone on another forum tells me all engine swaps are not EPA legal by pontiackid86
Started on: 11-03-2010 09:21 PM
Replies: 53
Last post by: lonewolf_305 on 11-06-2010 06:26 PM
pontiackid86
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Report this Post11-03-2010 09:21 PM Click Here to See the Profile for pontiackid86Click Here to Email pontiackid86Send a Private Message to pontiackid86Direct Link to This Post
This is what i get for going to a ricer type website i already feel my brain starting to melt

He is basicley saying that (for example) since the 3800SC is not certied to be in a fiero by the EPA that it is an illegal swap and you can get in trouble for it.


I find it really hard to beleave that this is true considering that the 3800 is a much more efficient motor than the 2.8.


Discuss.
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Report this Post11-03-2010 09:28 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Custom2M4Click Here to Email Custom2M4Send a Private Message to Custom2M4Direct Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by pontiackid86:

This is what i get for going to a ricer type website i already feel my brain starting to melt

He is basicley saying that (for example) since the 3800SC is not certied to be in a fiero by the EPA that it is an illegal swap and you can get in trouble for it.


I find it really hard to beleave that this is true considering that the 3800 is a much more efficient motor than the 2.8.


Discuss.


If its bolted to the OEM transmission (That came WITH the engine), it'll pass even california's regulations.
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Report this Post11-03-2010 09:41 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Custom2M4:
If its bolted to the OEM transmission (That came WITH the engine), it'll pass even california's regulations.


Actually, WCF has gotten a 3800SC + manual combo certified by CARB, I believe. And CA has a special exception from certain EPA regulartions, as they have the CARB. So saying something is certified by CARB, doesn't mean it's certified by EPA in the other 49 states. They are two separate things.

It's also not exactly true to state that an engine swap is illegal because it's not EPA certified to be in a specific car. That's essentially the same as saying that it's illegal to install an aftermarket muffler, because the EPA hasn't certified it to be installed in every possible car on the road. Or that all road legal kit cars are illegal. But, it's just not true.

The transmission it is bolted to, and the car it is installed in, are mostly irrelevant (excepting that the CARB can be overly weird). What matters is the emissions equipment and output. They must meet or exceed the quality of those in the car which the engine was originally installed in.
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pontiackid86
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Report this Post11-03-2010 09:42 PM Click Here to See the Profile for pontiackid86Click Here to Email pontiackid86Send a Private Message to pontiackid86Direct Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Custom2M4:


If its bolted to the OEM transmission (That came WITH the engine), it'll pass even california's regulations.


Thats what i keep trying to tell this idiot but he is still under the impression that if the engine is not certified to the car its in its illegal. What about hondas toyota's and all that BS. If it passes emmissions it dosent matter what engine you have in the car.

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Report this Post11-03-2010 09:42 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BlackGT CoddeClick Here to Email BlackGT CoddeSend a Private Message to BlackGT CoddeDirect Link to This Post
1985 and older dont require emissions in my state. and 99.99% of the dumb people running epa services dont know what the stock engine looks like.
and wth were you doing on a ricerburner forum? trying to blow up an imsa?

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pontiackid86
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Report this Post11-03-2010 09:45 PM Click Here to See the Profile for pontiackid86Click Here to Email pontiackid86Send a Private Message to pontiackid86Direct Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by BlackGT Codde:

1985 and older dont require emissions in my state. and 99.99% of the dumb people running epa services dont know what the stock engine looks like.
and wth were you doing on a ricerburner forum? trying to blow up an imsa?




I dunno. Driving an american car makes me feel like the warden of a nuthouse on it.
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Report this Post11-03-2010 09:58 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by BlackGT Codde:
1985 and older dont require emissions in my state. and 99.99% of the dumb people running epa services dont know what the stock engine looks like.
and wth were you doing on a ricerburner forum? trying to blow up an imsa?


Whether or not your state requires an emissions inspection is irrelevant to what the federal law is. Federal emissions requirements vary by region. More populous areas have stricter requirements. In VA for example, there is a state safety inspection required to be renewed every year, and in some areas close to DC in Northern VA, an emissions inspection is also required. Regardless of whether your state requires an inspection, Federal law does require that vehicles and engines of certain model years meet certain emissions requirements. Because they aren't checking you now, doesn't mean it's not the law.
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pontiackid86
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Report this Post11-03-2010 10:06 PM Click Here to See the Profile for pontiackid86Click Here to Email pontiackid86Send a Private Message to pontiackid86Direct Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by dobey:


Whether or not your state requires an emissions inspection is irrelevant to what the federal law is. Federal emissions requirements vary by region. More populous areas have stricter requirements. In VA for example, there is a state safety inspection required to be renewed every year, and in some areas close to DC in Northern VA, an emissions inspection is also required. Regardless of whether your state requires an inspection, Federal law does require that vehicles and engines of certain model years meet certain emissions requirements. Because they aren't checking you now, doesn't mean it's not the law.



Yes but it was my understanding that as long as your vehical has all the proper emmission components (EGR CAT OBD o2 etc) it dosent matter what engine you put in it. Its only when your putting a carbed engine into say an OBD2 car that you need to take the proper titling steps to get it state approved. not EPA approved.
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Report this Post11-03-2010 10:10 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BlackGT CoddeClick Here to Email BlackGT CoddeSend a Private Message to BlackGT CoddeDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by dobey:


Whether or not your state requires an emissions inspection is irrelevant to what the federal law is. Federal emissions requirements vary by region. More populous areas have stricter requirements. In VA for example, there is a state safety inspection required to be renewed every year, and in some areas close to DC in Northern VA, an emissions inspection is also required. Regardless of whether your state requires an inspection, Federal law does require that vehicles and engines of certain model years meet certain emissions requirements. Because they aren't checking you now, doesn't mean it's not the law.


ah. i see. well i guess i will be s.o.l when they get here. i have no idea what the federal is for my region?

[This message has been edited by BlackGT Codde (edited 11-03-2010).]

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Report this Post11-03-2010 10:12 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BlackGT CoddeClick Here to Email BlackGT CoddeSend a Private Message to BlackGT CoddeDirect Link to This Post

BlackGT Codde

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quote
Originally posted by pontiackid86:
I dunno. Driving an american car makes me feel like the warden of a nuthouse on it.


LOL

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Report this Post11-03-2010 10:28 PM Click Here to See the Profile for phonedawgzClick Here to visit phonedawgz's HomePageClick Here to Email phonedawgzSend a Private Message to phonedawgzDirect Link to This Post
It's also illegal to drive faster than the speed limit.
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Report this Post11-03-2010 10:31 PM Click Here to See the Profile for phonedawgzClick Here to visit phonedawgz's HomePageClick Here to Email phonedawgzSend a Private Message to phonedawgzDirect Link to This Post

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In Wisconsin if you ask a married person (who you are not married to) to have sex with you, it's illegal. You don't even have to have sex with the person, and it's still illegal.

It's NOT illegal however if you are both single.

[This message has been edited by phonedawgz (edited 11-03-2010).]

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Report this Post11-04-2010 12:19 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Tstang429Click Here to Email Tstang429Send a Private Message to Tstang429Direct Link to This Post
Federal law sates that any engine can be swapped in a vehicle as long as the motor is of same age or newer and has all emissions components in good working order. Look up sema san. They have a great list of laws that are introduced to help with hot rodding.
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Report this Post11-04-2010 01:27 AM Click Here to See the Profile for JimmySClick Here to visit JimmyS's HomePageClick Here to Email JimmySSend a Private Message to JimmySDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Tstang429:

Federal law sates that any engine can be swapped in a vehicle as long as the motor is of same age or newer and has all emissions components in good working order. Look up sema san. They have a great list of laws that are introduced to help with hot rodding.


So swapping an 85 Fiero 2.8 into an 88 Fiero is illegal?
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Report this Post11-04-2010 01:41 AM Click Here to See the Profile for GenopsydeClick Here to visit Genopsyde's HomePageSend a Private Message to GenopsydeDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by JimmyS:


So swapping an 85 Fiero 2.8 into an 88 Fiero is illegal?


correct.

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Report this Post11-04-2010 02:24 AM Click Here to See the Profile for AustralianClick Here to visit Australian's HomePageClick Here to Email AustralianSend a Private Message to AustralianDirect Link to This Post
If you invent anything just keep it to yourself as i am tired of new laws being passed every day. As for nations that fights for freedom the governments sure do a good job at telling you what can't do. Henry Ford never had a licence.
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Report this Post11-04-2010 07:33 AM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by pontiackid86:
Yes but it was my understanding that as long as your vehical has all the proper emmission components (EGR CAT OBD o2 etc) it dosent matter what engine you put in it. Its only when your putting a carbed engine into say an OBD2 car that you need to take the proper titling steps to get it state approved. not EPA approved.


It has nothing to do with OBD2. What matters, is installed equpiment; both for the model year of the car being installed to, and the for the donor vehicle. And it matters whether you are registering the car for street use, or not.
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Report this Post11-04-2010 08:16 AM Click Here to See the Profile for jscott1Send a Private Message to jscott1Direct Link to This Post
I don't know the Federal EPA regulations and frankly I couldn't care less. As long as my state is willing to issue the emissions sticker I'm good.

State regulations vary by state, duh... so no blanket statement can apply to state emissions, but in Texas they don't care about the engine, as long as it passes their requirements. How they come up with those requirements is a bit of a mystery to me, but as long as I pass I don't care.
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Report this Post11-04-2010 09:09 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Fiero38SCClick Here to Email Fiero38SCSend a Private Message to Fiero38SCDirect Link to This Post
All those people out there with Street Rods sure do have a problem then..

Sounds like someone "thinks" they know something.
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Report this Post11-04-2010 09:50 AM Click Here to See the Profile for GODFATHERClick Here to Email GODFATHERSend a Private Message to GODFATHERDirect Link to This Post
From what I've been told in the past by state inspectors is that you would have to retitle the car as a reconstructed car and would have to pass the emmisions of the year it was completed. But no one does it or ever checks it. I have a 32 Ford street rod with a custom frame, suspension and drivetrain that is registored as a 1932 but should actually be registored and titled as reconstructed car.
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Report this Post11-04-2010 10:37 AM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by jscott1:
I don't know the Federal EPA regulations and frankly I couldn't care less. As long as my state is willing to issue the emissions sticker I'm good.

State regulations vary by state, duh... so no blanket statement can apply to state emissions, but in Texas they don't care about the engine, as long as it passes their requirements. How they come up with those requirements is a bit of a mystery to me, but as long as I pass I don't care.


You should care. Or at least, you should try to be informed, whether you care or not. As a member of the United States, state laws in any state or commonwealth of the union, can only extend those laws set forth by the Federal government. It cannot revoke them. Likewise, any local statues in a locality of any state can only extend upon those laws set forth by its state, and the Federal government. The Clean Air Act specifies certain requirements for certain model years of equipment, and certain regions. Because of this, the requirements in Minnesota are currently more lenient than those of say New York or Washington DC. And as states are also sometimes quite large themselves, they may overlap regions defined by the EPA, and therefore may have different requirements in different parts of the state. Federal law covers every state in the union. Simply because a large number of people violate the law, does not mean it isn't a law.

I'm sure you've exceeded the speed limit.

I don't know why the EPA/CAA bothers with having different requirements for different regions though. It's rather ignorant to do so. It really should just pick the pragmatically strictest set of requirements, and require everyone to comply.
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Report this Post11-04-2010 06:25 PM Click Here to See the Profile for jscott1Send a Private Message to jscott1Direct Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by dobey:


You should care. Or at least, you should try to be informed, whether you care or not. As a member of the United States, state laws in any state or commonwealth of the union, can only extend those laws set forth by the Federal government. It cannot revoke them. Likewise, any local statues in a locality of any state can only extend upon those laws set forth by its state, and the Federal government. The Clean Air Act specifies certain requirements for certain model years of equipment, and certain regions. Because of this, the requirements in Minnesota are currently more lenient than those of say New York or Washington DC. And as states are also sometimes quite large themselves, they may overlap regions defined by the EPA, and therefore may have different requirements in different parts of the state. Federal law covers every state in the union. Simply because a large number of people violate the law, does not mean it isn't a law.

I'm sure you've exceeded the speed limit.

I don't know why the EPA/CAA bothers with having different requirements for different regions though. It's rather ignorant to do so. It really should just pick the pragmatically strictest set of requirements, and require everyone to comply.


Thanks for the civics lesson, but until such time as there is a federal emissions test that I have to pass, my opinion is unchanged. I don't care. As long as I pass my state inspections that's good enough for me.

Besides by your own admission state standards can't be more lenient than Federal law, so by definition if I pass my state emissions, I should pass federal right?

It's those folks in the states that don't even bother to test emissions at all that we should be worried about. They could be driving around fogging the streets with NOX and breaking all kinds of federal laws.

[This message has been edited by jscott1 (edited 11-04-2010).]

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Report this Post11-04-2010 07:44 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by jscott1:
Thanks for the civics lesson, but until such time as there is a federal emissions test that I have to pass, my opinion is unchanged. I don't care. As long as I pass my state inspections that's good enough for me.

Besides by your own admission state standards can't be more lenient than Federal law, so by definition if I pass my state emissions, I should pass federal right?

It's those folks in the states that don't even bother to test emissions at all that we should be worried about. They could be driving around fogging the streets with NOX and breaking all kinds of federal laws.


Actually, it is a federal emissions test, administered by the state. It works much in the same way that interstate highways are federally funded, and maintained by the states. The EPA and Clean Air Act specifies the requirements, and regions, based on external data, such as the census. The states, where necessary as per the requirements set forth therein, receive federal funding and set up and administer emissions inspections requirements. Some states have it everywhere. Some states nowhere. And some states only in certain areas. Like Texas. Only certain counties are required to administer the inspection there, and they are the more populous areas. The vast majority of counties in Texas, are not required to have emissions inspection.
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Report this Post11-04-2010 08:21 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Rick 88Send a Private Message to Rick 88Direct Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by dobey:


Actually, it is a federal emissions test, administered by the state. It works much in the same way that interstate highways are federally funded, and maintained by the states. The EPA and Clean Air Act specifies the requirements, and regions, based on external data, such as the census. The states, where necessary as per the requirements set forth therein, receive federal funding and set up and administer emissions inspections requirements. Some states have it everywhere. Some states nowhere. And some states only in certain areas. Like Texas. Only certain counties are required to administer the inspection there, and they are the more populous areas. The vast majority of counties in Texas, are not required to have emissions inspection.


Here in El Paso we do have annual emission tests for vehicles newer than 25 years of age. My 3.4 swap was tested as a 2.8 and passed with no problem. A couple more years and my 88 will be emissions exempt.
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Report this Post11-04-2010 08:32 PM Click Here to See the Profile for TXGOODClick Here to visit TXGOOD's HomePageSend a Private Message to TXGOODDirect Link to This Post
This is from the Texas Deparment of Public Safety

Engine Swaps

Rules regulating engine swapping are not make/model specific. The simple rule is that a vehicle must have all emissions components that were present when it was manufactured, which may include:

PCV - positive crankcase ventilation
ACL - air cleaner (thermostatic air cleaner)
AIS - secondary air injection
EGR - exhaust gas recirculation
EVAP - evaporative emission
CAT - catalytic convertor
SPK - spark control
FR - fillpipe restrictor
O2S - oxygen sensor

Considering the Fiero only had a few emissions devices, makes it pretty easy.

[This message has been edited by TXGOOD (edited 11-04-2010).]

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Report this Post11-04-2010 09:14 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Marvin McInnisClick Here to visit Marvin McInnis's HomePageSend a Private Message to Marvin McInnisDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by pontiackid86:

Discuss.



It doesn't make a bit of difference what any of us thinks or believes. All that matters are the actual state laws that apply, and you can look those up.
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Report this Post11-04-2010 09:45 PM Click Here to See the Profile for pontiackid86Click Here to Email pontiackid86Send a Private Message to pontiackid86Direct Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Marvin McInnis:


It doesn't make a bit of difference what any of us thinks or believes. All that matters are the actual state laws that apply, and you can look those up.

Lol i already know them. I have done everything to get my PA inspection licnece except take the emmission's test to get it. Some idiot on that other forum is trying to tell me on it.

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Report this Post11-04-2010 10:46 PM Click Here to See the Profile for schw32mSend a Private Message to schw32mDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by pontiackid86:

This is what i get for going to a ricer type website i already feel my brain starting to melt

He is basicley saying that (for example) since the 3800SC is not certied to be in a fiero by the EPA that it is an illegal swap and you can get in trouble for it.


I find it really hard to beleave that this is true considering that the 3800 is a much more efficient motor than the 2.8.


Discuss.


In Washington state if the vehicle is older than 25 years it doesn't even have to pass emissions, or so the Dept of Licensing told me the other day.. So that makes my 85 exempt from passing emissions. Therefore I could legally put any engine I want in it and it doesn't matter as far as the EPA is concerned so long as it passes minimum WSP/DOT safety regs.

My 88, on the other hand, still has to pass emission standards for its model year. Now as I understand it, it wouldn't matter what engine was in there so long as it passes emissions. However there will be a VIN check that will say what the engine should be and the test is calibrated accordingly.


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Report this Post11-05-2010 03:50 PM Click Here to See the Profile for crazyinkcSend a Private Message to crazyinkcDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by phonedawgz:

It's also illegal to drive faster than the speed limit.


lolz.

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Report this Post11-05-2010 04:02 PM Click Here to See the Profile for jscott1Send a Private Message to jscott1Direct Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by dobey:


Actually, it is a federal emissions test, administered by the state. It works much in the same way that interstate highways are federally funded, and maintained by the states. The EPA and Clean Air Act specifies the requirements, and regions, based on external data, such as the census. The states, where necessary as per the requirements set forth therein, receive federal funding and set up and administer emissions inspections requirements. Some states have it everywhere. Some states nowhere. And some states only in certain areas. Like Texas. Only certain counties are required to administer the inspection there, and they are the more populous areas. The vast majority of counties in Texas, are not required to have emissions inspection.


Well I happen to live in an emission county in Texas, (only a handful of counties, but probably 90% of the population). Which means I'm passing all my State and Federal requirements.... (except on my GT I gave up after 3 failures and got a waiver).

So we are saying the same thing... I think you just like to argue or something.

[This message has been edited by jscott1 (edited 11-05-2010).]

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Report this Post11-05-2010 04:19 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Jake_DragonSend a Private Message to Jake_DragonDirect Link to This Post
I thought the standards were set by the engine year Did they even have an EGR in 1972
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Report this Post11-05-2010 04:25 PM Click Here to See the Profile for TopNotchClick Here to visit TopNotch's HomePageSend a Private Message to TopNotchDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
So someone on another forum tells me all engine swaps are not EPA legal


Engine swaps are OK. Other car forums are not.
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Report this Post11-05-2010 04:35 PM Click Here to See the Profile for pontiackid86Click Here to Email pontiackid86Send a Private Message to pontiackid86Direct Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by TopNotch:


Engine swaps are OK. Other car forums are not.



This car forum imperticular is about as dumb as a bag of hammers.

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Report this Post11-05-2010 04:43 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Jake_Dragon:

I thought the standards were set by the engine year Did they even have an EGR in 1972


They are set by model year of vehicle, engine, and region.
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dobey
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Report this Post11-05-2010 04:50 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyDirect Link to This Post
 
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Originally posted by jscott1:
Well I happen to live in an emission county in Texas, (only a handful of counties, but probably 90% of the population). Which means I'm passing all my State and Federal requirements.... (except on my GT I gave up after 3 failures and got a waiver).

So we are saying the same thing... I think you just like to argue or something.


Nah. You just seemed to think that the EPA and Federal bits had nothing to do with it. CA is really the only state where the term "state emissions inspection" is entirely accurate, since they have a special exception for parts of the Clean Air Act due to the existence of CARB, and whatever else is involved in that exception. Granted, given the strictness I see everyone from CA complaining about, I think it's safe to say that CARB requirements exceeed those of the CAA. I wasn't trying to argue with you, just clarify what it all means for yourself and whoever else might read this thread. And it looks like we seem to agree on that clarity now.
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Jake_Dragon
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Report this Post11-05-2010 04:51 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Jake_DragonSend a Private Message to Jake_DragonDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by dobey:

They are set by model year of vehicle, engine, and region.


Yea I know, I can play dumb right
I could probably install most of the same type of equipment but there was no 1986 Fiero with a carburetor V8, but there was a 1972 Corvette
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pontiackid86
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Report this Post11-05-2010 05:17 PM Click Here to See the Profile for pontiackid86Click Here to Email pontiackid86Send a Private Message to pontiackid86Direct Link to This Post
So now according to RFT im a troll because of this thread? And i thought a tuner site was full of a bunch of morons.
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123mmmyFIERO
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Report this Post11-05-2010 05:26 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 123mmmyFIEROClick Here to Email 123mmmyFIEROSend a Private Message to 123mmmyFIERODirect Link to This Post
i live in indiana county pa..there is no emmisions test here,just your typical brakes and lites,,,cambria, my neighbor county does have emmisions, they check your gas cap,,i swear thats all there is for the emmisions test here...no catz no problem...hillbilly inspection.....
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Report this Post11-05-2010 05:55 PM Click Here to See the Profile for jscott1Send a Private Message to jscott1Direct Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by dobey:


Nah. You just seemed to think that the EPA and Federal bits had nothing to do with it. CA is really the only state where the term "state emissions inspection" is entirely accurate, since they have a special exception for parts of the Clean Air Act due to the existence of CARB, and whatever else is involved in that exception. Granted, given the strictness I see everyone from CA complaining about, I think it's safe to say that CARB requirements exceeed those of the CAA. I wasn't trying to argue with you, just clarify what it all means for yourself and whoever else might read this thread. And it looks like we seem to agree on that clarity now.


Yeah I was never really disagreeing with you, my point was I'm not losing sleep over Federal standards, because I already lose plenty of sleep dealing with State requirements, (which in the case of Texas are the same.) Like I said I went through the whole process of getting an emissions waiver, which was almost ridiculous, because I had to take the car to a special station to be tested to prove that it would fail so I could get my sticker. If by chance it passed I would also get my sticker, so the test was a waste of time.

By the way, the situation in the US is not so straightforward anymore as 16 states have requested and been granted permission to use CARB standards, so it's not just a California thing anymore. It's just a matter of time before CARB is everywhere. That will be an odd situation of one state setting a nationwide law.
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dobey
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Report this Post11-05-2010 06:30 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by jscott1:
By the way, the situation in the US is not so straightforward anymore as 16 states have requested and been granted permission to use CARB standards, so it's not just a California thing anymore. It's just a matter of time before CARB is everywhere. That will be an odd situation of one state setting a nationwide law.


Well, CAFE is basically the new CARB. And it's not that odd. There's a large precedent for a single state basically doing a trial for new law, and then having Federal law later come out of it, if one or more states enact with success. This wouldn't be the first time. If all 50 states were to actually follow and set up their own ARBs with the same standards as CARB, then they would just be subsumed into a new revision of the Clean Air Act, and all the state level boards dissolved into Federal mandates run by the states. And they would probably have split funding between EPA and Federal DOT.
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