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F40 & 3800 by mptighe
Started on: 01-04-2010 12:54 PM
Replies: 26
Last post by: mptighe on 06-10-2010 01:42 PM
mptighe
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Report this Post01-04-2010 12:54 PM Click Here to See the Profile for mptigheSend a Private Message to mptigheDirect Link to This Post
So there are a lot of people, myself included who would like a 6 speed manual "behind" their 3800. To my knowledge, no one on here has accomplished this yet. I know some are working on it, but I don't know of anyone that has it finished. I haven't given up on the idead yet, so I got to thinking that maybe someone with a different body style had accomplished it, and I started looking around. Well, apparently at least one guy has. Here's a You-Tube video of a LeSabre with a 3800 and a F40 transmission. Now that we know the mating is possible we just have to duplicate it and modify it for our cars. Oh, when I say we I mean you people with mechanical ability. Here's one of the videos, and by the way it says the car is for sale. I sent the guy an email to see if I could get any info from him. I will post whatever I find out, if anything.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=scwWTKST-rw
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Report this Post01-04-2010 01:03 PM Click Here to See the Profile for whodeanieClick Here to visit whodeanie's HomePageClick Here to Email whodeanieSend a Private Message to whodeanieDirect Link to This Post
I think Archie has done it now and can do a kit for it as well.
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mptighe
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Report this Post01-04-2010 01:09 PM Click Here to See the Profile for mptigheSend a Private Message to mptigheDirect Link to This Post
I know it was being talked about, but have yet to read that it was completed. Last I read he was waiting for someone to provide him with something. Either way if he wants the $3k for the kit that he wants for his V8 F40 kit I still think a more viable option is needed. Just my opinion on that though.
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Report this Post01-04-2010 02:05 PM Click Here to See the Profile for GS JonClick Here to visit GS Jon's HomePageSend a Private Message to GS JonDirect Link to This Post
I know I'm interested in the F40. Let's see what comes of this.
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Report this Post01-04-2010 02:33 PM Click Here to See the Profile for JncomuttClick Here to Email JncomuttSend a Private Message to JncomuttDirect Link to This Post
There is a post on THIS forum about someone that mounted the F40 to the 3800. (EDIT: He did it in grand prix)

Out of curiosity, what is your reason for wanting the 6-speed? Is it the gear ratios or the "coolness" of the 6 speeds?

[This message has been edited by Jncomutt (edited 01-04-2010).]

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GS Jon
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Report this Post01-04-2010 03:31 PM Click Here to See the Profile for GS JonClick Here to visit GS Jon's HomePageSend a Private Message to GS JonDirect Link to This Post
The higher factory-rated power handling of the trans is a good start why. At least from the information I've seen so far. Maybe this has been disproven?
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Report this Post01-04-2010 04:51 PM Click Here to See the Profile for MstangsBwareClick Here to Email MstangsBwareSend a Private Message to MstangsBwareDirect Link to This Post
This has been gone over several times already on the Forum. Several people out side of the Fiero community have completed the 6 speed swap behind a 3800 engine. I can think of atleast 3 that have done it right off the top of my head. There is not alot to it being Spec makes a clutch that is plug/play with the 3800 flywheel so that only leaves mounting the tranny, slapping some axles on it and configuring the shifter. There is no 4K kit that is needed for this install just some one with some time, talent and the want for a 6 speed.


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Report this Post01-04-2010 07:02 PM Click Here to See the Profile for topcatClick Here to Email topcatSend a Private Message to topcatDirect Link to This Post
Yeah, I have the links to the threads with the info for the plug and play clutch and flywheel parts from spec on my desktop at home... I want to do the swap, but time is not my friend. The mounts, and axles are the only things left to sort out as far as I can tell. I know Archie has a shfter that will work and might have axles that will work, but I am not sure as his kit is different than what is available from Spec - and I know he has an intermediate mount that is made to fit the 3800 block.

I am willing to pay someone to do it for me, and no I do not want it for the coolness factor, but for the durability with havig a new transmission instead of one that is XX years old. I also want to drop my highway RPM down a few hundred or so RPM as compared to my four speed. And no an auto is not an option for me. The Fiero will not be the same car to me with an auto - it is a personal preference thing.

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mptighe
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Report this Post01-04-2010 07:17 PM Click Here to See the Profile for mptigheSend a Private Message to mptigheDirect Link to This Post
As of the last post I saw back in October, Archie had not fabricated an intermediate shaft for this combination yet. Mstangs and Archie had a drawn out argument in that thread about cost effectiveness as well (what else is new right?). Here is the thread.

http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/078069.html

Unless I missed a thread somewhere this is the most recent discussion on the pair. Archie has not posted that he is selling a kit for this that I am aware of, especially since I told him I would buy one if he did. As far as not needing a kit, for those of us that aren't mechanically inclined, I would say yes a kit is needed. I would be happy to pay someone to do this, but I want it to be as simple as possible so I don't have to pay for all of their mistakes learning along the way.

Why would I want a 6 speed? For starters I drive this car every day, unlike some of the hobbyists that only drive their car once a year (no offense if anyone falls into this category). There are days when I have to drive 100+ miles on the interstate, and as it was stated above, I would like a new transmission to match the newer engine I am having installed. the extra MPG would be nice too. I unfortunately have an automatic now, and think the car should drive like a sports car, which means a stickshift. I'm not going to mod my 3800 to the extreme that FieroX has, so I'm not tremendously worried about blowing it up by shock loading it. I just want the car to be that way it should be in my mind, and if I'm going to pay for a manual conversion I might as well get the best transmission I can.

[This message has been edited by mptighe (edited 01-04-2010).]

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topcat
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Report this Post01-04-2010 07:24 PM Click Here to See the Profile for topcatClick Here to Email topcatSend a Private Message to topcatDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by V8 Archie's website
...Our New 6-Speed Fiero Transmission Conversion Kit allows you to mount the new Pontiac G6 6 speed transmission into any stick shift Pontiac Fiero.

We’ve now designed a kit to enable this new 6 speed to be installed into all stick shift Fieros. If you have a stock Fiero engine or a SBC engine swap or anything in between, we have a kit that will allow you to install the 6 speed.As you might know we do a lot of Chevy V-8 conversions here & have a lot of customers out there with SBC’s in their cars. The SBC version of our 6 speed conversion allows the SBC guys to use all of the major parts of their original V-8 conversion when retro-fitting the 6 speed.


He had a pic of a SC3800 with the F40 attached to the engine along with the intermediate shafts on the thread titled "what's up at Airchies" a couple of minths ago. So he does have them, or has the ability to produce them.
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mptighe
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Report this Post01-04-2010 07:43 PM Click Here to See the Profile for mptigheSend a Private Message to mptigheDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by topcat:


He had a pic of a SC3800 with the F40 attached to the engine along with the intermediate shafts on the thread titled "what's up at Airchies" a couple of minths ago. So he does have them, or has the ability to produce them.


Cool that thread didn't come up when I searched F40, since I haven't been able to find it, a link would be great. Thanks for the info topcat. Now, I have to decide if I want to spend 4-6 times the money for the kit than the transmission will cost me.

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Report this Post01-04-2010 07:58 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Custom2M4Click Here to Email Custom2M4Send a Private Message to Custom2M4Direct Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by mptighe:


Cool that thread didn't come up when I searched F40, since I haven't been able to find it, a link would be great. Thanks for the info topcat. Now, I have to decide if I want to spend 4-6 times the money for the kit than the transmission will cost me.


The economy swap kit is 1725$, what makes the 3800 so much harder and more expensive to install?

------------------

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Report this Post01-04-2010 08:09 PM Click Here to See the Profile for jscott1Send a Private Message to jscott1Direct Link to This Post
The G6 Specific parts are what add up to the cost. If you can source the parts yourself you can do it a lot cheaper.

The part of the swap that is unique to each engine is the mount for the intermediate shaft.

Archie has completed one for a 3800 if you are interested

http://www.fiero.nl/forum/F...000046-62.html#p2476

[This message has been edited by jscott1 (edited 01-04-2010).]

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Report this Post01-04-2010 08:10 PM Click Here to See the Profile for mptigheSend a Private Message to mptigheDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Custom2M4:


The economy swap kit is 1725$, what makes the 3800 so much harder and more expensive to install?



I may be wrong on this but it says the economy kit is not complete. In other words it's not plug and play. The plug and play kit is over $3200, and that's without the transmission. I don't slight the guy for being an entrepeneur but I'd rather do some competitive shopping before I lay out that kind of cash, especially when he all but flat out refused to even consider doing this in the past. When I spoke with him on the phone the couple of times I did, he immediately wanted off the phone as soon as I told him I didn't want a V8. Investing that kind of money with someone who doesn't even care for the application gives me reason to pause.

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Report this Post01-04-2010 08:12 PM Click Here to See the Profile for mptigheSend a Private Message to mptigheDirect Link to This Post

mptighe

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quote
Originally posted by jscott1:

The G6 Specific parts are what add up to the cost. If you can source the parts yourself you can do it a lot cheaper.

The parts of the swap that is unique to each engine in the mount for the intermediate shaft.

Archie has completed one for a 3800 if you are interested

http://www.fiero.nl/forum/F...000046-62.html#p2476





Thanks jscott. You've been very helpful on many threads. Even though my car is in the shop the offer still stabds for lunch sometime. I'd like to see your car.

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Report this Post01-04-2010 08:46 PM Click Here to See the Profile for darkhorizonSend a Private Message to darkhorizonDirect Link to This Post
If you are going to do this for strength I suggest you dont waste your time with the jack shaft / axles issues when there are easier options out there. The gear ratios suck, and the amount of mods required to run this are fairly significant.
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Report this Post01-04-2010 09:26 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ArchieClick Here to visit Archie's HomePageClick Here to Email ArchieSend a Private Message to ArchieDirect Link to This Post
The G6 6 speed conversion kit is a seperate kit from the V-8 conversion kits I sell.

The parts needed for a 6 speed swap are basically the same wether you have the stock 2.8 or any of the popular engine swaps. The only differences between the various 6 speed conversion kits is the Clutch friction plate & the Intermediate shaft bearing mount.

I have several different sizes of the Clutch Friction plates that should cover any engine/flywheel assembly that you are working with.

I also have the intermediate shaft bearing mounts for all the Chevy V-8 engines, the 4.1, 4.5, 4.9 Caddie engines & the 2.8 3.1 series engines.

I ALSO NOW HAVE THE BEARING MOUNT for the 3800sc engines. I announced that in the What's up at Archie's thread about 6 weeks ago. I don't make a ENGINE conversion kit for the 3800sc, I DO have a version of my 6 speed conversion kit that will alow you to use the F40 trans with your 3800sc.

http://www.fiero.nl/forum/F.../HTML/000046-62.html





If you go to this page on my web site http://www.v8archie.com/v8Archie/Prod3.htm You can read the general information on my 6 speed kit. then if you click on "Economy" you can read more then click on "Master" for more information. The prices are in there too.

There are some people who claim that a 6 speed swap can be completed for $800.00. They've never completed one yet. But they've posted that in several threads. They've been asked several times to show a parts list that comes even close to that price & they haven't done that either.

I know that SPEC will spec out the clutch & friction plate if you call them. However, when push comes to shove, They'll sell you the Clutch & tell you to call me for the Friction Plate. You see, the Friction Plate is my design & they'd rather sell them 60 at a time to me that one at a time to you.

Now when people are complaining that my prices are too high, they're really not thinking about what it takes to actually complete a 6 speed swap. The Clutch & friction plate are a small part of what it takes to actually get the trans in the car & be operational.

To do an F40 swap the following issues have to be addressed:

You'll need a transmission
Intermediate shaft from a G6 6 speed
Intermediate shaft bearing mount
Left & Right inboard Tri-pots from a G6 (GM don't sell these part seperate, so you'll need to buy a pair of G6 6 speed axles & take them apart.
Left & Right axle shafts to the correct lengths & with the needed splines for the above Tri-pots & the Fiero C/V joints
You'll need a SPEC Clutch
Yes, you'll need a Friction plate for that clutch wether it has an adapter plate or not
You'll have to have Transmission mounts fore & aft
You'll need a bracket for mounting the shift cables to the transmission
Hyd. line adapter system
An interface to make the 64000 PPM from the F40 trans work with the Fiero speedo
Shifter
Shift Cables

I don't like the fact that my 6 speed kits are more than I'd like them to be. But once you've priced all those items out you'll see that the prices of the most expensive items are out of my control.

Price out that list from above & you'll see what I mean.

Archie

[This message has been edited by Archie (edited 01-04-2010).]

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Report this Post01-04-2010 09:34 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ArchieClick Here to visit Archie's HomePageClick Here to Email ArchieSend a Private Message to ArchieDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Custom2M4:


The economy swap kit is 1725$, what makes the 3800 so much harder and more expensive to install?



Did you read this page?

http://www.v8archie.com/v8Archie/Prod3.htm

Archie

[This message has been edited by Archie (edited 01-04-2010).]

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Report this Post01-04-2010 09:54 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Custom2M4Click Here to Email Custom2M4Send a Private Message to Custom2M4Direct Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Archie:


Did you read this page?

Archie


Yes I've read this page and I'm hoping to do a F40 on my TT-Northstar fairly shortly, so I'm just clearifying here.

LSx Forward Right Engine Mount
LSx Right Rear Engine Mount
Intermediate Shaft for 6 Speed G6 Transmission
Left Side G6 Axle Assembly
Right Side G6 Axle Assembly
G6 Hyd. Clutch Line Fitting Check Valve
Dakota Digital SGI-5

Are the items the Master set has that the Economy doesn't. I take it the LSx mounts aren't needed for the 3800, the shaft / Valve / axles can be picked up locally (I'm guessing you just have to make your own axle from the 2 pairs you list), and if your running aftermarket gauges you don't need the Sgi - 5.

So basically the extra money for the master isn't really required if you can piece some local parts cheap enough.

My point Archie isn't to point out that the 3800 to F40 is an easy thing to do, however that it can still be done for shy of the master price as the thread starter was worried about (using your economy kit[3800]).

Not to hi-jack or anything, but have you made one for a northstar yet? (Inter. Bearing Mount)

[This message has been edited by Custom2M4 (edited 01-04-2010).]

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Report this Post01-04-2010 10:50 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ArchieClick Here to visit Archie's HomePageClick Here to Email ArchieSend a Private Message to ArchieDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Custom2M4:


Yes I've read this page and I'm hoping to do a F40 on my TT-Northstar fairly shortly, so I'm just clearifying here.

LSx Forward Right Engine Mount
LSx Right Rear Engine Mount
Intermediate Shaft for 6 Speed G6 Transmission
Left Side G6 Axle Assembly
Right Side G6 Axle Assembly
G6 Hyd. Clutch Line Fitting Check Valve
Dakota Digital SGI-5

Are the items the Master set has that the Economy doesn't. I take it the LSx mounts aren't needed for the 3800, the shaft / Valve / axles can be picked up locally (I'm guessing you just have to make your own axle from the 2 pairs you list), and if your running aftermarket gauges you don't need the Sgi - 5.

So basically the extra money for the master isn't really required if you can piece some local parts cheap enough.

My point Archie isn't to point out that the 3800 to F40 is an easy thing to do, however that it can still be done for shy of the master price as the thread starter was worried about (using your economy kit[3800]).

Not to hi-jack or anything, but have you made one for a northstar yet? (Inter. Bearing Mount)



The Economy kit includes.....

Custom Length Left side axle
Custom Length Right side axle
Mounting for Intermediate Shaft Bearing (specify engine being used)
V-8 Archie Stage III F-2 Clutch
Flywheel Friction Plate (specify engine being used)
Forward Transmission Mount (specify engine being used)
Rear Transmission Mount
6 Speed Shift Cable Mounting Brackets
Clutch Line Adapter

The price for the Economy 6 Speed Conversion Kit is $1724.00

Then you would ignore the paragraph about the LS parts and read this...

You will need to use a modified 4 speed Fiero shifter to complete this swap. If you send your shifter to us, we will make the modifications & send it back to you for $ 150.00.
You will need to use 2 Fiero Getrag Select Cables on this swap. (we recommend using new cables from Rodney Dickman) 1 of them remains unmodified. The other Select Cable needs to be modified. You can send that cable to us & we’ll do the modification for $80.00 or we can provide a new modified cable for $240.00.

(please note we no longer modify the cable as noted above, we now have that cable custom made for $180.00, thus saving $80.00)

The Economy kit was designed back when I first listed the kits on the web site. The Economy kit assumes that you are getting your 6 speed trans. out of a G6 at a boneyard. If that's the case, you might also be able to get the 2 G6 axle assemblies, the intermediate shaft & part of the clutch hyd. line out of that same G6 in the boneyard.

If you don't have a 6 speed G6 in your local junkyard, then you'll need to buy the GM G6 axles assemblies, intermediate shaft & the clutch hyd. line part over the counter.

The reason you have to buy the whole G6 axle assemblies is that GM doesn't sell the individual axle componets seperately. So you have to steal the inboard axle tripots from new axle assemblies.

If you don't have the junkyard donor G6 & don't feel like chasing down the G6 parts at the dealer, then the Master kit is the one you need.

I hope that helps.

Archie

Also......

If you're running aftermarket gages you do not need the SGI-5

We don't have the intermediate shaft mount for the NStar.

[This message has been edited by Archie (edited 01-04-2010).]

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Report this Post01-05-2010 12:10 AM Click Here to See the Profile for jscott1Send a Private Message to jscott1Direct Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Archie:

To do an F40 swap the following issues have to be addressed:

You'll need a transmission
Intermediate shaft from a G6 6 speed
Intermediate shaft bearing mount
Left & Right inboard Tri-pots from a G6 (GM don't sell these part seperate, so you'll need to buy a pair of G6 6 speed axles & take them apart.
Left & Right axle shafts to the correct lengths & with the needed splines for the above Tri-pots & the Fiero C/V joints
You'll need a SPEC Clutch
Yes, you'll need a Friction plate for that clutch wether it has an adapter plate or not
You'll have to have Transmission mounts fore & aft
You'll need a bracket for mounting the shift cables to the transmission
Hyd. line adapter system
An interface to make the 64000 PPM from the F40 trans work with the Fiero speedo
Shifter
Shift Cables

I don't like the fact that my 6 speed kits are more than I'd like them to be. But once you've priced all those items out you'll see that the prices of the most expensive items are out of my control.

Price out that list from above & you'll see what I mean.

Archie



I meant to say something like this in my earlier post, but Archie said it better.

A lot of people complain about how much it costs to have a 6 speed installed, but it's like anything else. Can you get junk yard parts and do it yourself cheaper? Of course.

But if you don't have the time to chase down all the parts, or the knowledge, skills and ability to do it yourself then you pay someone else to do it. That's the way it is in every field of endeavor. The same reason NASA is on the verge of paying private companies to fly astronauts into space. Sometimes it's easier to just pay someone else to do the job.

As for the ratios...the 6 speed might not look good on paper, but it's a million times more fun to drive than an auto.
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Report this Post01-05-2010 12:46 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Flyn2LowSend a Private Message to Flyn2LowDirect Link to This Post
Just my 2 cents worth, but this is a one time cost, to bring your pride and joy into the 21st century, to give it the power and mpg it deserves, for you to enjoy for another 20 years. BTW I bought 6 F40's for $350 each. You can't even get a wore out Fiero Getrag for that.
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Report this Post01-06-2010 04:29 AM Click Here to See the Profile for AustralianClick Here to visit Australian's HomePageClick Here to Email AustralianSend a Private Message to AustralianDirect Link to This Post
have seen 6 speeds for sale on here from a G6's claimed to mate up.
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Report this Post01-06-2010 04:33 AM Click Here to See the Profile for AustralianClick Here to visit Australian's HomePageClick Here to Email AustralianSend a Private Message to AustralianDirect Link to This Post

Australian

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Member since Sep 2004
like a 6 speed if a 7 speed was available it doesnt mean it would be faster off the line. Fastest option is getrag. just means you may be either changing gears more often or if lucky a higher top end but big deal you want the launch.
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Report this Post01-06-2010 12:51 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Formula88Send a Private Message to Formula88Direct Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Australian:

have seen 6 speeds for sale on here from a G6's claimed to mate up.


The G6 6-speed is the F40.
"mate up" doesn't mean "drop in replacement."
The bellhousings are the same bolt pattern, so yes, the transmission will physically bolt up. It has a different bellhousing depth, though, so you can't just bolt it up and use a factory Fiero clutch and flywheel. It also has axles completely different than a Fiero, so customizing is required there. Then there's the speedo calibration.

All "mate up" means is no adapter plate is required. You'll still need everything in Archie's kit one way or the other - either sourced new, used, junkyard, etc. If you're using aftermarket gauges, you can get by without the Dakota digital speedo conversion.
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Report this Post01-06-2010 04:54 PM Click Here to See the Profile for mptigheSend a Private Message to mptigheDirect Link to This Post
Not trying to draw business away from anyone here, but I did want to share the owner's response.


 
quote
Hi Michael, Thanks for the contact. The turbo lesabre project is a success. I have been driving the new build buick lesabre for 5,113 miles. the car is equipt with the tubocharger (TD06) liquid intercool, 3800 series I engine with a 6 speed manual transmission (F40).I have posted video on youtube and photobucket.com.

http://s73.photobucket.com/...?albumview=slideshow

http://www.youtube.com/user/SteveXnycperformance

I will send you a more recent video for the exhust system and the car fully driving.The engine still required a boost controler (deltagate). For now, i drive the car easy with miminum boost (8 psi). It runs and drive very strong, out running alot of new hi-dollar cars. I have done a few build for people around the country, about 5 cars so far. most of the 6 speed build are all supercharge. I custom cut the flywheel (aluminum free up more HP or steel more durable) with a kevlar 8 puck clutch and pressure plate (2000 lbs extra clamping/grip)). The flywheel/clutch package is $1500.00.

I can also provide a turn-key package. on most cars, the owner will drop off a supercharger 3800 car for a six speed conversion at a $5500.00 cost.

a few complete power/driveline package is a supercharge 3800 series II with a 6 speed gear box, all bolt together running and driving (complete) at a $10,000 cost.

Turbocharge 3800 package will depend on car (platform).

all of the custom build comes with re-tune PCM/ECM (no check engine light). the software can also be modified to pass state emmision gas laws, by doing so will rob the engine of power and performace plus lifetime. Non emmision car are required for off road usage....You can view the photo album to have a better idea of the type of work i do. Most of my turn around time are 2-3 months per project.

thank you
steve naidu

http://s73.photobucket.com/...erformance/?start=20



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mptighe
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Report this Post06-10-2010 01:42 PM Click Here to See the Profile for mptigheSend a Private Message to mptigheDirect Link to This Post
Reviving this old thread to see if anyone has a 3800 with a F40 running around for feedback and rough costs etc?
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