Didn't you dyno your car on a Dyno Dynamics dyno?? I remember you posting a bunch of links way back about how it read really low compared to what other brands are making.

Well, uhh, I went to a dyno dynamics today. Car made 518HP and just about flat 500 tq. My excuses aren't the dyno, its my Piece of CRAP spec clutch that just slipped like hell. This thing should make well over 550 on the same dyno with a decent clutch.

Yes, this is a 5speed. I drive this car daily. The transmission hasn't broken in over 2 years. I am about to swap to an auto however, and I just wanted to get some numbers before I put it away for the winter. Once the auto is in, low ETs are coming my way.

Also, stock bottom end, stock unported heads, XP Supercharger cam, MPT70, 24psi, 93 octane, 16 degrees timing.


BTW, correction factor was .94.



If you listen, you can hear the clutch slip and see it in the dyno. By the end of the day, the car was just taching up and not puttin anythign to the rollers..

And for comparison...

[This message has been edited by Jncomutt (edited 12-12-2009).]

Big Horsepower and manuals transmissions don't mix very well

Welp, better a slipping clutch than broken trans or axle. Impressive #'s. Interesting that the supercharger grind cam did as well as it did, I'd expect more if you had a turbo cam in there. Not to take anything away from your achievements, of course. Major kudos to you.

quote Originally posted by Justinbart: Big Horsepower and manuals transmissions don't mix very well

quote Originally posted by Jncomutt: Yes, this is a 5speed. I drive this car daily. The transmission hasn't broken in over 2 years. I am about to swap to an auto however, and I just wanted to get some numbers before I put it away for the winter.

....I haven't broken my trans either (with the turbo setup) but my clutch slips now and then. It sure is frustrating when it lets you down.

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Turbo 3800 getrag 5spd spec3
11.74@123

[This message has been edited by Justinbart (edited 12-12-2009).]

Absolutely, SPEC = junk.

Maybe the slipping clutch kept the trans alive these past 2 years?

You keep giving me hope that i can still have a manual fiero and make good power, even though i kinda know better.

I haven't had the same clutch in the car the past two years. I also don't drive it easy. I beat the hell out of the car, and love to just side step the clutch. Its also made 30+ track passes. Turbos are apparently MUCH easier on the transmission than the SC, it would seem...

Have logs of the dyno? Curious how much slip you ended up with.

If your actual whp with the manual was under 540/550, then it is going to be tough to stay north of 500 on the auto setup.

sweet!
Look into a "cali kid" clutch...the quartermaster pricey but should hold

quote Originally posted by revin: sweet! Look into a "cali kid" clutch...the quartermaster pricey but should hold

Thats a joke right?

quote Originally posted by darkhorizon: If your actual whp with the manual was under 540/550, then it is going to be tough to stay north of 500 on the auto setup.

Car was on its way to making 550 if it wasn't for the clutch. I'm sure the auto will suck up a lot more power than what I was loosing due to slippage, but I have a bigger turbo coming with the new auto (not smaller) The dyno pulls were at 24psi but I've run this T70 up to 27psi. I tend to think I'd probably be better off running a bigger turbo at less boost. Besides, even with the 5speed, this thing hits like nitrous...

quote Originally posted by Jncomutt: BTW, correction factor was .94.

First, tremendous numbers, no matter how you slice it, not trying to talk **** here.

Can you explain the rationale for the use of a correction factor?

Typically correction factors are used to account for differences in atmospheric density as they pertain to the effect on the volumetric efficiency of a naturally aspirated engine, and these factors seem typically unnecessary for a turbocharged engine which will achieve the same intake manifold density regardless of atmospheric conditions.

A turbocharged engine can "make up" for "thinner" air in a way that NA engines cannot.

http://www.land-and-sea.com...ected-horsepower.htm

hey congrats on your dyno results! good stuff man

Doesn't that correction factory lower his number by 6%? So without any C/F he is making MORE power.

Obviously the auto will eat more HP, but I don't think its going to eat 60 more hp than the 5peed.

quote Originally posted by Mr.PBody: Doesn't that correction factory lower his number by 6%? So without any C/F he is making MORE power. Obviously the auto will eat more HP, but I don't think its going to eat 60 more hp than the 5peed.

Whether it makes more or less power, why use the correction factor?

quote Originally posted by Mr.PBody: Doesn't that correction factory lower his number by 6%? So without any C/F he is making MORE power. Obviously the auto will eat more HP, but I don't think its going to eat 60 more hp than the 5peed.

10-11% more loss seems about right for an auto

which spec clutch are u running???

That is just Brutal.

The correction factor is based on the air temp, humidity, etc. The air temperature was about 45* ambient. The numbers are calculated based on a (SAE?) standard. Because the temperature is lower than at that standard, the corrector factor is calculated in. The reasoning behind it is that an engine should make more power on colder (more dense) air. The same car in a 40* dyno room or in a 100* dyno room will have much different numbers, this just tries to even the field a bit.

The correction factor in my case took the calculated power number and multiplied it by .94 to come up with 518. The uncorrected number was about 550. I'm not making up for "Thinner" air, I'm reducing my numbers due to "Thicker" air.

I'm using a SPEC stage 3+ disc with the SuperClamp pressure plate.

Here are some more runs. The car sounds like it has a torque converter, lol. In actuality, its my car taching up and holding 6200 RPMs while the wheelspeed catches up with the engine..

Typically with turbo setups you will not use a correction factor... or at least reduce the correction factor down to about 25% of what it was... so basically you would use a 98% correction factor.

The reasoning is due to the fact that the turbo will spin faster to add more boost in thin air, and slower in thicker air to hit target boost. The 25% number comes from the idea that a slower turbo will make cooler boost, and a faster one will make hotter boost, resulting in a fairly minuscule adjustment in horsepower.

What QuarterMasters suck now? did I miss a thread?? I always thought he had good luck with it.?

what about cinder? or are the Kevlar ones the "better" one. I am nowhere near needing a heavy duty one at this time, But I would like to know

only as far as the holding factor. better than a spec stage 3+ ??

quote Originally posted by revin: What QuarterMasters suck now? did I miss a thread?? I always thought he had good luck with it.?

I do have good luck with it, peanut gallery is just letting off some farts.

edit to add: The QuarterMaster 7.25 Pro Series Double Disk with metallic disks will easily hold 600 ft. lbs of torque, you will need to improve the Getrag and axles though. Neck brace recommended when driving hard, sucker is really positive locking!!!

Awesome dyno numbers by the way!!!

[This message has been edited by California Kid (edited 12-14-2009).]

Thanks guys. I would love to put in a better clutch but I just don't see the point. At the point I'm at, I've decided its just better to go with an auto.

Nice numbers definitely. But like any dyno numbers are different from dyno to dyno. I made 443 hp on a dyno dynamics at 19 psi of boost at 11.6:1 afr. I went to 21.5 psi and made 431 hp at 13.6:1 afr because I was running lean. Come to find out when I redesigned my fuel system, back in the day when I first did my engine swap I bought the low pressure walbro 255 and above 19 psi when boost referencing 1:1 (so I was running 70 psi+ of fuel pressure), the flow rate drops to nothing on the low pressure 255.

I havent been back to that dyno, because that shop is in direct competition with me now at my shop. I take my car to Oklahoma and last dyno'd on a Mustang dyno. Good numbers at 24 psi though, thats where I made best power too.

Wow congrats on the big numbers I have heard only good thing about your car and swap. Would love to come see it in person, since I am local. Again congrats.

Ken~

quote Originally posted by Jncomutt: Also, stock bottom end, stock unported heads, XP Supercharger cam

Nice!! You have almost the exact setup I will be shooting for Except my target is only 450hp and a smaller turbo. So it looks like the spec 3+ will hold at 450? Then thats good enough for me.

Wish I could see that graph better, but youtube on the iphone is not the best quality.

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'84 3800SC, XP cam, 3.2 pully, HPTuners, N* TB, 4sp, SPEC 3+ clutch, Aluminium flywheel, pacesetter headers, F355 body kit, weight reduction

The graph looks the way it does because of the type of dyno. There is no smoothing and what you see is what you get.



The reason that peak is at 3800 is because that is where the car spools up hard then the clutch lets go. If the clutch held, that dip should not have been there. This dyno uses a calculated RPM based on wheel speed and a synchronization they do before the pulls. My car hit the rev limiter at 6300 and that is why you see the 3 'peaks' at the end of one run. If you look at the calculated wheelspeed however, it was only at about 5600 rpms. That is all slip.

[This message has been edited by Jncomutt (edited 12-14-2009).]

I would recommend looking into a clutchnet.com clutch. We put one into my 3.4 pr with headers, trueleo, exhaust and ingnition. Car put's out decent power but nothing like 500 to the wheels. But the clutch is awesome and is much better than the spec clutch we compared it to before install.

They are a great value, and are building a rep for being reliable with big power setups. It clamps/grips HARD. And I know it will hold up to my Turbo coming soon.

I BOUGHT THE ONE RATED FOR 450 hp, THEY ALSO HAVE HIGHER RATED ONES THAN THAT.

Jncomutt

Those are some awesome numbers
I read about it at work and was smiling like crazy
I can not imagine what your car feels like. I am sure it must be a blast
I would love to see your car in person.
Do you think you might come to the Fiero Show in Daytona ?

I have a some questions:
Do you have a build tread ? or a place where you have the info on your set up ?
Any pics of your eng ?

Is the Getrag stock ? or did you rebuild it ?
Could you please tell us what is your set up on your eng.
ex:
TB stock or N* ?
Injectors ?
who did your tunning ?
What fuel pump are you running ?
Exaust size ?
What kind of intercooler are you running ?
At what RPM do you start to build boost ?
What is a MPT70?
Do you know why a turbo is easier on the trans than a SC ?

I am in the process of doing a swap right now and I am hoping to do it wright the first time.

Thanks is advance

The getrag is just as it came from the junkyard. I got it with 80k miles.
I'm using a stock camaro tb. (I'm using the camaro 3800 intakes since I pulled off the SC)
I'm using Siemens-Deka 60lb/hr injectors
I do all my own tuning, I'm using a stand alone engine management system
I'm using a Bosch "044" Fuel pump
The headers are custom made 1 5/8 primaries, 2.5" crossover, and 3.5" downpipe
I'm using a Turbonetics/Spearco 2-230 air water intercooler
Boost comes on at 3500 and hits hard. You can see in the graph above. The area it starts to build is 3500 and it ramps straight up to 24.It is fully spooled by 3800rpms.
MPt70 stands for Master Power brand of turbos and the size is a T70. FieroX is a dealer for this brand.
I don't know if its actually easier, but I haven't broken a trans since turbo. I think the trans has lasted because the turbo doesn't really 'hit' until the car is already moving and under load.


Good luck with your build, keep us updated!

BTW, if you're interested in going 3800 turbo with a manual, I'm putting an auto in my car and will need to remake the headers. Since my current hot side will just be sitting on a shelf in the garage, I'd be willing to sell you the headers, crossover, wastegate, and downpipe for about $2500. These are custom made headers, v-band connections, turbosmart 38mm wastegate, 70mm anti-surge turbo, all ceramic coated. Must be willing to cut your trunk.

[This message has been edited by Jncomutt (edited 12-15-2009).]

Jncomutt
Thanks for the fast reply.
I am really impressed
What size of injectors are you running ?
I am just curious.

I will definetly be asking questions about the swap.
I would appreciate any help or pointers...

Thanks for the offer on the turbo set up, but I am doing a " budget " swap.

Thanks again

[This message has been edited by 85LAMB (edited 12-14-2009).]

Jon what ever happened to your white car?

Nice numbers by the way!

Dude, you're nuts! Congrats!!!