You see, I've been thinking about the stuff in my garage.
I have a 1986 Fiero SE without a working drivetrain in my garage. I have two 2.8 liter V6 engines, in pieces, and a 3-speed automatic transmission of dubious utility.
And sitting right next to all that I have a perfectly usable 1995 Escort drivetrain. Complete, fully assembled, needing nothing but fresh oil.
The Escort drivetrain makes 88 horsepower and something like 105 foot-pounds of torque. The equivalent Fiero drivetrain--using the 2.5 liter "Iron Duke" engine and a 5-speed transmission--would make 95 horsepower and 115 foot-pounds. So it would not be a performance upgrade.
But the fuel economy...the Escort drivetrain netted 36 MPG in an Escort, which weighs about as much as a Fiero does.
Making engine mounts isn't a problem--buy some plate steel, figure out what shapes are needed, cut, tack in place with the MIG, and then have the local welding shop do the finish welding for me. It would take some doing but it wouldn't be difficult; just tedious in spots. (Such as cutting 1/4 inch plate steel with a sawzall or cutoff wheel. *sigh*)
The shift linkage would take some doing. The Fiero uses cables, and the Escort uses a shift rod, but I've already got an idea how to take care of that issue; building an adapter wouldn't be that hard. (Again, just tedious.)
I'd need to get a set of Escort axles, the computer, and wiring harness. I have no idea if I could make a hybrid axle by combining parts from the GM and Ford axles, or if I'd have to have custom axles made. Probably the latter, but custom axles would be stronger than factory parts anyway.
Wiring the computer would be entertaining. I could eliminate the Fiero computer entirely. I'd have to run the speedo off of the Escort transaxle's VSS, which means I'd have to condition the signal from said VSS to conform to what the speedo expects, but that's not a hard thing for me to do. (I'm a DeVry graduate!) (You can go ahead and insert retching noises here, but I really am capable of doing things like that. Really.) Changing resistors in the tach to get it to read correctly for a 4-cylinder isn't hard, either.
Have to check what fuel pressure the Escort engine expects. An adjustible fuel pressure regulator would take care of that, probably. (I doubt that a V6 fuel pump would have trouble keeping up with the demands of a 4-cylinder engine.)
From here it looks like the axles will be the most egregiously expensive parts, at least if I have to buy custom ones. I can get the rest of what I need from a boneyard, and there are literal millions of Escorts out there. (Finding one with an uncut engine bay wiring harness, however, may be a bit challenging.)
After that, then I need only make a pipe to patch the Escort exhaust header into the Fiero exhaust system--and that means making one pipe. One.
Dang.
Having done all the hard parts, if I were to later go get a 1997 2.0 liter Escort engine, I'd keep the fuel economy and end up with more Duke-like power and torque, too.
The Escort engine is, as I recall, basically a Mazda engine. So what interesting possibilities would that open up? I wonder....
Ed
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09:35 AM
PFF
System Bot
ss85fiero Member
Posts: 385 From: jacksonville florida usa Registered: May 2006
Since you used the mazda reference, the only thing that comes to my mind , would be the rotary engine they produce. I dont know if anyone has ventured in that area of an engine swap or not, but it would be interesting to see.
------------------ 87 fiero gt 4.9 99 trans am ls1 86 fiero se 2.8 (eventually to be a 3.8sc)
Go for it ! Anything is possible if you try. Here is a hint for cutting the plate steel. Get an electric angle grinder and some 4 1/2" cut-off discs . That combo worked great for me when i made my mounts. Using a small pnuematic angle grinder will take forever !
Since you used the mazda reference, the only thing that comes to my mind , would be the rotary engine they produce. I dont know if anyone has ventured in that area of an engine swap or not, but it would be interesting to see.
Well, I wouldn't try to put a rotary into a Fiero. Two reasons:
1) I don't happen to have one handy 2) I like motors with low-end torque.
The rotaries aren't inherently bad or anything; it's just that you have to rev 'em pretty high to make power, and I rarely run any engine faster than 3,500 RPM. High-winding motors are pretty well wasted on me; gimme a tractor motor.
I think someone brought the idea up over in Tech, and it was shown that there'd be a lot of work to do with making the exhaust fit, among other things. It would be interesting to see, but it's not really my cup of tea.
I was thinking more along the lines of Mazda's conventional motors. Assuming the same bellhousing pattern, I could swap in any of a bunch of 4-cylinder engines which would make the car really fun to drive.
All that's down the road a piece, though. First I have to decide if I'm going to do it; and if I am, I have to make the basic motor fit, first.
Go for it ! Anything is possible if you try. Here is a hint for cutting the plate steel. Get an electric angle grinder and some 4 1/2" cut-off discs . That combo worked great for me when i made my mounts. Using a small pnuematic angle grinder will take forever !
That's what I use for almost all of my steel cutting. I met all of my IMSA car requirements usnig this method. It is one of my favorite tools.
Well, here is a picture of the shift rod on the transmission:
I think I have worked out how I can make the Fiero cables shift that thing--it'll mean fabricating an adapter, but it shouldn't be too hard.
I just need to find out how much, and which way, the Fiero shift cables move when the shifter is actuated; then I can design a mechanism to convert the cable movements into the movements this thing's expecting.
The rod rotates along its axis a rather small amount to get the row select (1-2, 3-4, 5-R) and slides in/out to pick the gear in a particular row. Getting the leverage right will be the hardest part of it, so it's not too hard to shift gears.
The minor worry I have right now is the accessory mounts on the engine:
I'm thinking I might have Fiero Addiction make a custom AC hose for me, which will let me use the Ford AC compressor. Ford made Escorts without power steering, so theoretically if I could find the bracket for a car without PS but with AC, and use the shorter belt, I wouldn't have to gin up any kind of special idler to take the place of the PS pulley. Real world, though, how many cars did they make WITH AC but WITHOUT PS?
Worst case, put a PS pump in place, pipe the outlet to the return, and forget about it.
...the pre-wrenching thought continues. Be afraid. Be as afraid as I am.
Ed
PS The broom handles are holding the side gears in the differential. Without the broom handles, the side gears would drop right out. Another one of Ford's "better ideas".
EDIT: fixed first image
[This message has been edited by edhering (edited 05-19-2008).]
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10:35 PM
PFF
System Bot
May 20th, 2008
Australian Member
Posts: 4701 From: Sydney Australia Registered: Sep 2004
So you have skills i think you shouldnt be using ford parts myself and why downgrade. If your gonna put a ford motor in it make it a 351. I would keep it all GM myself but i wouldnt be doing any swaps that didnt offer perfomance i personally think you could put same amount of time into it and end up with a better car.
So you have skills i think you shouldnt be using ford parts myself and why downgrade. If your gonna put a ford motor in it make it a 351. I would keep it all GM myself but i wouldnt be doing any swaps that didnt offer perfomance i personally think you could put same amount of time into it and end up with a better car.
Because, as I said before, I have the complete drivetrain just sitting in my garage. If I were to put anything else in, I would have to go buy it, and the budget for this year doesn't include several thousand dollars for engine and transmission, and I'm sick of this car sitting in my garage.
I could rebuild the V6, yes, and reinstall it. But the Ford drivetrain I have is good for 36 MPG and the performance should be acceptable. It won't win any races but I am not building this car to be a race car of any kind.
If I want to move fast, I have an '85 with a V6 sitting in my driveway that runs and drives fine, but it gets 18 MPG on a good day.
Gas is currently hovering around $4 per gallon here. The Chicago area reportedly has the highest gas prices in the US right now.
AND this is a swap no one else has done. It's within my capability (I'm pretty sure, anyway ) and I've got the most expensive part of the swap--the drivetrain--literally collecting dust in my garage.
If/when gas drops to a more reasonable price, I'll probably put something else in. (Caddy 4.9 in all probability. Like I said above, I like tractor motors. ) But for now, IMHO, it's all good.
Ed
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03:08 PM
Richjk21 Member
Posts: 2228 From: Central Square NY, USA Registered: Feb 2006
Don't let the nay sayers dissuade you Ed. I'm watching this with interest, as I like the engineering aspects that go with any kind of swap or major power train mods. I just like seeing things that are different - Diesel Fieros, electric Fieros, LPG fieros.... I find them all interesting. Funny how no one is busting Dave's chops over a VW powered fiero. I hope you see this project all the way through to completion.
Well, I think it's important to point out to folks that not every engine swap HAS to make the Fiero a faster car. The question, "Why do it if it won't be faster?" can be countered with, "Why bother to put a $5,000 V8 in a car when the speed limit is still in effect?" Everyone has his own reasons for doing a swap; if you like having a 500 HP Fiero, more power to you, so to speak--but if you can't fathom the idea of swapping the engine to enhance the car's fuel economy, I guess I don't know how to explain it to you.
Can I find a car that gets 36 MPG? Sure. I've got one--my 1995 Escort--but it's not as COOL as a Fiero is. I have the car--without a good drivetrain--and I have a good drivetrain that's not a GM drivetrain. Yet I know I can make the two fit and work together, thus enabling me to clean out my garage a bit.
So, I'm going to do this post specifically to explain myself one more time in detail, and then if anyone has anything negative to say about it, I'll ignore it.
Top 10 reasons Ed's putting an Escort drivetrain in his '86 Fiero:
1) I already have a good drivetrain. It came from my totaled 1995 Escort. I had intended to fix the car, but when I bought a parts car (for $400) I realized that the parts car was in such good shape I could just drive IT instead. I spent a week fixing the car and then started using it, and scrapped the wrecked car. I took the drivetrain and some other parts from it and got rid of the hulk.
I had owned the totaled car since it was new. The drivetrain has 105,000 miles on it; the oil was changed regularly, and it was revved faster than 4,500 RPM ONCE. I'm going to put a clutch in it, but I'd wager the clutch that's in it is still usable. (The $400 one has its original clutch and is over 151,000 miles.)
2) It's different. No one's done it.
3) Yes, it's a bit stupid. I like it that way. I'm an iconoclast.
4) The 1.9 SOHC engine from the Escort provides acceptably zippy acceleration in an Escort with a manual transmission. (IMHO.) The 1995 is a light, agile car with nice handling characteristics, and it's even fun to drive. Since the Escort and Fiero weigh about the same, the Fiero ought to be just as much fun.
5) I got 36 MPG with that car. The Fiero ought to do just as well. Gas is over $4 per gallon right now.
6) People will say "WTF?" when they see the custom decklid sticker:
7) I like a challenge and I find this project idea a lot more interesting than just rebuilding the V6 and sticking it back in.
8) It'll be easier to access the oil filter with this swap.
9) I won't be as hesitant to try it with a Quad 4 or Ecotec next time.
10) There are approximately 50,000,000,000 Escorts out there--parts are easy to find.
...and, by the way, it will also leave me with a spare Fiero engine, which could then (conceivably, and once rebuilt) be put into the 1977 MGB in the garage, which is about as reliable as cars with Lucas ("Prince of Darkness") electrics tend to be. The Fiero engine with a Camaro 5-speed manual will fit and be a serious upgrade to an MGB, let me tell you: it'll have superior reliability, while delivering about the same fuel economy and 2x the performance. (AND be cleaner to boot, thus passing the emissions tests with ease.)
And putting Ford engine into GM car will give me the experience to tackle the MGB project. So you see, there is more than meets the eye here....
Anyway, that's it.
Ed
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06:14 PM
Richjk21 Member
Posts: 2228 From: Central Square NY, USA Registered: Feb 2006
I have been thinking about this far too much. It's scary but I think I'm actually serious about this.
Ed
i think im going to be sick ...this is so wrong,first off...im not a purist and i have been known to put odd engines in anything if theres an advantage to it . i dont like ford products but i i would have been on board if you said you wanted to put a s/c tbird motor or sho taurus or svo capri even,you should just cut out the floor boards and flintstone it ....please sell the motor and trans to someone who who wants to keep their crap box going and use the money for a more logical swap, a swap should be an upgrade of some type ,not putting a briggs and stratton lawnmower engine in because you have one,the little bit of difference in hp is not worth the hassle, sorry...not the answer you are looking for im sure....i just think that everyone should be proud to raise their hood
Originally posted by edhering: The equivalent Fiero drivetrain--using the 2.5 liter "Iron Duke" engine and a 5-speed transmission--would make 95 horsepower and 115 foot-pounds.
Actually a duke makes 135 foot-pounds of torque. The torque number equates to how much power you feel at launch. The HP number equates to the power you feel when you wind it up. A healthy duke launches pretty well, but peters out when you wind it up.
) and I've got the most expensive part of the swap--the drivetrain--literally collecting dust in my garage.
