Has anyone investigated (and/or TRIED) an HHO generator in their Fiero?

If you are not familiar with this, it is a method of using water to, among other things, increase gas mileage.

It is NOT water-INJECTION, as used in supercharged cars. If you will Google HHO or Brown's gas or hydroxy and you'll find tons of guys experimenting with this idea. Many very serious experiments.

I'd like opinions on this as I am interested in either buying or making one.

Since I'm not sure where this subject belongs, I'm also posting this in the O/T part of the forum

------------------
John

i dont know anyone who has attempted it yet.....but ive done a bit of research. i dont know what to think of it as a performance engine. or as an engine for every car on the road having water engines.

.

[This message has been edited by JazzMan (edited 04-21-2009).]

quote Originally posted by THE REAL Fieronut: I'd like opinions on this as I am interested in either buying or making one.

Since you asked for opinions....this is snake oil.

This HHO or oxyhydrogen might be an acceptable fuel for an automobile. But using the car's battery to make the oxy-hydrogen to then burn in the engine voilates several laws of physics.

The energy required to generate the oxyhydrogen always exceeds the energy released by combusting it. So you are wasting your time and money.

EDIT - I hadn't seen JazzMan's reply when I typed mine, but he's right.

[This message has been edited by jscott1 (edited 04-21-2008).]

The gentlemen above are correct. It's called a negative energy return. It takes more energy to produce this fuel than you would get from burning it. Many so-called alternative energies suffer from the same encumbrance.

For it to work it would have to break the second law of thermodynamics.

http://www.rpi.edu/~markhn/sounds/laws.wav

I am certainly not trying to argue with any one here. In fact, when my friend told me about it, I thot, "HA! Another scam!" But then I researched it (look for "HHO" on Google or YouTube or Ebay) I at least had to RE-think my conclusion.

There are guys--MANY GUYS!--using these right now. Several versions are being sold on Ebay and there are books on the subject. One guy did a series of videos on YouTube, drove from Lubbock TX to Houston, 501 miles in a Civic. Prior to the test he said his average hiway mpg was about 31. During the test, it shows the speedometer and gas gauge. He filled up both places and in HOU, he figured he had gotten about 44.5 mpg--an over 40% increase. Could it have been faked? OF COURSE! But with DOZENS of people using these things and ALL of them reporting better mpg, it would have to be a VERRRRY giant conspiracy.

Everyone has heard the thesis that "According to all the laws of aerodynamics, a bumble bee cannot fly. However, the bumble bee, not knowing this, just goes ahead and does it"

I hesitate to draw a parallel here, but even tho laws of physics say you can't do it, these dummies SEEM to be doing it.

By the way, I have NO ulterior motive. I AM NOT SELLING THEM! There are soooo many different ideas, I wouldn't know where to start. Frankly, it reminds me of the early air planes or automobiles or computers. EVERYONE with a garage was building one.

My original question still stands, does ANYONE have EXPERIENCE (not theory) with one of these?

------------------
John

Okay, assuming for a minute that it's not a scam. There are other reasons why it might "appear" that your fuel economy went up, but it really didn't.

Let's say you start out with a fully charged battery. Then you use that battery to make some of this HHO. Now you add it to your fuel and get a little extra something out of it. But have you calculated how much extra energy you had to put back in the battery to get it back to it's original state? Or is the battery now missing 30 or 40 amp hours?

Sorry all I have is theories to offer. But if someone presents a device that violates the 2nd law of thermodynamics they better have some heavy duty working models of their device, because the Earth is going to fall off it's axis if it's true.

[This message has been edited by jscott1 (edited 04-21-2008).]

quote Originally posted by jscott1: Okay, assuming for a minute that it's not a scam. There are other reasons why it might "appear" that your fuel economy went up, but it really didn't. Let's say you start out with a fully charged battery. Then you use that battery to make some of this HHO. Now you add it to your fuel and get a little extra something out of it. But have you calculated how much extra energy you had to put back in the battery to get it back to it's original state? Or is the battery now missing 30 or 40 amp hours? Sorry all I have is theories to offer. But if someone presents a device that violates the 2nd law of thermodynamics they better have some heavy duty working models of their device, because the Earth is going to fall off it's axis if it's true.

I can certainly agree with EVERYTHING everyone is saying about the THEORIES involved here. But in plain words, THESE THINGS ARE BEING MADE AND THEY APPEAR TO WORK. They APPEAR to do what people say they do. And the electricty is coming from the alternator, not the battery. Maybe the alternator will wear out MUCH sooner than before. I dunno!

I know that the procedure produces heat. So that is where some of the energy is going.

But my feeling is, you can't argue with RESULTS. And there are SOOOO many guys making AND USING these things...they can't ALL be lying! Mass hypnosis? Maybe. Maybe they WANT to believe this works SOOO much that they don't see the realities.

I DON'T KNOW! But it sure SEEMS to be a way to get MUCH better MPG than using gas alone.

So again, I ask my question...Does anyone have EXPERIENCE (not THEORY) with this prodedure?

TIA

------------------
John

.

[This message has been edited by JazzMan (edited 04-21-2009).]

Jazzman,

If it is a scam, I'll be the 1st to say so. AND IT MAY BE!!

But how do you explain the DOZENS of videos on YouTube and info on Google of people actually USING these things? How do you explain the guy running his lawnmower COMPLETELY on Hydroxy? Or the guy running his Ford 150 on it? Are they all liars? MAYBE!

But that is why I asked for EXPERIENCE rather than Theory. Frankly, I'd trust some total stranger HERE much more than some total stranger on YouTube. But there seem to be a HECK OF A LOT of total strangers there that APPEAR to be getting pretty good mileage from these devices and MOST of them don't sell them. They made them, themselves. What is their motive for lying? I wish I knew, if there is one.

So again (is everyone getting tired of this?) Does anyone have EXPERIENCE with one of these units IN YOUR FIERO?

TIA

------------------
John

quote Originally posted by THE REAL Fieronut: So again, I ask my question...Does anyone have EXPERIENCE (not THEORY) with this prodedure?

NO.

Buy one and test it! When your EXPERIENCE matches THEORY, you can warn other people!

http://water4gas.com/2books.htm?hop=tdcpub001

Here's a guy that has a meeting of people making, using (and selling) these unit--and he's selling books to make them, so he may have an ulterior motive. But I find it hard to believe that the 40-50 guys who come out every Saturday are part of a giant conspiracy.

BUT MAYBE THEY ARE!

That's why I want FIERO experience.

------------------
John

quote Originally posted by THE REAL Fieronut: Does anyone have EXPERIENCE with one of these units IN YOUR FIERO?

Evidently not. How much does it cost? Probably just enough to make people figure, "oh heck I'll give it a try" And I would bet all 50 or so people you see on YouTube a shills for the scam.

Maybe not, but why don't you buy one and report back with some real world Fiero experience?

I'm familiar with them, and with their theory. Jazzman and others are taking a VERY simplified view of the theory. Am I saying the theory will support it? No, I have not done the calculations, but there are aspects they are ignoring.

The set ups are quite inexpensive to create. I say go for it. I was mulling around testing something like this out, but I have a different, um ... "out there" project I've been trying to find the time to test.

quote Originally posted by THE REAL Fieronut: That's why I want FIERO experience.

It's only $97. You're convinced. Buy it. What's the problem? If you're right, you get to say, "I TOLD YOU SO!" and you get to have a 80mpg fiero. If you're wrong, you lose $97, BUT you can also warn people who might want to buy the same thing. It's win-win. Do it!

I think the fact that you haven't seen anyone with one of these systems, despite $3.50 gasoline and it supposedly paying for itself after a few fillups speaks volumes though.

Oh, one more thing:

quote from the website:SAFETY FIRST: First thing you have to understand is there are NO safety hazards - this system is SAFE. Yes, pure Hydrogen that is dangerous. And it is dangerous to store it in high-pressure tanks. But we do NOT generate Hydrogen, you see, we generate HHO. The presence of Oxygen and water vapor in our system makes HHO very safe! Yes, HHO is a powerful combustible gas. But it's NOT explosive like pure Hydrogen.

Someone doesn't know their chemistry. Pure hydrogen is safe. It's when you mix it with oxygen that it's dangerous. If you make a spark in a bell jar filled with hydrogen gas, you'll be fine. If you make a spark in a bell jar filled with "HHO" gas, and you get glass shrapnel. (don't try either!)



^^^ glass is dangerous. Use plastic if you build it.

[This message has been edited by ryan.hess (edited 04-21-2008).]

Frankly, Jazzman, there are so many THEORETICAL ways to make these little jewels, I wouldn't know where to begin. I keep hoping someone will have at least LOOKED at YouTube and Google and Ebay so they know what these things are and what they PURPORT to do. Theory is fine but ACTION is what I'd like to see. And there really is PLENTY of action online, if we take the time to RESEARCH it.

It seems to me that there is a preponderance of THEORETICIANS here, but very few men of ACTION.

I poo-poo'd the idea when I first saw it. I told the friend who sent me THIS link, (http://water4gas.com/) ..."SCAM!! WON'T WORK!!" But that was before I read MUCH more about it. (And I spent all day Wednesday reading!! ALL DAY!!) Then I changed my mind enough that I wanted to find out the opinions of others, BASED ON EXPERIENCE, not theory.

It appears from the evidence of this thread (and some I put on other forums) ....

1) No one wants to research it enough to have an INFORMED opinion (not just theory) and....
2) No one wants to try it.

Sooooo....I thank you all very much. It appear I WILL have to build one myself. And try it. And if I do, I feel there is no point in posting my findings here. They probably would not be believed because THEORY says these gizmos won't work. MAYBE THEY DON'T!!

But....one way to find out......:-)
------------------
John

[This message has been edited by THE REAL Fieronut (edited 04-21-2008).]

Yeah, glass isn't good for many reasons. Not just explosion, but it's relatively fragile for something in the engine compartment.

Go ahead and try it. And do post about it. I'll be reading

I'm interested too.

------------------
Paul

Pontiac prestiege.... Pontiac performance...... Pontiac POWER!
HHP Is back in business! Now selling Adjustable Sway bars: https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum4/HTML/036556.html
For a full history of the Fiero SS: http://www.cardomain.com/ride/789315

quote Originally posted by THE REAL Fieronut: Sooooo....I thank you all very much. It appear I WILL have to build one myself. And try it. And if I do, I feel there is no point in posting my findings here. They probably would not be believed because THEORY says these gizmos won't work. MAYBE THEY DON'T!! But....one way to find out......:-)

What's stopping you? I don't understand your attitude. You are getting frustrated with the response you are getting here, because we are skeptical. If I spent money on every thing that came along claiming to be the best thing since sliced bread I would be broke. If you are so convinced this is real then by all means try it then report back with some real world Fiero experience and then you have a right to be upset if no one believes you.

1. you need power for electrolyse -> Power comes from the Generator
2. water carries absolutely no , nada , zero , keine ENERGY so you will need energy so seperate water into hydrogen and oxygen
and you will get at possible best conditions the same energy back
3. a well contructed electrolysator generates 5-5,5 ml gas per second ( faraday's laws )
so we take round about 5ml per watt per minute makes 5-5,5 L Gas per minute for 1000watt (66% Hydrogen 33% Oxygen )

now you take a small engine like the 1.6l of an CRX
as 4 Stroke engine we have every 2nd cycle a use of 1.6L . that makes at 800RPM 640L ( i know its a little less but for this calculation we take 100% )

hydrogen is igniteable when reaching 4% Concentration in Air so you would need 25,6L Hydrogen per minute to get the leanest possible ignition for idle condition .
the electrolyse gives you only 66% hydrogen so its looking more and more worse ........
now you have to add the more fuel you need to burn for generating the 1000Watt

then recalculate and see it may have the same effect to fart in your tank and it will save you money

------------------
1984 Fiero Sport
1987 Fiero
1984 Fiero SE
1999 Chrysler Grand Voyager 3.3 LX LPG

*** nuclear winter cures global warming ***

[This message has been edited by Fieromaniac (edited 04-22-2008).]

The first law of thermodynamics states that there is no free lunch.

The second law of thermodynamics states that you can't even break even

"Remember, the easiest person in the world to fool is yourself." -- Richard Feynman, 1964 Nobel laureate in physics

By all means, do the experiment yourself! Then you will know. But be sure to report the results honestly and completely.

[This message has been edited by Marvin McInnis (edited 04-22-2008).]

What was it that P.T. Barnum use to say?

quote Originally posted by Marvin McInnis: The second law of thermodynamics states that you can't even break even

That's what kills me about this device, not only does it run perpetually, but it does useful work in the process!

.

[This message has been edited by JazzMan (edited 04-21-2009).]

I am NOT, repeat NOT saying this stuff works. But the one thing everyone seems to be missing for some reason is that gas engines are horribly wasteful. If you were to spend 1% of the engines power to make it 20% more efficient you would get a net gain, and still abide by the laws of physics. For example, increasing compression: you spend more energy to get the gasses more compressed but you gain net efficiency.

Also, you if you read a little into it the ones that say they are getting better mileage also have water injection and are running lean. The water injection counters the detonation from the leaning.

That in it self is a good example of using energy to make efficiency. The pump uses energy from the alternator but the end result is a gain due to it makeing the engine run more efficient.

Also, what about fuel injection, it uses far more energy than a carb, but gets better gas mileage....

So, if you were to spend 5% of the energy in gasoline to make the engine use 95% of the energy in gas as output, do you thing your MPG would go up? Of course!
Remeber everything was impossible until someone did it. If everyone tried to do everything according to pre-established laws nothing new would ever be concieved.

[This message has been edited by Dracor (edited 04-22-2008).]

quote Originally posted by JazzMan: It's very likely that the videos are being produced by the original seller or the resellers of this scam. We had a guy in the club a few years back that was pushing the gas pills (they were actually just Naptha/mothballs), he swore up and down that they worked, and there were testimonials all over the internet about their success. Problem was that they didn't work, and actually damaged fuel systems. The company pushing these was eventually shut down, but not before tens of thousands of people lost millions of dollars. JazzMan

Nope. From the responses to my original question, tho I'm not trying to put anyone down, it's obvious to me that MOST of the people attempting to answer with THEORY have not watched many (if any) vidoes. Tho there are video "threads" most are from all different people using MAAAANY different systems. Sure they are having fun. But they are NOT videos produced by ANY ONE PERSON or COMPANY. And most of them are NOT ATTEMPTING TO SELL ANYTHING! (Except the idea that THIS DOES WORK!)

They seem to be just as amazed that this thing SEEMS to work as I am. But the difference is that most of them seem to be trying to prove BY EXPERIENCE that it DOES work than trying to prove THEORETICALLY that it does not.

At the link I posted, https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum6/HTML/056080.html mixed in among the hype (HE IS SELLING E- BOOKS) is a statement that 40-50 guys get together very week to talk, theorize and sell parts and info. Is this the start of a GIANT CONSPIRACY? Could be!

The question has been asked, If this is so wonderful, why are the car manufacturers not doing it? The answer is THEY ARE! Again, if you read the hype and watch the videos, you will learn that they ALL ARE.

I mentioned in another thread that this is very much like early autos, planes and computers. Everyone with a garage was doing it. Have you heard anyone RECENTLY say,"Get a horse!"? Or how about, "If man was meant to fly, God would have given him wings!"? There will always be skeptics and frankly I AM SKEPTICAL!

But I gotta tell you, IT SURE SEEMS TO WORK! "50 million Frenchmen can't be wrong!" Well, there aren't 50 million of THESE things---YET!

By the way, the above link to Wikipedia SPECIFICALLY STATES they are NOT talking about a hydrogen car. The are talking about a car that runs ONLY on WATER.

Frankly, I think that is one of the problems here. It's SOOO hard to separate the THEORY, the hype and mis-information from the EXPERIENCE that I feel this thread is going no where. So I'm signing off. Happy flames, guys and gals! ;-)
------------------
John

[This message has been edited by THE REAL Fieronut (edited 04-22-2008).]

.

[This message has been edited by JazzMan (edited 04-21-2009).]

I've watched a couple of the videos. In one of them, the guy was claiming that if the water was bombarded by radio waves modulated at a certain frequency, the harmonics would "shake" the water molecules apart.

That's pure BS. If it were true, then you'd think we would have noticed the effect by now, considering that K-band radio waves (which are right around the resonant frequency of the water molecule) are in common use. Further evidence is as close as your microwave. It emits radio waves that cause a harmonic resonance in the water molecules in your food. But does the water in your food get split into "HHO" gas? No, it doesn't. It just gets hot.

You think these guys are the first ones to build electrolysis machines? They aren't, not by a long shot. Humans have been splitting the water molecule since 1800. It is a very common and widely used technique in many areas of industry. And it has been the subject of serious scientific study for over 200 years. We aren't talking just theory. We're talking actual hands-on experiments.

But hey, if you wanna be another sucker, go for it.

Lets think about this from another angle...

IF you take 100% of the alternator's power, 140 amps @ 13V (approx), that's 1.8kW.

If you put that into electrolysis, lets assume 50% efficient, you get 900W of hydrogen/oxygen out.

Lets say your engine uses 10hp worth of fuel to idle. There is nothing useful coming out of the engine, it is just sustaining it's spin. The reason why hybrids work is they don't idle. If you notice, their city and highway MPG are very close because of this.

Now, your alternator is creating 1.8kw, it probably is taking 2.25kw from the engine (3 hp). So with your electrolysis machine hooked up, you're drawing 13hp worth of fuel. BUT, you're getting back 900w of H2 and O2 that's being fed into the intake. 900w is 1.2hp. 13hp-1.2hp = 11.8hp worth of fuel > the original 10.

Here's my next question....... What if........ You take a jug of hydrochloric acid, run a tube to your intake, and have a metering device drop in zinc pellets? You might be able to sell the resultant zinc chloride to an electroplating shop or something... Or maybe find something to precipitate the zinc back out for reuse. This could get you significant gains in MPG. The cost is going to be the extra "fuels" of zinc and HCl. Is it worth it? I don't know. On the plus side you pay less to the oil sheiks. On the minus side you probably pay more.

If someone could build an adiabatic engine they might have something efficient that works. But someone building a device that violates the known laws of physics better have lots and lots of proof. Not some shaky Utube video.

What about the guys not selling ANYTHING exept the idea that this DOES SEEM to work? What is the advantage to them to be ridiculed by the theorists? None that I can see.

I'm sure there are scammers in this situation just as there were in airplanes and cars and computers. Look at the Selden Patent. This guy NEVER built a car but forced all car manufacturers to pay him a royalty because he had a SO CALLED patent. A COMPLETE SCAMMER! How many different types of airplanes where there before the planes of today came along?

But that doesn't mean that cars or planes were a scam. The problem is differentiating the scammers from the dedicated dreamers who firmly believe in this idea. And who SEEM to be making it work, IN SPITE OF THE DISBELIEVERS AND THEORISTS!

Here is an article worth reading. I have to say it is from a company who wants to SELL you something. But it seems to answer many of the questions about "can't get something for nothing". http://www.thermo1.com/hyboost.htm It's your choice to believe or not but it DOES seem to tell it like it is.

------------------
John

Looks like you REALLY want to be a sucker. Don't let us stop you.

.

[This message has been edited by JazzMan (edited 04-21-2009).]

quote Originally posted by THE REAL Fieronut: Here is an article worth reading. I have to say it is from a company who wants to SELL you something. But it seems to answer many of the questions about "can't get something for nothing".

Okay, I'll bite, lets look at what he says...

"Adding a hydrogen-oxygen mix to the fuel system in an internal combustion engine increases the combustion of the gasoline (or diesel) due to the high volatility/BTU of hydrogen-oxygen mix."

Increases the combustion of the gasoline?? Excuse me but it's already stoichiometrically ideal. how can it get any better?

"This can be compared to putting a super high grade of gasoline in your engine. You get better overall performance, increased horsepower and gas mileage. "

False, Higher grades of gasoline don't improve performance one bit. They allow engines to operate with more advanced timing and higher compression which improves performance but the gasoline itself actually is more difficult to combust.

"Yes, the devices do use electrical power from the engine that is ultimately created by the fossil fuel, but the gain in efficiency of the engine exceeds the energy loss from generating the hydrogen-oxygen mix. "

What part of that does not violate the 1st and 2nd laws of Thermodynamics?

Okay he states it's because:

"The increase in horsepower and gas mileage comes from better combustion of the gasoline, which the hydrogen-oxygen mix helps to achieve. "

False, unless your engine is seriously out of tune you are combusting nearly 100% of the fuel.

"Only about 15% of the available energy in gasoline is converted to mechanical energy in an internal combustion engine. Better combustion means more of the available energy in the gasoline is converted to mechanical energy and that has nothing to do with creating energy or violating any laws of thermodynamics!"

Okay I give up. This shows such a blatant disregard for reality that I can't argue with it.

Buy this crap if you want to, but I'm not going to try and talk you out of it anymore.

quote Originally posted by THE REAL Fieronut: http://www.thermo1.com/hyboost.htm

quote I suspect that the reason people are attacking these systems is because they are either ignorant or they are paid to do so by big oil

I guess it's time to come clean. I was paid off by big oil. So was JazzMan, jscott1, Frizlefrak, fiero go fast, Fieromaniac, Marvin McInnis, mrfiero, Blacktree, and anyone else I may have missed. We're all on big oil's payroll. We were placed here with the sole purpose of giving out misinformation to keep people from trying these HHO generators themselves. You might think a Fiero board would not be a high priority, but you underestimate the power of big oil. We have plants everywhere on the internet. What do you think we do with our trillions of dollars of profit?

quote Originally posted by Blacktree: Looks like you REALLY want to be a sucker. Don't let us stop you.

It may seem that way. But what I really want is to be INFORMED. That is why I'm asking for EXPERIENCE rather than THEORY! It seems obvious to me that most of the people who post to this thread HAVE NOT researched the SYSTEM very much--if at all. I'm sure they know the THEORY, just not the HHO SYSTEM.

And when I first saw the info--I FELT THE SAME WAY! "It CAN'T work. It's a scam!" In the car biz, there was a motto--"Ask the man who owns one." That is EXACTLY what I am attempting to do. But what I seem to be getting is people who HAVE NOT researched it nor even tried to understand it. THAT IS NOT WHAT I ASKED FOR. But that seems to be all I am getting.

The question is NOT, "Does theory say it won't work?" The question is, "Can you show me your EXPERIENCE?" EITHER WAY!!!!!

There seems to be hundreds of people who are doing this RIGHT NOW. Just as there were hundreds of people who put mothballs in their gas tank. But IF you are doing it...SHOW ME YOUR EXPERIENCE. EITHER WAY!!! GOOD OR BAD!!! Is it FRAUD or REALITY?? Does it ACTUALLY work or is everyone pissing into the wind?

So am I a SUCKER for wanting to know the FACTS instead of the THEORY? Well, most people have finally decided that the Earth AIN'T flat. Einstein as a child was thot of as STUPID. Lincoln lost most of his elections. I just want THE FACTS, MA'AM! (Thanx Sergeant Friday!) ;-)

By the way, if people had researched this as much as I have they'd find that, using this system, IF you have FI you must "trick" the oxy sensor into thinking the engine is running rich, to get better mileage, so you are NOT getting the 14.7 to 1 ratio usually burned in the engine. This requires a little gizmoe called and EFIE (ee-fee). Many people who are experimenting with this system are not using this gizmo because they have a carb. These people just don't press so hard on the gas because the hydrogen is taking the place of the gasoline thru the carb. Obviously, if you don't press as hard on the gas, you burn less gasoline. Just as the EFIE makes the computer send less gas to the injectors because it thinks it's running rich. It's obvious to me this research is in its infancy. Just as were planes, cars and computers.

While there are MAAANY people selling these systems, MANY MORE that are making their own, NONE that I have seen has ALL the answers. Each says theirs is the best. But wouldn't YOU? That is the reason I want EXPERIENCE rather than theory.

------------------
John

[This message has been edited by THE REAL Fieronut (edited 04-22-2008).]